Hello, we have a player in our game who is a metal gate Kineticist. They are attempting to use all three magnetic pinion attacks against one target instead of three separate ones. Ability text:
"Small pieces of metal fly from you, propelled with magnetism at great velocity. Make ranged impulse attack rolls against up to three creatures within 60 feet of you; you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your attack roll against any target wearing metal armor or made of metal. All three attacks count toward your multiple attack penalty, but it doesn't increase until after all the attacks. The metal pieces deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage and 1d4 piercing damage on a hit (or double damage on a critical hit)."
There isn't language preventing this. On the contrary, it states "up to three creatures" and then afterwards says "All three attacks".
I will add that this ability is not only 3 actions, but is also Overflow meaning it takes your entire turn with no movement and you lose your Kinetic Aura, using an action to recast next turn. This means this ability is only available every other turn.
I've ruled that this CAN target the same enemy with all three pinions as other cantrips/spells in other classes have very specific wording to note if the player can/cannot target the same enemy more than once.
First example is Slashing Gust: "You slash your hand through the air, channeling miniature ripples of air from each finger to slice your enemy. If you have two hands free, you can target two creatures with this spell; otherwise, you target one."
It clearly states it targets one creature per free hand and NOT two gusts against the same enemy.
Second example is Magic Missile: "You send a dart of force streaking toward a creature that you can see. It automatically hits and deals 1d4+1 force damage. For each additional action you use when Casting the Spell, increase the number of missiles you shoot by one, to a maximum of three missiles for 3 actions. You choose the target for each missile individually. If you shoot more than one missile at the same target, combine the damage before applying bonuses or penalties to damage, resistances, weaknesses, and so forth."
This clearly says that you CAN target the same target and adds no confusion.
Can we get an official ruling on Magnetic Pinions whether the wording means that it is meant for 3 separate targets or can all 3 attacks be used similar to magic missile against 1, 2, or 3 targets. Help is appreciated!
Additional Note: Metal Kineticist has so far been received in the community as the lowest tier of Single Gate with low damage or too niche abilities which gives me the belief that this early (level 1) ability was intended to help beef the Metal gate up to match where it lacks punch. If not, in my opinion, there isn't a good reason to take it at all. The composite feats for metal are even lacking.
Thanks!
If it is intended, it looks to me like an outlier. Same with Magic Missile.
You already mentioned Slashing Gust. I would add Scorching Ray to that list too. As well as some non-spell things like Swipe and Impossible Volley.
The final ruling is yours to make though.
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You make an attack against up to three enemies.
You don't make three attacks against up to 3 enemies.
The wording is set up in a way that allows you to attack less than 3 enemies, just in case you don't have three valid enemies. The only reason it is three attacks is because it's three targets, it's not three attacks that can target three creatures.
Basically, it's one attack per creature targeted, and it's "up to" to allow for less targets.
Also, they already revealed in the remaster preview that Magic Missile is being re-named to Force Barrage. It's still exactly the same spell.
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You make an attack against up to three enemies.
You don't make three attacks against up to 3 enemies.The wording is set up in a way that allows you to attack less than 3 enemies, just in case you don't have three valid enemies. The only reason it is three attacks is because it's three targets, it's not three attacks that can target three creatures.
Basically, it's one attack per creature targeted, and it's "up to" to allow for less targets.
Also, they already revealed in the remaster preview that Magic Missile is being re-named to Force Barrage. It's still exactly the same spell.
This is correct. The impulse does not allow for focusing 3 attacks on one target.
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You can have one, two or three targets. But the number of attacks that you're making is the same as the number if targets.
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Hmm… I think I’ll keep with the ruling I’ve made. Up to 3 doesn’t explicitly mean one attack per target. It says immediately after yo make ranged attack rolls (plural) then later “All three attacks” implying you always make three. Magic missile allows 1 action per missile but magnetic pinions is always three actions. I think that’s intentional.
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Whether it is intended or not is very debatable.
But what is most certainly RAW is the First Rule.
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If it were intended to be three attacks split how you choose, it would just say "Make 3 ranged impulse attacks" and not specify the number of targets. Since it specifically calls out the targets rather than the number of attacks, it's definitely intended to be one attack per target.
Also, on the topic of Magic Missile, all spells have a "Targets" line, and Magic Missile's says "1 creature". They need that additional text to allow for targeting multiple targets. You can't really compare that to this ability.
A better comparison would be something like Scorching Ray. For one action you can hit a single target, but each additional action adds a new target, and thus an additional attack roll. This ability is much closer to Scorching Ray, however since it's an Overflow ability it is always 3 actions instead of being variable.
Am I blind or I'm seeing a very obvious plural on the text?
Make ranged impulse attack rolls against up to three creatures within 60 feet of you;
Three attacks, against 1, 2 or 3 targets. No mystery.
Unlike Magic Missile, this is not autohit, it does physical damage, which is easier to resist and you do not combine them for the purposes of resistances and weaknesses. It's also a three actions overflow.
Seems decently balanced to me.
The issue is that doesn’t say you make up to 3 attacks, it says creatures. Then says all three attacks afterwards. I believe if it was restricting it to 1 attack per target, you’d see that specifically mentioned like Slashing Gust or Scorching Ray do. Comparing its ability to another spell/cantrip is a double edged sword. Just because it is similar doesn’t mean it’s the same. It’s similar to Scorching Ray and Magic Missile which have opposite rulings on targets. Magnetic Pinions is always three actions so I believe it’s always 3 attacks, or else why would it always cost three actions instead of 1 action per pinion. It would rarely be useable and when it is, the damage doesn’t compare other classes abilities or even it’s own elemental blasts.
I will wait to see if there’s an errata on this and in the meantime, rule it for the fun of the game. 24 damage for three actions isn’t game breaking, so far our martials did 20 in a single action, so I’d rather the player have fun.
Am I blind or I'm seeing a very obvious plural on the text?
Make ranged impulse attack rolls against up to three creatures within 60 feet of you;Three attacks, against 1, 2 or 3 targets. No mystery.
Unlike Magic Missile, this is not autohit, it does physical damage, which is easier to resist and you do not combine them for the purposes of resistances and weaknesses. It's also a three actions overflow.
Seems decently balanced to me.
Agreed! Good points.
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This is correct. The impulse does not allow for focusing 3 attacks on one target."up to three" means one, two, or three.
Right...
So yes, you can focus fire a single target. What do you think "up to three" means otherwise?
That doesn't follow at all! "Up to three" means up to three targets. Where does tripling the attack come in? That surely isn't mentioned in the text, and it definitely doesn't follow from being able to target multiple creatures!
"Up to" means it can be fewer.
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Yeah, I wouldn't expect Cowabunga_bro's ruling to be a common trend among people who are familiar with PF2 and know how stingy it is with allowing attacks with no MAP penalty - especially against the same target.
This clearly falls under the "too good to be true" rule.
By your ruling, for a level 1 impulse, I can do 3 attacks against the same target, with no map, which deals 2d4 damage per hit. So I can make 3 impulse attacks using my normal elemental blast with a range of 30 feet at +7/+2/-3 for 1d8 damage. OR I can spend the same three actions to hit a foe that is further away at a +7/+7/+7 for 2d4 damage.
A level 1 Creature with High AC has a 16. Meaning you hit on a 9/14/19 respectively.
4.5 x .50 + 4.5 x 2 x .1 = 3.15
4.5 x .3 + 4.5 x 2 x .05 = 1.8
4.5 x .05 + 4.5 x 2 x .05 = 0.675
for a total average damage of 5.625 damage per round.
With Magnetic Pinions instead I hit on a 9 or better every time.
2.5 x 2 x .50 + 2.5 x 2 x 2 x .1 = 3.5 x 3 = 10.5 average damage per round.
To compare, a Fighter with a longbow at level 1 hits on a 7/12/17
4.5 x .50 + (4.5 x 2 + 5.5) x .2 = 5.15
4.5 x .40 + (4.5 x 2 + 5.5) x .05 = 2.525
4.5 x .15 + (4.5 x 2 + 5.5) x .05 = 1.4
for an average of 9.075 damage per round, with a better to hit and a deadly d10 weapon.
tldr; it's too good to be true that the kineticis gets a level 1 impulse that is stronger than a level 1 fighter using a better weapon.
At level 5, our fighter is master with bows, and has +1 striking composite longbow. So they are rolling a +16/+11/+6 against a level 5 high AC creature (22) meaning they hit on a 6/11/16 respectively for 2d8+2 (4.5 x 2 + 2= 11).
11 x .50 + (11 x 2 + 5.5) x .25 = 12.375
11 x .45 + (11 x 2 + 5.5) x .05 = 6.775
11 x .20 + (11 x 2 + 5.5) x .05 = 3.575
Average per round of 22.725
Our kineticis has hit his second heightened on the impulse, meaning it deals 6d4 damage per hit. They are still only trained, but have a gate attenuator, so they are rolling a +12, Meaning they hit on a 10.
2.4 x 6 x .5 + 2.4 x 12 x .05 = 8.64 x 3 = 25.92 on average per round.
Meaning the Kineticis is still out damaging the Fighter at maybe the widest spot they have in proficiency before level 13 (fighter legendary), all with a level 1 impulse. Which they can do all day long (if only every other round).
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This clearly falls under the "too good to be true" rule.
By your ruling, for a level 1 impulse, I can do 3 attacks against the same target, with no map, which deals 2d4 damage per hit. So I can make 3 impulse attacks using my normal elemental blast with a range of 30 feet at +7/+2/-3 for 1d8 damage. OR I can spend the same three actions to hit a foe that is further away at a +7/+7/+7 for 2d4 damage.
They'd probably do a two-action and a one-action blast, +7 for 1d8+4 and +2 for 1d8. That's a little better, comparatively.
8.5 x .5 + 8.5 x 2 x .1 = 5.95
4.5 x .3 + 4.5 x 2 x .05 = 1.8
for a total combined damage of 7.75.
At level 5, our fighter is master with bows, and has +1 striking composite longbow. So they are rolling a +16/+11/+6 against a level 5 high AC creature (22) meaning they hit on a 6/11/16 respectively for 2d8+2 (4.5 x 2 + 2= 11).
11 x .50 + (11 x 2 + 5.5) x .25 = 12.375
11 x .45 + (11 x 2 + 5.5) x .05 = 6.775
11 x .20 + (11 x 2 + 5.5) x .05 = 3.575
Average per round of 22.725Our kineticis has hit his second heightened on the impulse, meaning it deals 6d4 damage per hit. They are still only trained, but have a gate attenuator, so they are rolling a +12, Meaning they hit on a 10.
2.4 x 6 x .5 + 2.4 x 12 x .05 = 8.64 x 3 = 25.92 on average per round.
Meaning the Kineticis is still out damaging the Fighter at maybe the widest spot they have in proficiency before level 13 (fighter legendary), all with a level 1 impulse. Which they can do all day long (if only every other round).
You can only use Magnetic Pinions every other round and its only piercing and bludgeoning damage. A level 1 Barbarian out damages this every round. True that +7 on every attack is great, but it doesn't outdo a martial. Here's my math on it.
To compare its damage to single targets, let's consider max damage output against a barbarian, king of single target damage. At level 1 assuming all attacks hit, Magnetic Pinions (3 Actions) can do 24 damage (6d4). Barbarian can do 60 damage (3*1d10+10) in 3 actions. Next turn, Barbarian does another 60 damage. Kineticist activates aura and does 11 damage Elemental Blast (weapon infusion for added STR = 1d8+3) plus thrown 2 action Elemental Blast for 15 damage (weapon infusion for STR and CON = 1d8+7) totalling 26 damage.
Two turns has Barbarian at 120 damage to single target. Kineticist with Magnetic Pinions does 50 damage. Even on third turn, Barbarian is at 180 damage and Kineticist is at 74, a 106 damage difference. If both crit each of those with max damage, you see that Barbarian is exponentially better at dealing the damage. Kineticist is more likely to hit but isn't going to deal as much damage.
I'd also add that not all classes are equal and saying one can't be stronger than another isn't realistic as shown above.
Which they can do all day long (if only every other round).
That seems like a pretty important caveat to bury at the end of your post...
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Typo IMO : "three" in "three attacks" should be deleted.
It then becomes :
"Small pieces of metal fly from you, propelled with magnetism at great velocity. Make ranged impulse attack rolls against up to three creatures within 60 feet of you; you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your attack roll against any target wearing metal armor or made of metal. All attacks count toward your multiple attack penalty, but it doesn't increase until after all the attacks. The metal pieces deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage and 1d4 piercing damage on a hit (or double damage on a critical hit)."
Simple and clear.
Occam's razor.
Or they could add "a single target can only be affected by one attack"
I've seen this a few times.
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One thing I just noticed it says "3 creatures" not "3 DIFFERENT creatures"
So why can't the target of the second attack be the same target as the first?
Because the same creature 3 times is not 3 creatures. There is no meaningful difference between saying "3 creatures" and "3 different creatures".
I will note that the literal wording of the spell does allow for piling all three attacks onto one creature.
You make attack rolls against "up to three creatures" but "All three attacks" contribute to MAP. Which implies that targeting fewer than three creatures still both makes all three attacks and causes MAP to increase for all three of them.
It needs errata. This is pretty clearly a problem. It is most definitely an outlier. Other spells and effects that target multiple creatures and delay increasing MAP only allow one attack per creature. Even enemy abilities. The only other outlier that is at all similar is Magic Missile and that one doesn't make attack rolls or allow saving throws at all.
Which they can do all day long (if only every other round).That seems like a pretty important caveat to bury at the end of your post...
My point was that a spellcaster may be able to out damage the fighter with a top level spell, but they only get a few of those a day, the Kineticist has no such limitation.
If you combine the rounds, the Kinteticist is dealing on average 15.125 damage over two rounds which is 83% of the Fighter's 18.15. If they did two rounds of three elemental blasts (at 30 ft range instead of 60) they would average 11.25, which is only 62% of the fighter's average.
It still says do one attack against "up to 3 creatures".
No, it actually doesn't.
Make ranged impulse attack rolls against up to three creatures within 60 feet of you;
There is nothing singular in that entire sentence.
It is very tempting to do some mental errata and turn that into "Make a ranged impulse attack roll against up to three creatures", but that isn't what it actually says.
Using your example english sentences, what the rule is closer to saying is:
"I saw animals in the zoo. I got three pictures of them."
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More like "choose up to three animals and take pictures of them."
The fact that it allows you to choose fewer targets doesn't somehow imply doing so increases the effect. It would have to actually say that, like magic missile does.
My point was that a spellcaster may be able to out damage the fighter with a top level spell, but they only get a few of those a day, the Kineticist has no such limitation.
If you combine the rounds, the Kinteticist is dealing on average 15.125 damage over two rounds which is 83% of the Fighter's 18.15. If they did two rounds of three elemental blasts (at 30 ft range instead of 60) they would average 11.25, which is only 62% of the fighter's average.
Again, you're underestimating kinetic blasts. You aren't accounting for two-action blasts. And sometimes Strength bonus can be applied.
A kineticist should only ever make three blasts if they want to hit each of three enemies. Which is exactly when you want Magnetic Pinions, but maybe they're trying to trigger a weakness.
More like "choose up to three animals and take pictures of them."
Yeah, that probably is even closer.
"Choose up to three animals and take pictures of them. You have to pay to get all three pictures developed when you are done."
That doesn't actually say that you can't take three pictures of the same zebra at the zoo.
Again, I'm not arguing that this is how the feat should be played at the table. Just pointing out that the rule text doesn't actually prevent it. It needs errata.
Because 'one' is a number that is 'up to three'.
tldr;
until you can somehow twist english so much that "up to three creatures" somehow translates to "one creature three times" there's only 1 attack against a single creature.
Let's try this a different way.
Would you agree that 'one' is a valid number of targets if you are allowed to target 'up to three' creatures?
Assuming that this is allowed, let's plug that into the literal rules text.
"Make ranged impulse attack rolls against one creature within 60 feet of you; ... All three attacks count toward your multiple attack penalty, but it doesn't increase until after all the attacks."
See how the sentence still works grammatically and matches with itself?
anyways, it seems we have reached an impase, i wont be changing my mind, you wont be changing your mind.
Yup. It needs changed.
Either to be explicitly like Magic Missile that lets you target the same creature with all of the damage.
Or to be explicitly like Scorching Ray that says that you have to target different creatures with each unit of the spell.
it doesn't say "one", it says "up to three". That's why it then HAS to clarify what happens on the MAP, which only happens on multiple attacks.
again, using your pictures example, word for word, it translates to:
"Take pictures of up to three animals. All three pictures are in black and white."If I saw that on a zoo wall, i would only read it as "a picture per animal" and not "three pictures of the same animal".
You might read it that way. Not everyone will. Three pictures of the same zebra still meets the requirements. Three pictures of one zebra is 'pictures of up to three animals'. Specifically it is 'pictures of one animal'. But that is still within the limit.
The best spell to use as a comparison for the wording is Slashing Gust. That spell works very similarly. You can target one creature and make one attack, or target two creatures and make one attack against each.
But Slashing Gust does use the words 'a' and 'each' when it is talking about making attack rolls against targets.
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tldr;
until you can somehow twist english so much that "up to three creatures" somehow translates to "one creature three times" there's only 1 attack against a single creature.
Let's try this a different way.
Would you agree that 'one' is a valid number of targets if you are allowed to target 'up to three' creatures?
Assuming that this is allowed, let's plug that into the literal rules text.
"Make ranged impulse attack rolls against one creature within 60 feet of you; ... All three attacks count toward your multiple attack penalty, but it doesn't increase until after all the attacks."
See how the sentence still works grammatically and matches with itself?
Then, I guess I could make 9 attacks : three attacks on each of the up to three targets I selected.
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tldr;
until you can somehow twist english so much that "up to three creatures" somehow translates to "one creature three times" there's only 1 attack against a single creature.
Let's try this a different way.
Would you agree that 'one' is a valid number of targets if you are allowed to target 'up to three' creatures?
Assuming that this is allowed, let's plug that into the literal rules text.
"Make ranged impulse attack rolls against one creature within 60 feet of you; ... All three attacks count toward your multiple attack penalty, but it doesn't increase until after all the attacks."
See how the sentence still works grammatically and matches with itself?
It's a different sentence, though.
And actually, no! "All three" is referring back to something that you took out. It's a reference with nothing to refer to. It explains what happens with your three attacks, but no longer actually says to make them. You could parse this and figure out the intent, but as rules text the part saying how many attacks to make is just not there. You'd have to add that in.
There are ways to word this better, but the "therefore make three attacks against one target" part is absolutely not there at all. That part keeps getting added in.
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Instead of arguing semantics, let's argue with MATH!
Magnetic Pinions does 2d4 damage per attack at level 1, and scales by 2d4 every two levels, similarly to a spell. All three attacks are made at the same MAP, so we can just assume you will always do all three, and the targets all have the same AC, just to remove all those variables.
Magnetic Pinions can do at most 6d4 damage for 3 actions. That's an average of 5 damage per action/target at level 1. At level 9 that's 30d4, averaging 25 damage per action/target, and level 19 it's 60d4, and averages 50 damage per action/target. The ability can be used at most every other round, however you can do other things between turns to keep your DPR up.
Everyone keeps comparing it to Magic Missile, so lets compare the damage.
Magic Missile does an average of 3.5 damage per action at level 1, 10.5 at level 9, and 17.5 per action at level 17, then never gets stronger after that. That's a significant difference in damage here, even if you account for the damage type difference. On top of that, you would have to spend 9th rank spell slots to have Magic Missile do its maximum possible damage, meaning at max you can only cast it 3-5 times in a day, while Magnetic Pinions has no limit to how many times it can be used.
But lets compare it to other similar spells and abilities.
Scorching Ray can do 4d6 Fire to up to 3 targets at level 3, and scales an additional 2d6 per 2 levels like Pinions does. Using 3 actions, that means at level 19 it does an average of 70 damage per target (20d6), and is honestly a much better use of a spell slot than Magic Missile.
But then that begs the question: Why is this ability so much stronger than Magic Missile, but then so much weaker than Scorching Ray? Sure, fire is resisted pretty often, but not as much as physical damage. On top of that, you can use Magnetic Pinions an infinite number of times without having to rest, while Scorching Ray uses a limited resource.
If you would able to attack the same target with Magnetic Pinions, it would do an average of 150 damage at level 19, which far exceeds even 10th rank spells. For example a 10th rank Disintegrate, arguably the most iconic single target nuke spells, only does 110 damage on average, and requires an additional fort save after hitting so even a crit could end up doing half that.
This is why I believe it is intended to only hit once per target. Otherwise this ability with an infinite number of uses per day would end up stronger than some of the strongest spells in the game.