DM Caleth's Immortals (Inactive)

Game Master Saint Caleth

For the greatest of heroes, death need not be the end. A select few are reincarnated, and must discover why they have returned and if there are others like them out among the planes...


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Scientists and Philosophers alike say that there are many worlds, each of which is slightly different from all others. Over the countless eons, some of these worlds have risen to prominence as names out of legend, from the intrigues of the Old World to the splendor of Vashaal to the empire of the Darravi. For the greatest of heroes from these worlds, it is said that death is not the end and they are reincarnated to wander the planes forever...

It seemed that people were very interested in me running an interplanar game, and I am happy to oblige. The setting is essentially an infinite number of Material Planes all floating around in the Astral Plane with the Traditional Outer/Inner Planes mostly blocked off. Each Plane is essentially its own mini-setting, but can communicate to varying extents with the rest of the multiverse. Expect a very well fleshed out world with lots of history and interconnections. Accordingly you have a huge amount of latitude in character creation, since absolutely anything that you can imagine can have a place somewhere in the infinite planes. This game will reward exploration of and engaging with the setting; expect plenty of RP and social encounters along with the combat.

Some Notes on Character Creation:


  • Characters start at level 7. Start at level 6 if you want to play a 20 point race and 5 for a 30 point race.
  • Generate Abilities by rolling 4d6 drop lowest. If your rolls are less than a 20 point buy you may add points to bring your total point buy up to 20 as per standard pathfinder point buy.
  • Any material in the PFSRD is acceptable. If you want to use something from 3.5, ask me. I usually say yes. I also have posted some races and gods you might encounter in this setting here which you can use if you want. More homebrew material for you to use will be added as you encounter it. If you really want to make a race from the Advanced Race Guide Playtest we can talk about that too.
  • Each character will start with three pieces of equipment which can each be worth up to 1/4 of the appropriate WBL.
  • Each character will start with two traits, in addition to a minor, negative trait related to the next point.
  • Early Firearms exist, but no advanced firearms.
  • At least a few ranks in Knowledge(History), Knowledge(Planes) and/or Linguistics will probably come in very useful.
  • The story begins after your character's death. Accordingly your backstory should end with you dying. You will receive a minor penalty related to the way in which you died.
  • Each Character knows the Common language of their home plane as well as the appropriate bonus languages. Generally each Plane has its own language, in addition to racial languages. There is also Planar Standard which is a language to facilitate trade between worlds, which is the "native language" of the Astral Plane. It is very conceivable that you could come up against a language barrier at some point.
  • I am not a huge fan of psionics, although I am not going to ban it outright.

I will announce 36 hours before I end recruitment, which will depend largely on how quickly character submissions come in. This is the perfect setting for very inventive characters. If you have a concept it is my job as DM to help create a place for it in the world. Above all, I reward characters with well thought out stories, and players who are willing to explore the setting and integrate their characters with the world.


Nice. Dotting, will submit a character later on.

EDIT: Rollin...

4d6 ⇒ (5, 4, 3, 3) = 15=12
4d6 ⇒ (2, 4, 3, 3) = 12=10
4d6 ⇒ (1, 3, 6, 2) = 12=11
4d6 ⇒ (3, 6, 5, 2) = 16=14
4d6 ⇒ (2, 3, 4, 4) = 13=11
4d6 ⇒ (5, 6, 3, 3) = 17=14

I'm 6 point short. Can I just use vanilla 20 point buy? I hate stat rolling.


Rolling for stats for a Tiefling Witch I'll be writing up for submission.

4d6 ⇒ (6, 6, 3, 1) = 16 = 15
4d6 ⇒ (1, 1, 3, 6) = 11 = 10
4d6 ⇒ (2, 5, 6, 4) = 17 = 15
4d6 ⇒ (4, 3, 1, 5) = 13 = 12
4d6 ⇒ (1, 1, 6, 4) = 12 = 11
4d6 ⇒ (2, 2, 3, 2) = 9 = 7

Silver Crusade

Getting the stat rolling out of the way.

4d6 ⇒ (2, 3, 6, 3) = 14 12
4d6 ⇒ (6, 3, 6, 3) = 18 15
4d6 ⇒ (3, 5, 2, 5) = 15 13
4d6 ⇒ (1, 3, 6, 1) = 11 10
4d6 ⇒ (3, 5, 5, 5) = 18 15
4d6 ⇒ (1, 3, 5, 2) = 11 10

lesse, that's 19 points. Have to put 1 more in somewhere.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'm not sure what I what to play just yet so I'm going to let the dice give me an idea.

STR:4d6 ⇒ (4, 1, 2, 3) = 10=9
DEX4d6 ⇒ (5, 2, 5, 5) = 17=15
CON4d6 ⇒ (1, 1, 1, 4) = 7=6
INT4d6 ⇒ (6, 4, 6, 4) = 20=16
WIS4d6 ⇒ (4, 3, 1, 1) = 9=8
CHA4d6 ⇒ (4, 5, 3, 6) = 18=15

Edit: And I now regret my actions, so I will propably move some of thouse around. I have no idea what the point value of a 6 is, so I'm assuming it's -4 until otherwise informed. That would me have a 18 point buy so I need to add two in somewhere.


Dotting, character coming up soon.


Rolling to dot for interest.

4d6 ⇒ (2, 2, 5, 6) = 15 13
4d6 ⇒ (3, 1, 5, 2) = 11 10
4d6 ⇒ (4, 3, 3, 1) = 11 10
4d6 ⇒ (6, 6, 4, 4) = 20 16
4d6 ⇒ (5, 5, 6, 1) = 17 16
4d6 ⇒ (2, 4, 5, 6) = 17 15

30 point buy! Nice!

I have a thought for a 10-RP-reduced frost giant barbarian, making it a 30 RP monster. Eliminating the advanced Wisdom and the Improved Natural Armour should do it.


Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Rolling for interest.

4d6 ⇒ (1, 4, 1, 2) = 8
4d6 ⇒ (2, 5, 3, 1) = 11
4d6 ⇒ (1, 2, 6, 6) = 15
4d6 ⇒ (6, 6, 1, 2) = 15
4d6 ⇒ (3, 4, 1, 5) = 13
4d6 ⇒ (2, 5, 4, 6) = 17

I'm thinking about a Drow Noble Magus. Please let me know if this holds any problems for you and would that make me a level 6 then?


Pixel Cube wrote:
I'm 6 point short. Can I just use vanilla 20 point buy? I hate stat rolling.

You can point buy if you really want to, I guess I am just old school in that I ask for rolled stats.

Joshua Hirtz wrote:
I'm thinking about a Drow Noble Magus. Please let me know if this holds any problems for you and would that make me a level 6 then?

Drow Noble is perfectly fine and yes, would start at level 6


I think I'll keep the stats I rolled and make my tiefling witch at level 7 rather than add points to her. I'll start building her sheet behind this alias.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I think I'll make a Hobgoblin gunslinger. I'll write up the character as soon as I can.


Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I'm still working out the background and everything, but I'm thinking of a Bladebound Kensai Magus who's chosen weapon is a Wakizashi. He worships Azrael and perhaps got his blade through him.

What I need is to work out the blade's purpose with you. I'm thinking it is to send his enemies' souls to Azrael and for some reason or another, he tried going against this cause at one point and it cost him his life.


Hey Caleth, how do you feel about multiclassing? Right now I'd like to go for an Ifrit Monk/Sorceror. If you don't allow that, I think I'll have to chose which class flipping a coin, cause I'd love to play both.

Would a Ifrit be considered the same power level as standard races? Do we get the additional stat point at 4th level in addition to 20 point buy?


Do we all have the WBL of a level 7 character, regardless of starting at levels 5 or 6 for advanced monsters?


Pixel Cube wrote:

Hey Caleth, how do you feel about multiclassing? Right now I'd like to go for an Ifrit Monk/Sorceror. If you don't allow that, I think I'll have to chose which class flipping a coin, cause I'd love to play both.

Would a Ifrit be considered the same power level as standard races? Do we get the additional stat point at 4th level in addition to 20 point buy?

Multiclassing is completely ok and Ifrit count as a standard race. You would get the stat upgrade, just like all the other benefits of gaining a level.

Nazard wrote:
Do we all have the WBL of a level 7 character, regardless of starting at levels 5 or 6 for advanced monsters?

I will think about this and get back to you.

Joshua Hirtz wrote:


What I need is to work out the blade's purpose with you. I'm thinking it is to send his enemies' souls to Azrael and for some reason or another, he tried going against this cause at one point and it cost him his life.

This sounds great. Did you want the blade's purpose and your transgression to be known by your character or essentially unknown? Either way I have some suggestions.


Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I'm up to suggestions here. I could see it going a few different ways.

1. He knows the general purpose of the blade is to send souls to Azrael, but not why.
2. He receives contracts through the blade to kill specific people for Azrael.

These two seem to be the best I can think of at the moment. I think I like the second a bit better as it could have lead to the conflict which cost him life very easily.

As for the starting equipment, does that mean we will start with only three items (Perhaps four with my blade)?


May I play a Black Blooded Oracle? Just checking before I start making one.

4d6 ⇒ (6, 1, 5, 4) = 16 15
4d6 ⇒ (5, 5, 1, 3) = 14 13
4d6 ⇒ (6, 4, 5, 3) = 18 15
4d6 ⇒ (1, 3, 1, 4) = 9 8
4d6 ⇒ (1, 6, 2, 1) = 10 9
4d6 ⇒ (2, 2, 5, 5) = 14 12


Rolling stats for Bale, Niemal of the Ferret (Halfling Barbarian).

4d6 ⇒ (2, 3, 6, 4) = 15=13 (3pts)
4d6 ⇒ (4, 3, 1, 6) = 14=13 (3pts)
4d6 ⇒ (6, 4, 4, 1) = 15=14 (5pts)
4d6 ⇒ (6, 1, 2, 1) = 10=9 (-1pt)
4d6 ⇒ (1, 2, 6, 6) = 15=14 (5pts)
4d6 ⇒ (5, 2, 6, 1) = 14=13 (3pts)

Total = 18 pts. Adjusting to 20, adding racial and 4th level bumps:

Str 12
Dex 18
Con 13
Int 9
Wis 13
Cha 15

Man, that's just the opposite of min-maxed.
Also, would you consider the whirling frenzy barbarian (UA, p66)? It's not neccessary, but it'd be nice.


Also, what's the rule for HP. Roll it or use averages?


Kip84 here, I'm thinking a dwarf fighter though j may multiclass
Stat rolls:
4d6 ⇒ (1, 4, 1, 1) = 7 6 -5 points
4d6 ⇒ (3, 3, 3, 4) = 13 10 0 points
4d6 ⇒ (1, 3, 1, 6) = 11 10 0 points
4d6 ⇒ (4, 1, 1, 6) = 12 11 1 point
4d6 ⇒ (6, 5, 5, 1) = 17 16 10 points
4d6 ⇒ (6, 4, 5, 2) = 17 15 7 points

Adjustment to 20 point buy

8. -2 point
10.
10.
12. 2 points
17. 13 points
15. 7 points

Str 17 becomes 18 at 4th lvl
Dex 10
Con 15 becomes 17 (Racial bonus)
Int 12
Wis 10 becomes 12 (Racial bonus)
Cha 8 becomes 6 (Racial)


4d6 ⇒ (5, 5, 1, 4) = 15 14
4d6 ⇒ (6, 3, 3, 4) = 16 13
4d6 ⇒ (6, 2, 5, 2) = 15 13
4d6 ⇒ (3, 2, 5, 6) = 16 14
4d6 ⇒ (2, 6, 2, 1) = 11 10
4d6 ⇒ (5, 5, 5, 3) = 18 16

Not quite what I had in mind for a Dwarven Grappler, still an armoured ball of fury, but he will now be better rounded.

Character name and background to come.

The Exchange

4d6 ⇒ (6, 1, 6, 5) = 18=> 17
4d6 ⇒ (6, 2, 6, 1) = 15=> 14
4d6 ⇒ (5, 6, 2, 5) = 18=> 16
4d6 ⇒ (1, 3, 3, 6) = 13=> 12
4d6 ⇒ (4, 4, 3, 6) = 17=> 14
4d6 ⇒ (4, 6, 6, 6) = 22=> 18

Not too bad. I'll figure something out.

Edit: How do you feel about homebrew stuff other than yours?

Edit 2: Nevermind, I'll figure something out.


Pixel Cube here, here's my character chrunch so you can take a look. Background and traits soon to follow.


Do declare me mad, but I'm actually considering a Goblin Bard. Would you allow me a High Goblin or do I take the "normal" one?

4d6 ⇒ (6, 4, 3, 5) = 18 -> 15
4d6 ⇒ (6, 6, 5, 1) = 18 -> 17
4d6 ⇒ (1, 3, 3, 4) = 11 -> 10
4d6 ⇒ (3, 4, 2, 1) = 10 -> 9
4d6 ⇒ (1, 3, 1, 4) = 9 -> 8
4d6 ⇒ (3, 1, 1, 3) = 8 -> 7

Ouch... These stats hurt. Ah well, will figure something out.

The Exchange

@Raging Bull: you can bring them up to a 20 point buy.

@Caleth: Would you mind if I took both Bladebound and staff Magus, using a Staff instead of a bladed weapon for the Black Blade class feature?

Edit: Also, would you allow one of the Variant Tiefling Abilities and Heritages from the Council of Thieves: The Bastards of Erebus?


The OberonViking proudly presents The Diplomat of the Kre-akke People, Ambassador Krippler.

Unfortunately, he died on a diplomatic mission to Andoran over a month ago, bull-rushed off a cliff by giants whilst travelling through the Pass of Shadows.

In battle he specialised in Trip, Grapple and the Unarmed Strike.
During negotiations he specialised in Intimidate, Grapple and the Unarmed Strike.


Here is my submission. All that needs added to it is equipment which I'll get to shortly.


Recycling a character from a failed campaign, dotting and rolling for interest.

4d6 ⇒ (4, 2, 5, 2) = 13 11 (1 point)
4d6 ⇒ (2, 2, 2, 5) = 11 9 (ugh. Add 1 at Level 4 to get 10.) (-1 points)
4d6 ⇒ (6, 1, 6, 2) = 15 14 (5 points)
4d6 ⇒ (2, 6, 4, 5) = 17 15 (7 points)
4d6 ⇒ (6, 1, 5, 2) = 14 13 (3 points)
4d6 ⇒ (6, 6, 3, 1) = 16 15 (7 points) equals 22 points, viable for Level 7; WBL = 23,500 gp, 3 items may be worth 25% (5,875 gp)

Choosing an Elan Psion Nomad Elocator from Dreamscarred Press. Andrezi will be your party Transporter via Astral Caravan and psionic tattoos of Astral Traveler. (Gate being so high-level and expensive.)

Give me a few hours to make up his character sheet and backstory. I am very interested to join and see who makes up this team.


Stat Rolls:
4d6 ⇒ (3, 6, 5, 2) = 16 - 14 (5 Points)
4d6 ⇒ (2, 6, 1, 1) = 10 - 9 (-1 Points)
4d6 ⇒ (1, 4, 2, 4) = 11 - 10 (0 Points)
4d6 ⇒ (2, 6, 6, 4) = 18 - 16 (10 Points)
4d6 ⇒ (4, 3, 5, 3) = 15 - 12 (2 Points)
4d6 ⇒ (2, 6, 1, 1) = 10 - 9 (-1 Points)

15 Points total from roll. Gonna bump the 9's to 10's and raise the 12 to a 14.

Final Scores

16
14
14
10
10
10

Fred the Bounty Hunter

Fire Elemental:
Fire elemental from page 23 of the Advanced Races playtest. It's a 30 RP race so starting at level 5.

elemental, fire
Type Outsider (native, fire) 2 RP
Size Medium 0 RP
Speed Normal 0 RP
Ability Score Modifiers Greater paragon (+2 Str, +4 Dex, –2 Int) –1 RP
Languages Xenophobic 0 RP
Racial Abilities
Darkvision 60 ft. — RP
Advanced Constitution (+2) 4 RP
Advanced Strength (+2) 4 RP
Elemental immunity (fire) 4 RP
Elemental weapons (fire) 6 RP
Fast (+20 feet) 2 RP
Improved natural armor (+2) 2 RP
Natural armor 2 RP
Natural attack (slam) 1 RP
Nimble attacks 2 RP
Quick reactions 2 RP
Total RP: 30

  • +4 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence
  • Large: Fire Elementals are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
  • Really Fast: Fire Elementals have a base speed of 50 feet.
  • Fire Stuff: Fire Elementals are immune to fire damage and deal 1d6 fire damage whenever they strike a foe with a natural attack, unarmed strike, or melee weapon.
  • Darkvision: Fire Elementals can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
  • Nimble Attacks: Fire Elementals receive Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.
  • Quick Reactions: Fire Elementals receive Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.
  • Natural Armor: Fire Elementals get a +4 natural armor bonus.
  • Natural Weapon: Fire Elementals possess a natural slam attack that inflicts 1d4 points of damage on a successful hit.
  • Languages: Fire Elementals begin play speaking Ingan.


DM Caleth, are the three items all we start with or can we spend some gold on mundane and masterwork items?


Azten wrote:
May I play a Black Blooded Oracle? Just checking before I start making one.

Black Blooded Oracle is fine. I even have an idea on how to work the black blood into the setting.

ajkkjjk52 wrote:
Also, what's the rule for HP. Roll it or use averages?

Roll please. If you roll multiple 1s in a row, we can talk though.

Edgar Lamoureux wrote:


@Caleth: Would you mind if I took both Bladebound and staff Magus, using a Staff instead of a bladed weapon for the Black Blade class feature?

Edit: Also, would you allow one of the Variant Tiefling Abilities and Heritages from the Council of Thieves: The Bastards of Erebus?

The only problem with allowing a Bladebound/Stadd Magus is that when you get the black blade in staff form, you are essentially getting two wepons for free instead of one, since a quarterstaff has two ends. It would say that if you do that, only one end o your staff would count as the black blade.

If you direct me to the variant tieflings I will take a look.

Drakr wrote:


DM Caleth, are the three items all we start with or can we spend some gold on mundane and masterwork items?

You start with only the tree items, since you begin with your characters being resurrected on a distant plane. Thus you only have the few items which are most integral to you.


Joshua Hirtz wrote:

I'm up to suggestions here. I could see it going a few different ways.

1. He knows the general purpose of the blade is to send souls to Azrael, but not why.
2. He receives contracts through the blade to kill specific people for Azrael.

These two seem to be the best I can think of at the moment. I think I like the second a bit better as it could have lead to the conflict which cost him life very easily.

As for the starting equipment, does that mean we will start with only three items (Perhaps four with my blade)?

I have an excellent idea for number 2, to work that story into something about the setting that starts out as a spoiler. Sorry if that is painfully vague. You would get three purchased items, since the sword is strictly speaking a class feature.


DM Caleth wrote:
You start with only the three items, since you begin with your characters being resurrected on a distant plane. Thus you only have the few items which are most integral to you.

Argh. Re-doing the equipment list to reflect that ruling. More questions, because I desire to play an Elan Psion with a psicrystal and a body full of psionic tattoos:

1.) I'll go ahead and count the psicrystal as one of my three items
2.) Do I get to keep the tattoos on my body?
3.) I'm guessing a filled-to-bursting Handy Haversack is against the "spirit" of the three items. :)

HP: 6d6 + 6 ⇒ (6, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5) + 6 = 35 + 1d8 + 1 ⇒ (2) + 1 = 3 = 38 for a 7th Level character. Lousy.

Edit: the other problem is my character has the psionic power Call Item, which lets him "borrow" anything off the equipment list, given a 10/100/1000 gp limit. Is this against the rules, or just a lucky quirk for my character? Will you allow it?


I'll roll up HP then.
6d10 + 24 ⇒ (8, 3, 10, 8, 8, 4) + 24 = 65


I'm curiously interested, but I want to come up with something a little different than the norm. After all this is a sort of anything goes game.

Actually, hmmm...ideas are forming...how do you feel about 3PP stuff not on the PFSRD??.


Give me a reference to 3PP stuff which is not on the PFSRD and I will take a look.

The Exchange

Only the one side being enchanted is fine. Variant Tiefling abilities can be found here, while the alternate Heritages can be found here, mid-page The site isn't official, although all of the information on it is.


DM Caleth, I'm using OGC SRD online, which has all of the first Dreamscarred Press' Psionics Unleashed in it. I have also bought the PDF version of the book.

Elans
Psions
Prestige Class - Elocator
Psicrystals
Psionic Tattoos
Call Item - from the old 3.0 Expanded Psionics' Minds' Eye online additions

If you need anything else, just ask.


You can pick an alternate heritage if you want, and roll for an alternate ability. Take the Fiendish Heritage feat if you want to roll for more abilities and choose one, as it says on the page.

@ Andrezi:
The Call item does not seem too bad, but keep in mind that I am not terribly good at judging the balance of psionics. I will allow it, but maybe cut the duration a little.

Your character would get along great with the Kajra'vir, who you might meet in this setting.

The Exchange

Oh, heck. The tiefling heritages were on the PFSRD. Didn't see that.

Rolling for alternate ability:1d100 ⇒ 10

Ah, well. A bite attack isn't so bad, I guess.

Is my black blade Qstaff counting against my 3 items, or does it not count, being a class feature? Just curious, so I don't assume incorrectly.


By the internal logic of the world, it would count as one of your items. However, I told someone upthread that they could have it not count, since it is strictly speaking a class feature and is presumably balanced as such. So it doesn't count. I will say that the balde, being sentient was able to find its way back to you through the multiverse when you reincarnated.


Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Its quite alright. It is easier to play my character not having specific knowledge if I do not have it.

Item wise I am looking at the following:

1. Bracers of Armor +2
2. Headband of Vast Intelligence +2
3. Ring of Sustenance

And here are the rolls of his hit dice:

6d8 ⇒ (6, 8, 8, 5, 2, 4) = 33


I like the idea of playing something odd. I'll roll some stats just to see what comes up.

4d6 ⇒ (2, 6, 4, 4) = 16 14 (5 pts)
4d6 ⇒ (5, 1, 4, 3) = 13 12 (2 pts)
4d6 ⇒ (1, 4, 1, 4) = 10 9 (-1 pts)
4d6 ⇒ (3, 6, 4, 2) = 15 13 (3 pts)
4d6 ⇒ (6, 6, 3, 5) = 20 17 (13 pts)
4d6 ⇒ (6, 1, 1, 1) = 9 8 (-2 pts)

That's ... a 20-point buy exactly. Wow.


DM Caleth wrote:
You start with only the tree items, since you begin with your characters being resurrected on a distant plane. Thus you only have the few items which are most integral to you.

What about ammunition? Even a mundane shield? The three item limit puts a lot of limitations on builds for non-magical types.


ajkkjjk52 wrote:
DM Caleth wrote:
You start with only the three items, since you begin with your characters being resurrected on a distant plane. Thus you only have the few items which are most integral to you.
What about ammunition? Even a mundane shield? The three item limit puts a lot of limitations on builds for non-magical types.

I've enjoyed the challenge. Sure, I'd like more, but I've made a more interesting character because of it.


Its not like you are not going to get any other equipment. You are going to get treasure as you adventure and will even have some chances to buy equipment. I just never like to start reasonably high level characters with the full panoply that you usually see.


Ok Dwarven Fighter complete. Thankyou for considering him for your campaign.


DM Caleth wrote:
You start with only the three items, since you begin with your characters being resurrected on a distant plane. Thus you only have the few items which are most integral to you.

I like it - these are the three items my character died with.

Perhaps they are the three items your character was buried with.


I'm thinking of a Godling actually, which while most of that is up on the PFSRD, SGG just released a new book for. I've been thinking about buying anyways, and this game gives me a bit more of an excuse to do so.


4d6 ⇒ (4, 1, 2, 1) = 8 >>7
4d6 ⇒ (1, 2, 5, 6) = 14 >>13
4d6 ⇒ (4, 6, 3, 1) = 14 >>13
4d6 ⇒ (3, 6, 6, 2) = 17 >>15
4d6 ⇒ (1, 6, 1, 2) = 10 >>9
4d6 ⇒ (1, 4, 5, 3) = 13 >>12

Ugh, that's a ten point buy!

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