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I just wanna put in a word to say that Seoni's new outfit from the playtest cover looks awesome! I love the big billowy cape! And the fact that she has trousers now. It just looks more practical (and less likely to result in frostbite) while still keeping the flair.
I may be looking at a different version of the playtest cover than you are but on WAR's facebook page her outfit is the same as ever, except for the cloak, which i assume is just there because they're on a frozen mountain.
Yeah the cloak is new (you can see it better on the play-test adventure cover), but what what looks like trousers is actually her tattoos glowing red.
EDIT: But in agreement, that cloak looks really cool! :)
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I'm looking forward to it a lot. I'm so cold...
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More seriously though, while I liked Seoni's original design a lot*, I'm a huge fan of capes and big swirly cloaks. So I look forward to getting a decent look at her new outfit. ^_^
*Though I like her even more when she's being played by Valeros. (Just look a little to the left.)
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Damn i thought those were trousers. Can they be trousers? Please? Like I get the whole no armour thing, sure, but bare legs in wilderness? Come on, thats just weird. We never see Ezren in shorts.
Actually, Ezren in shorts, Sandals and socks would be great. Lets have that!
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But we do see Seltiyel bare-chested all the time. Seoni is proud of her tattoos and shows them off, they are part of her identity as much as they are of her arcane ability, so covering her up would go against her character just as much as having kyra running around in a similarly revealing outfit would go against hers.
And again I postulate that the cloak is only a conceit to make the outfit look more sensible in the cold weather environment. On the 1srt edition playtest cover she was also given a cloak, then it was a fur cloak. That didn't make it into the Core Rulebook illustration of her either.
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Im cool with the bare arms, dont get me wrong. Im saying that Seoni, a character usually depicted as smart and tactical would probably own something less likely to get her legs cut to ribbons on a mountain. I also have issue with Seytliel and Sajan, for the record. Seytliel does look substantially less likely to die of exposure though.
I personally find both her and Amiri's designs to be among the worst Paizo have put out. And theres absolutely precedent for art of Seoni in a full robe. It was in mythic adventures, and it honestly made Seoni look amazing.
But lets say that the cloak is a concession to the cold. That means Seoni decided to put on a big heavy billowing cloak to stay warm...wglhile keeping about a third of her skin exposed to the elements. Thats...bizarre. if you saw someone do that you would question it.
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That's your preference. Mine is what we have right now. I like how these characters look despite practicality. And I think its alright to have some characters be a little more exposed for reasons of sex appeal as long as its done for both genders. And it's not like unarmored pants are going to help seoni against sword blows and dragon claws. Since she's a sorcerer we won't see her in armor anytime soon.
Also i have just flipped through Mythic Adventures to find the art you were talking about and I only found pictures of seoni wearing even less than her regular appearance.
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I will say I have seen more then one person immediately turned off from Pathfinder by the art for female characters especially the art for Seoni. I think that if we're doing a new edition, now would seem the perfect time to rethink some baseline assumptions about how character art is presented. Seoni's design is what, 12, 13 years old? The world has changed. The hobby has changed and damn if the demographics havent changed too.
Maybe just maybe its time for some of the art to change with it. Im not saying a fundamental redesign is neccesary. But maybe we can take a frank examination of some old choices and update.
On the cover of the playtest adventure, Ms. S isn't showing of all the cleavage that's in most of the depictions of her. But she's still definitely got all the leg on display. Her face in that illustration is the best I've seen -- more determination and character, less come-hither.
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Alright look Im not particularly feeli a long debate over the internet aboutt things like false equivalence, microagressions etc. I like the big cloak. Its billowy, and I think sorcerers should have big cloaks that billow in the backdraft of theor magic explosions. It looked like she was wearing leggings which I appreciated since I think that it looks more practical, and the fact that one of the characters regularly went into battle in a glorified evening dress was silly. Apparently I was wrong, and that disappoints me. Thats all Ive got.
Theres a nice change, shame we couldnt go a little further with it.
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Damn i thought those were trousers. Can they be trousers? Please? Like I get the whole no armour thing, sure, but bare legs in wilderness? Come on, thats just weird. We never see Ezren in shorts.
Endure Elements is a thing.
That's your preference. Mine is what we have right now. I like how these characters look despite practicality. And I think its alright to have some characters be a little more exposed for reasons of sex appeal as long as its done for both genders. And it's not like unarmored pants are going to help seoni against sword blows and dragon claws. Since she's a sorcerer we won't see her in armor anytime soon.It's not so much armor against sword blows and dragon claws. It's "Completely impractical even for walking in the woods not expecting to be attacked by anything."
Practicality is not a concern for any of these characters. The fact that almost everyone (but especially amiri) is carrying oversized and/or badly designed weapons and armor makes that abundantly clear.
Seelah, harsk, alain, balazar, feiya, (i forget the names of the iconic oracle and alchemist) are all wearing outfits with plenty of opportunity to get snagged on vegetation. And i havent even gone into the hybrid class iconics. Just take a look at shardra.
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One small thought: its Seoni and Valeros on the cover. They are in a real way the "first impression" art wise. It says something about the game that the iconic scene they choose is a male character in full armour and a female character dressed for the red carpet. I think it is only fair to ask paizo, a company that by all accounts is very progressive in its field why theyve made this choice and what it says about them, intentional or not.
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One small thought: its Seoni and Valeros on the cover. They are in a real way the "first impression" art wise. It says something about the game that the iconic scene they choose is a male character in full armour and a female character dressed for the red carpet. I think it is only fair to ask paizo, a company that by all accounts is very progressive in its field why theyve made this choice and what it says about them, intentional or not.
Fair enough. My money is on an in-house tradition. They've been on the covers for both the PFRPG and the 3.5 World Guides and the PFRPG CRB, and yes I agree that can send a certain first expression if you choose to view it through that lens. I think they just inadvertently became the cover pair. But looking at the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting cover and comparing it with all the ones after it, they have made strides representing seoni.
I will say I have seen more then one person immediately turned off from Pathfinder by the art for female characters especially the art for Seoni. I think that if we're doing a new edition, now would seem the perfect time to rethink some baseline assumptions about how character art is presented. Seoni's design is what, 12, 13 years old? The world has changed. The hobby has changed and damn if the demographics havent changed too.
Maybe just maybe its time for some of the art to change with it. Im not saying a fundamental redesign is neccesary. But maybe we can take a frank examination of some old choices and update.
I could not possibly disagree with this sentiment more then I do.
IF Paizo does want to rethink Seoni's outfit (which does not appear to be the case), then it should be looked at in terms of her Varisian culture not someone's opinion of modesty.
I'm going to be honest and say that I really, really like Seoni's legs.
But yeah, she should put on some pants when it's cold. Don't want to develop Red Sonja syndrome here, where looks take precedence over survival.
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I think itd be cool if all the iconics had different outfits for different social situations. Give them an outfit for social situations or interacting with nobility, and outfit for adventuring or for travelling in. People dont wear the same thing for all situations. We could have iconics in formal wear... think of the potential
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That's your preference. Mine is what we have right now. I like how these characters look despite practicality. And I think its alright to have some characters be a little more exposed for reasons of sex appeal as long as its done for both genders. And it's not like unarmored pants are going to help seoni against sword blows and dragon claws. Since she's a sorcerer we won't see her in armor anytime soon.It's not so much armor against sword blows and dragon claws. It's "Completely impractical even for walking in the woods not expecting to be attacked by anything."
I mean just the ticks and burrs alone...
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One small thought: its Seoni and Valeros on the cover. They are in a real way the "first impression" art wise. It says something about the game that the iconic scene they choose is a male character in full armour and a female character dressed for the red carpet. I think it is only fair to ask paizo, a company that by all accounts is very progressive in its field why theyve made this choice and what it says about them, intentional or not.Fair enough. My money is on an in-house tradition. They've been on the covers for both the PFRPG and the 3.5 World Guides and the PFRPG CRB, and yes I agree that can send a certain first expression if you choose to view it through that lens. I think they just inadvertently became the cover pair. But looking at the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting cover and comparing it with all the ones after it, they have made strides representing seoni.
I should probably take a step back from the playtest threads until the test itself actually starts, but this thread has, unfortunately, caught my eye. (Perhaps in the wake of the “ancestry” thing that mercifully got quashed quickly, and, elsewhere, the horror of feminine pronouns not attached to female iconics in the rulebooks.)
I don’t have particularly strong feelings about Seoni’s design as such, but I think I can see where Elegos is coming from. I really like how Paizo works to make their iconics who are easily read as “sexy” less unnerving: not confining it to one gender, including in-world explanations that these are choices freely made and embraced by the characters, and so on. That said, I know that because I’ve been playing Pathfinder so long, remember the original “Meet the Iconics” posts and such, and I can imagine my instinct if I hadn’t, and any number of other factors.
Of course there’s endure elements, of course pretty much all the iconics are weirdly kitted-out, (For the record, I would love to see realistic armour and amounts of gear on everyone: I prefer other extraordinary implausibilities to my fantasy games.), of course the accidents of history have made Seoni and Valeros the cover girl and boy for Pathfinder… But if we want to shake things up for the new edition, why can’t Seltyiel or Sajan be the poster iconic for “There is sexy handled well and maturely in this game,” or sexy not boil down, in visual terms, to impractical garb for adventuring? What could we do so that a time-warp/alternate-reality Qunnessaa new to Pathfinder and not particularly inclined to mine the website or comics or whatever for backstory would be less likely to conclude, “Oh, look. Another game happy to rehash 'manly-man warrior dudes' and 'spell-caster chicks,' the latter in even more improbable poses and outfits. At least it’s not a chainmail bikini?” Yes, we also have Seelah, and Kyra, and yes, things have got better, but do we have to stop aiming for best?
(And I say this as a woman for whom Seoni’s concept works, pretty much, whereas Seltyiel and Sajan leave her cold. Which is another quibble itself: I don’t think my personal preferences make that much of a difference in how easy it is to read what’s meant to be sexy.)
Sorry for the wall of text, and I hope it’s not too rant-y. Like I said, I’m going to try to step back from the playtest threads for a while after this, but I’ll happily read private messages if anyone feels a burning urge to respond: I don’t want to just disappear after posting here.
Also: I would love to see what all the iconics think of as formal wear. :)
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Just jumping in to say that I would love to see iconics in other outfits. Not radically different, mind, but their classic outfits for other circumstances.
Damn i thought those were trousers. Can they be trousers? Please? Like I get the whole no armour thing, sure, but bare legs in wilderness?
Bruh. BRUH. You don't know how Sorcerers work, do you?
Sorcerers cast spells.
Endure Elements and Mage Armor are both on their spell list with ridiculous levels of duration.
Sorcerers have plenty of spells per day, usually as much or more than Wizards, and can cast them without too much risk, even in the lower levels.
Boom, there you have it. She's very easily protected from the atypical elements and any disruptive vegetation from minor cuts and scrapes for at least 1 hour, probably much longer than any typical "15 minute adventuring day" that can be expected from the higher level games.
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Threeshades said everything I'd have wanted to.
It's okay to have some sexy-looking characters. Even girls. Even on the cover.
It's okay for Seoni, as a character to choose to look sexy, or just to wanting to show her tattoos. Countless people choose that every day. It's not like she's an empty-headed bambi the party keeps around just for the ammount of skin showed, quite the opposite, she's smart and cool-headed and highly competent.
Magic makes most of the environmental stuff irrelevant for her.
She's also aesthetically pleasing, which isn1t a bad thing.
So, I'll say, go Seoni! :D
Seriously, the girl is my favorite iconic since the comics and her looks are not the primary parts of that by far. They are a part of it, sure, but most importatnly I just like her personality.
Though, honestly, because I value realism, I'd like to see pictures about her struggling with her outfit in particularly bad environments (maybe it was done somewhere in the comics, or in a book, I dunno) to show that yeah, she knows it's impractical but doesn't care.
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One small thought: its Seoni and Valeros on the cover. They are in a real way the "first impression" art wise. It says something about the game that the iconic scene they choose is a male character in full armour and a female character dressed for the red carpet. I think it is only fair to ask paizo, a company that by all accounts is very progressive in its field why theyve made this choice and what it says about them, intentional or not.Fair enough. My money is on an in-house tradition. They've been on the covers for both the PFRPG and the 3.5 World Guides and the PFRPG CRB, and yes I agree that can send a certain first expression if you choose to view it through that lens. I think they just inadvertently became the cover pair. But looking at the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting cover and comparing it with all the ones after it, they have made strides representing seoni.
That is in fact the correct explanation for putting Seoni and Valeros on the cover. And the goblin alchemist is there to show you that this is something new. The white dragon is there to show you that this is also something old.
I'm going to add in that she still looks amazing even with the cleavage gone. The red dress still bares her arms and legs to show the tattoos, but now is less overtly sexual in appearance. Bravo!
Where can I find the new art?
We don't have a clear, high-res picture yet, but Seoni is very prominently on the cover of the Playtest Adventure Pack. The graphics on the Playtest Intro Page just above the pictures of the three playtest products scrolls up and down, showing her in detail. Check it out!
Where can I find the new art?
