You only allow 100 feats


Homebrew

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

There are only 100 feats allowed in the game for the players to choose from.

Paizo sources only.

What feats must stay in?

What feats must be cut?

Maybe through discussion we might aggregate a list of the 100 feats necessary to play the game.


Hmm If I had to choose Ill start with some easy ones
1.Power attack
2.Deadly aim
3.skill focus (any)
4.weapon focus
5.great fortitude
6.iron will
7.lighting reflexes.


This is homebrew so consider
Continuing Threat
Requirement, at least 5 hide(or stealth).
If a character attacks, then hides, they are considered flanking till they attack something else. Unless the target spots them out of range, they are still flanking.

Yes, this is a class feat for Rogues, and possibly Ninjas.


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I would actually argue things like Power Attack, Deadly Aim, and Combat expertise must just be given for free to make space for other feats.


J4RH34D wrote:
I would actually argue things like Power Attack, Deadly Aim, and Combat expertise must just be given for free to make space for other feats.

Fair enough. I could see it. I didn't think that was the purpose of the thread however.


I was thinking of it from a "You only want 100 feats to be pickable by your players? How do we make this work?"
Versus "If there were only 100 feats in the game, what should they be. What feats are essential to the game."


J4RH34D wrote:

I was thinking of it from a "You only want 100 feats to be pickable by your players? How do we make this work?"

Versus "If there were only 100 feats in the game, what should they be. What feats are essential to the game."

I see what your saying. I think the power attack mechanic is pretty essential to where almost everyone takes something similar. SO I could see just giving it to all martial. combat expertise is kind of weird but if your going to give them all PA might as well give them that too.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

For now, assume there can only be 100 feats total. No freebies. We can refine the idea further later. I don't want to take anything for granted.

I mean down the line we can do things like combine feat trees to perhaps auto-upgrade if you meet later prerequisites. Or combining feats that are so similar they may as well be one feat with a modular choice.

But for now it's a matter of picking the 100 essential feats from across the lines. What would a group of players who only have the CRB and Advanced Players Guide miss?

What would a group who have every hardcover and softcover do to whittle down to the most essential feat choices in the game?

Yes it's a bit of a scrum, a bit messy but at this stage I'd like to see a community brainstorm about what's important. The reason I put it in homebrew because a House Rule that says: You can only choose from this list of 100 feats is a pretty major house-rule.


Pick 40 general feats. Then add in 15 feats for each class group. Do this with an eye toward general utility, and pick few if any feats dedicated to a single class. Also consider backward compatibility, which will mean most are from the CRB.


Of course, for balance, I only allow 100 spells too. Paizo sources only.

I think some important ones would be:


  • Detect Magic
  • Prestidigitation
  • Cure Light Wounds
  • Shield
  • Invisibility
  • Restoration, Lesser
  • Fireball
  • Fly
  • Restoration
  • Wall Of Fire


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I feel like I'm the only one actually trying to make a list of feats.
Item creation feats seem pretty necessary.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

- Combat Expertise
- Improved Disarm
-- Greater Disarm
- Improved Feint
-- Greater Feint
- Improved Trip
-- Greater Trip

Wow, that right there is 7 feats! 7% of the total list eaten.

Scarab Sages

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

I can't see how this would be possible, without extensive combining of similar feats into single multi-choice entries.

Every feat is a 'useless' feat, to someone who isn't currently playing a PC reliant on it. And every feat is a 'niche' feat, to someone who didn't buy that particular sourcebook.

The rage that would erupt, from players told a feat from their prized build is even being considered disallowed, would crack the forums.

You only have to watch the responses to changes in PFS Additional Resources, to witness that.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
Snorter wrote:

I can't see how this would be possible, without extensive combining of similar feats into single multi-choice entries.

Every feat is a 'useless' feat, to someone who isn't currently playing a PC reliant on it. And every feat is a 'niche' feat, to someone who didn't buy that particular sourcebook.

The rage that would erupt, from players told a feat from their prized build is even being considered disallowed, would crack the forums.

You only have to watch the responses to changes in PFS Additional Resources, to witness that.

I'm not building 100 feats for PFS, I'm building 100 feats for the small sample size of players I have. What's most important?

I think modular:

Improved [Combat Maneuver] feats would be great.

Also Skill Synergy (From Starfinder) would be a great replacement for the various +2 to two related skills feats.


Discard Item creation feats. They should never be strictly necessary. Remove the sunder feats and anything necessary for feat-heavy builds (because they will not have enough of those feats anyway), Whirlwind Attack and any feat with a high prerequisite.

Scarab Sages

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Agree on the item creation feats.

They sound cool and powerful, but they are essentially just a way for a player to ensure they have the right gear for the vision of their character, instead of a grab bag of junk looted from victims along the campaign.

A GM can always ensure the PCs get the gear they want, by asking the players what's on their wish list, and putting that in the opponent's possession, or via the introduction of a robust in-game trading market, swapping items for others of equal net value, which is what the creation feats essentially do.

'Sell 20,000gp of unwanted crap for 10,000gp, use proceeds to make 20,000gp worth of custom gear' is functionally identical to 'Swap 20,000gp of unwanted crap for 20,000gp worth of custom gear.'.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Snorter wrote:

Agree on the item creation feats.

They sound cool and powerful, but they are essentially just a way for a player to ensure they have the right gear for the vision of their character, instead of a grab bag of junk looted from victims along the campaign.

A GM can always ensure the PCs get the gear they want, by asking the players what's on their wish list, and putting that in the opponent's possession, or via the introduction of a robust in-game trading market, swapping items for others of equal net value, which is what the creation feats essentially do.

'Sell 20,000gp of unwanted crap for 10,000gp, use proceeds to make 20,000gp worth of custom gear' is functionally identical to 'Swap 20,000gp of unwanted crap for 20,000gp worth of custom gear.'.

Alternatively (or in addition, for "fun" items), use the automatic bonus progression rules from Pathfinder Unchained.


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One feat, Master Craftsman. If they have the crafting skill, spells, and master craftsman, they can make the magic item. For the level restrictions, you can keep them, or throw them out the window.:)


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1.precise shot
2.improved precise shot
3.multi shot
4.rapid shot
5.weapon focus
6.greater weapon focus
7.weapon specialization
8.greater weapon specialization
9.empower spell
10.quicken spell
11.extend spell
12.heighten spell
13.dazing spell
14.elemental spell
15.intensify spell
16.craft wondrous items
17.craft arms and armor
18.craft rings
19.power attack
20.deadly aim
21.weapon finesse
21.armor focus
22.greater armor focus
23.shield focus
24.greater shield focus
25.iron will
26.improved iron will
26.great fortitude
27.improved great fortitude
28.improved initiative
29.dodge
30.advanced weapon training
31.advanced armor training
32.improved mercy
33.ultimate mercy
34.reach spell
35.skill focus
36.eldritch heritage
37.improved eldritch heritage
38.still spell
39.silent spell
40.combat reflexes
41.greater eldritch heritage
42.exotic weapon proficiency
43.noble scion
44.fey foundling
45.racial heritage
46.defiant luck
47.extra rage power
48.dragon style
49.dragon forocity
50.pummeling style
51.pummeling charge
52.improved unarmed strike
53.raging vitality
54.crusaders flurry
55.feral combat training
56.extra channel
57.extra lay on hands
58.boon companion
59.powerful shape
60.aspect of the beast
61.improved critical
62.disrouptive
63.cut from the air
64.weapon style mastery
65.smash from the air
66.spell breaker
67.throw anything
68.quick draw
69.ricochet toss
70.rapid reload
71.point blank shot
72.point blank master
73.cross bow master
74.shield master
75.shield slam
76.improved shield bash
77.two weapon fighting
78.improved two weapon fighting
79.greater two weapon fighting
80.word of healing
81.favored defence
82.extra rogue talent
83.extra evolution
84.superior summoning
85.augmented summoning
86.spell focus
87.greater spell focus
88.spell specilization
89.spontaneous metafocus
90.mages tatoo
91.extra hex
92.vital strike
93.improved vital strike
94.greater vital strike
95.selective channel
96.combat style master
97.furious focus
98.far shot
99.clustered shot
100.intimidating prowess


While most of that looks good, I'd probably drop a few to bring in Vital Strike and it's derivatives.

Edit: nevermind, starts at 93. multitasking is hard.


The Sideromancer wrote:
While most of that looks good, I'd probably drop a few to bring in Vital Strike and it's derivatives.

the vital strike chain is already on the list

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Wow Lady-J, that is incredible. I'll give it a comb-search when I get home tonight, but this is a fantastic starting point.


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personally i would either bump the list number to 200 or make it so racial and class based feats don't count towards the list but there's what i would have in a list that had to be 100


You could also tree it. Improved and greater skills are derivative and don't appear on the list. You could use the freed up space to put in 2 racial and 2 class feat placeholders.


Goth Guru wrote:
You could also tree it. Improved and greater skills are derivative and don't appear on the list. You could use the freed up space to put in 2 racial and 2 class feat placeholders.

what?


Sorry. Too 2 dimensional for you?
I'm looking for loopholes subconsciously. I have to hide the topic.


Yeah, love racial traits and feats. I always look at them first when choosing.


Paired Opportunists.

Holy smokes is that sucker broke if you know what you're doing.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
Slim Jim wrote:

Paired Opportunists.

Holy smokes is that sucker broke if you know what you're doing.

Is that an argument for inclusion or exclusion?


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:

Paired Opportunists.

Holy smokes is that sucker broke if you know what you're doing.

Is that an argument for inclusion or exclusion?

If a player showed up with a Hunter/Drill Sergeant/Cavalier wearing a Commander's Helm, with multiple completed Greater maneuver feat chains and fortuitous weaponry...

...well, let's just say that it's not necessary to play the game.

Boy, it sure is fun, though.

- - -

* If the idea behind restricting feats is to eliminate abuse potential that a GM is likely to face, then I'd get rid of the item creation feats (and incorporate PFS tweaks for those classes that normally get them), as well as the summoning feats (such-like being major contributors to martial-caster disparity). It'll let you keep an easier handle on your game without it immediately snowballing into superhero spandex.

* Getting rid of "Greater" anything will also tone down the novagasms, and open up several slots on the list.

* The feats that improve saving throws could be tossed. They're "dull" and not terribly beneficial until you've stepped up the chain for the reroll version. If your BSF needs will saves, multiclass a level of cleric and start with a wisdom higher than 10. And buy a cloak before you upgrade the sword.

* I would reserve three spots for "3-feat Style Chain (pick one)", thereby freeing up a lot of spots.

* Racial feats, up to two.

* Extra (Rage/Channel/Ki/Hex/Grit/etc) ...pick one.

* Mounted Combat + (up to two more with Mounted Combat as prerequisite; include Indomitable Mount as one of these choices)

Scarab Sages

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

I think the thread would benefit from clearing up the question of why this exercise is being floated.

Is it to remove perceived abusive combos?
Or is it to make the choosing and using of feats simpler, for new or inexperienced players?

Because the answers you get will differ, depending on what the thread readers assume you're asking.

Of course, some may fit both categories;
I may advise new players to avoid sundering abilities, because the rules for breaking objects are spread across three chapters, then the mods for magic items are in a fourth chapter,...it's an unintuitive mess, that slows play to a crawl.

But also, even if you did know the rules, they're bonkers.
Superhard materials don't work that way. In real life, I could grind my way through stone with a diamond-tipped saw, at millimetres per round, but a player can expect (with the rules to back him up), that he can sew diamond studs to his clothes, throw himself at a stone wall, and leave a perfect sillhouette, like in 'Tom and Jerry'.

Either way, it's borked to infinity, and it's one of those areas, like 'scrying allows safe teleports', where I tell players, 'Let's not go down that arms race. I'll not use it, if you don't.'.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

My intention was to choose the most important feats for a sustainable game, that makes the sheer number of feats more manageable.

So like all good pruning, it's a combination of removing unhealthy growths. Which is both broken/abusive combos AND useless, never used feats.

Sczarni

I'm all for cutting item creation feats entirely, and just ruling that crafting items is just a thing you can do. After all, there's a "Craft:_______" entry on the skills section; what is that there for if you need a feat too?

For metamagic feats, I'd say pick three or four. Maximize OR Intensify, Still OR Silent, Quicken, and one other one.

The biggest challenge here is long, multi-branched feat trees. The Combat Expertise tree, the Power Attack tree, the Point-Blank Shot tree, the Two-Weapon Fighting tree, the Critical Focus tree, the Improved Unarmed Strike tree, and the Weapon Focus tree are each taking a big chunk of our alloted space. For each one, we'd need to identify which feats we need and which ones are overly specialized. A few of them, especially Weapon Focus and Critical Focus, seem to exist only for the benefit of fighters having something to spend all their bonus feats on. But then fighters do need good combat feats, so we can't cut these trees TOO much.

Things like Fleet, Run, and the feats that grant +2 to two different skills are also prime to be cut. I've never wanted any of them, or seen any other build that did.


Lose any feats that augment casting, casters are already "better" so them losing feats is not game breaking. Martials _need_ feats, casters don't. That'll save lots of space on the list.


*Thelith wrote:
Lose any feats that augment casting, casters are already "better" so them losing feats is not game breaking. Martials _need_ feats, casters don't. That'll save lots of space on the list.

that depends entirely on the type of caster, some absolutely need feats while others not so much


Lady-J wrote:
*Thelith wrote:
Lose any feats that augment casting, casters are already "better" so them losing feats is not game breaking. Martials _need_ feats, casters don't. That'll save lots of space on the list.
that depends entirely on the type of caster, some absolutely need feats while others not so much

9th level spell casters don't need feats. Period.

Are they better with them? Obviously.

In an effort to simplify the feat list removing meta magic ones doesn't break casters. Removing martial feats can wreck them.


*Thelith wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
*Thelith wrote:
Lose any feats that augment casting, casters are already "better" so them losing feats is not game breaking. Martials _need_ feats, casters don't. That'll save lots of space on the list.
that depends entirely on the type of caster, some absolutely need feats while others not so much

9th level spell casters don't need feats. Period.

Are they better with them? Obviously.

In an effort to simplify the feat list removing meta magic ones doesn't break casters. Removing martial feats can wreck them.

blasters and conjurers most definitely do need feats, blasters rely on both metamagic feats and feats that boost caster level, and conjurers rely on their conjurer feat chain to have more capable summons, a blaster without feats is worse off then a fighter without feats because at least a fighter can still do decent damage over the course of the day


No feat fighter... 2d6 + 6 dmg....
No feat sorc 15d6 fireball.

Casters don't need feats like martials do.


*Thelith wrote:

No feat fighter... 2d6 + 6 dmg....

No feat sorc 15d6 fireball.

Casters don't need feats like martials do.

at 15th level a fighter will have 2d6+19(26 damage on average) on each attack with 3 attacks a round for an average of 78 per round near unlimited times per day.... were as the blaster will effectively have a fireball that does 7.5d6+15-22.5(depending on weather or not you are cross blooded) damage because as a blaster you have to make your build around the assumption the enemy with make their save for half damage which most things will, so an average of 41 damage if not crossblooded or 49 damage average with crossblooded with at most 36 times a day if all you do is burn spell slots for that fireball spell and have a great charisma score for bonus spells per day but the sorc will only have that built in intensify 4 times a day so every fireball after the 4th drops to 27 average damage non crossblooded and 32 damage average with crossblooded

Sczarni

Casters don't need feats like martials do, it's true, but they still get feat slots for leveling up. There needs to be SOMETHING they can take that actually matters.

Some "traditionally martial" feats are good for casters too. Quick Draw, since casters need a free hand but might suddenly need a weapon. Weapon Finesse, for touch attacks with spells. Combat Expertise, for the option to boost your AC for a round if you need it. I'd say it makes sense for about 10% of feats to be more for casters than martials (or at least general enough that anyone could get use out of them) and in this exercise, that means 10 feats-- the exact amount a non-human caster gets by Level 20.


Fireball can also hit 15 people...a sword cannot.

Skill focus, imp initiative, iron will, light reflexes, Dodge, etc, etc all benefit a caster.
Meta magic isn't needed and it helps to balance the martial/caster divide.


*Thelith wrote:

Fireball can also hit 15 people...a sword cannot.

Skill focus, imp initiative, iron will, light reflexes, Dodge, etc, etc all benefit a caster.
Meta magic isn't needed and it helps to balance the martial/caster divide.

with either enough time or the right class features a sword can and even if a fireball hits 15 people unless they are like level 2 enemies 27 damage to 15 people is nothing your better off just hiring a barbarian then having a featless blaster in the party


Several of the "deep feat chains" could and IMO should just be combined so that you get the improved/greater ability automatically at the appropriate BAB/caster level.
TWF, all maneuver feats, spell focus/specialization, weapon focus/specialization, the saving throw feats, and vital strike are just some of the feat chains that fall into this category.

Other feats that could be combined into a single feat are dodge/mobility; toughness/diehard; and precise shot/point-blank shot.

I'm fine with eliminating Item creation feats and allowing Master Craftsman to take their place. I mean, if it works for weapons and armor, why not for rings, and other items as well.

I'm also fine with losing metamagic feats, or at least limiting them to 5-6 slots on the list. I really like the way 5th edition DnD incorporated metamagic into the class features of the sorcerer class, so maybe that's something to consider.

all the "extra class feature" feats should be there, as well as at least a couple racial feats for each race allowed in the campaign. (I like to grant racial feats as bonus feats at 6th, 12th, and 18th level to reinforce the idea that your race means something and is relevant throughout your adventuring career).


What's this experiment intending to accomplish? You can play the game with any arbitrary subset of feats if you want to, so finding "the 100 feats necessary to play the game" doesn't really make sense as a goal. Besides, it begs the implied question that exactly 100 feats are necessary to play the game, which is unlikely even if you disregard the previous sentence.

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