Defense of Brookside

Game Master caster4life

Hilariously useful for a 1 sp item. Reduces the usefulness of a disarm caster by a TON! XD

I've had GM ban them in the past. So I usually expect they're banned lol.

I've had GM ban them in the past. So I usually expect they're banned lol.

It's just a rope you tie to your hand. *shrug*

While we're speaking of cheap tricks (in both senses of the phrase), what are some others we can think of to increase our effectiveness?

Question!

Does Deflection bonus add to CMD? If so mine is one higher and I don’t think Kazador is prone.

Been gaming for a few years and this is the first time I’ve cared about CMD..

Man, the more I think about it the more I don't think Fyrtor can bring himself to just pound Kazador with rocks. I know it makes the most sense, but Fyrtor wants so badly to keep everyone safe. Hurting his own allies on purpose is so strongly against his character. Gaah!

Can someone yell at him in character?

I still plan on taking my turn before the orcs, I'm just waiting for turiin to go and to maybe get a verbal kick.

Fyrtor Smithson wrote:

I've had GM ban them in the past. So I usually expect they're banned lol.

It's just a rope you tie to your hand. *shrug*

While we're speaking of cheap tricks (in both senses of the phrase), what are some others we can think of to increase our effectiveness?

Aye, but if you think about it, it makes sense to re-visit them.

I mean, "tie a 2-feet long leather strap to your weapon" => freely use hand and negate any disarm by making weapon retrieval possible.
opposed to: utilize a "mechanically locked metal gauntlet to trap the weapon" - opening which takes a full-round action and negates use of hand for something else - only gives a +10 on CMD and is easily negated by careful aim.
does not exactly seem balanced. Sure the later mostly is designed to prevent being disarmed in the first place, but that can be a penalty by itself by making it impossible to drop the weapon, while the cords have no such drawback.

Hum, that was less impressive than hoped :/

Black Tentacles is no longer as OP as in the old days, but the spell still got a special place in my heart.(btw, I spent another arcane point to up caster level. I had 5 reservoir points after consuming the slot, and 5 spell slots left. Each spell will have a point spent on it).

That said, the Orcs still have to make a decision now. If they stay, they are targets. And I suppose what their darkvision shows them nearby does not look inviting.
(Also, just to re-state: They(Tentacle Spells) already make the area difficult terrain. So if Fyrtor would rather use his greater flaming sphere(also to light up the area for our Archers) and avoid collateral, that's a useful possibility as well)

A greater flaming sphere would be very helpful. Not being able to see them is crippling our effectiveness.

I am traveling today and may not be able to keep as close an eye on the game as usual.

Also, remind me to fetch a Scroll of Stinking Cloud next time we are in civilized lands.

Yeah perhaps it would make more mechanical sense if a disarm attempt has to beat your CMD by 5 or 10 to snap the cord.

But really, being surrounded by mooks can be a big problem for action economy. One can easily cut the cord while the other grabs the weapon and tosses it.

Kazador, are you accounting for the -2 from charging in the surprise round? Because I think that makes the total 29 which is what he hit.

Brolin, yeah go ahead and move Algric. I think the map switch caused somw confusion there.

But he didn’t charge? 60ft flight speed and 60ft Vision. And attacking flat footed so why charge?

Anyways I didn’t know the rules so I’m ok chalking this up to be a learning xp

I don't mind occasionally letting you add bonuses after the fact if it's not too long after. But it's certainly a judgment call.

You did charge in the surprise round. A standard action charge in the surprise round was how you moved and attacked when you can only take a standard action or a move action.

Oh, I see. That makes sense. Well then, all is good. Even with the +1 from the ring he’d still be tripped. Feels better knowing that

Well, pounding the area with gravel may have been a better idea, but Fyrtor feels a lot better about the flaming sphere. The scary part is this is only the vanguard. We are going to be in trouble if we blow all our resources now. At the same time though since Kazador's been disarmed and grappled we have to try to save him... What a mess

Sadly the party can’t. They are on the wall, and to rush out would be suicide. Best to stick with the plan to lay down fire and AOEs.

Kazador’s AC is 27, drops to 23 for prone and 21 for grappled. The Greataxe orcs are going to burn through his HP pretty quickly as well.

So stick with the plan. And I’ll think up a replacement PC that is less suicidally heroic in combat should this go poorly (ie: a half dozen greataxes falling onto him)

Probably a Kineticist. Someone who can do the martial job for the party but whose main role is utility.

Well, on a plus, you are not grappled by the tentacles either. For overall damage output against you it would have been preferable if I rolled higher, but now that we can actually see in the area, our archers can try and pick off those orcs grappling you - giving you a chance to stand and fly away back into safety. They may archer you down but you'd be on our side of the black tentacle wall.

This round, our order prohibited that, with Fyrtor only providing illumination in the last action. I'll make sure to only roll for the tentacles next round AFTER you had a chance to flee from the area, if still possible!

Also of note, as long as we don't all die I should be able to reincarnate Kazador. No need to roll a new character just yet.

Aye. Just don't roll 95-98, or you get to watch him bash his own head in before fetching some more oils.

Not even kidding. In one of my earliest 3.0 campaigns, a co-player was a dwarven cleric who hated elves with a passion. We reincarnated him and he rolled for elf. Looked at us, asked "Are you kidding?" and slit his own throat. Thats dedication.

Reincarnate...? Awesome!

Just make sure we have Restoration ready to cast. 2 negative levels is harsh and would mean *alot* of book keeping.

And please Torag, not a goblin, halfling, Gnome (-2 Str) or Kobold (-4 str). That’d be hilarious but crippling.

Restoration I don't think is something that we can do, but I can only cast reincarnate with 1000gp of oils, so we'll have to be in civilization first. meaning there should be someone who can deal with the negative levels around.

In the future I think investing in the party, "hey a character died" response pack is a good idea.

Ok. So....CMD

10 + 4 (Str) +3 (Dex) + 8 (BaB) +1 (Deflection) = 26

Then at lvl9, if we survive pick up Advanced Defensive Combat Training And Dodge with my bonus feat. This will push CMD up to 32 (33 vs Disarm/Sunder) (36 vs trip/bull rush)

Buy a weapon lock for +10 vs Disarm and a weapon cord (so move action to rearm)

Comes out to be...

CMD32
Sunder33
Trip/Bullrush36
Disarm43

——

This is ok but not good enough. Last round:

Disarm: 1d20+41 (2 to succeed and 10 to break the cord)
Trip: 1d20+23 (13 to succeed)
Grapple: 1d20+11

What other bonuses to CMD can I get? His weapon, if he can get it back is glamered, so it can change shape. So is his armor. Can he change shape so that his hammer and armor are connected, or is that just a locked gauntlet?

Or should I just spend the money for this?

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abi lities/called/

Will be expensive. But if I resign myself to AOO from getting up after trip and losing my acid damage due to calling the weapon back, then this should deal with the issue...?

Not sure how I feel about reincarnate as a GM... party loses funds to reincarnate someone, sort of erasing death, but as a random race that might not make any sense? Kind of dissatisfying by making death less of an interesting, sad, story-driving device and instead an opportunity for less meaningful goofiness... Change my mind. ;)

OH it definietly changes the game. Once there's easy access to revival spells in general the game changes dramatically in feel. death isn't really death anymore.

Reincarnate can be better than say raise dead because it has permanent consequences you can be absolutely nerfed by a bad new form. So you still have extra incentive to not die as compared to having a high level cleric where the only cost of a single death is money.

Generally I like to play below where we are at level wise. I like a more gritty less epic campaign. That said, this has been a lot of fun too.

I recently learned about the E6 or E8 rules sets, and I found looking at those that that really fits how I like to play.

Yeah I'm generally not a fan of resurrection, raise dead, reincarnate, etc as it does take away from the grittiness with is definitely part of the idea of this campaign. Death is real death, unless one finds a way to PREVENT it or reverse it quick, like breath of life. I'm leaning toward this being a general policy in my games where the only exceptions occur if a deity intervenes and provides the power for a spell like resurrection, etc. Would you guys be upset if I made that a policy here? Let me hear your opinions before I make up my mind.

I'm fine with that, but it does have ramifications that should be considered.

I believe that the ability to undo death is considered to be pretty common for most high level play and the threats faced by high level characters are usually set up with this in mind. There are a lot of ways to kill a character very quickly as the spells and monsters ramp up in power. This is normally offset by the ability to undo those. If we remove that undo button you as a GM should keep in mind that we don't have that ability and so be extra careful not to use things that could end a character prematurely.

Ok that's it, said my piece :) I'll be happy either way.

It’s a very different gaming world. Where death goes from mourning to “I...guess I’m a kobold now.” It’s much more light hearted.

Im totally alright with mourning the loss of a wonderful character and making a Kineticist replacement.

There's always these guys. For those guys overdoing it, or turning it into a gamble.

Regular Raise Dead/Resurrection does not bypass the end of regular mortal lifespan, so they likely incur a smaller penalty than reincarnation(at a higher base price).

That said, I am fine with mutual disarnament.
If our enemies get finger of death and disintegrate to play with, those tools are needed, because instant-death just becomes a way to remove a character from the current conflict - high level play assumes they can be brought back, but it's a semi-permanent removal for the current battle(unlike a lot of other options that could be dispelled, or immunities gained against(Freedom of Movement anyone?)).

Otherwise, it simply turns into a game that is less fun. The longer a character survives, the more involved one is. The higher the level, the more work to create a believable persona. Much like Mel said, it would be hard to replace her with someone that feels 'right'.

But basic game design adds rocket-tag options to high-level play. If we can't undo those, balance stops working. At the same time, they are necessary tools for us to face the Challenges set before us.

Hero Points "spend 2 points to evade death" as a plot device works nicely to somewhat counter random deaths while still making players wary, not wanting to lose that insurance. But that no longer holds true if a high level guy with a metamagic rod of maximize slings disintegrates in your face.
And I'm not a big fan of replacing the character twice per level - it becomes a mechanics thing, not a character thing.
No offense, but Kazador provides an example...the Kineticist. Not Algric, or another Dwarf that may have holed up...the first thought is not WHO, but rather WHAT to play. I fall into the same pattern, no offense meant :)

That said: Fyrtor, if you decide to run/GM a game with E6 or E8 rules, do tell. I wanted to try those rules out as well, but never got around to it.

Well...yeah, it is a what not a who. As can be seen from Kazador I like stacking bonuses and having something useful mechanically. While it would make sense to just keep going with Algric, he is under leveled with an NPC class. That would be less than fun for me (though I know other players would like the ‘challenge’)

That and it takes awhile for me to get the “feel” for a character. Much of Kazador came from playing him. If he dies it will take while for me to get the “feel” for a new character. So to keep me excited I think of the mechanics

What I would love is an elven Kineticist with earth and water elements. A nature wizard who can at-will shape the elements, heal the party, and throw ice / stone at his foes. It is just too bad that elves get a con penalty and the only int based Kineticist has to be evil

@ Turion

I've been considering running a game, but I don't think I have enough experience to do it too well, and then there's also the time commitment. Running a game take so much more time than playing one.

I am very grateful to those who do have the time and experience to run games and are willing to do so.

I have never played an E6 or E8 game, but I spent some time reading the rules. The goals of the rulesets focus a lot of gritty play which is what I like. It does have some interesting effects though.

Since some classes take a long time to come into their own and so don't work well vs others that are more front-loaded. One good thing about it is that the martial/caster disparity isn't so bad, but it does make a low level caster more of your playtime which can be hard.

Re undoing death: I'm not opposed to it altogether, mind you. Just ways that are so post-hoc. If you have a scroll of breath of life on you, good for you. But to lug someone about for a while and cast reincarnate or what have you... Not the same. So how about I say "no" to reincarnate. If you want to raise dead or resurrect someone, you can try but there's no guarantee you'll find a willing cleric of sufficient level or a scroll.

Re insta-death: No I don't like rocket tag. I don't plan to use save-or-die effects against PCs, unless a fireball counts. So I think things will be balanced anyhow. My goal is to balance encounters such that you are challenged often (not necessarily every fight) but generally have the ability to avoid or retreat from death. I only expect PCs to die if they are extremely unlucky or have made choices that endangered them a lot.

Actually...for the story. If Kazador bites it what I’d likely do.

Greenskin Orc Kineticist from the tribe we are trying to help. Easiest to get back into the game that way.

Of course I don’t want Kazador to die. Love his character and it would be really sad for him to go out like this. But if that is how the dice fall then that is the story we tell.

Hmmmm, if reincarnate doesn't exist in our setting (which I'm generally fine with) can we say that druids get access to breath of life in it's place?

We could leave raise dead off and resurrection showing that truly bringing back the dead is the purview of the Gods and their servants, but druids can channel their connection to life to keep a soul from moving on if they can get there quickly enough.

@Kazador: I wonder...do you WANT to switch to Kineticist?

I thought the plan was for our Archers+Flaming Sphere to pick off those guys holding you down, so that you could get up and regroup with us, get a backup weapon or something?
If you simply keep hitting with your Gauntlet, your turn is over. You are prone in the tentacle-area and more orcs can come at you during the enemy turn even if we pick of those who are there...

All that was needed was to not act inmediately and let the archers go first, then re-assess the situation? You can still punch the guys next to you if they are still up after Brolin, Kelian, Mel, Algric and Fyrtor unleashed their wrath on them...

Heh...I don’t. But when a character I like faces death, I cope by psyching myself up for a replacement (and I enjoy making characters). That way rather than feeling bummed, it instead stays fun. I’d much rather Kazador reach the vault and then explore the story line to it’s conclusion

——

As for punching, what else can I do? They’re dragging him which means that he can’t wothdraw. Thought the GM said before that he can’t get away? So I thought that was his only option...

Heh...I don’t. But when a character I like faces death, I cope by psyching myself up for a replacement (and I enjoy making characters). That way rather than feeling bummed, it instead stays fun. I’d much rather Kazador reach the vault and then explore the story line to it’s conclusion

——

As for punching, what else can I do? They’re dragging him which means that he can’t wothdraw. Thought the GM said before that he can’t get away? So I thought that was his only option...

I think Turion meant that you should wait to take your turn until after we've done what we can to free you.

Edit: Personally I'm waiting to see if the orcs fall to the archers before moving the sphere and possibly pounding you and the orcs with gravel vortex.

Oh...right. Sorry...

Exactly. By posting first, you limit your options to simply punching.

We have 4 people with bows on the walls that now have vision of you, and one with a flaming ball of burnage.
Plus one more caster with magic missiles left if needed.

Chances are we can take down the two mooks next to you during our actions.

If you wait for that before taking your action, you could then do a variety of things, including standing up and flying to the wall to fetch Algrics melee weapon before going to retrieve yours.

EDIT: Also sorry for being so obnoxious about it :)
When a character is in danger of death, I tend to analyze options to prevent that and you posting actions first kinda threw a wrench into most scenarios that played out in my mind :) Maybe GM kindly lets us assume your post is last in initative(except Túrion) and you may not find any targets(but keeping the rolls for actions that may need them).

Oh...right. Sorry...

You're not the only one who's made their actions less than they could have been. If I'd just cast flaming sphere at the beginning of the team's turn instead of at the end it would have changed things quite a bit... :(

@Fyrtor: I think that kind of thing is actually adding to the game. Both you and Túrion are relatively new additions. It makes sense they are not familiar with tactics and may make suboptimal solutions. 22 Int give me an excuse to be overly analytical regarding the tactical situation but I liked that Fyrtor hesitated even if it was detrimental to our overall performance. That's roleplay, rather than roll-play. Now lets get that Dwarf out of there! :)

Amen!

Algric, don't forget the Brolin aura bonuses. What did we decide they were? +4 to hit and damage for those within 30ft?

Forgot last round, but this time added +2. Isn’t that what gm said it was?

Kazador, you can fly away as soon as the grapple is broken. It's weird but I don't think you need to stand to fly away. Does anyone know of a rule on this?

Brolin grants +4/+4. I'm ruling he can't grant his seance boon (+2 damage) because that requires you to have spent an hour today communing with the spirits with him. I haven't seen anybody doing that so....

Kineticist talk: Let's hold off on that until we're done with this battle. We'll see how it goes.

Yes, Kazador can wait on those punches. If he ends up still grappled, I'll keep the same rolls.

Fyrtor: No free breath of life but it's not that hard to get a reach breath of life scroll, especially with the party funds you guys have lying about.

Fyrtor: No free breath of life but it's not that hard to get a reach breath of life scroll, especially with the party funds you guys have lying about.

If that's the case so be it, I'll be ok. Mostly I was hoping for something in place of reincarnate since that's the druid's version of these spells that we are removing.

The problem with the scroll is no one has breath of life on a spell list so no one can use the scroll without a UMD check. (Except maybe Brolin while in heirophant? I'm not sure if he counts as a cleric for item usage or not...)

Yep. UMD would be required. Idk about Brolin. Nobody ever does. XD

For breadth of life it only works if used within 1 round of death, and taking a scroll out is a move action. Then standard DC29 UMD to use it. Will be a pretty clutch roll. While death sucks that is a lot of conditions to save against it. And as a lvl5 scroll it isn’t cheap (4K gold)

Might want to put the gold into better defenses so we don’t die in the first place. Healing potions for example might be more useful, given conditions on when it can be used and difficulty in using it.

I would expect the rules on that to be slightly relaxed if other ways of returning to live are out.

There's this basic chart of how important first aid is, in that every minute that passes survial chance drops off by 10% if CPR is not started.
I would assume a heal check could 'stall' death off, by basically keeping the person going until pulled back into positives.
The Scroll should also probably work fine during the first 10 rounds(much like defibrillation), then suffer a chance to fail that increases each minute.
(My UMD is 13...with a goal of 29 I need a 16 or higher on the roll...so a good chance someone may need to try longer than a few rounds...)

Another house-rule I often saw combined with no resurrection was that the default death threeshold was double con negatives, or 10+Con or 2*level+Con negative HP.
So as damage values and HP pools increase, there's some more leeway of simply being knocked out or into bleeding out, rather than outright killed.
That is simply sensible...at Level 1 you usually don't face something that can deal 30 damage in a single blow - so extending that 'dying' buffer to a higher negative value is a logical consequence of removing the 'counter' for death...higher level characters are more prone to suffer death from a lucky hit than lower level ones(where a crit is often needed) - without a way back they should have a larger buffer to compensate for the higher damage potential of their opponents.

@Brolin: He would need to pick it as the daily spell for it to get added to his casting list. So he would still need UMD I believe.

Yes those are good house rules. From now on, we'll have 2*level + con negative HP as the threshold for death. Also, breath of life can work up to a minute after someone has passed our new threshold but they keep losing 1 hp per round during those 10 rounds, which might put them past where breath of life can help.