I have been following many discussions on this Playtest subforum with the goal of envisioning resonance. The resonance mechanic at the moment feels like nothing more than a mechanic. It was designed to simplify the use of X-uses-per-turn magic items, to replace the magic item slots, to prevent spamming cheap consumables, to eliminate "worn for 24 hours" restrictions, and to replace Use Magic Device skill. The fivefold goal has resulted in a complex system. How can I explain it to my players?
Of the five people I think will participate in the playtest with me, I will have one true newbie, one near newbie who does not understand written rules well, one experienced player who would rather improvise from a verbal description that read a rulebook, and two people who would read the playest rulebook. Thus, I want to give a clear verbal description of the resonance system.
A good underlying concept makes a strong foundation for a verbal description. I have read many different visualizations of resonance. Let's go over them.
0) Magical charges
For comparison, let me begin with the notions I use in pre-resonance Pathfinder 1st Edition. Magic items are invested with magic during their creation. Either that magic is unchangingly stored until use, as with a scroll or a feather token, or the magic recharges fast enough to be used a few times during the day as in a circlet of blasting. The internal magic of an item is measured in charges. Sometimes these charges are explicit, as the charges in a wand or staff, and sometimes the charges are implied, as in the 10 rounds per day of Boots of Speed. A single use of a Ring of Invisibility is enough to make a person invisible for 3 minutes; fortunately, after 3 minutes the ring has recharged so it can be used again. Continuous items charge fast enough for an uninterrupted effect.
This does not explain magic item slots on a person's body, so we also assume some kind of interference between two magic items too close to each other. It also does not explain Use Magic Device. Some people describe Use Magic Device as tricking the item, so a few GMs have forbidden the skill to paladins forbidden to lie, but I envision it as attuning one's inner magic to the kind of magic that activates the item.
1) Resonance as inner magical power.
If I present resonance primarily as a resource pool to be spent, like the arcane pool of the magus or the grit pool of the gunslinger, then I have labeled it as an inner resource. An inner magic power fits the Golarion setting well. Magic items are powered by the person who holds them, which explains how non-consumables can go on forever.
However, PF2 already has an inner magical power: spell points. The differences between resonance and spell points is that resonance deals with magic items and spell points don't, and resonance comes from level and Charisma and spell points come from a spellcasting class. Describing two very similar pools of inner magic to my players will lead to confusion.
In addition, magic weapons would have to consume resonance under this visualization, and they don't. Likewise, what would power magic traps?
2) Resonance as external magic power.
The best example of external magic power is the Circle of Magic series by Tamora Pierce. Four children, and in the Circle Opens some others, do not cast their spells off of inner magical power. Instead, they have an affinity for the magic of ordinary objects: Sandry with thread and weaving, Tris with wind and weather, Daja with fire and forge, and Briar with plants. They have power beyond ordinary mages because they are not using their own power. In PF2 the objects would be magic items and the affinity would be represented by resonance.
But straight external power empowers the character, rather than depleting them. We don't want resonance users to become more powerful than spell-point users. And they won't be, because using magic items uses up resonance quickly. Some other factor than empowerment is active here.
3) Resonance as tolerance.
I played with resonance as tolerance in comment #877 in the Paizo Blog: Trinkets and Treasures discussion. The notion is that magic items strain the person who uses them. Resonance measures the tolerance against the strain. This has a nice mythic vibe similar to bearing the One Ring and keeping Stormbringer's bloodthirst under control. Resonance as tolerance acts more like hit points than spell points, but the damage is self inflicted.
Resonance does not power the magic items; rather, the power is limited by a resonance threshold. Wearing a magic item costs resonance and activating a magic items costs resonance, because the strain increases. Perhaps weapons don't cost resonance because people hold them farther from the body and that causes less strain. Do magic shields cost resonance? Staves are also held equally far, but they require activation which is a closer link.
This is closer to how PF2 magic items work, but it does have one gap: what happens when resonance runs out. The plausible outcome for acivating an item without resonance is some kind of harm, such as hit point damage or the sickened condition. Failure to activate implies that the power comes from the person, not the item.
4) Resonance as attunement
How do non-intelligent magic items know what to do? A scroll is no problem, because that is spell completion. But do Boots of Striding and Springing simply make the person lighter or do they change the wearer's stride? That would imply a connection. And the name "resonance" implies two objects vibrating together.
The resonance spent on worn and carried items could be viewed as assigned to the item to create that connection. Resonance spent as activation can be viewed as re-establishing that connection after a surge of magic burned it out, so resonance is spent at the end of activation rather than at the beginning. And without connection, the magic item cannot detect attempts to activate it. The limit on items worn is because a person needs practice at maintaining several connections.
But like resonance as inner magic power, this explanation has trouble explaining why weapons don't need resonance.
5) Resonance as liveliness
The magic items have their own power, but that is not all they need. Magic inside unliving items could lack liveliness. It is static and inert. It needs to be awaken by living magic. The magic the wielder provides is not powerful, but it is the spark needed to ignite the magic in the item.
This is slightly better than resonace as inner magic power, since it leaves off "power", but the difference between liveliness and power is too subtle and will be lost in my explanation. And magic traps would be hard to justify.
6) Resonance as performance
Resonance is based on Charisma, so perhaps its nature relates to the PF2 Charisma skills. Use Magic Device will no longer be a Charisma skill, but how about Performance? What if the wielder had to finesse the magic item like playing a musical instrument? The Boots of Striding and Springing move on their own and their wearer learns to dance with their motion.
This notion lacks the need for spending resonance, since despite an investigator's inspiration pool, spending points does not feel like a skill or a performance. But it could complement resonance as attunement. Perhaps resonance as performance could fill in the gaps, such as using weapons without spending resonance.
Conclusion
I plan to use attunement with a splash of performance to describe resonance to my players as follows:
When you put on a magic item, such as magic armor, a magic ring, or magic boots, your body attunes to the item and makes a connection. The connection is called an investment in the item. The number of investments you can maintain is limited, and the maximum is your resonance limit, which starts every morning at your level plus your Charisma modifier, minimum 1. Any item you put on past your resonance limit won't work magically, though magic boots will still be boots.
You cannot voluntarily end an investment. You are stuck with it the rest of the day, even if you take off the item and someone else uses it. If you sleep for the night while wearing the item, the investment endures for the next day and counts against your fresh resonance limit. You still have to be wearing or holding the item properly to use it.
An exception is weapons. You go through an attunement ritual in the morning, such as a paladin saying morning prayers while holding his Holy Avenger sword in front of him, to invest in the weapon, but that investment does not count against the resonance limit.
Activating a magic item requires more than a connection. The effort burns up resonance and reduces the resonance limit by one for the day. If your investments are at your resonance limit already, you cannot activate items. Drinking a magic potion activates it, so be careful that you don't waste one by drinking it without spare resonance.
For those who played Pathfinder 1st Edition, magic items no longer have body slots. You can wear as many rings and amulets as your resonance limit. Wearing two pairs of magic boots would be physically impractical, but if you crafted one set of enchanted footwear as magic socks instead, they fit into your magic boots just fine.
Divesture
In my interpretation of resonance, I said, "You cannot voluntarily end an investment." That appears to be the rule as written in the PF2 playtest. But we could get some useful results if we do allow an investment to end and to return the resonance in the investment.
GM: Suddenly, a goblin steps out of the shadows and sneak attacks Clive. Clive is flatfooted. 15 damage.
Clive: I am down and dying.
Fredrick: But you're the cleric!
Ricki: I pull a healing potion out of my belt pouch and rush to Clive. Do you have any resonance left?
Fredrick: I charge the goblin who backstabbed Clive. (rolls) I hit for 2 damage.
Clive: I ...
GM: (interrupting) Don't answer. Your cleric is unconscious and can't speak. Fredrick, the goblin swings at you and misses.
Ricki: I check Clive for rings and amulets. Do I see any?
Fredrick: (rolls) I hit the goblin for 11 damage.
GM: Clive, you can answer that. Fredrick, the goblin is down.
Clive: I'm wearing an amulet of natural armor +1.
Ricki: I pull off the amulet. That frees up a resonance. Then I give Clive the potion.
GM: Clive, you heal up for (rolls) 7 hit points.
Clive: I wake up and ask for my amulet back. I did have 1 resonance, so I put it back on. Then I ask everyone to gather together for healing.
Many people are worried that a healing potion could fail because the unconscious drinker is out of resonance. Paizo has a 50% chance of activating it even without resonance to avoid that situation. Which does not avoid it; instead, it makes it random.
My interpretation of resonance has the resonance point invested in the item rather than spent on the item. Investments in real life create value that can be returned. What if removing the worn magic item returns the resonance? I call this "divesture."
That could be a solution to the potion problem. Remove a magic item worn by the unconscious character and he is guaranteed to have a resonance to activate the potion. It is a balanced solution, because if he was out of resonance, he spent the returned resonance on the potion and cannot re-invest the magic item again that day. He would lose a benefit in exchange for the healing.
Divesture also fits well with hand-held weapons not requiring resonance. Those items are easily put down. Swapping between investment and divestment easily would be awkward bookkeeping, so we tweak the interpretation that items easily put down need a resonance ritual, and investing with a resonance ritual doesn't count against the resonance limit. Handwaved for player convenience is an acceptable suspension of disbelief.
An alternative houserule for the healing potion problem would be to create a magic item that uses a volunteer's resonance rather than the injured person's resonance. Unlike a wand, it has to be something anyone can use, in case the party healer is the unconscious person. My inspiration for the trinket below is the Nodwick comic by Aaron Williams. The cleric Piffany often performed major healing on the abused henchman Nodwick by tapeing him back together with duct tape first. In later comics, we learned that the duct tape was magic adhesive restorative bandages.
Restorative Bandages Item 1+
Consumable, Healing, Magical, Necromancy, Trinket
Method of Use Operate DC 10 Medicine check [[A]] and Focus Activation (1 resonance) [[F]]; Bulk L
Duration 10 minutes
These bandages are affixed to the injured subject with a successful Medicine check action, DC 10, followed by Focus Activation free action spending 1 resonance by the person who made the Medicine check. Successfully Administering First Aid with these bandages (counts as one use of a healer's kit) would also serve as the Medicine check. The subject gains the listed fast healing for the duration, plus stabilization and 1 hit point restored upon activation. Multiple restorative bandages at the same time don't stack.
Type minor; Level 1; Price 5 gp; Details Fast healing 1/20, i.e., 1 hp restored every 2 minutes.
Type lesser; Level 3; Price 8 gp; Details Fast healing 1/10, i.e., 1 hp restored every minute.
Type moderate; Level 5; Price 20 gp; Details Fast healing 1/5, i.e., 1 hp restored every 5 rounds.
Type greater; Level 8; Price 60 gp; Details Fast healing 1/3, i.e., 1 hp restored every 3 rounds.
Type major; Level 12; Price 250 gp; Details Fast healing 1/2, i.e., 1 hp restored every 2 rounds.
Type true; Level 16; Price 1,200 gp; Details Fast healing 1, i.e., 1 hp restored every round.
I imagine resonance as sort of a combination of tolerance and attunement.
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One of the ways I view Weapons getting around this is that they aren't ongoing magical in the same way other items are (though the activated bit are.) Magic was used in creating a weapon so sharp it cuts air, or hard it can crush mountains what have you, but now it just is that way. Some magic lingers from this process (and thus detects as magic) but the magic isn't active in the same way it is with an item that produces a spell, or boots that confer speed or armour the fortifies body and mind alike.
Normally I'm fond of such viewpoints, but I think the existence and transferability of the "runes" that constitute the weapon's magic sabotages this one. Whatever properties the weapon has, the runes must be maintaining them on an ongoing basis. :-(
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I like the idea of divestiture, not sure it would be needed but it would be good to have just in case, plus it would reassure many of those who are concerned about resonance.
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Ah I thought potency was separate from Runes! DangOne of the ways I view Weapons getting around this is that they aren't ongoing magical in the same way other items are (though the activated bit are.) Magic was used in creating a weapon so sharp it cuts air, or hard it can crush mountains what have you, but now it just is that way. Some magic lingers from this process (and thus detects as magic) but the magic isn't active in the same way it is with an item that produces a spell, or boots that confer speed or armour the fortifies body and mind alike.Normally I'm fond of such viewpoints, but I think the existence and transferability of the "runes" that constitute the weapon's magic sabotages this one. Whatever properties the weapon has, the runes must be maintaining them on an ongoing basis. :-(
I confess that I was going to skip explaining runes to my players. The runes matter only if they want to change the potency and properties of a weapon or armor. Instead, I planned to throw in a little flavor during an encounter, "You see the warrior's sword is inscribed with runes. Make an Arcana roll. These runes enchant the weapon and make it more powerful."
Rune-based enchantments would have made a nice excuse why weapons don't need resonance, but armor has runes, too, so that excuse falls flat.
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I see it as simply:
It costs resonance for a character to cast a spell without using a spell slot. Your life force is a limited but rechargeable magic battery. Magic armor and weapons are being enhanced by the magic weapon and magic vestment or similar spells which is why they cost resonance too.
Edit: maybe if weapons and armor were made with magic techiques they can have flat bonuses with out resonance.
From every fluff perspective, excluding weapons from resonance does seem counterintuitive. I would have added 1 to resonance and say you have to invest them all, though it might be that you are supposed to have a few (magical) weapons that can be deployed according to need.
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From every fluff perspective, excluding weapons from resonance does seem counterintuitive. I would have added 1 to resonance and say you have to invest them all, though it might be that you are supposed to have a few (magical) weapons that can be deployed according to need.
Weapons requiring investment to use would be a trap. Between damage resistances and a need to be able to pull out ranged weapons to deal with some enemies, if weapons require investment PCs are completely locked into (or out of) weapons for quite a few levels.
I'm truthfully not sold on resonance based on level, even beyond the basic problems resonance brings. 'You're more capable at chugging potions' isn't a particularly compelling skill set to increase with leveling.
As far as fluff perspective, there doesn't seem to be one. This is just a pure game mechanism for solving what is essentially a flavor preference.
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From every fluff perspective, excluding weapons from resonance does seem counterintuitive. I would have added 1 to resonance and say you have to invest them all, though it might be that you are supposed to have a few (magical) weapons that can be deployed according to need.
I'm for anything that allows martials to move away from the "one true weapon" phenomenon in PF1e, even if it seems counterintuitive.
Also, does making weapons cost resonance this mean that a two-weapon fighter with a ranged weapon needs to invest 3 points of resonance? What if they're using magical ammunition? Does that need 4 points? 1 additional point for each arrow (budgeted at the beginning of the day)? Got an alternate weapon (maybe a magical light mace or something for overcoming DR or exploiting a weakness)? Okay, that's at least 5 points . . . It could get ugly in a hurry.
The result: "I use a single two-handed weapon and don't have a magical ranged backup."
The alternatives, such as "you can invest all of your weapons for 1 point of resonance" are similarly counterintuitive and would also cause wailing and gnashing of teeth on the forums.
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The result: "I use a single two-handed weapon and don't have a magical ranged backup."
Exactly this. Weapons requiring resonance would promote 'I can't/won't participate' behavior.
Yeah, it would be too difficult to include weapons, unless they allowed divestiture. That way, if you switched weapons, you would get a point back to reinvest in the next weapon. It would only be a problem for TWF then. Mind you, by the time they got a second magic weapon they will probably have enough resonance, so maybe not.
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The issues of narrative and mechanical consistancy created by Resonance are far worse than the "problems" it solves. It has a similar level of arbitraryness as vancian spellcasting, except that unlike the latter, every in-world justification I can invent for it is rendered nonviable by one or more it the system's odd exceptions.
I think it is yet another element that heroic fantasy fiction inspired or based on PF2 will simply have to ignore in order for their stories to function. Which only serves to widen the gulf between golarion-in-fiction, and golarion-in-practice.
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From every fluff perspective, excluding weapons from resonance does seem counterintuitive. I would have added 1 to resonance and say you have to invest them all, though it might be that you are supposed to have a few (magical) weapons that can be deployed according to need.
Not every fluff perspective. An aura tolerance idea of resonance would mean that passive benefits you wear would have a lot more impact than ones you hold.
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The issues of narrative and mechanical consistancy created by Resonance are far worse than the "problems" it solves. It has a similar level of arbitraryness as vancian spellcasting, except that unlike the latter, every in-world justification I can invent for it is rendered nonviable by one or more it the system's odd exceptions.
I think it is yet another element that heroic fantasy fiction inspired or based on PF2 will simply have to ignore in order for their stories to function. Which only serves to widen the gulf between golarion-in-fiction, and golarion-in-practice.
yep. I can think of a couple books offhand that would be completely different with resonance. Nightblade in particular depends on wands for its major battles and climax, and resonance would come up frequently with a couple of the Varian and Radovan novels. Ooops, can't activate true seeing with the Shadowless Sword at will anymore, and the handling of Radovan's attempts to cast mount through scrolls would just be amusing...
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We really can't get into why items have an Investment cost or not until we see the items in question.
I will say that so far, items that give you an at-will magical effect in the form of a cantrip require Investment, and casting a non-cantrip spell with an item (or the equivalent ie: potions of healing or buff elixirs) costs 1 Resonance to use. So far, no items that don't fall under those categories cost Resonance. Passive bonuses of all sorts are Resonance free thus far...though whether that remains true when we have the whole list is a whole separate matter.
yep. I can think of a couple books offhand that would be completely different with resonance. Nightblade in particular depends on wands for its major battles and climax, and resonance would come up frequently with a couple of the Varian and Radovan novels. Ooops, can't activate true seeing with the Shadowless Sword at will anymore, and the handling of Radovan's attempts to cast mount through scrolls would just be amusing...
Isiem is 10th level or so in Nightblade with almost no non-consumable gear. He has Resonance to burn.
I'd have to re-read the Radovan/Jeggare books to comment on that one, but they're decently leveled (around 6 or so) with decent Charisma (I think both have at least 12+), so they have a fair amount of Resonance as well. Also, it seems worth noting that at-will effects don't cost Resonance when converted, as a rule.
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I'm not so concerned about whether or not resonance would have come up in specific cases. Rather I was making a point about how one would even go about representing it if it did... For example:
How do you explain in-character that using a wand of healing expends both an internal reserve in the wand, as well as a personal magical reserve. Moreover this same reserve is used when you drink a potion, or read from a scroll... but different from the seperate personal magical reserve you use to channel energy, and different still from the other reserve you use to cast spells (some of which might he healing spells).
Oh and you also have to explain in the same breath why you have to invest some of the first internal pool into your armor and other worn magical items, as well as staves... but somehow weapons can power themselves.
You also need a reason why in thousands of years nobody ever considered applying whatever magical principle allows weapon runes to do so to armor runes, staves, or other worn items... as well as one for why none of the other personal magical pools can be used for said purposes either.
As a writer I would just trash-can the whole thing alongside the vancian casting. It is a headache that only serves to tell me that certain stories are impossible (read "badwrongfun").
I imagine that even within the bounds of first-party material (i.e. rulebooks and setting supplements) the in-world rammifications of Resonance will be ignored; just like how in PF1 the descriptions of magical items completely ignore the realities imposed by their arbitrary market values.
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Don't bring up specific examples that apparently don't work if you are just going to abandon them when shown Resonance wouldn't have broken those examples one iota. Its not like we are trading in a logically consistent world for one that isn't by adding Resonance. Nothing in PF works to make a coherent world if you squint even remotely at the details.
For the record, I actually quite disagree with this. I think Golarion is mostly pretty internally consistent most of the time. I just don't think Resonance causes any meaningful problems with that at all.
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For me, Pathfinder 1E is more than satisfactory at creating a narratively reasonable world.
For me, the universal application of resonance creates a significant disruption in that narrative stability which is deeply unappealing. Nothing in 10 years of PF1E has been anywhere close to a deal breaker.
Just because you can point out oddities (which I frequently will even agree with) in 1E does not mean that anything goes and there is no threshold or standard which becomes a deal breaker.
So the question is not simply, "can you just squint a little harder"?
The question is "How many people will find this 'as-is' to be a deal breaker, and how many people can PF afford to lose without becoming economically inviable?"
To be clear, there are some very cool things about resonance, IMO.
Having wands, staves and various items work based on inner power and not charges is a clever and fun idea. This point has absolutely nothing to do with CLW.
But if potions may or may not be tap water then something has gone wrong.
If somebody else is running around spamming wands of CLW, then that makes no difference to my game. If they are upset about and yet still doing it, I think it is a fool's errand to try to design that away from every table. People who want to exploit the system are going to find ways to exploit the system. If they are spamming wands and unhappy then "stop it" is a good answer. If they are spamming wands and happy, then this is a solution looking of a problem. Either way, groups who just don't go around spamming shoudln't have their play constrained over this. And, in the end, they won't.
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And that would be a good start.
There are scrolls as well.
And then you get into the wonkiness of boots using the same reserve as a wand.
The list goes on.
The fact that as currently drafted a fighter and wizard are on par for resonance doesn't really work for me either. And that becomes easy to solve if you just focus on things that use charges. The fighter gets a small reserve for his sword that can occasionally shoot a blast of fire or his boots of speed that can occasionally teleport him 50 feet. The wizard gets relatively more and has staves and wands and such.
And that isn't meant to be a whine about relative power or stepping on each other's toes. It juts comes down to the underlying assumption that everything taps into the same reserve is just wonky and very much a matter of the mechanics slapping you in the face saying "this ain't no story bub, we are here to play by the rules whether they make sense or not".
And it all extends from trying to a take a problem that certainly doesn't impact everyone and then trying to wrap a bunch of other game bits up under the same questionable solution. The CLW workaround shouldn't have any impact on my perfectly fine 'ain't broke please don't fix them' boots of speed.
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I mean, the fact that we need a thread about how to "interpret" resonance should be a red flag.
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I mean, the fact that we need a thread about how to "interpret" resonance should be a red flag.
Yes, a big red flag that nobody in here has read the playtest document yet.
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From every fluff perspective, excluding weapons from resonance does seem counterintuitive. I would have added 1 to resonance and say you have to invest them all, though it might be that you are supposed to have a few (magical) weapons that can be deployed according to need.Not every fluff perspective. An aura tolerance idea of resonance would mean that passive benefits you wear would have a lot more impact than ones you hold.
But then you are making an exception for anything else you hold that requires resonance, so: potions, scrolls, wands, staves and any wondrous items that you hold (e.g. feather tokens, if they still have them in pf2), without really explaining why weapons are treated differently.
They should be treated the same, with an allowance for the extra item (+1 resonance) and divestiture allowing the swapping of weapons (or other items). I'm sure most people would rather have their character survive but not be able to wield one of their magic items than die due to lack of resonance (though I would be surprised if it ever came to this personally, except perhaps with a low cha character) and including weapons means they are treated the same as everything else, making resonance universal.
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** spoiler omitted **
But a huge amount of stuff thats been in books won't be doable in PF2E, because the content they are based off won't be available on release.
That specific spoiler is a very weird counter example, since he's being empowered and promptly loses those abilities by the end of the book. (ie, it has zero to do with his level).
The point is that both groups across several novels are shown buying potions in quantity, using both wands, potions and other consumables, and do have other items they expect to work, whether they have several non-consumable items (which several of the characters do), and pop potions and wands like candy (which they do).
The last ditch desperate plan in Nightblade also specifically revolved around the enemy taking and using a triggered magic item, despite using wands and and unknown amount of other stuff. That isn't a viable approach at all in PF2.
For more than a decade, the expectation of how things work in Golarion has been well fleshed out. Pausing the heroics for random accounting work hasn't ever been part of it, particularly since the accounting described would be of ?? for ?? purposes. Less heroics and more bookkeeping doesn't make for a good or interesting system.
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But then you are making an exception for anything else you hold that requires resonance, so: potions, scrolls, wands, staves and any wondrous items that you hold (e.g. feather tokens, if they still have them in pf2), without really explaining why weapons are treated differently.From every fluff perspective, excluding weapons from resonance does seem counterintuitive. I would have added 1 to resonance and say you have to invest them all, though it might be that you are supposed to have a few (magical) weapons that can be deployed according to need.Not every fluff perspective. An aura tolerance idea of resonance would mean that passive benefits you wear would have a lot more impact than ones you hold.
I'm not sure how you are getting any use out of potions by just holding them. And I did specify passive benefits that you hold. Using an activated ability requires more strain and covers all your wondrous item examples.
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Unless you can show me a chapter in which any character uses x magic items where x is more than whatever arbitrary level we decide is reasonable + whatever arbitrary charisma we feel as reasonable then I still don't consider Resonance going against anything shown.** spoiler omitted **
But a huge amount of stuff thats been in books won't be doable in PF2E, because the content they are based off won't be available on release.
That specific spoiler is a very weird counter example, since he's being empowered and promptly loses those abilities by the end of the book. (ie, it has zero to do with his level).
The point is that both groups across several novels are shown buying potions in quantity, using both wands, potions and other consumables, and do have other items they expect to work, whether they have several non-consumable items (which several of the characters do), and pop potions and wands like candy (which they do).
The last ditch desperate plan in Nightblade also specifically revolved around the enemy taking and using a triggered magic item, despite using wands and and unknown amount of other stuff. That isn't a viable approach at all in PF2.
For more than a decade, the expectation of how things work in Golarion has been well fleshed out. Pausing the heroics for random accounting work hasn't ever been part of it, particularly since the accounting described would be of ?? for ?? purposes. Less heroics and more bookkeeping doesn't make for a good or interesting system.
Well, the various kids in Crusader Road, Plague of Shadows and Winter Witch are complete novices and not particularly charismatic. So level 1 and +0. Any time they use more than one item in a day (not just 'a chapter') would seem to qualify.
Regardless, though, I'm comfortable with the idea that Resonance just doesn't mesh with the setting or the genre. That they didn't even bother trying in two articles, and simply go with the explanation that it comes from the Occult Anachronisms and Mechanical Messes book doesn't help.
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I like 3 Resonance as tolerance. When you have reached your limit, your body (or your mind) will just not initiate the link with the magic in the item unless you manage the roll. Or rather it will automatically disrupt the link rather than let it hurt you
And weapons do not count because the energy stored within already has an outlet. Their magic is already using its destructive potential against creatures : those they strike
I like 3 Resonance as tolerance. When you have reached your limit, your body (or your mind) will just not initiate the link with the magic in the item unless you manage the roll. Or rather it will automatically disrupt the link rather than let it hurt you
And weapons do not count because the energy stored within already has an outlet. Their magic is already using its destructive potential against creatures : those they strike
Stiiiiiiiiiiiiiiill super tempted to let PCs push past the disruption and possibly immolate themselves in the process.
I'm probably just going to run resonance as a combination of innate and accumulated external (kinda like absorbed background radiation with all the new experiences of adventuring against magic robots and such) forces, being able to bond an item into those fields or whatnot (investment) or siphoning off some energy like a spark. Potions need that spark for the components to mix properly and activate, wands use it to break a magic loop holding some quantised unit of spell in place, items use it to transiently activate, and so on. The only items that need investment (I'll need to rework my explanation if this turns out to be off) are those that have reason to be directly and magically bonded to the user, e.g. passing on a passive effect (like buffing some spells they can cast) or otherwise tampering with their innate or learned abilities (e.g. magic armour makes you better at dodging it seems and can enhance your willpower), or have been designed specifically to do so (hypothetical bag of holding that only opens properly for the bound user). Stuff that can be permanently on (e.g. McBurny Frosty sword, normal bag of holding) and otherwise don't affect the user much shouldn't require investment or cost.
I'm probably just going to run resonance as a combination of innate and accumulated external (kinda like absorbed background radiation with all the new experiences of adventuring against magic robots and such) forces, being able to bond an item into those fields or whatnot (investment) or siphoning off some energy like a spark.
For me, it seems easier to just have the gods decree that everyone has been doing it wrong up to this point and that now there are new arbitrary rule that make magic items unreliable. If you beg the gods, they'll allow you to use a few if your lucky but they might not.
Seems as logical as anything else. At least that explains why cha matters. :P
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I mean, the fact that we need a thread about how to "interpret" resonance should be a red flag.Yes, a big red flag that nobody in here has read the playtest document yet.
I doubt Paizo put an interpretation in the playtest document. An interpretation locks down some decisions and Paizo won't want resonance locked down yet. They will want flexibility in changing details that prove problematic in the playtest. And the playtest reports may offer a flavorful interpretation worthy of the Core Rulebook.
For me, Pathfinder 1E is more than satisfactory at creating a narratively reasonable world.
For me, the universal application of resonance creates a significant disruption in that narrative stability which is deeply unappealing. Nothing in 10 years of PF1E has been anywhere close to a deal breaker.
Narratives thrive on obstacles. Yet some obstacles are more glorious than others.
Most players want to invent their own narratives that are not about petty obstacles. They don't want to fight against bookkeeping conventions in creating those narratives. Resonance started as a notion to reduce those bookkeeping conventions. Not having to worry whether some magic items are out of uses per day reduces bookkeeping. Not having to sell an amulet because everyone already wears one. Not stocking up on 1st-level wands of Cure Light Wounds because a more respectible wand of Cure Critical Wounds is not as economical.
Conserving resonance for an emergency healing potion is an awkward petty drama. However, it is weightier drama than the tiny bookkeeping necessities of PF1. Unfortunately, the extra weight is also harder to sweep under the rug--for example, ignoring that the party is using the cheapest healing solution--when it interferes with the player's narrative.
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Well, the various kids in Crusader Road, Plague of Shadows and Winter Witch are complete novices and not particularly charismatic. So level 1 and +0. Any time they use more than one item in a day (not just 'a chapter') would seem to qualify.
I can't find a single reference to any of the 'young people' using consumables in either Winter Witch or Crusader's Road, and I just did a word search on them for 'wand', 'potion', and 'scroll'. There might be one or two worded oddly, but certainly not enough to strain Resonance.
Meanwhile, in Plague of Shadows, Kellius is specified as being able to cast lightning bolt, and is thus 5th level at a minimum, and might even have Cha of 12+ (he's noted as likable). He's inexperienced compared to the protagonist, not 1st level or anything, and he's the lowest level main character, and uses consumables something like 4 times in the whole book.
Regardless, though, I'm comfortable with the idea that Resonance just doesn't mesh with the setting or the genre. That they didn't even bother trying in two articles, and simply go with the explanation that it comes from the Occult Anachronisms and Mechanical Messes book doesn't help.
Because the Blog posts almost never deal with the thematic and in-setting justifications for anything. The book may well, and we'll certainly get such an explanation eventually, but we got absolutely no such explanations at all in any Blog but the spells one.
Don't assume that because we haven't had a detailed explanation that there isn't one.
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The precursor for the idea of resonance comes from the Alchemist description in the Advanced Player's Guide. Arguably, resonance has been a thing brewing for as long as Pathfinder has been Pathfinder.
Indeed. 'Personal magical field' is right there in the Alchemist description, and as good a justification for Resonance as anything else. There've also always been the items you need to wait 24 hours to 'attune' and I can't think of any explanations for that which don't involve at least as much thought as Resonance explanations.
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Yes, but in PF1 alchemist is a clearly a magical class, almost all of his abilities are supernatural. Now the fighter is also magical, which wasn't true before, baring specific archetypes.
The precursor for the idea of resonance comes from the Alchemist description in the Advanced Player's Guide. Arguably, resonance has been a thing brewing for as long as Pathfinder has been Pathfinder.
Would that be the following line from the introduction?
Rather than cast magic like a spellcaster, the alchemist captures his own magic potential within liquids and extracts he creates, infusing his chemicals with virulent power to grant him impressive skill with poisons, explosives, and all manner of self-transformative magic.
I figured that magic was covered by the alchemist's extract slots. The alchemist's bombs seem closer to resonance:
Bomb (Su): In addition to magical extracts, alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies. An alchemist can use a number of bombs each day equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier.
I wonder whether PF2 alchemist's bombs will use resonance, use spell points, or stay the same at "a number of bombs each day equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier." If it switches to resonance, then the alchemist's resonance will equal his level + Int, the same as before but with more demands on it. Let's check the previews:
... Not only does he gain more access to alchemical tricks, by way of advanced alchemy and the quick alchemy action, but he can also spend resonance to create alchemical objects on the fly, though such hasty concoctions are potent for only a short period.
Crafting is all well and good, but what about bombing potential? The alchemist's bombs are now the basic alchemical items you are familiar with: things like alchemist fire, thunderstones, acid flasks and so on. He crafts these items and lobs them. At 3rd level, he gains the empower bomb feature, which allows him to multiply the damage of the bombs he creates. This multiplier increases with level until it reaches six times the alchemical bomb's base damage at 19th level.
Bombs
This category will be familiar territory for those of you currently playing Pathfinder. Alchemist's fire, liquid ice, and bottled lightning have been a mainstay for low-level alchemists and other characters over the years. In the Pathfinder Playtest, these items are the baselines for alchemical bombs. While the base bombs deal a relatively low amount of damage, the advanced alchemy class feature allows the alchemist to infuse them with extra power according to the alchemist's level. While these powerful bombs are unstable (losing potency in either 24 hours or after a round, depending on how the alchemist crafted them), during that limited time they can pack a punch. For instance, here's bottled lightning.
Some hints, but I am still unsure whether bombs use resonance. An alchemist can spend resonance to create alchemical items on the fly, which fits the inner magic power interpretation but seems very different from how other classes use resonance.
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Yes, but in PF1 alchemist is a clearly a magical class, almost all of his abilities are supernatural. Now the fighter is also magical, which wasn't true before, baring specific archetypes.
The Fighter still needed to wait 24 hours for a Belt of Mighty Constitution to effect him as a permanent bonus, and had something causing the third magic ring he put on not to work. Something was causing those interactions.
Resonance changes those facts, but I don't think it's any weirder or 'more magical' than they were.
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The precursor for the idea of resonance comes from the Alchemist description in the Advanced Player's Guide. Arguably, resonance has been a thing brewing for as long as Pathfinder has been Pathfinder.Indeed. 'Personal magical field' is right there in the Alchemist description, and as good a justification for Resonance as anything else. There've also always been the items you need to wait 24 hours to 'attune' and I can't think of any explanations for that which don't involve at least as much thought as Resonance explanations.
I was thinking of 'infusing these substances with magic siphoned from his aura', specifically.
An alchemist is magical because he knows how to manipulate the magic in his aura.
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Would that be the following line from the introduction?
The real establishing line is actually from Extracts:
"When an alchemist mixes an extract, he infuses the chemicals and reagents in the extract with magic siphoned from his own magical aura. An extract immediately becomes inert if it leaves the alchemist's possession, reactivating as soon as it returns to his keeping"
The short version being a non-spellcaster having a 'magical aura'.
I was thinking of 'infusing these substances with magic siphoned from his aura', specifically.The precursor for the idea of resonance comes from the Alchemist description in the Advanced Player's Guide. Arguably, resonance has been a thing brewing for as long as Pathfinder has been Pathfinder.Indeed. 'Personal magical field' is right there in the Alchemist description, and as good a justification for Resonance as anything else. There've also always been the items you need to wait 24 hours to 'attune' and I can't think of any explanations for that which don't involve at least as much thought as Resonance explanations.
Yup. That's the line. I was misremembering exact wording.
The precursor for the idea of resonance comes from the Alchemist description in the Advanced Player's Guide. Arguably, resonance has been a thing brewing for as long as Pathfinder has been Pathfinder.Indeed. 'Personal magical field' is right there in the Alchemist description, and as good a justification for Resonance as anything else. There've also always been the items you need to wait 24 hours to 'attune' and I can't think of any explanations for that which don't involve at least as much thought as Resonance explanations.
Though attune is a solid interpretation of the 24-hour requirement on some PF1 magic items, they don't say "attune."
Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn.
As I said under interpretation (0), I made up my own explanations for how magic items in PF1 worked. I think we all do.
The real establishing line is actually from Extracts:
"When an alchemist mixes an extract, he infuses the chemicals and reagents in the extract with magic siphoned from his own magical aura. An extract immediately becomes inert if it leaves the alchemist's possession, reactivating as soon as it returns to his keeping"
The short version being a non-spellcaster having a 'magical aura'.
I am bewildered by the turnabout on the alchemist's relationship with magic items from PF1 to PF2. The ruling in PF1 is that an alchemist is not a spellcaster so the class does not qualify for the magic items crafting feats. The only exception is Brew Potion because the alchemist's Brew Potion class feat says, "The alchemist does not need to meet the prerequisites for this feat."
But in PF2, we have a solid possibility that the alchemist's magical aura is the basis for most magic items.
And the alchemist still does not count as a spellcaster in PF2; instead, non-casters can craft magic items.
I'm probably just going to run resonance as a combination of innate and accumulated external (kinda like absorbed background radiation with all the new experiences of adventuring against magic robots and such) forces, being able to bond an item into those fields or whatnot (investment) or siphoning off some energy like a spark.For me, it seems easier to just have the gods decree that everyone has been doing it wrong up to this point and that now there are new arbitrary rule that make magic items unreliable. If you beg the gods, they'll allow you to use a few if your lucky but they might not.
Seems as logical as anything else. At least that explains why cha matters. :P
I mean, you joke but most of the gods in my campaign (probably going to port the pantheon over by this point because I'm a bit attached) are notoriously amoral, capricious, and prone to causing the world to tear itself apart on a whim so this would make perfect sense. The current goddess of magic even suffers from blatant cases of favouritism.
I mean, you joke but most of the gods in my campaign (probably going to port the pantheon over by this point because I'm a bit attached) are notoriously amoral, capricious, and prone to causing the world to tear itself apart on a whim so this would make perfect sense. The current goddess of magic even suffers from blatant cases of favouritism.I'm probably just going to run resonance as a combination of innate and accumulated external (kinda like absorbed background radiation with all the new experiences of adventuring against magic robots and such) forces, being able to bond an item into those fields or whatnot (investment) or siphoning off some energy like a spark.For me, it seems easier to just have the gods decree that everyone has been doing it wrong up to this point and that now there are new arbitrary rule that make magic items unreliable. If you beg the gods, they'll allow you to use a few if your lucky but they might not.
Seems as logical as anything else. At least that explains why cha matters. :P
Who said I was joking? Seems a better explanation for why items suddenly act differently than before than 'magic aura's flaring up' or 'after thousands of years, mortals have NOW built up a tolerance to magic items'. Clearly some outside source upended the universe...