Bullets, Lies, and Open Skies

Game Master Eben al'Jol

On a ship: I sort of dig the idea of it being a former military ship, maybe damaged, which the team got from a salvage yard-- but all sorts of things sound fun to me, so this is only a mild preference.

I have to think about ship preferences for a bit.

I updated my profile with what I have so far. Need to add equipment, background, and then finish the stats for the dogs. I know what I want, just need to type it. I'm trying to make them different with their abilities according to their personalities/breed.

On a ship: I sort of dig the idea of it being a former military ship, maybe damaged, which the team got from a salvage yard-- but all sorts of things sound fun to me, so this is only a mild preference.

Agreed. Thematically, it makes sense that there would be decommissions, and a few years post-war, anything still flying would probably pick up a better price intact than scrap. Honestly, it wouldn't even have to be particularly old (but I suppose old things have their charm.)

A possible benefit of going that route would be that—given how much wartime encourages military technological advances—a modern military ship that's been sent to the wreck heap and considered beyond its worth to repair would have a lot of modern built-in innovations like electrical wiring for rudimentary electric lights (internal and external) and stuff like that. It would pave the way for you guys to have a nice ship once you got it up and running to your liking.

EDIT: And along those lines, the original design and role of the ship is still wide open for you guys even if its a decomissioned/scrapped military ship. It could be an old military heavy tug or salvage ship, or a medium military cargo-runner, or any number of things that aren't necessarily "floating armor dotted with gun emplacements" ... though that is an option, too.

Fixed Ambrose's stats and statted up the 2 dogs that currently are "in the pack" in this alias. I assumed I'd have enough time to teach them their full allotment of tricks. Hester is on the ship (and presumably being currently trained by Ambrose) but joins the "pack" when Ambrose hits Level 3. I might post her future stats soon just to be ready when that happens. I also need to add some minor things like Ambrose's equipment. One thing I did was assume that I'll get a rank in Pilot each level, like Gizmo got for his mechanics. Let me know if I'm wrong on that and I'll fix it.

Now that that's done I can start thinking about what suggestions I have for the ship. I think former military could be cool, too.

Hey Captain, keep in mind that your chain shirt gives you DR, not AC. Instead you get a defense bonus based on the fact that you have light armor proficiency (which gives you a +2 defense bonus at level 2).

Ambrose, that’s cool on the dogs. They looked fine on an initial pass. I was going to see if it made sense to treat their natural armor the way I’m treating Armor (as in it becomes DR/- equal to 1/2 the natural armor value), but that could get crazy and those dogs would have a ridiculously hard time getting a decent Defense (as they have no class to derive a Class defense bonus). For now, leave their stats as-is, and I’ll continue considering it.

Ambrose’s freebies: I am a leaf on the wind: You gain a free rank in Pilot every level, you gain Born to Fly as a free trait (which can only be used to gain Pilot, not Pilot Small Ship), and you gain the benefit of Skill Focus: Pilot as long as you’re on our crew’s main ship.

Awesome! Ok, so that frees me up for another trait. Ill think it over.

Ships, ships, ships...

I'm fine with an de-commissioned military vessel (preferably not too huge). I think we want agile and fast over bulky. Let's face it, fast is more fun to fly. I'd also side with something not bristling with weapons... though a couple or three weapons/turrets would be cool. I'm thinking of a retro-fitted combat military transport. So it has a bit of armor, good cargo space, hopefully enough space to hold a fighter, and just enough weapons to keep people from thinking we are punks. Here are some possibles:

Ship #1
Ship #2
Ship #3

And I also like the idea of an escort fighter. Maybe this guy:

Fighter Craft? Just throw on a second seat and a small ball turret and it would cool.

And one of these should be our deployable.. uh... scout vehicle.... yeah. (kidding)

Scout with Single 'Antenna'
Scout with Double 'Antennae'

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I think our illustrious DM envisions us all starting on the ship but I think it might be fun to figure out how we all got there and/or how we are connected. The easiest way to link Long to the ship is through Callum. Both are ex-military (though Long's service wasn't with typical combat units), both are from Lassaiz, and both are arcanists of one sort or another. I think it makes sense that heard about Long's fall from grace and rumors about being an occultist through the military or home grapevine. So when the archaeologist came looking for a job as a navigator/gunner/co-pilot, Callum wouldn't have had any problems with the man's rep.

Ambrose, that’s cool on the dogs. They looked fine on an initial pass. I was going to see if it made sense to treat their natural armor the way I’m treating Armor (as in it becomes DR/- equal to 1/2 the natural armor value), but that could get crazy and those dogs would have a ridiculously hard time getting a decent Defense (as they have no class to derive a Class defense bonus). For now, leave their stats as-is, and I’ll continue considering it.

Ambrose’s freebies: I am a leaf on the wind: You gain a free rank in Pilot every level, you gain Born to Fly as a free trait (which can only be used to gain Pilot, not Pilot Small Ship), and you gain the benefit of Skill Focus: Pilot as long as you’re on our crew’s main ship.

Would you allow this with regard to the captain as the leader I recognize?

I'm also considering this, if it would apply to the crew and/or dogs:

As to the dogs' natural armor--I totally forgot about the armor as DR when I was statting them. I feel like it probably should work as armor (a thick hide makes something harder to hurt, not harder to hit), but your point about the lack of defense boosts is a good one. It raises an interesting point, though--aren't all of the non-leveled things that we face going to have lower ACs without the defense bonus? Would you consider giving a defense bonus to class-less creatures based on creature type? Dragon gets highest, then maybe aberrations or undead, magical beasts, etc? That might complicate things a bit but it's one possible choice.

Stormy--cool examples. Out of the three, I like #1 the best, then #3. I think that fighter goes along well with choice 1 as well.

I didn't see in the documents list about hp.

is it half round up? so I would get 10 (level 1) plus 6 (level 2), plus con and potential favored class?

Ooh, that ship #1 is nice, stormraven. Nice find! Definitely fits the style of game I had in mind. #3 looks more like a single-pilot craft (if a big one), but I really like the kludgy style of it.

@Ambrose - Either of those traits works for me. And yah, that's likely how I'll be doing Defense for critters... just have to work through the details. Animals are likely to get the Light Armor or Medium Armor column. My initial inclination is Light, but that might put them at a Defense deficit from standard bestiary entries. Like i said, i'm still working through it.

@ Zedd - yep, max for 1st level, then PFS standard for every level thereafter.

I like Ship #1 and the Fighter. Good thing about Ship #1 is that you can scale it as needed just be declaring the portholes either correctly sized to the people or oversized - making the ship scale quite a bit larger.

I know there was some talk about using Serenity but I personally would rather not go that route.

It's totally up to you guys, but I like that #1 is small when stacked up to similar vessels (other Colossal Type A). Easy to underestimate. :)

... though crew accommodations would have to be similarly small and sparse, but that comes with its own brand of fun, right?

Tiny def likes a small outflier (as long as it is big enough for him to fit in the cockpit), to make it harder to hit. The higher caliber weapon we can fit on it, the better. :)

So I am pretty much done with my stats. Just need to finalize based on "crew" bonus.

@DM: I know you mentioned I would get combat pilot as a bonus feat. Just need to know if I get anything else like skill ranks in pilot small ship, skill focus pilot small ship, etc, as that will give me some more options (like throwing a rank or two in mechanic just in case, and moving skill focus to intimidate lol). Didn't know if I was allowed to have a sidearm or not in addition to Big Bertha (if I am, I would likely want a Dagger Pistol or just a regular Pistol). So I assumed a no and just took an assload of daggers.

@MB: I used your stats sheet as a template cause I'm lazy, and it looked like you didn't add your "human" skill point bonus. Take a look and see if I'm wrong, bro.

I like Ship #1 and the Fighter. Good thing about Ship #1 is that you can scale it as needed just be declaring the portholes either correctly sized to the people or oversized - making the ship scale quite a bit larger.

If we're being all democratic-like, I vote for those two ships.

I actually like the name The Owl, too.

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I think our illustrious DM envisions us all starting on the ship but I think it might be fun to figure out how we all got there and/or how we are connected. The easiest way to link Long to the ship is through Callum. Both are ex-military (though Long's service wasn't with typical combat units), both are from Lassaiz, and both are arcanists of one sort or another. I think it makes sense that heard about Long's fall from grace and rumors about being an occultist through the military or home grapevine. So when the archaeologist came looking for a job as a navigator/gunner/co-pilot, Callum wouldn't have had any...

I agree that it would be cool to discuss how we all got on the ship--it actually reminds me of the Firefly episode where they did that as well.

As for Ambrose, I like the suggestion of him being kind of a fixture on the ship, but I don't want him to be in the military in his past. So, is it possible that the military would hire civilian pilots? Or, as an alternative to a military ship that has been decomissioned, could the ship be a civilian ship that was hired out to work for the military to run transport (and in return given military-grade upgrades)? Just a few ideas.

Added a bit of a background section to my character profile.

As previously discussed, Callum and Zedd served together in the military. I didn't want to write too much more about their time together cause I didn't want to step on Cal's toes, but I was thinking something along the lines of:

Zedd was in over his head, surrounded and low on ammo, and Cal charged, guns blazing (with magic?) and saved him. That would explain his loyalty to Cal, and desire to accompany him when he got his own ship.

Again, I dunno if this is something Cal would have tried to hide while in the military, but I know at least for Zedd, he doesn't give two shits if one of his allies can use magic. All that matters in his eyes is what a man can do and what a man can't do. Savvy? /Jack Sparrow

Much like Firefly with Mal and Zoe finding the ship and hiring Wash, I don't have a problem with Cal and Zedd finding the ship and having Ambrose already be there like oh, are you the new crew? Hehe.

Then it stands to reason that, as SR said, Dr. Long could hear about a fellow arcanist/former lassaian military Captaining a ship and wanting to join up. That just leaves us figuring out how to add Gilly.

Gilly has kind of a Kaylee vibe... I could see the ship breaking down in some scrub town and the Captain looking to hire a mechanic. Gizmo shows up and wows him.

We might have to tweak some stories, depending on whether we want Callum as the sole ship-owner or if we all have 'shares'. In that case, Callum could have known about Long's dilemma and approached him as a financier on the ship... in exchange for a free ride out of town.

Question, o' DM: When WIS became Awareness, you switched the Will Save to CHA. Now that WIS is back, are Will saves based off WIS or CHA?

We're going back to PF stats, so Wis applies to Will saves.

Cool, then I think Doc is done. I'll double-check him against HeroLab but he should be close.

I was thinking about Zedd's outlflier/fighter ship. You guys can certainly go with the earlier suggestion, but with dbauers's thoughts that it be fast, agile, and sport a big gun ... what do you think about a racer with an after-market modification to have some guns put on the front. :)

I like that it has a hot-rod feel to it.

Bearing in mind that I am not the fighter jock (who really has the last 'say' in my opinion), I'm not a fan of the hotrod style. I think a more compact fighter with something more of a VTOL feel would work better with Ship #1 since I figure the cargo space/fighter storage will be accessed by a single large rear door. To me the hot looks like it would have to race straight in and need a runway. But that's just my two cents. I've mocked up a cannon on the previous fighter build. I'd still like a turret on this sucker to make it a two-seater.

Also, I think multi-angle turret > forward guns only... but that is just me.

Fighter 2

All fraction this system are vertical takeoff, regardless of style or shape. And the size of the craft between those two are going to be similar enough not to matter.

Also, all Pilot weapons are forward-facing by necessity, though you're right that a second gunner with pivoting option is a plus.

Like I said, up to you guys... I just thought that option looked like a fast ship.

I have no idea why that autocorrected to fraction. It should be 'ships in'. Sorry.

So I was running some preliminary options in case you guys go with that Owl option. What do you all think of the following?

• Reinforced Medium Armor Plating (Armor 45)
• Gatling Gun (Pilot) 4d10
• Gatling Gun (co-pilot) 4d10 (this could also be a belly-gun on that fore section)
• Heavy Gatling gun (top-side revolving gunner) 7d10; 2 hexes
• Tow cables
• Modest crew accommodations
• 2x modest passenger accommodations
• 15 cubic meters of cargo space
• Smuggling compartments

I can get you this stuff with modest Health and some pretty decent speed and maneuverability given the ship’s scale. Anything you’d like to add? Lose? Modify? More cargo space? More guns?

Is recruitment closed on this? I LOVE this series...

Eben, what is the ship size, speed, maneuver, etc. on that? Is this a Type A? Would the cargo space still have room for a fighter?

Is recruitment closed on this? I LOVE this series...

We didn't actually have a recruitment. This was a group of players I built this game for.

Do you mean you're a fan of the book series or of Firefly? I only ask because i'm not aware any of the players have actually read the book (which is good cause i'm basically stealing the plot .. or at least chunks of it).

How do you manage to get so many random people find your game without it being advertised at all? :P

Size: Colossal, Type A (-5 size modifier)
Durability: 20 (base 10; +10 size bonus)
Maneuverability: 8 (base 16; -10 size penalty)
Speed: 6 (base 3; improved by 3)

Base Defense Mod: 4 + pilot modifier (w/ Ambrose at the yolk: 15)
Ship Health 300
Armor 45

Ballast Ceiling: 5,000 m
Flight Ceiling: 8400 m

———

As for cargo space, that depends on what the fighter aership ends up being. Assuming you guys go with a Huge ship (which is what feels like the best fit for what dbauers has mentioned coupled with what some of you other guys have mentioned), that would max out at around 10 meters in length, and i guess we could assume that it’s 5 m in height and 5 meters in width (though that could be small depending on its shape/wingspan). If it does fit those size specs, then they take up two 5 meter cubes, leaving 25 of your 27 five-meter-cubes for supplies/cargo. That’s also assuming you keep the smaller ship docked on-board, which is possible, but i hand’t really considered. (that math look right to everyone?)

How do you manage to get so many random people find your game without it being advertised at all? :P

I don't actually have a clue. I would say that it's just based on the game concept (which is likely fairly rare around here), but they can't see that until they click on the discussion thread.

: shrugs :

You got me.

I think that would leave a single 5 meter cube for cargo space, unless I'm reading that wrong. Depending on the job, that may be a little thin... or not. Much as I like the speed you've got going, if we need to step it down to a speed 5 for a little more cargo space, I'd be OK with that.

I'm for docking the fighter for a few reasons. First, assuming we are using the Owl model... I don't see a good place to park a fighter on it. It doesn't have anything that looks like a landing pad. Second, I don't think we want to be flying two craft constantly. For RP reasons, it would be nice if all the characters hang out on board to interact.

Um, I'm a fan of both Firefly and I have read the whole Ketty Jay series, and I'm also a fan of Traveller actually. I have actually played a Vargr Spacer in a game.
Would love to join in, but I am happy to just dot and follow along if that's how it works out.

I clicked on the thread because the thread title smelled of Firefly, or possibly Airship Steam-Punk. Either one is worth a read.

Guys, I'm following along. We had a crazy day, and I was just unable to post anything worthwhile. I definitely like the direction things are going, though.

@Bilbax - You sir, have a very fine hat.

@Callum: Thank you Sir, A good hat is all a man needs in this world.

On the reread of the thread, I see the reply to Bilbo on page 1. So enjoy the skies. I will just follow along.

and I'm also a fan of Traveller actually.

Sadly, there aren't a lot of Traveller afficionados on Paizo. :(

I think that would leave a single 5 meter cube for cargo space, unless I'm reading that wrong. Depending on the job, that may be a little thin... or not. Much as I like the speed you've got going, if we need to step it down to a speed 5 for a little more cargo space, I'd be OK with that.

What?! A space 5 x 3 x 1 meters won't work for you when trying to park something the size of a P-51 mustang?!

: facepalm :

So apparently my math-brain was still at the in-laws house. My apologies. I hadn't actually worked out the details of determining cargo space at different ship scales, and I threw that together as a CP exercise without applying any actual common sense to it.

How about this instead? Let's assume cargo space is located in that center and tail section of the Owl. If we assume a space 1/3 the length of the ship that's about half as tall and wide as it is long (15m x 8 m x 8 m), you get a space around 960 cu. m.

If the original intent of the ship was as a forward-combat utilitarian hauler (transport, tug, and salvage), that gives it a surprising amount of roominess for its diminutive bulk. And it gives you space to stow your fighter, spare parts, extra fuel, with a fair bit of cubic space left over for cargo-hauling. And if you need more room, you can always remove your fighter and have it fly escort for the entire trip (not ideal for rp purposes, but doable in the rare situation where you need to move A LOT of goods).

That may be a bit generous given the ship's size, so we can either chalk it up to amazingly clever engineering or we could kick the ship size up a bit.

@Callum: Thank you Sir, A good hat is all a man needs in this world.

On the reread of the thread, I see the reply to Bilbo on page 1. So enjoy the skies. I will just follow along.

Well, you're certainly welcome to follow along. Moreover, since I never heard back from Bilbo Bang Bang, if you'd like to be considered my 3rd alternate player, the spot if yours. I know that might not be super-exciting, but it's the best I got, and I hate to turn away a fan of the source material. :)

Also, please, please, please, please, please be considerate of the fact that i'm heavily using Retribution Falls for this story. (no spoilers, please)

Zedd crew bonus: You gain Pilot Small Ship as a class skill, 1 free rank in it per level, and Combat Pilot for free.

Zedd gear: Due to taking Big Bertha (the gatling gun), you’ll need to restrict other weapon purchases to common weapons like you have been. One of those alternate weapons being a variant of the Dagger pistol is fine. For this, treat it mechanically like a Dagger pistol in that link you sent, but with stats lie a holdout pistol (minus the Sleight of Hand bonus) for the firearm component of it. It’ll be a single-shot, break-loading pistol.

……….

Also, what i think will be the version of that Heavy Weapons Wielder feat that’ll make it to the game open:

Heavy Weapons Wielder
Prerequisites: Strength 15, BAB +1
Benefit: With the aid of a personal gatling gun harness, you can carry and wield a gatling gun without a tripod or emplacement. When using this feat to wield a gatling gun in personal combat, it is treated as a two-handed firearm. All attacks made with this weapon in this fashion receive a -4 penalty due to its bulk and recoil. Also, wielded in this fashion, the gatling gun deals 4d10 damage, has a range increment of 60 feet, and has a misfire range of 1-3 that jams on a misfire (requiring a standard action to clear the jam). Loading a gatling gun for use with this feat requires a full-round action, and each belt of ammunition carries enough rounds for five individual attacks before needing to reload.
Normal: A character cannot wield ship-scale weapons in character-scale combat. 

And you’ll notice that the ability to reduce the firing penalty has been removed. After some consideration, I’ve made that a universal “Aim or Brace a firearm” rule for all firearms. It’ll be updated soon into the game docs, but the short version is this: a firearm-wielding character may use a move action (which provokes AoO’s) to brace or aim their firearm, gaining a +2 bonus to their next firearm attack taken before the end of their next round.

@Eben: Thanks! I would love to take the alternate spot. Even happy to jump in as an NPC or helping to make Villains or NPCs.
Don't worry about spoilers... the players won't hear that Arum secretly comes from the gills of the Allsoul's fish-man storm-troopers from me. No sir.

@E.E.L.: Yes, being a Traveller fan suggests that you are a gamer of... ahem... a certain age.

Callum’s crew slot perks

Only home (Ex): You’ve spent a lot of time on your ship, and you’ve learned a lot of her quirks. You gain a +1 bonus on checks to pilot this ship as well as those to diagnose or repair problems with her or her systems.

Can’t take the skies from me! (Ex): Your ship is your freedom. You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls made aboard your ship (including gunner attack rolls).
 
...........

Callum, your role perks seem a bit thin compared to the others. Then again, a flat +1 to attacks when on the ship is pretty decent.

@Eben: Thanks! I would love to take the alternate spot. Even happy to jump in as an NPC or helping to make Villains or NPCs.

Don't worry about spoilers... the players won't hear that Arum secretly comes from the gills of the Allsoul's fish-man storm-troopers from me. No sir.

Ha! Much appreciated. I'd hate for that to get leaked. :)

And actually, i've only read the first book in the series. I'm likely to pick up the other books pretty soon.

Regarding small ship storage, does it have to be inside the ship? I was kind of thinking of some outer attachment a la Indy and the Last Crusade or something like this image (lower portion)

Callum, your role perks seem a bit thin compared to the others. Then again, a flat +1 to attacks when on the ship is pretty decent.

Works for me.

@E.E.L.: Yes, being a Traveller fan suggests that you are a gamer of... ahem... a certain age.

LOL. That was diplomatic. :D Actually, Traveller has been reincarnated about 9 or 10 times. There was the original version, of course, but that was followed by a GURPS version, a Hero version, Mega-Traveller, the Mongoose version (a pretty decent recreation), and Marc Miller re-acquired the game and created an updated version, etc... I've missed several of the interim steps to be sure but TECHNICALLY I might not actually be as long in the tooth as you are suggesting. :)

Having said that... I AM as old as you are suggesting since I was playing the original version.

@Eben: If you liked the first one, the others follow the same lines. Good light-hearted romps.

@E.E.L.: Yes, I have most of the various Traveller versions, I think GURPS is my favorite. I have even forced younger friends to play Traveller.
But I really do think that all of the reincarnations have more to do with "Gamers of a Certain Age"(TM) being in a position to write the checks and make the deals that bring back games with little to no audience. So if you are a FAN, generally speaking, you can remember the late 70's.
Point of interest: In the pilot of Firefly, at some point Mal makes a general announcement where he refers to the audience of that announcement as "Travelers" always made me wonder if that was a little shout out to an influence on the show.

Im going to look over the ship information again, hopefully tonight, to see what are all of the options we have. Overall, I prefer cargo space and maneuverability probably over speed (but don't want to be too slow).

You should feel free to look at those docs, but keep in mind they're not going to be exhaustive simply because they're effectively play-test material.

I'd say just toss out the things you want a ship to have, and we can go from there.

For instance, the more Ive heard you guys talk about the ship, and the more I've considered it, the more I think it's shaping up to be a small, agile, rugged military-spec multi-purpose cargo hauler used for hot-zone transport, cargo-drops, and salvage runs.

So it has a few guns, big engines, a small profile, reinforced plating, and some bells and whistles that should aid you guys in towing or salvaging ships. But toss out whatever other thoughts you have.

Also, i"m actually thinking the Owl is the model type for the ship .... so you guys still have to name her. :D

Also, it'd be good to settle on an image for dbauers's fighter ship. Love anyone to weigh in on that, especially dbauers.