Look into the Dragonheir Scion Fighter archetype, and the Eldritch Scrapper Sorcerer archetype.
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If your GM could make an exception and allow Advanced Class Guide content, the Bloodrager makes for a fantastic starting point for a Dragon Disciple. Full base attack bonus, a special version of the Draconic bloodline that continues to scale with DD levels, and all of the weapon and armor proficiency stuff you need to make this melee character work. Your spells will feel vestigial but you'll beat face with the best of 'em.
Starting with Sorcerer makes it so your base attack bonus and starting hit points are dangerously low for a proper melee character. Plus, you can't reasonably wear armor due to Sorcerer casting.
Dragonheir Scion is from Legacy of Dragons.
Eldritch Scrapper is from Advanced Class Guide.
Together they are the Dragon Disciple that everyone seems to be looking for.
Eldritch Heritage feats exist, too, if you want to go that route.
Also look at archivesofnethys.com if you want to check something out without buying books.
Four levels of Primalist Bloodrager, one level of Eldritch Scrapper Sorcerer... That gives you your 5 ranks in Know:Arcana, your ability to cast a spell without preparation, two rage powers, and Martial Flexibility.
I would consider taking the single level of Eldritch Scrapper first for Martial Flexibility as soon as possible. And compared to one level of Sorcerer, the next four levels of Bloodrager will be like a prestige all of its own.
Bloodrager can use medium armor without worrying about it getting in the way of casting, so definitely capitalize on that with some Mithral breastplate when you can afford it.
Weapons depend on what you want, but I don't think this build has the feats for TWF, so I would either go with greatsword/Elven Curveblade or a bardiche/Elven Branched Spear, depending if you go strength or dexterity.
Keep it simple with Power Attack and Furious Focus as your base combat feats, maybe some battlefield control feats of you use a reach weapon. Dirty Fighting, Improved/Greater Trip is how I would approach a reach build with a bardiche/branched spear. Martial Flexibility should be able to pick up anything else you might need.
You will probably want Still Spell so you can cast with both hands on a weapon. And maybe some Eldritch Heritage feats for flavor with the whole Dragon Disciple thing, meeting the charisma requirements shouldn't be a problem.
The most important thing to remember is that a good DD is (usually) a melee build, so your ability scores, feats, class, and spell choices should all go towards that goal.
The easiest advice I have is to focus on strength (which both bloodrager and DD help with), choose a two handed weapon (great sword is the best damage-wise, but the choice isn’t too important), and take the power attack feat. I would also advise against taking more than 4 levels of DD.
Another good choice for dragon disciple is to add in a few levels of paladin. This takes a higher level of system know how than sorcerer or bloodrager (because now you have to have at least three different classes - paladin, spontaneous caster and DD), but the payoff can be great. It also opens up some nice RP opportunities; I have a friend who built such a character, and its whole deal was the struggle between its evil dragon ancestry and its faith.
Yes, there is a trident, but it doesn't have reach.
People jump ship after four levels of Dragon Disciple because you get the Strength bonuses and apparently nothing else matters. If you do leave after 4 levels of Dragon Disciple, I would go back to Primalist Bloodrager, not Paladin, personally. Or Skald if you're feeling squirrelly.
1. Eldritch Scrapper Sorcerer
2. - 5. Primalist Bloodrager
6. - 9. Dragon Disciple
10. - 20. Fated Champion or Spell Warrior Skald
You can be fully Strength and Charisma based, RAGE, spontaneous spell casting, and Bardic Performance to help your party. Ditch the Eldritch Heritage feats for Extra Rage Power feats. You are essentially a very useful Barbarian, definitely the most useful Dragon Disciple.
Half Elves and Half Orcs both get extra rounds of Ragingsong as favored class bonuses for Skald. Humans get extra spells as their FCB for Skald. Half Orcs and Humans get extra rounds of Bloodrage for their FCB if you go back to Primalist Bloodrager after Dragon Disciple.
Another popular build is a two level dip into paladin. This is mainly to get CHA to saves, but also gives you Smite Evil once a day and lay on hands. It also gives you proficiency with heavy armor and martial weapons. This also allows you to use wands that are on the paladin’s spell list. Being able to use wands of cure light wounds is always useful.
Smite Evil may not seem like that big of a deal because you will only be getting +2 to damage. But it also gives you CHA to hit and AC as well as bypassing all DR. It is not weapon dependent so you can use with your claws and bite. Since you will only get one Smite Evil it will not be something you use often, but when used against the BBEG it will be very effective.
Rage is something that you activate to gain bonuses to strength, which makes your attack and damage go up. It's considered to be one of the best tricks martial characters can use to be high damage output machines.
Both the Bloodrager and the Skald gain access to the Barbarian Rage ability. Both gives you spells you can use whilst in Rage. The Skald offers additional Rage songs you can use to buff your party and further buff yourself.
The one level of Eldritch Scrapper Sorcerer was for Martial Flexibility, which allows you to choose and use Combat Feats you haven't taken but qualify for. It's a very versatile thing to have, but may not be worth the level compared to two levels of Paladin.
1.-2. Paladin
3.-6. Primalist Bloodrager
7.-10. Dragon Disciple
11.-20. Fate's Champion or Spell Warrior Skald
You give up Martial Flexibility for Charisma to saving throws, Smite Evil, better hit dice, better BAB, and an alignment restriction.
You don't have to go Skald afterwards if you don't want to mess with buffing the party through Rage songs. You can pick up Primalist Bloodrager right where you left off and continue that until the end just as easily. Whatever you choose to go into after Dragon Disciple should probably be your favored class, though.
A Half Orc with the Shaman's Apprentice and Sacred Tattoo alternative racial abilities, with the Fate's Favored trait would start the game with +2 Luck bonus to all saves, and the Endurance feat (you can sleep in your armor). Plus proficiency with the Falchion, which is a decent 2H weapon. You can pick Keen Scent as a feat later on so no one can hide from you.
You have options.
For the two rage powers Primalist will give you before you prestige into Dragon Disciple, I highly recommend Savage Intuition and No Escape.
If you want to use a reach weapon, then choose Savage Intuition and Lesser Fiend Totem. The lesser Fiend Totem power gifts you horns and a gore attack, to threaten inside of reach. If you go this route, I would advise you stay Bloodrager after Dragon Disciple. Later rage powers to compliment this would be Disembowling Tusks and Boar's Charge. That makes your gore attack automatically threaten to critical, and does Constitution damage on a confirmed critical. Pretty gnarly for a backup attack.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about, I chose to skip the gore attack because Dragon Disciple gives you a bite attack:
Half Orc
Shaman's Apprentice = Endurance Feat
Sacred Tattoo = +1 Luck bonus to saves
Traits:
Fate's Favored = all luck bonuses increase by 1
Magical Knack: Bloodrager = +2 caster levels
Favored Class: Bloodrager, FCB: +1 round of Bloodrage
Weapon: Bardiche or anything with reach
Paladin (any archetype that doesn't give up Divine Grace)
1. Power Attack
2. You get Divine Grace = + Charisma modifier to saves
Bloodrager (Primalist)
3. Dirty Fighting
4. You get Uncanny Dodge
5. Improved Trip
6. You get Eschew Materials and two rage powers:
.. Savage Intuition
.. Intimidating Glare
Dragon Disciple
7. Natural Armor +1, Greater Trip for your feat
8. Strength +2, bloodline feat of your choosing
9. Breath Weapon, feat of your choosing
10. Natural Armor +1, Strength +2
Bloodrager (Primalist)
11. Improved Uncanny Dodge, feat of your choosing
12. Bloodline feat of your choosing
13. Damage Reduction 1, feat of your choosing
14. Two rage powers:
.. Battle Roar
.. Terrifying Howl
15. Bloodline feat, and feat of your choosing
16. Damage Reduction 2
17. Greater Bloodrage, feat of your choosing
18. Bloodline feat, and two rage powers:
.. No Escape
.. Come Get Me
19. Damage Reduction 3, feat of your choosing
20. Indomitable Will
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how many levels of blood rager should i go before i go dragon disciple?If your GM could make an exception and allow Advanced Class Guide content, the Bloodrager makes for a fantastic starting point for a Dragon Disciple. Full base attack bonus, a special version of the Draconic bloodline that continues to scale with DD levels, and all of the weapon and armor proficiency stuff you need to make this melee character work. Your spells will feel vestigial but you'll beat face with the best of 'em.
Starting with Sorcerer makes it so your base attack bonus and starting hit points are dangerously low for a proper melee character. Plus, you can't reasonably wear armor due to Sorcerer casting.
As many as you want. As long as the number you want is 5 or more.
But my advice (if you still want to go the simplistic route of only Bloodrager and DD levels) is to get 5 for the ranks in Knowledge Arcana and then move on to your desired prestige class. The 6th level of Bloodrager doesn't get you much, and going as far as 7 means you're delaying your prestige class.
Oh, and going more than 4 levels in Dragon Disciple is still pretty fun. The 5th level gets you Blindsense, which is fairly useful, and the stat boosts from other levels (as well as the wings) means you've still got some decent treats.
The Monk/Sorcerer build you mentioned earlier uses the Scaled Fist Monk archetype to get Charisma to AC. You don’t have to worry about spells failing due to armor because you don’t wear any.
Another option to look at would be the Eldritch Scion Magus. It does limit your use of Spell Combat until you hit 8th level, but you get the magus goodies.
As for why people recommend only getting 4 levels of DD, you lose another spellcasting level at five. It’s a significant loss for little gain.
Finally, there’s some difference of opinion on how DD works with bloodrager. DD calls out as stacking with your sorcerer levels. If you go Bloodrager, you don’t technically have sorcerer levels. Your DM may let you stack your bloodrager levels instead.
Well a variant you could go is Paladin (Any Archtype) and then Steelblooded Bloodrager archtype to nullify the armor problem entirely (casting magic in heavy armor with Bloodrager spells). And then go into Dragon disciple from there.
I'm currently playing a bloodrager/dragon disciple with a focus on strength and natural attacks. It's a lot if fun. I took an archetype that boosted my claw damage dice (rage shaper I think). I think staying with dragon disciple after lvl 4 is good, you get blind sense, form of the dragon, and other stat boosts which are pretty neato.
jeez that looks and sounds all types of the right type of angryHere's an example of what I'm talking about, I chose to skip the gore attack because Dragon Disciple gives you a bite attack:
Half Orc
Shaman's Apprentice = Endurance Feat
Sacred Tattoo = +1 Luck bonus to savesTraits:
Fate's Favored = all luck bonuses increase by 1
Magical Knack: Bloodrager = +2 caster levelsFavored Class: Bloodrager, FCB: +1 round of Bloodrage
Weapon: Bardiche or anything with reach
Paladin (any archetype that doesn't give up Divine Grace)
1. Power Attack
2. You get Divine Grace = + Charisma modifier to saves
Bloodrager (Primalist)
3. Dirty Fighting
4. You get Uncanny Dodge
5. Improved Trip
6. You get Eschew Materials and two rage powers:
.. Savage Intuition
.. Intimidating Glare
Dragon Disciple
7. Natural Armor +1, Greater Trip for your feat
8. Strength +2, bloodline feat of your choosing
9. Breath Weapon, feat of your choosing
10. Natural Armor +1, Strength +2
Bloodrager (Primalist)
11. Improved Uncanny Dodge, feat of your choosing
12. Bloodline feat of your choosing
13. Damage Reduction 1, feat of your choosing
14. Two rage powers:
.. Battle Roar
.. Terrifying Howl
15. Bloodline feat, and feat of your choosing
16. Damage Reduction 2
17. Greater Bloodrage, feat of your choosing
18. Bloodline feat, and two rage powers:
.. No Escape
.. Come Get Me
19. Damage Reduction 3, feat of your choosing
20. Indomitable Will
With this build you can take Intimidating Prowess at level 9 to add your Dragon-Disciple/Rage-increased Strength modifier to your Intimidate checks to compliment Battle Roar and Terrifying Howl at 14.
Use 13/15/17 feats for Extra Rage feats to pick up the three Beast Totem Rage Powers to get Pounce.
You can wear Adamantium medium armor with a Mithral buckler, plus cast spells at only -1 caster level due to Magical Knack, you can debuff without magic using Intimidation as a move action, you have excellent saves with natural armor AND damage reduction, and you still offer some decent battlefield control via trip. Everything feeds off the same two stats, Strength and Charisma, benefiting from Dragon Disciple and Bloodrage. Keeps you mostly full BAB, except for Dragon Disciple levels, and a D10+ hit die throughout.
Now one character can't be expected to do everything, but this one can do what is expected of a Dragon Disciple, for sure. Haste, Fly, Heroism everyone loves that. Color Spray, Ear Piercing Scream earlier, Wall of Fire/Ice/Sound later. Lots of versatility sticking with Bloodrager and only two levels of Paladin. Grab what benefits you most from Dragon Disciple and get back into your favored class.
A big part of your choices is what levels you’re expecting to play at. I mostly play PFS, which gets up to 11, so I don’t take more than 4 levels of DD, since you lose spellcasting and a bab point. But if you get to higher levels advancing your bloodline powers becomes way more important.
Some other points to keep in mind:
It might make sense to take 1 level of sorcerer since their spell progression is faster than bloodrager (and that way the DD levels give you a more potent spell progression);
I wouldn’t advise taking both bloodrager and skald, since their rage abilities don’t work together. Better to pick one or the other;
Everyone in this thread have offered you a lot of great, complicated ideas and options. This is just your second character, in a home game. You probably don’t need to be 100% optimized and preplanned. Feel free to do something simple with just a base class and DD, instead of a 4/5 multiclass monstrosity, and take the advancements one level at a time (or not; I like monstrosities).
1.-2. Paladin
3.-6. Bloodrager
7.-10. Dragon Disciple
11.-20. Bloodrager
That's not TOO bad as far as multiclassing monstrosities goes. You only give up 1 BAB point and only lose 1 caster level if you take the Magical Knack trait. The debuff and control offered by intimidation and Great Trip should be enough versatility to keep you relevant.
Dragonheir Scion gets Arcane Strike as a supernatural ability, bypassing prerequisites. I would argue that as such you get the increases with level in the class, but there is no guarantee in the writing. You can add your Dragon damage type to it later in the class, though, so maybe the base Arcane Strike supernatural ability never increases. Who knows?
I really only brought it up for flavor purposes. It does give Know: Arcana as a class skill, and the Draconic bloodline. Both excellent for a Dragon Disciple build.
I have some Dragonheir Scion Fighter/Crossblooded (Infernal) Tiefling Sorcerers gestalted together for Dragon Disciple NPC's. But that's an entirely different animal.
Bloodrager is full BAB and meets the prerequisites with ease. It's a natural candidate for the Dragon Disciple Prestige Class.
Two levels of Paladin for the saves, worth it, you lose nothing with the Magical Knack trait.
Done deal, in my opinion. I've never played a Dragon Disciple, though. Just built the gestalt NPC's and seen how well the strength bonuses help out a Intimidating Prowess build. Getting the strength bonus of rage and the rage power to intimidate as a move action is just an added plus from being a Bloodrager.
It's a prerequisite for the class, not a foundation.
I don't see that bloodline being any better than the plethora of character options available via rage powers.
Just my opinion, though.
You can still take bloodline powers instead of rage powers with Primalist...
With the Paladin, you simply take the copper Dragon bloodline for acid, obviously.
If intimidation isn't working in your campaign, you are free to pick up a different level 9 feat, and either a bloodline power or two different rage powers at 14.
You already have big boy power with a reach weapon and greater trip for literally everything you see eye to eye with.
You could take the Eldritch Heritage feats instead of intimidation stuff for Orc Blooded and get more bonuses to strength and the ability to grow in size to large... scary.
Options exist.
Half Orc
Shaman's Apprentice = Endurance Feat
Sacred Tattoo = +1 Luck bonus to saves
Traits:
Fate's Favored = all luck bonuses increase by 1
Magical Knack: Bloodrager = +2 caster levels
Favored Class: Bloodrager, FCB: +1 round of Bloodrage
Weapon: Bardiche or anything with reach
Paladin (any archetype that doesn't give up Divine Grace)
1. Power Attack
2. You get Divine Grace = + Charisma modifier to saves
Bloodrager (Primalist)
3. Dirty Fighting
4. You get Uncanny Dodge
5. Improved Trip
6. You get Eschew Materials and two rage powers:
.. Savage Intuition
.. Beast Totem, lesser
Dragon Disciple
7. Natural Armor +1, Greater Trip for your feat
8. Strength +2, bloodline feat of your choosing
9. Breath Weapon, Eldritch Heritage: Orc
10. Natural Armor +1, Strength +2
Bloodrager (Primalist)
11. Improved Uncanny Dodge, Improved Eldritch Heritage: Orc
12. Bloodline feat of your choosing
13. Damage Reduction 1, feat of your choosing
14. Two rage powers:
.. Beast Totem
.. Powerful Blow
15. Bloodline feat, and feat of your choosing
16. Damage Reduction 2
17. Greater Bloodrage, Greater Eldritch Heritage: Orc
18. Bloodline feat, and two rage powers:
.. No Escape
.. Beast Totem, greater
19. Damage Reduction 3, feat of your choosing
20. Indomitable Will
Pounce, grow large, incredible strength bonuses... oh my.
I think it might be more interesting if the draconic heritage is of an evil dragon, that way there’s tension between the characters beliefs and choices and their ancestry.
I think it might be more interesting if the draconic heritage is of an evil dragon, that way there’s tension between the characters beliefs and choices and their ancestry.
That would be cool with the Eldritch Heritage feats and Orc Bloodline. The Dragon and Orc heritages are competing for dominance of your bloodline, I think it could make for a really interesting character.
Plus the Eldritch Heritage Orc Bloodline is insane with additional strength bonuses and the ability to grow to size large right about the same time you get Pounce.
Black Dragon works well for this concept. It can really add some depth to the backstory as well as the role playing opportunities for you.