So I have a SwordSaint with a nodachi and my friend has a hell knight with a mount.
Basicaly we keep fighting about this but if he charges me with his lance and has lunge he can attack from 15ft away.
So my question is can i target his lance when he charges to attack me? Can i Attempt a disarm or sunder as his lance is the only thing coming into my threaten space? Also because the nodachi gets dbl dmg on a charge would that include if i was to attempt sunder or disarm?
On reach:
By the strictest letter of the rules, you can't hit anything outside of your reach. Ergo, if you can't reach this dude's square, you can't sunder, disarm, or otherwise interact with him with any melee options, even if he's reaching into your own square. Reach is a VERY powerful ability - you can grapple, disarm, sunder, or otherwise interact against your targets with impunity if they can't reach you.
There's a series of houserules I often insist upon in any game I play: (1) anything that provokes an attack of opportunity for trying to do it cannot be used as an attack of opportunity, and (2) doing something that provokes an attack of opportunity over reach will still offer your target an attack of opportunity if they can do so without running afoul of rule 1. To qualify for rule 2, you need to either have something like Improved Sunder or Improved Disarm vs. manufactured weapons, even if it's something like a large longsword being used by an ogre. (If it was an attack of opportunity provoked with natural weapons or unarmed attacks, like a grapple attempt, you can take your attack of opportunity without any special feats, since you're just hitting the guy, not his gear.) This takes some of the power away from reach, but I feel it is more fair. (Again, this is all houserule material.)
If you want an in-game way of dealing with this problem without resorting to houserules, I might suggest the Strike Back feat.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/strike-back-combat-final/
On nodachi double damage vs. charge:
You seem to be talking about the "brace" special ability. Brace only applies if you readied an attack vs. his charge (i.e. "I take a readying action to attack if I am charged"). Ergo, you'd only get double damage if you took a readying action. And then, only for that one attack, not with any attacks of opportunity you may get. (I don't put much value in the brace ability.)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/#wpn-quality-brace
(Note that you can use Strike Back in combination with the Brace ability - that way, you'd be hitting him first and be doing double damage with your attack. Which could be a sunder attempt if you so desired.)
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AFAIK, Officially the only option is Strike back
You can strike at foes that attack you using their superior reach, by targeting their limbs or weapons as they come at you.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: You can ready an action to make a melee attack against any foe that attacks you in melee, even if the foe is outside of your reach.
Damn guess im screwed then if we ever duel.... im only lvl 7 and its lvl 11 for attack back
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Hmmm...I actually don't see anything that specifies you have to target your opponent's square to sunder something they're holding. I mean, 9 times out of 10 you will be, but a reach weapon is a corner case. Personally, I'd allow it. Strike back reads more like the ability to do damage to an opponent with reach, rather than allowing you to sunder their weapon.
Yah see thats what i figured that if i choose to target the weapon in my space i should be able to sunder or disarm him because im targetin the weapon not the player
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Hmmm...I actually don't see anything that specifies you have to target your opponent's square to sunder something they're holding. I mean, 9 times out of 10 you will be, but a reach weapon is a corner case. Personally, I'd allow it. Strike back reads more like the ability to do damage to an opponent with reach, rather than allowing you to sunder their weapon.
Sundering something require an attack roll. You can attack what you threaten. You never threaten the weapon or the limbs, you threaten the creature.
I shared your opinion, but was show my error in what I think was the first "discussion" I had in these forum.
BTW, as a home rule, my playing group allow that, but it is an homerule.
You can take a 5 ft. step as part of a readied action. This means that you can close the gap between yourself and a charing opponent with reach. Say your "friend" with 15 ft. reach charges you. When he's 3 squares away, he can attack. But you've readied an action, which happens before his attack. You take a 5 ft. step - the distance is no only 10 ft. - and attack with your reach weapon (so you need something other than a nodachi or another way to increase your reach).
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Hmmm...I actually don't see anything that specifies you have to target your opponent's square to sunder something they're holding. I mean, 9 times out of 10 you will be, but a reach weapon is a corner case. Personally, I'd allow it. Strike back reads more like the ability to do damage to an opponent with reach, rather than allowing you to sunder their weapon.Sundering something require an attack roll. You can attack what you threaten. You never threaten the weapon or the limbs, you threaten the creature.
I shared your opinion, but was show my error in what I think was the first "discussion" I had in these forum.
BTW, as a home rule, my playing group allow that, but it is an homerule.
Uh...you don't have to threaten something to make an attack roll against it. An unarmed person (without IUS) doesn't threaten any squares, but can still make an unarmed attack roll.
Uh...you don't have to threaten something to make an attack roll against it. An unarmed person (without IUS) doesn't threaten any squares, but can still make an unarmed attack roll.Hmmm...I actually don't see anything that specifies you have to target your opponent's square to sunder something they're holding. I mean, 9 times out of 10 you will be, but a reach weapon is a corner case. Personally, I'd allow it. Strike back reads more like the ability to do damage to an opponent with reach, rather than allowing you to sunder their weapon.Sundering something require an attack roll. You can attack what you threaten. You never threaten the weapon or the limbs, you threaten the creature.
I shared your opinion, but was show my error in what I think was the first "discussion" I had in these forum.
BTW, as a home rule, my playing group allow that, but it is an homerule.
You do need to threaten to take an AoO though, which is what is being discussed.
And more importantly you do need to be able to reach your opponent whether during attacks on your own turn, or when taking an AoO. The rules do not provide a mechanism (short of the feat mentioned above) that allows you to reach said opponent - nor do the rules make a provision that a weapon or limb is "temporarily" in another square when making attacks with reach.
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You do need to threaten to take an AoO though, which is what is being discussed.
OP didn't say anything about AoO, and without threatening you could still ready an action to sunder.
The rules do not provide a mechanism (short of the feat mentioned above) that allows you to reach said opponent - nor do the rules make a provision that a weapon or limb is "temporarily" in another square when making attacks with reach.
While true, I still thing you should be able to target an item in an adjacent square.
You do need to threaten to take an AoO though, which is what is being discussed.OP didn't say anything about AoO, and without threatening you could still ready an action to sunder.
When someone talks about needing to threaten to attack, to me that is context for an AoO - I may have misunderstood Diego in this regard, but that was the context I was framing my response in.
While true, I still thing you should be able to target an item in an adjacent square.The rules do not provide a mechanism (short of the feat mentioned above) that allows you to reach said opponent - nor do the rules make a provision that a weapon or limb is "temporarily" in another square when making attacks with reach.
House rules are fine, but are just that, house rules.
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So I have a SwordSaint with a nodachi and my friend has a hell knight with a mount.
Basicaly we keep fighting about this but if he charges me with his lance and has lunge he can attack from 15ft away.
So my question is can i target his lance when he charges to attack me? Can i Attempt a disarm or sunder as his lance is the only thing coming into my threaten space? Also because the nodachi gets dbl dmg on a charge would that include if i was to attempt sunder or disarm?
Maybe I've got this wrong, but I was under the impression you need a more specific readied action. So with regards to your question, I think it would depend on how you readied the action. Is the readied action to slash him when moves into melee range, or is the plan to attack his weapon as he reaches it to stab you?
I think if you declare that you are readying against his weapon, when it comes into range, then you would get to attempt it. If you ready to attack when he is in range, you wouldn't get to, unless he moves into range.
Regarding the BRACE weapon property, it allows double damage on "a successful hit against a charging creature." So I don't think it applies to Sunder, since the damage is not being directed at a creature. I suppose you could read it another way, but that's I see it. You may be hitting the creature's CMD, but you do not hit the creature with a sunder attack, you hit the item.
You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Sunder feat, or a similar ability, attempting to sunder an item provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack is successful, you deal damage to the item normally. Damage that exceeds the object's Hardness is subtracted from its hit points. If an object has equal to or less than half its total hit points remaining, it gains the broken condition (see Conditions). If the damage you deal would reduce the object to less than 0 hit points, you can choose to destroy it. If you do not choose to destroy it, the object is left with only 1 hit point and the broken condition.
You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Disarm feat, or a similar ability, attempting to disarm a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Attempting to disarm a foe while unarmed imposes a –4 penalty on the attack.
If your attack is successful, your target drops one item it is carrying of your choice (even if the item is wielded with two hands). If your attack exceeds the CMD of the target by 10 or more, the target drops the items it is carrying in both hands (maximum two items if the target has more than two hands). If your attack fails by 10 or more, you drop the weapon that you were using to attempt the disarm. If you successfully disarm your opponent without using a weapon, you may automatically pick up the item dropped.
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.
You don't have to reach their square to perform either sunder or disarm. Just remember if you don't have improved, you'll provoke AoO. So, you can specify a readied action to 5ft. Step and attempt either combat maneuver (specify ahead of time) when his weapon enters your square.
I posted the incorporeal quote emphasis to demonstrate this action isn't without president. Attack as you're being attacked as a readied action.
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Special rules regarding incorporeal creatures do not apply here, they are specific rules regarding such creatures. Such specific exceptions actually enforce the strength of the general rule. E.g, you need an exception in the rules in order for there to be one. Furthermore though, if a incorporeal creature had reach, and attacked out of the wall, and you were not adjacent to the wall, you would not be able to strike it back with a readied action, you still need reach to the wall it is hiding in, the exception rule here simply changes its protection from the wall to cover instead of total cover.
Combat maneuvers are attacks, so follow all the normal rules of attacks - meaning you must have reach to the target creature. A creatures weapons and gear are considered part of the creature, so you must be able to target the creature.
You could not trip an opponent because his weapon struck you if you don't have range. Sunder and disarm are the same - they have no language or rules that make an exception. You also cannot sunder an arrow mid flight when it reaches a square adjacent to you, though you could certainly ready an action to sunder an arrow of a character you are adjacent to when it pulls it from the quiver.
I would rule that unless you had the strike back feat then you could only sunder his weapon when you are within range of your target.
Just as I would expect a creature with long limbs to keep them close to the body when not attacking, I would expect a reach weapon to be held close to the body except for when being used to attack. Otherwise it would be unwieldy.
Had the feat not existed, then I would have allowed it as a readied action. But as it is a CRB feat then it is hard to argue that it is an unnecessary bloat feat.
Strike Back is essentially more than what I described. The feat specifies limbs and weapons, and can apply to any attack action.
Similar to how weapon finesse allows you to apply your dex to combat maneuvers involving your weapon and agile maneuvers allows you to apply you dex to all combat maneuvers.
My interpretation of the rules and readied actions, you can attack their weapon or limb as they're attack enters your square. The feat would allow you much greater benefit.
Anyhow, the feats existence nullifies any argument within rules I could come up with.. for now.
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The feat strike back makes it so you can't do the thing the OP wants without the feat.
Personally I consider it an unfair feat tax and think it's something that should be allowed as a basic action. I mean, it already requires you to ready an action to use, meaning that the enemy has to fulfill your condition in order for you to even get an action. That's enough of a cost right there.
You should be able to ready a sunder attempt in the event that you're attacked, however this triggers an Attack of Opportunity unless you have Improved Sunder.
It's that simple.
You should be able to ready a sunder attempt in the event that you're attacked, however this triggers an Attack of Opportunity unless you have Improved Sunder.
It's that simple.
By the rules you cannot. You do not threaten the opponent, and outside of the strike back feat you must be within range to strike at the opponents square.
I understand that people don't like that. I agree with you that's not how the rules should work. However, statements like this muddy the waters on the topic because people might think you are making a rules based argument.