In the beastiary (no templates etc) which wild shape form (plants and animals) does the most damage ON LAND via grab/constrict in a round. I ask this question because going by the beastiary options like Large or Huge Anacondas do not exist. Only a Gargantuan sized Anaconda exists and a Medium sized Constrictor snake exists. I have found some tree forms that do 2D6 damage for there attack/constrict however the problem is often its a Vine attack with means its a secondary attack resulting in half your strength modifier at work and your BAB -5 to hit.
If you're not worried about movement then I think a corpse lotus (huge) will work. Vines aren't necessarily secondary attacks BTW.
With movement as a consideration look up an alraune (large).
If you're not worried about movement then I think a corpse lotus (huge) will work. Vines aren't necessarily secondary attacks BTW.
With movement as a consideration look up an alraune (large).
How do you know when an attack is a primary and when it is a secondary?
If it's explicitly listed on the table here use that. Otherwise go by the monster you're polymorphing into.
Wouldn't "Other" be vines? Under the vast majority if not all of the plants in the beastiary it does not list explicitly as "Secondary attack". Do you have an example of a plant which indicates its secondary attack?
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Also, any reason you don't like the giant octopus? I know the tentacles are all secondary attacks, but 8 natural attacks of any kind is pretty good, moreso when you also get constrict on them, plus a bite attack. Also combines really well with frostbite, since every natural attack can apply spell damage. 20 foot move speed isn't great, but that's what longstrider and greater are for.
I'm saying that 'other' isn't explicit, yes. As Deighton points out reverse engineering whether it's primary or secondary from the stats is trivial.
e.g. an Elder Nirento. Are those vines primary or secondary? Obviously they're primary.
On the other hand a Veranallia Aata has secondary vine attacks.
One thing to note - if it's the only type of natural attack a creature has, it's almost always primary. The exceptions are a few domesticated creatures.
Also, any reason you don't like the giant octopus? I know the tentacles are all secondary attacks, but 8 natural attacks of any kind is pretty good, moreso when you also get constrict on them, plus a bite attack. Also combines really well with frostbite, since every natural attack can apply spell damage. 20 foot move speed isn't great, but that's what longstrider and greater are for.
Ya I just have all grappling feats that's why I'm trying to find the best constrict dealing creature I could possibly shape into.
I'm saying that 'other' isn't explicit, yes. As Deighton points out reverse engineering whether it's primary or secondary from the stats is trivial.
e.g. an Elder Nirento. Are those vines primary or secondary? Obviously they're primary.
On the other hand a Veranallia Aata has secondary vine attacks.
One thing to note - if it's the only type of natural attack a creature has, it's almost always primary. The exceptions are a few domesticated creatures.
Ahh I gotcha.
If I were to wild shape into this Large creature at my current level of 8,
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/snake/snake-const rictor-anaconda/
obviously I would only get the +4 str bonus instead of +6 but would I gain the constrict ability that this large animal possesses? Or do I only get the constrict ability for Huge creatures as per Beast shape III.
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Ya I just have all grappling feats that's why I'm trying to find the best constrict dealing creature I could possibly shape into.
Well, it had less to do with grappling or constrict damage than additional spell damage with every natural attack, but I have a high level druid that at 15th level could do over 500 hp damage in giant octopus form. But that required frostbite, vine strike, and divine favor SLA from celestial obedience. Significantly less damage without pre-buffing though.
Ya I just have all grappling feats that's why I'm trying to find the best constrict dealing creature I could possibly shape into.Well, it had less to do with grappling or constrict damage than additional spell damage with every natural attack, but I have a high level druid that at 15th level could do over 500 hp damage in giant octopus form. But that required frostbite, vine strike, and divine favor SLA from celestial obedience. Significantly less damage without pre-buffing though.
Wow! Are Octopus allowed to be on land for extended periods of time? I also have celestial Obedience. My build is completely based around grappling, rapid grappling.
I'm saying that 'other' isn't explicit, yes. As Deighton points out reverse engineering whether it's primary or secondary from the stats is trivial.
e.g. an Elder Nirento. Are those vines primary or secondary? Obviously they're primary.
On the other hand a Veranallia Aata has secondary vine attacks.
One thing to note - if it's the only type of natural attack a creature has, it's almost always primary. The exceptions are a few domesticated creatures.
Hows this form for what I'm going for?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/plants/sargassum-fiend/
Only thing is its Large size only. It says aquatic, could this not be used on land?
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You could use a Sargassum Fiend on land, but it's limited to only 2 attacks, and really what you're looking for with wild shape forms is usually the most attacks you can possibly get, especially at lower level when you don't get many of the special abilities. Truthfully, I've never really been a fan of the Plant Shape options, because you don't get enough of the special abilities that really make plants dangerous. I think Alraune is probably the only large plant I've ever used, 4 vines as primary attacks with constrict, and a 40 foot move speed.
Usually I'm either in air/earth elemental form while performing a more support/secondary damage role, or octopus for the high number of attacks. That is until shapechange comes into play for dragon and giant forms.
You could use a Sargassum Fiend on land, but it's limited to only 2 attacks, and really what you're looking for with wild shape forms is usually the most attacks you can possibly get, especially at lower level when you don't get many of the special abilities. Truthfully, I've never really been a fan of the Plant Shape options, because you don't get enough of the special abilities that really make plants dangerous. I think Alraune is probably the only large plant I've ever used, 4 vines as primary attacks with constrict, and a 40 foot move speed.
Usually I'm either in air/earth elemental form while performing a more support/secondary damage role, or octopus for the high number of attacks. That is until shapechange comes into play for dragon and giant forms.
I hear ya, but for my build (all grappling) I think the form may be the best option in terms of grab/constrict.
My feats include: Imp. Grapp, Greater Grapp, Powerful shape, Rapid Grapp, Dirty fighting, natural spell
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Problem is, you can get 3 grapples in with Imp. grapple and Greater Grapple and Rapid Grapple, doing damage 4 times with one attack w/constrict, and 2 grapple checks to damage. With something like an Alraune, you can make 4 attacks with constrict meaning doing damage 8 times, 4 for the attacks, and 4 again for constricts. Also, rapid grapple takes your swift action, and applies a -5 to hit penalty. The feats are still good for the bonus to grapple though.
Also, the abilities you get are usually based on the universal monster abilities, so depending on your GM, they may, or may not allow the special grab rules a Sargassum Fiend gets. Usually when a when monster has a better version of a listed ability you get what the spell lists.
Problem is, you can get 3 grapples in with Imp. grapple and Greater Grapple and Rapid Grapple, doing damage 4 times with one attack w/constrict, and 2 grapple checks to damage. With something like an Alraune, you can make 4 attacks with constrict meaning doing damage 8 times, 4 for the attacks, and 4 again for constricts. Also, rapid grapple takes your swift action, and applies a -5 to hit penalty. The feats are still good for the bonus to grapple though.
Also, the abilities you get are usually based on the universal monster abilities, so depending on your GM, they may, or may not allow the special grab rules a Sargassum Fiend gets. Usually when a when monster has a better version of a listed ability you get what the spell lists.
Ahh, your talking about grabbing, constricting then releasing. There are players who say thats Abuse of rules lol but yes certainly then you would want 8+ attacks with grab and constrict.
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Ahh, your talking about grabbing, constricting then releasing. There are players who say that's Abuse of rules lol but yes certainly then you would want ^+ attacks with grab and constrict.
It's definitely the way to do the most damage, and how to tie up the most number of opponents if you're going for control over damage. As for abuse, it's up to every table to decide what they find abusive. I know a lot of people that find magi or gunslingers to be abusive classes that never should have been created. Apparently a lot of people had a problem with my core monk in PFS being too powerful, despite the consensus that core monks are pretty bad, and the fact that I didn't even focus on any combat specialty like grappling or tripping. As for grapple/release, some might not like it, but it's definitely something you can do according to the core rulebook.
Ahh, your talking about grabbing, constricting then releasing. There are players who say that's Abuse of rules lol but yes certainly then you would want ^+ attacks with grab and constrict.It's definitely the way to do the most damage, and how to tie up the most number of opponents if you're going for control over damage. As for abuse, it's up to every table to decide what they find abusive. I know a lot of people that find magi or gunslingers to be abusive classes that never should have been created. Apparently a lot of people had a problem with my core monk in PFS being too powerful, despite the consensus that core monks are pretty bad, and the fact that I didn't even focus on any combat specialty like grappling or tripping. As for grapple/release, some might not like it, but it's definitely something you can do according to the core rulebook.
That's very true it is perfectly legal. Do I also get the plant forms Reach if i take up its shape? or just its speed/swim/climb/dark vision etc abilities?
With a secondary attack do you suffer any other penalties besides -5 to hit and half your strength modifier to damage? Do you suffer any additional CMB penalties?
Ahh, your talking about grabbing, constricting then releasing. There are players who say that's Abuse of rules lol but yes certainly then you would want ^+ attacks with grab and constrict.It's definitely the way to do the most damage, and how to tie up the most number of opponents if you're going for control over damage. As for abuse, it's up to every table to decide what they find abusive. I know a lot of people that find magi or gunslingers to be abusive classes that never should have been created. Apparently a lot of people had a problem with my core monk in PFS being too powerful, despite the consensus that core monks are pretty bad, and the fact that I didn't even focus on any combat specialty like grappling or tripping. As for grapple/release, some might not like it, but it's definitely something you can do according to the core rulebook.
Deighton I'm not following when you say "its the way to tie up the most number of opponents". How is that done? Where is the tieing up taking place when constricting and releasing?
Also, any reason you don't like the giant octopus? I know the tentacles are all secondary attacks, but 8 natural attacks of any kind is pretty good, moreso when you also get constrict on them, plus a bite attack. Also combines really well with frostbite, since every natural attack can apply spell damage. 20 foot move speed isn't great, but that's what longstrider and greater are for.
Would the constrict on these secondary attacks be at half STR mod as well or would it be at full STR?
Green men are pretty good if your DM will let you
Also, any reason you don't like the giant octopus? I know the tentacles are all secondary attacks, but 8 natural attacks of any kind is pretty good, moreso when you also get constrict on them, plus a bite attack. Also combines really well with frostbite, since every natural attack can apply spell damage. 20 foot move speed isn't great, but that's what longstrider and greater are for.Would the constrict on these secondary attacks be at half STR mod as well or would it be at full STR?Constrict is a more general attack. You aren't committed to using your Tentacles to do Constrict Damage.
You get your full ST bonus.
According to the beastiary I just found that constrict for the tentacle is at 50% STR mod :(
Would it be an idea to get a belt of anaconda coils for the full STR mod and general STR and CMB buff?
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Wow! Are Octopus allowed to be on land for extended periods of time? I also have celestial Obedience. My build is completely based around grappling, rapid grappling.Ya I just have all grappling feats that's why I'm trying to find the best constrict dealing creature I could possibly shape into.Well, it had less to do with grappling or constrict damage than additional spell damage with every natural attack, but I have a high level druid that at 15th level could do over 500 hp damage in giant octopus form. But that required frostbite, vine strike, and divine favor SLA from celestial obedience. Significantly less damage without pre-buffing though.
I was going to say GO OCTOPUS! But someone beat me to it.
Then I was going to mention their ability to grab and release several times for mega damage, but someone beat me to it.
Then I was going to elaborate about their ability to move on land and breath air, but someone beat me to it.
All that's really left for me to say is I had a blast with my own transmuter, Haylannar Whart, who would transform into a flying octopus via overland flight, which he cast at the start of each day. He was the 8-tentacled terror of the skies! :D
If you want to be a really brutal shapechanger, all you really need is the Shapeshifting Mastery archmage path ability, Power Attack, and as high a caster level as you can possibly obtain. Haylannar has a base attack bonus of +26 (at level 15!) whenever he is polymorphed into an animal or magical beast, giving him a +10, +21, or +31 damage bonus from Power Attack.
According to the beastiary I just found that constrict for the tentacle is at 50% STR mod :(
Can you cite/quote the relevant rule for us, please?
unfortunately that secondary damage really hurts, overland flight is great though! this game just has so much depth..
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Overland flight on my animal companion, tiger, with death from above is amazing. I want add branch pounce to it.
Another share spell move I like flash forward. Double pounce. This one is not available to druid to my knowledge.
Transformation.
I have use persistent resinous skin on my AC.
Fun with share spell is maybe my favourite thing in the game. Some of these ideas work well for the druid. Like resinous skin, and overland flight.