2bz2p |
4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Trouble from outright contradicting rules is no more evident than Scribe Scroll and Magic Item creation rules.
Scribe Scroll itself says the creator must know the spell to scribe it, even says it in the general description. But, create magic items rules allow for another spell caster to assist you in crafting magic items. A lot of people here in the forum take that as meaning a cleric with scribe scroll can write up a fireball scroll if their sorcerer buddy who can cast the spell is sitting next to them. I disagree, I think Scribe scroll was only meant to scribe a spell you actually know or have in your head.
I can see the foundation of their argument, I just don't believe it was ever meant to apply to scribing scrolls. If enough of us demand a FAQ, maybe we can get a solid ruling on this!
Anguish |
Trouble from outright contradicting rules is no more evident than Scribe Scroll and Magic Item creation rules.
Scribe Scroll itself says the creator must know the spell to scribe it, even says it in the general description. But, create magic items rules allow for another spell caster to assist you in crafting magic items. A lot of people here in the forum take that as meaning a cleric with scribe scroll can write up a fireball scroll if their sorcerer buddy who can cast the spell is sitting next to them. I disagree, I think Scribe scroll was only meant to scribe a spell you actually know or have in your head.
I can see the foundation of their argument, I just don't believe it was ever meant to apply to scribing scrolls. If enough of us demand a FAQ, maybe we can get a solid ruling on this!
Doesn't matter. You can omit any of the "requirements" for crafting something by increasing the Spellcraft DC by 5. The only requirement requirement is the appropriate feat.
My point being is that no FAQ answer is really required. The difference between "your sorcerer buddy can help you" and "your sorcerer buddy cannot help you" is literally 5 on the DC.
The odds of Paizo dedicating time to answering a question that boils down to that... are poor.
I'd recommend that finding a way to acquire a magic item that grants +5 to Spellcraft checks (such an item should cost 2,500gp by the way) is the best way to make this point moot.
Tim Emrick |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Java Man and blahpers are correct.
To quote the Magic Item Creation rules in the PRD (emphasis mine):
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
And per the Using Items rules, scrolls are spell completion items. Therefore, you need to know the spell yourself in order to make a scroll of it.
The rules are crystal clear on this point, so no FAQ is needed.
Jeraa |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Requirements: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind.
A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator's level must be known.
No mention whatsoever of only applying to certain item types. A spell prerequisite for any magic item can be met by a second person or a magic item supplying the spell.
blahpers |
Jeraa's quote meshes well with Tim's. I'm pretty sure that (a) someone/something else can provide the spell for a scroll so long as it's provided, but (b) someone/something must provide it--no +5-foolery.
...Yes, this means you could, e.g., scribe a scroll by UMD-ing a wand to provide the prerequsite. Which is weird, but no weirder than using a spell-like ability to meet said prerequisite.
dragonhunterq |
While it can technically be done, it can get messy with scrolls though because of:
a) The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
b) The user must have the spell on her class list.
If a cleric creates a scroll, with a wizard providing <the wizard only spell of choice (WOSC)> you have a divine scroll of WOSC that nobody can cast without jumping through hoops. So be careful.
(it's a divine scroll so wizard can't cast it, it's a spell not on the cleric class list so they can't cast it).when I started this I thought I would need WOSC more than I actually needed it, so it stays even though it's not as efficient as I hoped
Jeraa |
While it can technically be done, it can get messy with scrolls though because of:
Activating a Scroll wrote:a) The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
b) The user must have the spell on her class list.
If a cleric creates a scroll, with a wizard providing <the wizard only spell of choice (WOSC)> you have a divine scroll of WOSC that nobody can cast without jumping through hoops. So be careful.
(it's a divine scroll so wizard can't cast it, it's a spell not on the cleric class list so they can't cast it).
It would depend on who is considered the crafter. The section I quoted before also contains:
It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator's level must be known.
The same would likely also apply to something like this. The crafter in this case would be whoever supplied the spell, regardless of who supplied the feat. I don't think anything says that the person supplying the feat must be the one considered the crafter.
Though it isn't like that particular situation would come up. Why would the cleric even be involved? The wizard has the feat and the spell, what use is the cleric? The opposite situation (cleric with a spell, wizard with the feat) would result in the cleric being considered the crafter and a divine scroll being made.
James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies |
dragonhunterq |
dragonhunterq wrote:While it can technically be done, it can get messy with scrolls though because of:
Activating a Scroll wrote:a) The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
b) The user must have the spell on her class list.
If a cleric creates a scroll, with a wizard providing <the wizard only spell of choice (WOSC)> you have a divine scroll of WOSC that nobody can cast without jumping through hoops. So be careful.
(it's a divine scroll so wizard can't cast it, it's a spell not on the cleric class list so they can't cast it).It would depend on who is considered the crafter. The section I quoted before also contains:
Quote:It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator's level must be known.
The same would likely also apply to something like this. The crafter in this case would be whoever supplied the spell, regardless of who supplied the feat. I don't think anything says that the person supplying the feat must be the one considered the crafter.
Though itisn't like that particular situation would come up. Why would the cleric even be involved? The wizard has the feat and the spell, what use is the cleric? The opposite situation (cleric with a spell, wizard with the feat) would result in the cleric being considered the crafter and a dive scroll being made.
I'm gonna have to disagree, rules only do what they say they do, that clause only and specifically applies to the caster level of the item.
The various feats all allow YOU to create magic items. You are the crafter unless there is an exception clause, such as this.
But yeah wizard crafter with cleric only spell would be a better example.
taks |
The only way this would ever matter is in games that are not part of organized play, so why does it matter? I realize this is the rules forum, but conflicting and/or amviguous rules are always up to interpretation. It becomes rule 0 by default if the answer isn't obvious.
Tim Emrick |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Jeraa's quote meshes well with Tim's.
Not really. Jeraa quoted part of the Magic Item Descriptions text (CRB 460-461). That section is not nearly as comprehensive as the Magic Item Creation rules (CRB 548-553), so general rules in the former should not be given precedence over specific rules in the latter. (Pathfinder is an exceptions-based system. Specific exceptions always trump general rules.)
Both the Magic Item Creation rules and the text of the Brew Potion, Craft Wand, and Scribe Scroll feats are explicit about the crafter needing to know/prepare the spells stored in those items. (Craft Staff merely says "whose prerequisites you meet," but the Creating Staves section uses the same language as the other items.)
In addition, all item creation feats include the text, "See the magic item creation rules in Chapter 15 for more information." That's pretty clearly a reference to pp. 548-553, not pp. 460-461 (and the index agrees).
I don't think I can make it much clearer than that.
2bz2p |
blahpers wrote:Jeraa's quote meshes well with Tim's.Not really. Jeraa quoted part of the Magic Item Descriptions text (CRB 460-461). That section is not nearly as comprehensive as the Magic Item Creation rules (CRB 548-553), so general rules in the former should not be given precedence over specific rules in the latter. (Pathfinder is an exceptions-based system. Specific exceptions always trump general rules.)
Both the Magic Item Creation rules and the text of the Brew Potion, Craft Wand, and Scribe Scroll feats are explicit about the crafter needing to know/prepare the spells stored in those items. (Craft Staff merely says "whose prerequisites you meet," but the Creating Staves section uses the same language as the other items.)
In addition, all item creation feats include the text, "See the magic item creation rules in Chapter 15 for more information." That's pretty clearly a reference to pp. 548-553, not pp. 460-461 (and the index agrees).
I don't think I can make it much clearer than that.
So, to the original question, are are saying, "No - you can only scribe a scroll of a spell you know/have in your memory"?
Sara Marie Customer Service Manager |
2bz2p |
You can't add 5 to the DC, but someone else can supply the spell. There is dev commentary on this. I'll try to find it when I get home.
Would appreciate that. I still enforce, as Tim M said, that you cannot write a scroll unless you know/have memorized the spell in my games, but would open the door if there was a FAQ on it saying you can write another casters spells (with the +5DC).
James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies |
wraithstrike |
wraithstrike wrote:You can't add 5 to the DC, but someone else can supply the spell. There is dev commentary on this. I'll try to find it when I get home.yes, correct
Yeah, that's what I was looking for.