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I was reading magic item creation rules and hit this line:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
So if I am creating a scroll, and I don't know the spell, but have a buddy with me who does, can I do the writing and he does the casting? for an increased DC of +5, like wise, could I scribe a divine scroll for +10 increase to the DC (wrong class, not have the spell?)
My question here is also assuming that it isn't a spell-trigger or spell-completion magic item, which it seems like it should be, but I couldn't find verbiage in the PRD to support/refute that.
I think that scrolls are spell completion magic items so IMO no you can't scribe it if you don't have the spell BUT if you have a buddy with the spell then you can scribe it no problem (and you don't have to take the +5 on the spellcraft DC).
Nope, via the spell completion item clause.
What's tricky is that its questionable if you can scribe a scroll that SOMEONE ELSE can cast, since you are technically meeting the prerequisite. RAI i believe is now but the raw is a little blurry.
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I think that scrolls are spell completion magic items so IMO no you can't scribe it if you don't have the spell BUT if you have a buddy with the spell then you can scribe it no problem (and you don't have to take the +5 on the spellcraft DC).
The buddy in question is a sorcerer... So he doesn't have scribe scroll, nor a spellbook...
I think by RAI this is wrong, but I couldn't find raw to support that it is a spell completion magic item (I could be blind...)
I think that scrolls are spell completion magic items so IMO no you can't scribe it if you don't have the spell BUT if you have a buddy with the spell then you can scribe it no problem (and you don't have to take the +5 on the spellcraft DC).The buddy in question is a sorcerer... So he doesn't have scribe scroll, nor a spellbook...
I think by RAI this is wrong, but I couldn't find raw to support that it is a spell completion magic item (I could be blind...)
If he doesn't have the feat then how does he want to create a magic scroll?
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If he doesn't have the feat then how does he want to create a magic scroll?I think that scrolls are spell completion magic items so IMO no you can't scribe it if you don't have the spell BUT if you have a buddy with the spell then you can scribe it no problem (and you don't have to take the +5 on the spellcraft DC).The buddy in question is a sorcerer... So he doesn't have scribe scroll, nor a spellbook...
I think by RAI this is wrong, but I couldn't find raw to support that it is a spell completion magic item (I could be blind...)
I'm a wizard, he is a sorcerer, I want to create a scroll of a spell he knows. I have the feat and not the spell, he has the spell and not the feat, I think by raw we are able to do this, even if it wasn't what was intended.
I'm a wizard, he is a sorcerer, I want to create a scroll of a spell he knows. I have the feat and not the spell, he has the spell and not the feat, I think by raw we are able to do this, even if it wasn't what was intended.
Oh now i get it. Yes you can do that.
Why do you think that this wasn't intended?
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I'm a wizard, he is a sorcerer, I want to create a scroll of a spell he knows. I have the feat and not the spell, he has the spell and not the feat, I think by raw we are able to do this, even if it wasn't what was intended.
At my table I would rule no, but I have no idea if by RAW you can or not. This leads to too many wonky things, IMO. Such as if a wizard can scribe a scroll of a spell a sorcerer knows, can he also write said spell into his spell book if its one he doesn't know? Again, this is merely personal interpretation and how it would work at my table. Take that for what its worth (not very much :) )
At my table I would rule no, but I have no idea if by RAW you can or not. This leads to too many wonky things, IMO. Such as if a wizard can scribe a scroll of a spell a sorcerer knows, can he also write said spell into his spell book if its one he doesn't know? Again, this is merely personal interpretation and how it would work at my table. Take that for what its worth (not very much :) )
Why would any wizard do that? It's gonna cost him so much more.
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Why would any wizard do that? It's gonna cost him so much more.
At my table I would rule no, but I have no idea if by RAW you can or not. This leads to too many wonky things, IMO. Such as if a wizard can scribe a scroll of a spell a sorcerer knows, can he also write said spell into his spell book if its one he doesn't know? Again, this is merely personal interpretation and how it would work at my table. Take that for what its worth (not very much :) )
Not so much more, scribing a 1st level scroll will cost him 12.5 gold, and then copying it into his spell book another 10. Outright buying the scroll would cost him 25 + 10 to scribe, the third option is finding a spell caster who will let him copy it from a book, that typically costs 50% of the cost of scribing so 10 +5.
So 22.5 for my way
35 for buying a scroll and copying it
and 15 for borrowing a spell book.
Clearly the latter is the cheapest, but this way isn't the worst.
I'm a wizard, he is a sorcerer, I want to create a scroll of a spell he knows. I have the feat and not the spell, he has the spell and not the feat, I think by raw we are able to do this, even if it wasn't what was intended.
Why not skip the whole debate and go buy the spell, copy it into your book and start making scrolls.
hmmm...
Could you learn the spell from watching your friend cast it? Does a wizard need a written formula to learn a spell (and write it in his book) or can he learn a spell by observation? If you can write a scroll with your friends help, then you should be able to learn the spell from observation.
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You can also refer to this huge mess of an argument that never got resolved by a dev.
My ruling was no, you cannot, since there is a specific rule that overrides a general rule.
my final addition to that conversation:
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created.(General Rule) Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the items's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory.(Specific Rule) In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
In the end, it's all up to the GM. Rule how you think works best and keeps the game fun for everyone. That's what it is all about(after the hokie pokie)
**EDIT**
My deciding factor was if a wizard could scribe cure light wounds from a bard, then he could scribe it in his spellbook, which in turn puts cure light wounds in the wizards spell list. That broke everything because now the wizard has access to every spell in the game, so it was ruled he could not.
Could you learn the spell from watching your friend cast it? Does a wizard need a written formula to learn a spell (and write it in his book) or can he learn a spell by observation? If you can write a scroll with your friends help, then you should be able to learn the spell from observation.
+1
Have your wizard learn the spell from the sorcerer and then scribe it.
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Could you learn the spell from watching your friend cast it? Does a wizard need a written formula to learn a spell (and write it in his book) or can he learn a spell by observation? If you can write a scroll with your friends help, then you should be able to learn the spell from observation.+1
Have your wizard learn the spell from the sorcerer and then scribe it.
I don't think by RAW a sorcerer can "teach" a wizard a spell. You need to a) copy from a scroll b) copy from a spell book c) research the spell. The research cost is 1000/level...
Think of it like this - I have Craft Wondrous Items and I am a wizard. I get my cleric buddy to help. I can now craft items using my divine friend to help me meet the pre-requisites.
I don't see how these are different mechanically. I don't see why a wizard and a sorcerer can't do this.
However, there are some issues. Take a wizard and a summoner teaming up. I scribe a 2nd level spell and the summoner casts Haste. Now, can I (as the wizard) scribe it into my spellbook as a 2nd level spell?
Same can be said for a Bard's arcane Cure Light Wounds.
My ruling with a DM hat it would not be allowed since RAW, the crafting of a scroll says the creator must cast the spell.
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Think of it like this - I have Craft Wondrous Items and I am a wizard. I get my cleric buddy to help. I can now craft items using my divine friend to help me meet the pre-requisites.
I don't see how these are different mechanically. I don't see why a wizard and a sorcerer can't do this.
Because specific rules always trump general ones and there is a specific rule that says you cannot craft spell-trigger or spell-completion items unless you meet the requisites.
However, there are some issues. Take a wizard and a summoner teaming up. I scribe a 2nd level spell and the summoner casts Haste. Now, can I (as the wizard) scribe it into my spellbook as a 2nd level spell?
Same can be said for a Bard's arcane Cure Light Wounds.
My ruling with a DM hat would be that the spell must be on the wizard's spell list.
Where do you see that a Summoner has early access to Haste? Under the researching a new spell rules, there is no reason to require a spell to already be on the caster's spell list. However, if it is, you cannot circumvent the spell list by "learning" the spell from a caster, who by class, has early access to it.
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Because specific rules always trump general ones and there is a specific rule that says you cannot craft spell-trigger or spell-completion items unless you meet the requisites.
That is kind of the crux of it, by my reading there is no explicit rule that says Scrolls are spell completion or spell trigger. I only read the scroll section of the rules, but I couldn't find it.
Where do you see that a Summoner has early access to Haste?
In the APG: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/spell-lists---summone r#TOC-2nd-Level-Summoner-Spells
I concur that in looking at the RAW, you cannot partner to create scrolls from what I can see. Nice reference TK!
My ruling was no, you cannot, since there is a specific rule that overrides a general rule.
my final addition to that conversation:
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created.(General Rule) Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the items's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory.(Specific Rule) In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
if a wizard could scribe cure light wounds from a bard, then he could scribe it in his spellbook, which in turn puts cure light wounds in the wizards spell list. That broke everything because now the wizard has access to every spell in the game, so it was ruled he could not.
+1. RAW. This is it.
Otherwise it is a house rule.
[QUOTE=]
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. (Specific Rule) Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the items's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). (General Rule)The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory.(Specific Rule) In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
Again depending on which DM you ask, how they read the rules, and depending on which rules they consider General rules and which rules they consider specific rules. The answer may very between DM.
I read it as. Scroll need someone to be able to cast the spell... but a cleric and wizard can work together (as long as they BOTH spend the time together), to crate a scroll of cure light wounds.
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(Until we see an errant/FAQ on this subject, there is 5 different ways to read the rules, and all are RAW at this time) - DM take your pick -
Here is another thread were is was debated better.
RULE ON CREATING SCROLLS AND USING SOMEONE ELSE'S SPELLS
Think of it like this - I have Craft Wondrous Items and I am a wizard. I get my cleric buddy to help. I can now craft items using my divine friend to help me meet the pre-requisites.
I don't see how these are different mechanically. I don't see why a wizard and a sorcerer can't do this.
However, there are some issues. Take a wizard and a summoner teaming up. I scribe a 2nd level spell and the summoner casts Haste. Now, can I (as the wizard) scribe it into my spellbook as a 2nd level spell?
Same can be said for a Bard's arcane Cure Light Wounds.
My ruling with a DM hat it would not be allowed since RAW, the crafting of a scroll says the creator must cast the spell.
Just because you can make the scroll with help doesn't mean it's on your spell list. Yes (IMHO) a wizard and a bard working together can make a scroll of CLW, but the wizard can't turn around and scribe it. Would you let him scribe any bard scroll he ran across in his book? I think not.
The Wizard preps the inks and paper, gives the bard some instructions, and the bard casts the spell. end result one scroll.
As for different spell levels but having it on the list: If he wants to scribe it into his book, I'd let him -- at the level it should be for his class, not on the scroll.
I don't see this as game breaking, and the RAW vs RAI is fuzzy enough I think it's firmly in "Ask your DM" land.
I know how I'd call it, but YMMV...
Again depending on which DM you ask, how they read the rules, and depending on which rules they consider General rules and which rules they consider specific rules. The answer may very between DM.I read it as. Scroll need someone to be able to cast the spell... but a cleric and wizard can work together (as long as they BOTH spend the time together), to crate a scroll of cure light wounds.
McShade...really, dude. Why do you have such a problem with the RAW. You completely disregard and ignore the RAW and the RAI.
What part of "you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites" is there to misinterpret.
Are you saying that scrolls are not spell-completion items? Is it that "You" can be interpreted as two people (if it's in the CRB, "you" would mean the person reading, that's English 101)? I mean, do you have a problem with the way the developers wrote it? Or are you just someone who wants to be unrestricted in game play by the "rules" and make munchkins?
Under your definition, a cleric could help a wizard write Cure Light Wounds in the wizard's spellbook.
Generally if you do not know the spell then you can not scribe the scroll. However if you have access to the spell through another source (wand, scroll, Sorcerer buddy) you can use that source to fulfill the “knowing the spell” requirement for you.
It does seem a little weird to me, if I hadn’t looked it up I would have just said “No you can’t.” But scribing a scroll is creating a magic item, and the rules for creating a magic item state that if you don’t meet all the requirements for creating a magic item you can have some one help you who does.
I once had a cleric help me make good luck coins for my group. I had the item creation feat but couldn’t cast the bless spell.
If you had the cleric help you make a scroll of bless you would not be able to cast it because it is not on the Wizard spell list though.
Your stones were not spell-completion items. There are different rules for creating use-activated and spell-trigger/completion (scrolls)items.
Worst part is i can see 5 different way to look at it.
..................................A) Potions, wand, and Scroll = Require the person with the feat also be the only one to cast the spells needed. (Does not apply to Staves)
B) Potions, Wand, Staves, and Scroll = Require the person with the feat also be the only one to cast the spells needed.
C) Wands, Staves and Scroll = Require the person with the feat also be the only one to cast the spells needed. (Does not apply to potions)
D) All magic items can be created with help, and anyone helping can provide the spells.
E) All magic items require the person with the feat to also be the only one to cast the spells needed. (which mean the only help that someone can provide is like blacksmith or carpenter).
...................................
Depending on which rules you consider General, and which you consider Specific.
Like i said before, around and around we go, were we stop...is up to your individual Game Master to know.
Better debated on this tread
RULE ON CREATING SCROLLS AND USING SOMEONE ELSE'S SPELLS
The specific rules for creating scrolls say:
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
EDIT: hmmm... so does everything else.
The specific rules for creating scrolls say:
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed+1
The specific rules for creating scrolls say:
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)EDIT: hmmm... so does everything else.
Ya option E, results from that fact. The magic item section is a mess.
Selian said it all.
The general "prequisite" as defined in the preceeding sections does not equate to the specific "spell prerequisite" in the sections on spell completion and spell trigger. The logical fallacy committed is false premise. I agree with LazarX, Shar, and Goth.
Whoever said less is more....you can try to justify your attempt to create an exploit. Your campaign, your rules. As for logic, your attempt has failed.
I think you can have the wizard scribe the scroll for his friend just fine.
He can't, however, add a spell that's not on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list to his book, because it's not on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
By my understanding, he could add Haste from a scroll made by a Summoner, but it would be a 3rd level spell because that's what it is on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
PF phb = Page 549 = Magic item creation
"In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
PF phb = Page 460-461 = Magic item Descriptions = under requirements
"A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the cast of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of these objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary."
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So i take this to mean that 2 caster working together, can make a spell-trigger or spell-completion device, as long as one of them meets the Prerequisite.
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PS = Yes, clicked on that FAQ, and encourage all to do the same.
P-PS = On the subject of wizard learn a cleric spell from a scroll = NO = There is a rule that say you can not learn spells from scroll if the spell is not on your spell list. ( page 219 = Adding spells to a wizard's spell book = 2nd line first paragraph )
Let's read in order and breakdown the paragraph that everyone is having a problem with:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions.
All items have prerquisites. OK.
These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created.
The feats must be attained, the spells must be cast, levels must be attained (among others).
Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
The item's creator must know (be familiar with) the spell. Another magic item or spellcaster can assist the creator in crafting the item.
The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.
For every prereq the creator cannot meet (including casting the spells himself) you add +5 to the DC. So if the creator cannot cast the spell him self and uses another magic item or spellcaster, add 5 to the DC.
The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory.
The Item Creation feat must be attained before item creation can commence.
In addition (to the aforementioned exception),you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
Emphasis added is mine to define "In addition". This means the writer's meant to include "you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites" as part of the only exception to "The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet."
Can other casters help create magic items...yes, except for spell-completion and spell-trigger items.
Can they fill in prerequisites for magic item creation, even though they themselves do not have the item creation feat...yes, except for spell-completion and spell-trigger items.
PF phb = Page 549 = Magic item creation
"In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
PF phb = Page 460-461 = Magic item Descriptions = under requirements
"A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the cast of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of these objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.".............
So i take this to mean that 2 caster working together, can make a spell-trigger or spell-completion device, as long as one of them meets the Prerequisite.
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""In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.""
Is there because you have to provide the spell in spell form, and can not take +5 to the DC.
It does not mean you can not provide the spell form, from another source like from another caster. Two caster can work together to make spell-trigger and spell-completion device, as long as one is providing the spells that go into said device.
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So how many times is the RAW going to be quoted in this thread? It is clear that there are two opposite interpretations and the ongoing back-n-forth is bordering on the ridiculous. Just agree to disagree until the developers decide to drop in or this is clarified in the FAQ.
(1) By RAW, the creator must work alone on spell-trigger and spell-completions items.
(2) By RAW, multiple creators can work together to meet the prerequisites.
Make a ruling in your campaign as you feel appropriate and move on. Neither side is going to change the mind of those on the other side.
So how many times is the RAW going to be quoted in this thread? It is clear that there are two opposite interpretations and the ongoing back-n-forth is bordering on the ridiculous. Just agree to disagree until the developers decide to drop in or this is clarified in the FAQ.
(1) By RAW, the creator must work alone on spell-trigger and spell-completions items.
(2) By RAW, multiple creators can work together to meet the prerequisites.Make a ruling in your campaign as you feel appropriate and move on. Neither side is going to change the mind of those on the other side.
+1 agree to that
(but evil prospers when good men stand by and do nothing, sometimes you have to argue, so that other know that there are other points of view).
I never said my point of view is right, i said there are 5 different way to read the rules, let the DM decide.
Also, i am a stubborn bird, and refused to give into a Ragging anything.
**EDIT**
My deciding factor was if a wizard could scribe cure light wounds from a bard, then he could scribe it in his spellbook, which in turn puts cure light wounds in the wizards spell list. That broke everything because now the wizard has access to every spell in the game, so it was ruled he could not.
Uh, no, no he could not. Cure light wounds is not on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list. Thus, even if the Wizard scribed a scroll of it as a proxy for the party Bard, he still couldn't transfer it to his spell book. Spell lists for Wizards are immutable; nothing can change them. Nothing. There are classes in 3.5 that can add specific categories of spells to their spell lists, but the Wizard is not and never has been one of them.
i said there are 5 different way to read the rules
well you should stop reading them backwards. LOL
raging bump.
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Spell lists for Wizards are immutable; nothing can change them. Nothing. There are classes in 3.5 that can add specific categories of spells to their spell lists, but the Wizard is not and never has been one of them.
Not entirely true. Per the Independent Research rule, CRB p.219,
"A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one."Technically, with successful use of Spellcraft, Knowledge(arcana), cash, and time, any spell (including CLW) could be added to that particular wizard's spellbook.
Spell lists for Wizards are immutable; nothing can change them. Nothing. There are classes in 3.5 that can add specific categories of spells to their spell lists, but the Wizard is not and never has been one of them.Not entirely true. Per the Independent Research rule, CRB p.219,
"A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one."
Technically, with successful use of Spellcraft, Knowledge(arcana), cash, and time, any spell (including CLW) could be added to that particular wizard's spellbook.
That's also left solely up to the discretion of Rule 0 (GM fiat), and thus has no place in the rules forum. There is no class mechanic that says, yes, Wizards can automatically add this spell to his spell list at this level.
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That's also left solely up to the discretion of Rule 0 (GM fiat), and thus has no place in the rules forum. There is no class mechanic that says, yes, Wizards can automatically add this spell to his spell list at this level.
Just because a rule is left to the GM, doesn't make it any less applicable. Adding a spell through research is no more/less automatic than wanting to copy from another caster's book-also a GM fiat.
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General rules:
458
Scrolls are spell-completion items
461
Magic item Requirements: Certain requirements must be met...
These include spells...
A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has... or through the use of spell completion, spell trigger, or spell-like ability...
It is possible for me than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one more more of the prerequisites...
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator...
More General rules:
549
The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
Specific rules:
552
Creating Scrolls:
The creator must have prepared the spell or know the spell in the case of a spontaneous crafter...
Short-word:
You can ignore some prerequisites when crafting an item by raising the dc of the item. You cannot do this for the item-creation feat itself, or for spell-trigger or spell-completion magic items.
Item prerequisites can be provided by more than one person, but the people involved must select one person to be the crafter.
In the scenario of the original post, the Wizard could be the crafter, with the sorcerer providing the prerequisite spell.
OR
The sorcerer could be the crafter, with the wizard providing the prerequisite feat.
Understand that this is here so the wizard can't craft spells that no one in the party has access to, just to learn the spell from the scroll. If the party has access to the spell, then the wizard can learn it by crafting it *assuming it's on his spell list*
Adding a spell through research is no more/less automatic than wanting to copy from another caster's book-also a GM fiat.
Incorrect. There are specific rules that say, if you make this skill check, and the spell is in your spell list, you can add it to your book. There is no such rule for spell research; spell research is specifically left up to the GM to adjudicate and thus has absolutely no place in the Rules Forum where we discuss the rules of the game.
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Incorrect. There are specific rules that say, if you make this skill check, and the spell is in your spell list, you can add it to your book. There is no such rule for spell research; spell research is specifically left up to the GM to adjudicate and thus has absolutely no place in the Rules Forum where we discuss the rules of the game.
It's specifically listed in the CRB. That makes it a rule, just as any other. The fact that it doesn't specifically call out the DC for the checks is not relevant. The rules don't specifically define how to find a spellcaster who has a spell you want to copy nor the diplomacy/Intimidate check it will take to convince them to let you do it. The "suggestions" as to the cost of that action is no different than the "suggestions" as to the time/cost it takes to research a spell.
The fact that it doesn't specifically call out the DC for the checks is not relevant.
Not only does it not call out the DC for the check, it doesn't define anything about the concept. The number of checks, the duration of the process, the types of checks, the types of spells possible to create, etc etc ad nauseum. The only thing it defines is minimum price and minimum duration.
The rules don't specifically define how to find a spellcaster who has a spell you want to copy nor the diplomacy/Intimidate check it will take to convince them to let you do it.
That's because cooperation isn't required. You can kill the wizard and get his spellbook that way, or steal it, or any manner of other thing. That is all irrelevant to the rules. You're confusing rules and gameplay.
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"It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary."
A wizard and a cleric cooperating to craft a scroll of cure light wounds are, between the two of them, meeting all of the prerequisites for the item's creation. Thus, the "you cannot create this if you don't meet all the prerequisites" rule on page 549 does not apply, because "you" in the case of cooperative crafting is "the people involved in crafting the item."
These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. [...] In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
The second sentence is obviously trying to impose additional limitations.
However, if "you" refers to the cooperating team, then the second is purely redundant and does not add any additional limitations.
As such, it seems that "you" refers to the item creator and not a co-operating team, and thus, the Original Poster's scenario is not possible according to the RAW.
The quoted paragraph really needs a rewriting, though.
"It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary."A wizard and a cleric cooperating to craft a scroll of cure light wounds are, between the two of them, meeting all of the prerequisites for the item's creation. Thus, the "you cannot create this if you don't meet all the prerequisites" rule on page 549 does not apply, because "you" in the case of cooperative crafting is "the people involved in crafting the item."
Thank you very much.
Although in this specific example the scroll would be an arcane scroll of cure light wounds right?Meaning that only bards and withces could activate it without UMDing right?