Mel and Kazador aren't especially dependent on their casting ability; but Hal won't have a lot to do without some spells at his disposal.
So I think the call on this is Hal's.
So, 10 minutes straight line with speed 30ft. Urban's probably pretty close to straight line.
Minimum time to learn a spell is 15 minutes (though Hal can then do a quarter of his spell levels).
I reread preparation and I guess Hal has the spells he prepared yesterday, which apparently includes teleport. That means he can run away and come back later, potentially taking the group. That's useful enough to justify his presence on a scouting run. He also has a bunch of alchemical weapons that might be useful, and most importantly his sparkling personality and biting wit.
Tangentially, re-read this;
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook...
Emphasis mine
I am assuming this does not apply to Preconstructed Spellbooks, as otherwise their whole schtick would be useless. Maybe it applies to borrowed preconstructed spellbooks? Also makes Hal's ability to steal spells from alchemist books a bit wierd.
Technically, the rules contradict themselves on this point. Later on in the section on replacing a lost spellbook, it says:
A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. [...] If he does not have the spell prepared, he can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook and then write it into a new book.
If you take the phrase "recorded in his own spellbook" literally, then the later rules text for replacing a "lost" one only work if the original spellbook is no longer in their possession, but has not been destroyed. A destroyed spellbook obviously no longer has any spells recorded in it, and so you could never use a borrowed spellbook to re-scribe a spell even if you previously had it recorded.
The other side effect is that you can never learn new spells from looted spellbooks. Transcribing a spell requires you to prepare it and cast it, so if you can't prep spells you don't already know from borrowed spellbooks, then your enemy's most powerful spells are safe from anyone who might take their book.
All of which is clearly barmy, and any GM worth their salt is going to roll their eyes and let you prep spells from any spellbook as long as you pass a suitable Spellcraft check, which will usually be an auto-pass when taking 10.
Hm. There is some variance on that.
I concur that as written it is problematic, but the majority of GM's I had did not let me prep from foreign spellbooks, but always allowed to transcribe the spells therein into my own spellbooks.
(Reasoning being that the spellbook as written uses your own "code/language/runes/..." to enable you to do the spell. While a foreign one makes it hard. Kind of like writing in a coding language you use often versus interpreting code in a different one new to you - you can make sense of it, but...it's a lot more effort. It may get better with time as you learn it, but initially, you will not be good at making things work with that.)
There's a 50/50 chance Hal will make everything worse if he tries for an Aid, so I was staying out of it.
I mean, if you fail an aid another check the worst thing that happens is that there's no +2 bonus.
On a totally unrelated note I took a trait to get Handle Animal as a class skill and put one lonely rank in it for backstory reasons. So I'm happy I got a chance to use that at least once in this game, even if I missed the target by one.
Hu...weird. I was certain there was a penalty involved with failing to aid. But I can't find a reference. Maybe some mental holdover from previous versions?
Regarding YOUR skill check, Mel, I would like to petition the GM for a circumstance bonus. You speak Sylvan. Nelly understands Sylvan(having a point in Linguistics to learn it.)
I understand it's tricky to coordinate with someone elses companion, but you are not exactly in a situation where we are doing rounds for time constraints. So you could speak simple sentences and agree that Nelly does something like raise right paw if she understands, left paw if you need to reword.
As in, I think the +2 circumstance would be justified for having unidirectional language compatibility.
1.: Definitely remind me to stash a reserve pouch with components with Nelly. Just in case. As in, I will do that in the future, stating intent now.
2.: Seeing how Hal is also an arcane caster and the component pouches seem to come with everything needed, could I technically borrow material components from him? Obviously I could not just retrieve them as part of casting a spell, but if given access, could I find, e.g. some shavings of licorice root, then cast Haste on the party?
Huh. Yeah, I could have sworn I read somewhere there was a penalty. Sorry.
Hmm... I didn't realize Nelly actually understands Sylvan. Consider Mel's first handle animal check of the campaign a retroactive success!
Turion: Acknowledge/yes to your two questions.
Thanks for the feedback.
Even IF she studied my spellbooks, for all she knows I could have teleported(also V only) back to Avinoax. Unless she was reading my mind, she could also not have guessed where exactly I would Dimension Door towards, or how exactly I would follow that up. I played the risky game by going straight up and got punished for that.
But unless there was GM Fiat involved, she had a close to 0% chance to re-capture me following triggering my departure if I had done literally anything else.
So she was causing me to leave knowing full well I would then consider her hostile towards me and intend to retrieve my gear forcefully. She can't fool me by trying to "play nice" and resume talking with some b*+#$*#+ explanation about why she did what she did now. She was fully willing to make me an enemy the moment she threw that chakram, because she could not have known what would happen afterwards.
Anything she says after that event is empty words...akin to the "I am not a racist, but....insert racist stereotype here" - way of formulating racist b*+~##&!.
For the record, that is also why I was convinced she intends to kill me. Because it must be clear to her that I would not cooperate with her after that stunt. As said, if I had not messed up by choosing the only direction and event order that would cause this outcome, I would have been gone and hostile to her.
The fact she accepted that, then managed to capture me again immediately meant to me that she'd use the chance to off me and thank her lucky gods.
Right now, Túrion is convinced he is only alive because she wants to learn, by b$#~~#*@tery or torture, about the allies he mentioned that might cause her trouble if they come looking for him, then will be murdered anyway.
(Further reinforced by the fact that she was unwilling to tell him anything about her organization while he had the chance to leave, but now willingly tells him things...because she will kill him anyway and he can't tell anybody else no matter what.)
Which also means, as a logical consequence, that there is no point in pretending to buy her b#*+!@#@ or pretend to be willing to cooperate.
Good to know your thought process. I would just encourage Turion the character to be a little less confident that he can think about what she knows he knows she knows with that much certainty. For example, you might have missed it but there was information available to you to figure out that nearly any dimension door direction that didn't involve a significant amount of elevation gain would have been even worse for you.
Yes I'm ok on taking 20 on disguise when one has a mirror and a lot of time. RAW I think that's correct and also makes sense IC.
Good to know, because then in the future I won't risk rolling for that unless we are in a hurry.
8. Ok I can appreciate the feedback.
Thank, as said, I just wanted to clarify that it was not meant as "whining" of any sort, I just felt railroaded back into the original situation.
3. when she passed at least one message along
Aye, but the orc guards could have said as much when they left. She did not leave to give any detailed instructions or what to expect is what I meant.
Good to know your thought process. I would just encourage Turion the character to be a little less confident that he can think about what she knows he knows she knows with that much certainty. For example, you might have missed it but there was information available to you to figure out that nearly any dimension door direction that didn't involve a significant amount of elevation gain would have been even worse for you.
Any information regarding the height gain, I must have missed, even after reading through again. Even so she could not have been certain that I would be recaptured.
So it's less that Túrion is confident about knowing what she knows what he knows what she knows or other mind games.It's pure spite at this point. Also purely in-character. I mean you negotiate with someone from a nation KNOWN for their value of individual freedom and your go-to is making sure they are chained up for talking and fully at your mercy?
After they already compromise by showing willingness to stay and talk and submit to a spell cast on them?
As you said yourself, she waited for an opportune moment, then decided to bring this situation about, when Túrion did nothing I was aware of to provoke an attack. Does not bode well for her trustworthyness. Before, he was willing to chalk the kidnapping up to a misunderstanding. Now, it's aggravated assault.
As written in the last summary - how she treated him so far does not give him any hope. And he is unwilling to betray his companions to her. THAT is his main motivation right now, protecting Mel, Nelly and the others.
Alrighty. Acknowledged. We'll see how things unfold.
Some clarifications relevant to what's happening with Turion:
Mel, did you share all this info with the group? I assumed you did but am rushing through a bunch of history and I think Turion the player might not be in the loop. I'm not sure if Turion the character should be.
Turion the player is aware, but to my knowledge I always was investigating other aspects and we never aligned on this topic. I was operating under the assumption that Turion the character does not know. If I missed a knowledge transfer you can correct me but I was not being deceptive.
I will investigate as well and withhold my next post until we know if I missed something. Also, as you pointed out, I was staying with Fyrtor until he quit - so there was even more of a split for a while.
As far as I remember it was only ever mentioned when Túrion was not present(such as the last time, after he left towards the brothel for bath and the girl)
My, that's long and long ago at this point. But yes, I absolutely did share that info, in post #4261, where Mel said:
"Finally, there is some kind of organization assisting non-humans in need. I am uncertain whether they are a political resistance of some sort, or if they're focused entirely on -- ah ha! -- inhumanitarian aid."
"Regardless, their leader is a woman named Isabella. I haven't been able to track down a way to get in touch with her. Mr. Mumblethunder saw through my disguise and became alarmed, so I backed off, and all I've been able to learn since is that she recently helped a family of gnomes down near the docks." She frowns. "That's something to note. Don't depend entirely on magical disguises -- they can be seen through if you interact with someone long enough."
Ah, and so yes, you did. Must have slipped my mind, as there was plenty of other information in, before, and after that post.
Túrion had just returned from retrieving that stashed cloak, and was just about to ask Mel on a date, so yeah, there's been plenty of things on his mind.
Not sure if that's enough that I would make the connection, or if that qualifies for the relevant question, but there is something.
I'll let GM be the arbiter of that.
You can make the connection, especially now that there's been some recent IC clarification for Turion.
Yes I did think Mel shared that. But as I was looking back I saw that Turion was surprised when Alexander Mumblethunder mentioned Turion being another disguised elf when Turion wasn't tracking that Mel was the first one the perspicacious bookseller spotted.
GM, I need clarification. Initially, you described the tracks by saying that there's a "fine layer of dust in most of the kitchen that has been disturbed by footsteps and objects getting moved around". Later, you mentioned mud being tracked in. Is it one or the other or both?
If it's mud, does the trail continue outside the building? As initially described I was thinking this was useful only for reconstructing the events that occurred in the building, because obviously the fine layer of dust inside the building would not persist outside. But you seem to be hinting that we might be able to follow a trail of muddy footprints?
Also, why are we spoilering the MHKN parts of this? Nelly is present in that scene, which means Túrion gets to read those, which means that everyone gets to read them. What are we gaining by putting the MHKN bits in spoilers?
No need to spoiler them, true. It just saves visual space but that's not as important as easy readability.
Regarding the mud, this postshould clarify. Survival check to look for mud outside in the somewhat dirty cobblestones. Not the hardest survival check in the books, for sure.
God, I am really sorry to everyone. Life has just...gotten away from me. Finally took a moment to breathe. Got a new car, picked out contractors and finalized plans for basement renovation, redoing floor on first floor, and getting outside of house elderly ready. Inlaws will be coming to the states, and at work hit all of my numbers...everything finally falling into order. Then logged on here and realized that I have 75 unread messages on this campaign. I've really fallen behind, and have not had the best communication. So I really do apoligize for not being here. Just wanted to say that I did not intend to ghost this group. I just had my mind focused on all of the above, and this got away from me.
I mean, it happens. And we've certainly had plenty of slow periods in this game. It just happened to heat up just at the time you were off dealing with real life.
Yeah it does happen. Just try to jump back in, if you can. If you can't, just let us know.
I am definitely not one to complain, sitting in a glass house and all :)
Life happens. That's it.
On the plus side, a good portion of those unread messages will be Túrion and Túrion-specific spoilers, so you can skip right over a good part of those - welcome back and I hope things get better for you.
I should have said - I'm happy for Hal to stick around in the scene, or teleport off, as Mel decides.
I suspect we'll have some sort of agreement in a few posts.
*sigh*
this will be the epitome of "it's complicated" IF I get to tell my side of the story.
Fair warning - without details - that I honestly have no idea how to resolve this or salvage this situation.
Yes there is a definite element of misunderstanding contributing to the other chaos that occurred here. I'm curious to see where things end up.
Please note that my posts may be sporadic this week. I'm interviewing a job candidate Monday, on-boarding three new student employees Tuesday, and running a conference for roughly 200 people Wednesday through Friday.
That is a pity. I can't help reading along and would prefer this situation resolved one way or the other sooner rather than later.
Because not being able to say something makes me genuinely angry.
Not IC, I'm feeling angry OOC.
I completely fail to understand her point in this, her approach to what she is doing now.
I DO to some extent understand that you are not attempting to escalate the situation.
But seeing this casual one-sided re-telling with tea and cookies genuinely evokes negative emotions in me and I'd prefer to get this episode over with.
Not trying to push you, you have a busy week - I hope it won't be too stressful - and thats totally a reason to take it easy, I just needed to vent.
Ok well she was considering letting Turion join the conversation soon so I can hurry that along.
I am back! Life has quieted down alot. Work is well and truly back on track. The worst of the home improvements/fixes have been done. I have some free time again. Just...alot of posts to go through. If it isn't too much of a bother, where exactly are we now and where is Kazador? It would help in figuring out where to jump back in.
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Quick recap:
We finished with Cust. He's in Turick's custody.
We began thinking about ways to investigate Beaumont.
Túrion (alias Janus) went to the brothel to talk to the Madame and possibly get some leads. He didn't come back.
The rest of us went to talk to the Madame and said "Hey, what? Where's Janus?" She reported that Janus attempted to purchase (?) Isabella, one of her workers, who agreed to go with him despite the fact that she was not any sort of bondservant and had no contract etc to buy out.
We did some moderately comedy-of-errors fail-forward tracking, and found evidence suggesting that Janus got clocked over the head and shoved in a pickle barrel. Further sleuthing led us to rumors about an elf falling from the sky wearing nothing but his underwear.
Just then we spotted Alexander Mumblethunder III, the gnomish bookstore owner from much earlier in the Bannerhold arc, headed for a warehouse and muttering about being roped into Isabella's organization despite everything.
We deduced that Isabella-from-the-brothel and Isabella-leader-of-the-non-human-resistance were one and the same. We followed, knocked on the door and asked to talk to Isabella about our friend who seems to be in a pickle.
She let us in and told us that she took Janus for some kind of law enforcement officer or agent of her opposition, intent on breaking her cover as a service worker at the brothel and bringing down her organization. So she captured him, interrogated him, and was trying to figure out what to do next when we came knocking. She claims not to have used torture or lethal methods, but says that Túrion has taken a strong personal dislike to her. I'm a little unclear on whether he threatened to assault her or her organization, but she clearly perceives him as a potential threat.
She seems willing to work with the rest of us, but wants some assurances that we're not going to be a problem, i.e. hurt her or prevent her organization from achieving its goals (chiefly, bettering the lot of non-humans in Iustia, and/or evacuating some to someplace less oppressive to them).
Also, if it would help I can try an animal handling check and some soothing words in Sylvan to help keep Nelly from overreacting.
Could help but I imagine it would be difficult. Nelly's ferocious loyalty has been established many times. Maybe handle animal and Sylvan to get her to wait outside or in another room or something?
Thank you for the excellent summary
You're welcome. Also, good to have you back.
The conference came off very smoothly! We had only a couple of minor flubs that were easily remedied. I am highly pleased. It took a lot of planning and it all paid off.
Finally, an OOC note on my latest post: It's not strictly true that none of Mel's abilities require Ostara's holy symbol. She actually has Light prepared right now, which has a divine focus component. But she's never actually cast it, and I don't think she knows she can.
None of her other spells have a DF component, and neither Healer's Hands nor her Blessings class feature mention holy symbols. Which is a little weird for the Blessings, at least. But I'm hoping that will not count against her for this diplomacy check.
Hmmm. Is it possible to cast Possession in reverse? That is for Hal to pull Turion's mind temporarily into his body?
Otherwise to chat while he's asleep we'd need a mindscape... and I have no idea how to do that!
I suspect the hostage is the best method of going forward, for all it has Hal nervous (Turion could be dead and they're bluffing to get another hostage).
@Mel: glad it went smoothly :)
I just can't bring myself to have Hal do anything even slightly mean to Nelly... even though he's sitting on enough alchemy to zone her out for a week.
That's perfectly fine by me; Mel likes dogs, and by extension other canines, so she'd probably object to drugging Nelly even under these circumstances. Happily, you succeeded on that aid another check, so Nelly gets breakfast instead.
I had quite some things coming up IRL that more or less prevented me from doing much on the boards - I figured it was a good spot to take a step back anyway, only to come back and find you were trying to get me back in.
Also, GM has that right - if Túrion is hurt, restrained, and under guard, Nelly would not take that kindly.
Soothing words or not.
I am also not sure if she would accept being "left behind" like that, and if so, she would definitely keep her guard up, not enjoy the food...(as additionally, she is a walled place, not open nature. Plus it's not something she hunted, but likely already dead, stale meat no longer warm and bloody)
But for the sake of things moving forward, I'll simply roll with that and she can wait a while in the other room.
No need to make things even more complicated.
Sounds good, Turion. I hope things are going ok with you!
Aye, all good. Just been very busy with visitors, a home project and work - and beyond my daily schedules, it would have been possible, but not easy, to find time to check in. If I had read your message earlier, I probably would have attempted to do so, but as said, I was feeling emotions that were not "sparking joy". On one hand it says a lot about what the game means to me that it can evoke those feelings, on the other hand I wanted to take a healthy step back to process things and come back closer to a resolution.
So thanks for asking, but mostly everything should be ok.
Túrion, I'm not clear on the intent of your latest post. Are you:
A) Signing in common but also trying to insert a more subtle message in Sylvan, so that Isabella gets one message and Mel gets a different message?
B) Signing in Sylvan only, to conceal your words from Isabella?
I'm just trying to work out if there are certain words I need to prioritize over others in reading that message.
Right now, signing only in common.
He is looking for words to warn you with in Sylvan, but spelling them out will not quite work.
So far, Túrion has no idea what you talked about or how long he was out again. Being blunt about it is more of a test as to how much Isabella told you.
And his realization that he is unlikely to be able to bluff, which causes him to instead turn to rebellious grandstanding.
Hence the OOC - I'm totally fine with "just talking, no funny stuff" as player, but IC he'd need some more convincing than "hey, we are here, she seems nice, lets talk." Because been there, done that, got burned. Twice. Being fooled a third time seems lethal and undesirable.
As I said, I am not trying to make things extra difficult, but I hope we can get there and I can explain IC, which I do assume(and hope) will explain his hesitation to cooperate.
Just for the record, I'm on it, just didn't have sufficient free time to get the post finished, but I believe I will today.
Turion, I'm not sure how to interpret your last couple of gameplay posts. Are you trying to warn the party to flee immediately? Then maybe just say so and leave it at that or try a bluff check to pass info to them. Currently, it reads like you're trying to convince Isabella that you are right and she is wrong. Wherever this NPC lies on the spectrum from CG , canny zealot leader to CE murderous psychopath, that's just not going to get you very far.
I get it that you hate Isabella and this arc, IC and OOC. But wouldn't making some sort of deal and getting farther away from her suit Turion's agenda rather than undermine it in that case?
I am warning them not to trust her.
IC he has no idea what kind of deal she attempted to work out with them, exactly. Initially he assumed she offered to release him if they did some dirty work for her. Now it seems to be work against the Baron - which was not good enough when he spoke of it earlier(not knowing exactly what she was doing, but it was clearly not sufficient for what she demanded).
His main problem is that she attacked him out of the blue twice, and there are no guarantees of safety or anything for any of the party.
He mainly wants to get that across, so maybe Hal or someone equally paranoid sets up some dead mans switch that exposes her, in case she betrays us and murders us. That would be after the TPK, but at least she'd not get away with it freely.
That said, the reason I hate it, IC/OOC is mostly for 2 reasons:
1.: her attempt to recapture me. As I mentioned, it was either my own stupidity as player, or GM Fiat - if I had played that smart, she should have had no way to recapture me.
Meaning I would be the wildcard out there, and hostile to her as announced because she stole my stuff. I would have tried to locate the party and the chances of peaceful cooperation would have been close to nil at that point.
She can reason that she did not want to reveal sensible information all she wants, but I was there and willing to talk, to answer, to find some common ground.
Instead she attacks me again, and risks having the wildcard out in the wild, and hostile.
It's an intense risk to take, and as said, it should not have worked out for her. I am NOT saying you rail-roaded my back into custody, I accept that I made a tactical mistake trying to streamline things. But if I had done things proper I would have ported diagonally at about a 60° angle at maximum spell range, then calculated the origin point.
Instead I went with a low-altitude entry with readied feather fall. Stupid, in retrospect. But as said, no way she could have KNOWN how I'd get out, so the mere fact she took the chance of me getting away instead of progressing the talks at that point makes him heavily distrust her - because to her, to accept that risk, things must have been "done" at the moment she attempted the attack. Both outcomes must have been acceptable to her.
She also seemingly only learned he was an Elf after they undressed him, meaning initially she could not have known he was from Avinoax, which means he could not have been "useful" in that way, leaving mostly only the "kill" scenario in what she intended originally.
2.: How vastly different she handled things between him and the rest of the party. He is knocked out and abducted, interrogated with death threats and guards, they get invited in for a chat and some breakfast.
To him, she does not even reveal what they do when he is desperately trying to get information so that he could make an informed decision on wether he'd agree to help her, to them, she casually presents the information on a silver plate. This discrepancy makes the situation even weirder. Because as mentioned, she could have hat a friendly chat with him, as well. Aside from the vetting, her disguised adult self could have invited him to some safehouse for a talk - without exposing herself, her organisation, or else. She could have asked leading questions in her young form, or as said ask her associates about Janus.
(or notice the Alabaster business at the brothel herself - the Madame kept things low-key but she was THERE gathering intel-). The fact for him, specifically, she decides that abducting and incarceration is the right approach to pursue a potential alliance is deeply disturbing to him.(but, of course, that was not the intent. The intent was to interrogate and kill, for being some supposed agent or pervert - and if neither was the case, for OPSEC)
I did mention earlier that I had no idea how to resolve this. Basically she shattered whatever trust Túrion could have felt towards her, he is certain that his allies are in grave danger, simply based on how he was handled, and he's in a conflict because while their short-term goals might be aligned with the Baron, that would make him her pawn, and he definitely does not want to be her puppet after all this.
While I do get that she is a proud person, she seems convinced that she handled things perfectly right. She did not admit to any wrongdoing on her part in any way or form. She did not apologize or try to make amends. That is just fuel in the fire, because she feels justified in what she did, to her it's right. There is no self-reflection. He could have been innocent of what she accused him of and she would have murdered him for safety without batting an eyelash. And she does not even consider that maybe her intent was flawed.
Even now, presented with new information or perspectives, she insists that Túrion was somehow creepy towards her(not even considering the validity of his scenarion) - creepy enough to warrant being killed over, or that her attempt to recapture was sophistically calculated somehow instead of blind luck(as in, she does not even acknowledge there was a margin for it to go wrong).
It's not that I want to convince HER of anything, to Túrion it's important that the other party members understand where he's coming from, why he worded things that way or why he did things.
And to be extra cautious in their dealings with her and not just take her words at face value.
As mentioned before, he is not quite sure why he is even alive, still, so warning his allies to caution and potentially getting his legacy right is the most important things right now.
Also, last but possible most importantly: Isabella has made no step towards him. I am not even talking an apology(he is not in a position to demand one) or anything of the sorts. But to his knowledge, she made some deal with the others. He does not feel included, mostly because based on the previous treatment and the additional security features added after his recapture(despite the talks before "going so well"), he doesn't see her releasing him or returning his stuff to him. It's not something on the radar for him.
Because the way he interprets her actions, he would most certainly not go out of his way to capture someone again and bind them to make them angry and hateful, THEN set them free and give them their stuff.
So for him, there is no deal on the table. Not that he would trust her, but also for exactly that reason there will certainly be no suggestion to that end from him - the last time didn't go so well. So he simply has nothing to work with, here.
He believes any kind of deal does not include him, because it doesn't make sense to him, and that he'd possibly be kept alive and used to lure the others back into her lair, for what he assumes must be malevolent reasons.
So yeah, I am just winging it at this point.
And no, I am not actively trying to sabotage things.
But both when deciding to stay and when jumping out, Túrion was not paranoid ENOUGH and made mistakes that lead to this whole mess. So he's extra paranoid now, to make sure at least his allies are safe, if at all possible.
And right now, he feels like he is just a bargaining chip, and does not want to be used to the detriment of people he cares about by someone like her.