Melee vs Magic Challenge


Advice


My brother has challenged me to a duel on Saturday. The terms of the challenge? To prove that mages beat melee monsters by 10th level. I'm pretty sure he is planning a Two-Handed Fighter kind of build. What kind of caster do you think I should use to defeat him?


summoner or sorcerer should do well


More focus on initiative than you normally would have.


Only other rules we've got are no buff rounds.


Any kind other than blaster can shut down a fighter as long as you have enough initiative and have the spells like Greater Invisibility, Fly and Emergency Force Sphere. Go Draconic Black Sorcerer and just Acidic Spray one round, acid arrow another round. Six rounds later, you are very likely going to win. He can't jump to hit you, his bow can't get past your emergency Force Sphere. Can't see you, so at best, he can only have 50% chance of hitting you, which you will use emergency Force Sphere anyway. Then just watch him burn.

Round 1: Greater invisibility, move away.
Round 2: Fly
Round 3: Acidic Spray
Round 4: Acid Arrow
Round 5: Acidic Spray
Round 6: Acid Arrow

Keep going if he is not dead yet. Emergency Force Sphere when attacked.

Bonus: Ventriloquism against blind swordsman.


If the fighter can use magic items he has a pretty good chance of having see invisibility on hand and is basically certain to have some sort of flight. Modifying DoubleBubble's plan, add in quickened expeditious retreat in round 1, and consider replacing Fly with polymorphing into something fast - e.g. Monstrous Physique II: Lamia.


I'd like to pull off a single round kill, if possible, just to drive the point home. Ideas?


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FIGHTY SIDE AM NOT ROLLING BARBARIAN. THAT AM EQUIVALENT TO GOING INTO FORMULA ONE RACE BLINDFOLDED AND WITHOUT WHEELS.

THIS AM ALREADY NOT HARD, JUST PICK THING AND DO THING.


AM BARBARIAN wrote:

FIGHTY SIDE AM NOT ROLLING BARBARIAN. THAT AM EQUIVALENT TO GOING INTO FORMULA ONE RACE BLINDFOLDED AND WITHOUT WHEELS.

THIS AM ALREADY NOT HARD, JUST PICK THING AND DO THING.

How does a caster kill such a barbarian?


Anything sufficiently nasty with a save will do for a 1-round kill (e.g. magic jar) but it's not going to be reliable. The fighter might, you know, make the save.


Possession doesn't require line of effect. Combine with emergency force sphere.


whats the stat generation?


Caster aren't good at killing a target in a single round. They're terrible at dealing damage directly (outside of highly specialized builds) and save or die/suck spells aren't reliable.

I would make sure you have some dispel magic prepared so that in the event the fighter uses items, scrolls, or wands to do things like See Invisibility or Fly you can simply remove them.

Start combat with greater invisibility followed by fly. Respond with dispel magic if the fighter starts using items. Afterwards summon things to slowly whittle him down and kill him.

Grand Lodge

Cast Fly then destroy him with magic missile. If he's got a ranged weapon then be invisible or cast wind wall and laugh at his impotence, then destroy him with magic missile. If he was smart and bought a potion of sheild, dispel it. If he bought a sheild broach (Which I doubt but you never know), cast stone call then cloud kill and then solid fog. OR any pit spell then cloud kill.


An ifrit (wildfire heart) diviner wizard with greenskin scorpion familiar, improved initiative, reactionary trait, cracked dusty rose prism and good dex should have no problems going first (Initiative=20+Dexmod+d20). As an ifrit you could get firesight and use spells and items (such as wall of fire and the eversmoking bottle) to obscure the area.Since this is a one time thing could it be worth getting a lesser metamagic rod (quickening)?

What's the terrain like? In our last session my group had a battle royale (I was a witch the others consisted of a rogue, barbarian, slayer and fighter) and while I couldn't deal much damage I had some success with putting people to sleep and then throwing them into a 130ft deep pit.


You can use the level 10 Wizard discovery Time Stutter to force a buffing round, or summoning, escaping, etc.


Choose your terrain, demand that nothing can be used to nullify your superiority. Make sure the Melee is trapped in an open field with no cover or concealment. Make sure you start far enough apart that he can't get to you before you can magically negate his abilities. Argue against any interpretation of the most minor of your spells that might cause you any disadvantage. Control the pace of everything. This is a time honored tradition.

Your caster will be a god.


Athaleon wrote:
You can use the level 10 Wizard discovery Time Stutter to force a buffing round, or summoning, escaping, etc.

This.

SInce it is 1v1 and not a character you have to play you should really design his entire spell list and Feats for wrecking him.

Quicken spells- Like Quicken Vanish, Move, Time Stutter. Buff Up while invisible...start with FLy to get overhead.

Then just rain hell on him with things that do not allow saves or target his worst saves.

Have you seen what a Dazing Acid Arrow can do? Or a Persistent Hold Person followed up with a Coup de grace?

Lots of Options you can do and leave him there feeling down right Useless.


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Kai_G wrote:
AM BARBARIAN wrote:

FIGHTY SIDE AM NOT ROLLING BARBARIAN. THAT AM EQUIVALENT TO GOING INTO FORMULA ONE RACE BLINDFOLDED AND WITHOUT WHEELS.

THIS AM ALREADY NOT HARD, JUST PICK THING AND DO THING.

How does a caster kill such a barbarian?

AM OVER 700 COMMENT PAGES OF TRYING.

CASTYS STILL AM NOT SURE. AM MAYBE ABLE SUCCESSFULLY KILL 6HD BAT. THAT AM ABOUT IT, WHICH AM PRETTY GOOD FOR 20TH LEVEL CASTY.


AM BARBARIAN wrote:

FIGHTY SIDE AM NOT ROLLING BARBARIAN. THAT AM EQUIVALENT TO GOING INTO FORMULA ONE RACE BLINDFOLDED AND WITHOUT WHEELS.

THIS AM ALREADY NOT HARD, JUST PICK THING AND DO THING.

I won't say that there are not fighter builds that could work.... but this seems like it is going to be a BSF. So..... yeah. You are basically right.

The build I would go for, by the way, would be a brawler (the fighter archetype; paizo needs a thesaurus). It is pretty much a specialized archetype made for locking down opponents in single combat and then punching them. A LOT.

It gets two notable special abilities- one that debuffs both concentration checks and attack by a huge amount when you are next to the fighter, and one that gives you an AoO for pretty much any movement away from the brawler (...and the archetype kindly reminds you 'hey, there is this feat that lets you trade your AoO in return for a maneuver that stops AoO drawing movement).

I vaguely remember another figher feat that does the same movement/aoo thing.... but this is mostly notable for the massive debuff to concentration/attack. It also gets bonuses to the movement stopping maneuver. So even big beefy enemies can be held down.

After that... I would just make it a half elf so it has decent will saves, and then hope that reflex doesn't become a problem....


Battle report:
Since my magus build started the debate, I played my magus build, while my brother play a TWF build. We started with our characters standing in an open arena 1d8x5ft apart (20 ft.), taking the fixed hit die option to set an average luck baseline.

Round 1: I took the initiative, cast Fly and moved 30ft up into the air. My brother activated Winged Boots and charged, which I realized afterward would not be possible (standard to activate, full round to charge). He struck me for 17 damage.

Round 2: I 5ft stepped back, drew a lesser metamagic rod of maximize from a handy haversack as a move action, then used harrowed spellstrike to hit is touch AC and cast a maximized, intensified shocking grasp converted to fire with the first level admixture school power, which was buffed with the Crossblooded (orc/red dragon) sorcerer arcana and the half-orc favored class bonus to deal 1d4+84 fire damage. He was dropped to -17 and incinerated instantly.

Questions?


Sounds like he had absolutely no system mastery. I wouldn't have killed him by blasts though - there are more gentle ways of winning.


coulda also done a 20ish d6+60ish dmg empowered fireball or empowered maximized scorching ray for 3 attacks at 54 dmg each, dazing black tentacles for near permanent grapple and many many more things


If he figured he was fighting a blaster caster and didn't have a way to mitigate or negate fire damage, at 10th level, you were fighting someone who doesn't know a lot about high end optimization.


@Lady-J - Fireball is a 3rd level spell, an AoE spell with a Reflex save, and a waste of energy on a single target. I wanted to use this character the way I would have played it in any other game. A 1st level slot that I immediately regain via Spell Recall for 1 Arcane Pool point vs a 3rd level spell is way more efficient to regain. My build doesn't have Empower Spell, so Scorching Ray is out of the argument. I like the Dazing Black Tentacles idea, but it would take a build that is more geared for it to work, such as a high 20's DC to make it reliable or Persistent to keep the target pinned down with repeated Will saves for the entire duration of the spell rather than just 4 rounds, and it would be nowhere near "near permanent". Also, as a 4th level spell at its base, a 10th level Magus would likely only be able to cast it once a day.

@Trinam - I don't think he knew which kind of caster I was playing. Even if he was immune it fire, I still could have change the damage type and dealt a significant amount of damage, still likely dropping him to unconsciousness in a single shot, but I would have been a shot in the dark for what kind of damage he would have been susceptible to.


The only kind of blaster that deals comparable damage to a fighter is a fire one, meaning they are the one you want to defend against since that way you're either alive due to protection or alive due to the enemy being suboptimal.

That said, you should also thank your lucky stars that he didn't have a bow and was stupid enough to charge into melee and allow your full attack. You never want to be the second one full attacking.

Which leads to the one thing that has me confused. How'd you five foot step back and then use a touch spell? Reach weapon?


Trinam wrote:
The only kind of blaster that deals comparable damage to a fighter is a fire one, meaning they are the one you want to defend against since that way you're either alive due to protection or alive due to the enemy being suboptimal.

I would say an acid, cold, or electrical mage could come in just underneath a fire mage, maybe 5-10 points under. It just depends on the build.

Trinam wrote:
That said, you should also thank your lucky stars that he didn't have a bow and was stupid enough to charge into melee and allow your full attack. You never want to be the second one full attacking.

I'll give you that, but if I had seen he had a bow, invisibility and moving on the ground would have been the counter tactic, instead of fly.

Trinam wrote:
Which leads to the one thing that has me confused. How'd you five foot step back and then use a touch spell? Reach weapon?

I used the 2nd level ability of the Card Caster Magus, Harrowed Spellstrike.


Trinam wrote:

The only kind of blaster that deals comparable damage to a fighter is a fire one, meaning they are the one you want to defend against since that way you're either alive due to protection or alive due to the enemy being suboptimal.

That said, you should also thank your lucky stars that he didn't have a bow and was stupid enough to charge into melee and allow your full attack. You never want to be the second one full attacking.

Which leads to the one thing that has me confused. How'd you five foot step back and then use a touch spell? Reach weapon?

This isn't true.

At high levels the best AOE is a perfect spell chain lightning user and the best single target is bettering Blast
At low/mid levels the highest AOE is fire and the best single target is Battering Blast

The most consistent standout is force damage not fire.


So you were... Card caster Sakura.

Well there's how you won right there. Protagonist powers.

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