Throwing Shield action economy


Rules Questions

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Silver Crusade

18 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Since this has popped up in at least two recent threads in the Advice forum, and seems to be the topic of some vitriolic debate, I figured I would get an FAQ request going since it seems to be a relatively simple answer.

What is the action economy relevant to making an attack with a throwing shield?

The throwing shield entry states that you can "unstrap and attack with it" as a free action. I take this to mean that unstrapping it is a free action, and the attack takes up one of the attacks granted by your BAB.

Others insist that RAW is RAW, and you could get a throwing shield and a blinkback belt and make theoretically infinite attacks with a full attack action.

Grand Lodge

The GM is expected to make calls on how many times you can use free actions in a round. I probably wouldn't have a problem with letting someone get a free toss of a throwing shield, but for that specific free action, I would rule it to only be once per round.

The FAQ on number of free actions per turn is pretty clear that limiting a free action like this is one of the decisions that the GM is responsible for.


...seriously?

Its a free action to ready to throw. The game is not giving you free action attacks for 15 gold a piece.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

...seriously?

Its a free action to ready to throw. The game is not giving you free action attacks for 15 gold a piece.

Of course not. They're free.


Throwing Shield wrote:
This shield is designed for throwing and has specially designed straps allowing you to unclasp and throw it as a free action. Tower shields cannot be throwing shields. Neither a shield’s enhancement bonus to AC nor its shield spikes apply on your attack or damage rolls.

Nope, thats pretty clearly an all in one free action attack. Granted its still limited by the number of attacks you are allowed to make in a round (bab), but its nice for extra utility. Also where did you get 15 gold from?

Throwing shields add 50 gp to the cost of a shield. I don't think the throwing ability will work with a blinkback belt however, the description of the shield implies it has to be "clasped" before you can "unclasp and throw it".

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

FAQ on Attacks and Extra Attacks

SKR explaining the core rules do not allow for extra attacks

This is a FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTION. I've never seen anyone try this at a table, and for that I'm glad the overwhelming majority of players can read this rule properly.

Previous threads:
46 FAQ Clicks
How many attacks with throwing shields?
Basically a free attack
Throw it 59 million times in a round and it exceeds the speed of light
5 FAQ Clicks
It's Munster Cheese
Throw and Throw and Throw again
Reading and Drawing is a free action, not throwing
A frequent individual pushing this comes into another infinite overrun bull rush chain discussion to point out the throwing "infinite" attacks
A pattern of one individual coming into unrelated threads to bring up the throwing shield infinite
Same individual again
Same individual giving it out as build advice
Same person, more build advice
Nice thread where someone pleads to not bring up the bad wording by asserting free attacks while talking about other cool stuff
Same person brings it up during rules discussion of how to use a throwing shield
How many shields is that guy carrying?

This has been around for a while, and I'm pretty sure this FAQ is why they haven't bothered responding to this. No one is confused by it and any GM can say "um NO dude".


I'm not sure how 'that FAQ' limits free actions in any meaningful way.

A 20th level fighter with quickdraw, greater TWF and rapid shot notices an enemy and responds by drops his torch, yelling a warning to everyone and makes a full attack. A reasonable set of actions that add up to double digit free action. A limit less than that is a real kick to the 'privates' of martials so IMO, 'rule 0' is a better reason to say "um NO dude" than that FAQ. Remember that they had to remove "specific examples" because it was proved that that a limit of 2-3 WASN'T "reasonable"...

Now either rule 0 or 'that FAQ' COULD stop an infinite loop but only rule 0 stops the "reasonable" 10+ free actions a normal pathfinder character SHOULD be able to take with a free action attack.

Silver Crusade

For the record, I think the description of the item is poorly worded and agree with BNW's interpretation. It's just that somebody derailed one of advice threads, so I decided to put up the FAQ thread.


IMO the reason the "blinkback" loop doesn't work is that the throwing shield doesn't alter the "ready a shield" action that takes a move action. Only a readied shield can make use of the free action "unclasp and throw". So at best you could free attack, move to ready, free attack ready and free throw. So 3 first round, 2 after. If this is all you're doing by the level you can buy a blinkback belt, I don't see an issue.

So I'm fine with either free action 'ready' throw or free action attack as neither seem abusive.

Grand Lodge

I'm confident that part of the reason that they leave free limits vague is because different types of free actions need to be considered differently. some you may be able to do several times in a round, others it may be more reasonable to limit to 3 times in a round. Some, like the throwing shield if you take the RAW as giving a free attack, should likely be limited to once in a round.

If they gave a hard limit, then you either get a problem where the limit doesn't even stop the types of excesses that you want it to (like throwing multiple throwing shields in a round) or it becomes a burden to the system where if you want to drop a weapon, quickdraw another, yell a warning to someone, and then drop prone... well all of a sudden you can't do all those things in the same round because they set the limit at 3 (I'm not advocating for a 3 free action limit)

It's better for them to leave it in the hands of the GM to determine what combinations of free actions can all be done in the same round, and take it on a case by case basis


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Bigdaddyjug wrote:

Since this has popped up in at least two recent threads in the Advice forum, and seems to be the topic of some vitriolic debate, I figured I would get an FAQ request going since it seems to be a relatively simple answer.

What is the action economy relevant to making an attack with a throwing shield?

The throwing shield entry states that you can "unstrap and attack with it" as a free action. I take this to mean that unstrapping it is a free action, and the attack takes up one of the attacks granted by your BAB.

Others insist that RAW is RAW, and you could get a throwing shield and a blinkback belt and make theoretically infinite attacks with a full attack action.

It's an obvious typo, based on the other information at hand and the clear intent behind the text.

Throwing Shields cost an additional 50 gold, and aren't simply 50 gold by themselves, which means that, like Shield Spikes, they are a "template" you attach to an eligible crafted shield (of which Tower Shields aren't eligible, but ironically Bucklers and the other types are). So, anything that isn't a Tower Shield, per the rules, can be a Throwing Shield. (If a GM says Bucklers and such can't be Throwing Shields, I wouldn't blame him.)

This also means that Throwing Shields also count as an item of the base shield's type for other purposes, such as if I had a Light Shield, I could both bash with it, use Weapon Finesse with it for melee attacks, and use it as a throwing weapon. Although there can be an argument that you must be proficient in the Throwing Shield to bash with it (lest you incur a -4 penalty), because the Throwing Shield's weapon entry has specific damage when used to throw (which is in addition to its base uses), it's safe to say that proficiency in a Throwing Shield only removes the penalty when it's thrown as a weapon, and not when it's used in its other functions (which would require their own, respective proficiencies).

Shields are originally designed to be worn through a strap on the hand/forearm, meaning any attempt to throw it would require spending a Move Action to remove it, as stated in the Getting Into and Out of Armor section. This means for any level past 6 (and hell, even in the levels before that), the Throwing Shield would be beyond useless, and impractical compared to drawing a Longbow and making a full attack that way, which is obviously not the intent behind a weapon specifically designed to be an efficient throwing weapon.

From all of this, it's quite clear the intent behind the Free Action clause is that it's meant to let you circumvent the "remove as a Move Action" restriction that you'd have to perform in order to use it as a thrown weapon. Arguing otherwise is stretching the RAW to unbelievable levels that no sane GM would allow, and easily goes against the design intent behind the Throwing Shield.


dwayne germaine wrote:
It's better for them to leave it in the hands of the GM to determine what combinations of free actions can all be done in the same round, and take it on a case by case basis

LOL I agree 100%. That's what makes the FAQ meaningless as you end up NOT with a limit on free actions but on certain actions, which ends up falling under rule zero and not the FAQ.

When the FAQ was made they forgot reloading takes free actions, thinking of reloading as part of the action of making the attack even though the game doesn't work that way. In essence they where thinking of reloading like "Not an Actions" that "are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow" instead of a separate, independent action you can perform while taking another action normally. Once that was pointed out, the suggested 'reasonable' example limit of 2-3 vanished.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

It would be good I guess to burn a FAQ slot on this. So if you have not FAQ the 1st post here or the "46 FAQ" version I linked above (or both) then please do so.


Hitting the FAQ button on the 46 clicks would be more likely to yield a response (no offense to the OP, but the numbers are more favorable there).

Here's the link to the opening post, make sure you FAQ it if you haven't already.


James Risner wrote:
It would be good I guess to burn a FAQ slot on this. So if you have not FAQ the 1st post here or the "46 FAQ" version I linked above (or both) then please do so.

I would rather get something that's an actual gray area.

Silver Crusade

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Hitting the FAQ button on the 46 clicks would be more likely to yield a response (no offense to the OP, but the numbers are more favorable there).

Here's the link to the opening post, make sure you FAQ it if you haven't already.

The numbers don't lie and they spell disaster for my post at Sackerfice.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

BigNorseWolf wrote:
James Risner wrote:
It would be good I guess to burn a FAQ slot on this. So if you have not FAQ the 1st post here or the "46 FAQ" version I linked above (or both) then please do so.
I would rather get something that's an actual gray area.

I agree, but, most of the gray areas have everyone saying it's gray.

This is an issue with a minority of people who simply can not agree it's gray.


James Risner wrote:


This is an issue with a minority of people who simply can not agree it's gray.

and will not no matter what you do.

The faq will PROVE that the original wording let you make 87 attacks per round.

A spiked throwing shield is entirely different right?

OOO! what if i make the throwing shields diminutive, and wear them as pieces of flare with pithy sayings, THEN I can throw 50 of them right?

I have an old book without the faq, that means it's still legal right?

People are not trying to understand a rule they are trying to justify a mechanical advantage and a pedantic way of reading the rules that the rules simply do not support.


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I dunno, BNW. Even among people who agree that there are people trying to justify exploiting a mechanical advantage can't agree on the way it does work. I'm not even certain what the popular opinion of how it works IS. Personally I am of two minds on the subject. RAW I think it can be thrown as an attack. But for balance reason it seems like you should get more of an advantage for your investment so I think it SHOULD be one extra attack per turn.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

"your investment" is 50 gp in cost?

I guess I'm really saying is that I don't see a lot of disagreement on how it works.


Lune wrote:
I dunno, BNW. Even among people who agree that there are people trying to justify exploiting a mechanical advantage can't agree on the way it does work.

Who's seriously disagreeing?

Its a shield. You can throw it just as if it were a dagger in your hand instead of having to take a move action to unstrap it from your arm. Whats' the confusion?

Quote:
But for balance reason it seems like you should get more of an advantage for your investment so I think it SHOULD be one extra attack per turn.

50 gp per attack is NOT balanced.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Lune wrote:
I dunno, BNW. Even among people who agree that there are people trying to justify exploiting a mechanical advantage can't agree on the way it does work.

Who's seriously disagreeing?

Its a shield. You can throw it just as if it were a dagger in your hand instead of having to take a move action to unstrap it from your arm. Whats' the confusion?

Quote:
But for balance reason it seems like you should get more of an advantage for your investment so I think it SHOULD be one extra attack per turn.
50 gp per attack is NOT balanced.

I made a thread that explains the several sides (which isn't a conclusive list, I might add), which I linked to in my previous post.

There's also other factors of the Throwing Shield that need answering besides the obvious throwing issue that you're overlooking.

One clear example is what Exotic Weapon Proficiency does for a Throwing Shield; does it mean I can't throw it properly without having proficiency, or would that penalty apply to making bashes with that shield as well (assuming it's eligible to bash with)?

Logic would dictate that it's the former, but considering that a Throwing Shield is designed similarly to, say, a Bastard Sword is to a Longsword, a GM who argues that attempting to bash with a Throwing Shield (even if it was made as a Light Shield) would incur a -4 penalty because you aren't proficient in the Throwing Shield's clearly different design, may not technically be wrong either.

We also need to consider if effects which can go on Shield Weapons (such as Bashing) can apply to other intended uses of that Shield Weapon. In other words, would a Bashing Throwing Shield deal 2D6 damage on throwing, or would it stick to 1D6 because you aren't Bashing with a Throwing Shield, and as such its benefits wouldn't apply?

Also, what about Bucklers? Are they eligible to be made into Throwing Shields? Because by RAW, they are, but I have a feeling that RAI, they shouldn't, since Tower Shields aren't eligible for similar reasons that Bucklers shouldn't.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

...seriously?

Its a free action to ready to throw. The game is not giving you free action attacks for 15 gold a piece.

Seriously, according to the rules of the game, throwing a Throwing Shield is actually a Free Action.

Throwing Shield wrote:
This shield is designed for throwing and has specially designed straps allowing you to unclasp and throw it as a free action.

It doesn't say "unclasped to be thrown." It says "unclasped and throw."

Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Others insist that RAW is RAW, and you could get a throwing shield and a blinkback belt and make theoretically infinite attacks with a full attack action.

So I would be one of those others. But bear in mind what you said yourself:

Bigdaddyjug wrote:
theoretically

Remember what the rules on Free Actions say.

Free Action, Core Rulebook wrote:
However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.

So, in practice, this should just about never be and infinity Free Action Attack Loop unless the GM decides that it is. The rules as written have already put a brake on this wheel.

Other than that, it would be for the player and the GM to negotiate what is "reasonable."

BigNorseWolf wrote:
15 gold a piece... 50 gp per attack is NOT balanced.

It costs a good deal more than 15 or even 50gp/attack! To achieve the effect, you need a 5000gp magic belt and 2 Feats: Quickdraw and EWP Throwing Shield. You should get something good for that.

For instance, what if I were a level 1 Monk with Panther Claw and a 16 Wisdom (The minimum Wisdom for Panther Claw is 15.). I could get 3 Free Action Attacks and another attack as a Standard Action. That comes at the cost of 4 Feats: Panther Claw, Panther Style, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Unarmed Strike. So we have a character that can get 3 bonus Free-Action Attacks at the cost of 4 Feats. How many is reasonable at the cost of 2 Feats and a 5000gp Belt?

3? I wouldn't say so: Panther Claw is limited to Unarmed Strikes, and it only triggers upon Movement out of Threatened Squares. The Free Action Attacks from Throwing Shield would not have any caveats, to wits, nor wherefores: you can use it close up or at range, as part of a Full Attack, alone or in conjunction with other weapon attacks. You get to still enjoy your Shield Bonus to AC. As a player, would I try for 2? sure I would, but I'd be content with even 1 bonus attack on top of my Full Attack.

Lune wrote:
But for balance reason it seems like you should get more of an advantage for your investment so I think it SHOULD be one extra attack per turn.

That.

What else would I use this for? To make Attacks of Opportunity with in conjunction with Snap Shot or Relentless Shot and Greater Trip (Throwing Shields are Tripping Weapons.) With Snap Shot and Improve Snapshot, you could Cleave with it, I guess. You can often make Free Actions in conjunction with other Actions, such as the Free Grapple you get with the Grab Ability, Quickdrawing Thrown Weapons as part of your Ranged Full Attack, and I'm pretty sure few GMs would balk at Quickdrawing any other weapon in conjunction with an Attack of Opportunity.


Ridiculon wrote:
Nope, thats pretty clearly an all in one free action attack. Granted its still limited by the number of attacks you are allowed to make in a round (bab),

I am not aware of an overarching rule that limits the number of Attacks you can make in a round that is dictated by your Base Attack Bonus. Would you please link to that rule?

It seems counterintuitive. There are lots of ways to get bonus attacks that have nothing to do with your base Attack bonus. Granted to get Great Cleave, you need a BAB of +4, but you can get like 8 Attacks/round with Great Cleave, like double that if you have Reach.

There is the Panther Claw Monk I just described with 4 attacks/round and a BAB of +0.

A level 1 Tengu White Haired Witch with the Claws Trait gets 7: Hair, Grapple, Bite, 2 Claws, and 2 Unarmed Strikes, also with a BAB of +0.

Then there are Attack of Opportunity Feats.

A level 6 Druid that Wildshapes into a Giant Octopus gets 8 Tentacles with Grab and Constrict, a Bite, and 2 Unarmed Strikes, for 19 attacks/round and a BAB of +4.

Granted, having a high Base Attack Bonus does grant you some bonus attacks when you take the Full Attack Action. But I would be surprised if anyone can really produce a written rule that puts an overarching limits on the number of attacks you can make in a round based on your Base Attack Bonus. It just doesn't make sense.

I think the limit on the Throwing Shield Free Action Attack loop is found within the rules governing Free Actions themselves, not in a rule capping the number of Attacks/round based on BAB.


graystone wrote:

IMO the reason the "blinkback" loop doesn't work is that the throwing shield doesn't alter the "ready a shield" action that takes a move action. Only a readied shield can make use of the free action "unclasp and throw". So at best you could free attack, move to ready, free attack ready and free throw. So 3 first round, 2 after. If this is all you're doing by the level you can buy a blinkback belt, I don't see an issue.

So I'm fine with either free action 'ready' throw or free action attack as neither seem abusive.

A Throwing Shield can also be a Quickdraw Throwing Shield. If you have the Quickdraw Feat, drawing a Quickdraw Shield is a Free Action.

The thing in the rules that keeps this from being and Infinity-Damage-I-win-at-D&D Free Action Attack Loop is found in the description of Free Actions themselves, specifically empowering the GM to put "reasonable limits" on how many actions you can take for Free.

Silver Crusade

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Lune wrote:
But for balance reason it seems like you should get more of an advantage for your investment so I think it SHOULD be one extra attack per turn.
That.

I buy them all the time. It is worth 50gp to have getting rid of a shield be 2 free actions. My 2 handed weapon fighter sort carries one to increase his flatfooted AC, my spell casters can carry a shield and drop it if carrying things becone awkward, etc.

Free attacks for 50gp is absurdly broken


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Ridiculon wrote:
Nope, thats pretty clearly an all in one free action attack. Granted its still limited by the number of attacks you are allowed to make in a round (bab),

I am not aware of an overarching rule that limits the number of Attacks you can make in a round that is dictated by your Base Attack Bonus. Would you please link to that rule?

It seems counterintuitive. There are lots of ways to get bonus attacks that have nothing to do with your base Attack bonus. Granted to get Great Cleave, you need a BAB of +4, but you can get like 8 Attacks/round with Great Cleave, like double that if you have Reach.

There is the Panther Claw Monk I just described with 4 attacks/round and a BAB of +0.

A level 1 Tengu White Haired Witch with the Claws Trait gets 7: Hair, Grapple, Bite, 2 Claws, and 2 Unarmed Strikes, also with a BAB of +0.

Then there are Attack of Opportunity Feats.

A level 6 Druid that Wildshapes into a Giant Octopus gets 8 Tentacles with Grab and Constrict, a Bite, and 2 Unarmed Strikes, for 19 attacks/round and a BAB of +4.

Granted, having a high Base Attack Bonus does grant you some bonus attacks when you take the Full Attack Action. But I would be surprised if anyone can really produce a written rule that puts an overarching limits on the number of attacks you can make in a round based on your Base Attack Bonus. It just doesn't make sense.

I think the limit on the Throwing Shield Free Action Attack loop is found within the rules governing Free Actions themselves, not in a rule capping the number of Attacks/round based on BAB.

You are correct, there isnt a rule that limits the number of attacks you can make. But in this case the shield is not giving any attacks beyond your BAB, thus your BAB is effectively the max number of attacks you can make per round.

Unlike an opportunity attack (which explicitly gives you a free attack), a cleave ("If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat"), a flurry ("When doing so, he may make one additional attack, taking a –2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.") this item does not give you an extra attack, it simply allows you to make an attack using an action other than a standard action. The fact that you aren't using a standard action does not affect how many attacks you get to make that round, you are still tied to the number of attacks you get from your BAB.

Again, nowhere in the description of the shield does it say it gives you an extra attack. What it actually does is allow you to unclasp (normally a move action) and throw (normally a standard) the shield all as a single free action. This is a great savings in the action economy, but it is most definitely not an extra attack.

In practice the shield gives you some extra options, like allowing you to double move and still make one (or however many free actions your GM decides to give you up to your bab) attack. On a normal full attack it basically allows you to substitue the shield attack for one of your other weapons (drop a weapon in your hand and throw the shield) without quickdraw. If you want an extra attack using the shield you will have to use Two Weapon Fighting, however since two weapon fighting only works on full attacks you will of course have to make a full attack to get that extra attack.

Silver Crusade

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The number of attacks you can make in a round is not constricted by BAB alone, but by a combination of BAB and the number of "hands" of action you can exert. Without feats, a normal level 1 human can exert 2 hands worth of action per round. At BAB +6, they get an extra main hand action. Imp Two Weapon Fighting gives you an extra offhand action. Certain traits, feats, or items can add a bite or gore attack.

Octopi get the number of attacks they do because they have 8 "hands" and a bite attack. I don't agree that they would also get the 2 unarmed attacks, but I'd have to look into it more. And if they did, all of their natural attacks would be secondary and at a -5.

You're implying that simply buying a 15g item gives you an extra attack on top of all of the normal "hands" worth of action you get. That's insane.


pauljathome wrote:
Free attacks for 50gp is absurdly broken
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
You're implying that simply buying a 15g item gives you an extra attack on top of all of the normal "hands" worth of action you get. That's insane.

That's not what I'm saying at all!

I'm saying you should get a reasonable number of extra attacks at the cost of a 5000gp Magic Belt and 2 Feats.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
pauljathome wrote:
Free attacks for 50gp is absurdly broken
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
You're implying that simply buying a 15g item gives you an extra attack on top of all of the normal "hands" worth of action you get. That's insane.

That's not what I'm saying at all!

I'm saying you should get a reasonable number of extra attacks at the cost of a 5000gp Magic Belt and 2 Feats.

Yes. And that "reasonable number" would be less than or equal to the number of attacks you normally get from making a Full Attack Action. And it'd require a Full Round Action to do so.

Oh, and you'd need Proficiency, or you suffer a -4 penalty from all of those attacks.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

...seriously?

Its a free action to ready to throw. The game is not giving you free action attacks for 15 gold a piece.

Seriously, according to the rules of the game, throwing a Throwing Shield is actually a Free Action.

Seriously that statement is monumentally offensive. No one should seriously believes it is a free action attack. I get that you can violate the spirit and rules to assert as much. That doesn't make your assertion correct or what the rules say.

This reminds me of a D&D 3.5 light weapon printed as "1d3" subscript 3 where the two threes were not proper layout so it looked like 1d33. Some people asserted that's a d33 die. They were wrong. This scenario is identical. You don't get free action additional attacks, period.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
pauljathome wrote:
Free attacks for 50gp is absurdly broken
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
You're implying that simply buying a 15g item gives you an extra attack on top of all of the normal "hands" worth of action you get. That's insane.

That's not what I'm saying at all!

I'm saying you should get a reasonable number of extra attacks at the cost of a 5000gp Magic Belt and 2 Feats.

Yes. And that "reasonable number" would be less than or equal to the number of attacks you normally get from making a Full Attack Action. And it'd require a Full Round Action to do so.

Oh, and you'd need Proficiency, or you suffer a -4 penalty from all of those attacks.

I specified that Exotic Weapon Proficiency with the Throwing Shield is required. That was one of the 2 Feats I mentioned.

Seriously, when a player spends 2 Feats, a Belt Slot, and 5000gp, he deserves better than a GM who folds his arms and says, "I think the reasonable number of Free Actions you should get is zero." That sounds like a GM who is going against GM 101

GM 101 wrote:
This does not mean that you can gleefully crush the life and joy out of your players

And is being less than reasonable.

I don't think it's per the rules as intended that a GM should seek excuses to deny PCs benefits that their players have them pay for. It's not like we're talking about breaking the game.

But, as you point out, per RAW, a GM can do that.


James Risner wrote:
I get that you can violate the spirit and rules to assert as much. That doesn't make your assertion correct or what the rules say.

No spirit that I have violated makes my assertion correct. No spirit wrote the rules.

What makes my assertion correct is what the rules say. And

what the rules wrote:
[is that] This shield is designed for throwing and has specially designed straps allowing you to unclasp and throw it as a free action.

And please stop making personal remarks. The way I conduct myself in the presence of spirits is not a fit topic for debate.

I am giving the best opinion I can based on what the rules literally say. I am not offering my person as evidence, so attacking my person does not weaken my assertions.

The Exchange

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

Since this has popped up in at least two recent threads in the Advice forum, and seems to be the topic of some vitriolic debate, I figured I would get an FAQ request going since it seems to be a relatively simple answer.

What is the action economy relevant to making an attack with a throwing shield?

The throwing shield entry states that you can "unstrap and attack with it" as a free action. I take this to mean that unstrapping it is a free action, and the attack takes up one of the attacks granted by your BAB.

Others insist that RAW is RAW, and you could get a throwing shield and a blinkback belt and make theoretically infinite attacks with a full attack action.

IF you want to look at RAW, then ignore the picking and choosing which phrases to select, look at what the entries actually say!

Throwing Shield: wrote:
This shield is designed for throwing and has specially designed straps allowing you to unclasp and throw it as a free action. Tower shields cannot be throwing shields. Neither a shield's enhancement bonus to AC nor its shield spikes apply on your attack or damage rolls.
BLINKBACK BELT wrote:

Price 5,000 gp; Aura moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Weight 2 lbs.

A set of clips is attached to this segmented belt constructed of metallic links. Up to two one-handed melee weapons or up to four light melee weapons can be hung from the belt in straps or sheaths. When the wearer draws a weapon attached to this belt and throws it before the end of her next turn, the weapon teleports back to its strap or sheath immediately after the attack is resolved.

First, those are the item descriptions, but if you look at the weapon chart for throwing shield, you see it is listed as a 2 handed weapon. Instantly Blinkback Belt CAN NOT apply to it!

So you want to Try Returning Enchantment instead?

Returning: wrote:
This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown. A returning weapon flies through the air back to the creature that threw it. It returns to the thrower just before the creature's next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn). Catching a returning weapon when it comes back is a free action. If the character can't catch it, or if the character has moved since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square from which it was thrown.

Well first Returning only returns just before your next turn, so first it's only 1 attack, so you figure, well ok that's still 1 free attack every round, it will add up. But then you have to look closely at the wording for RAW to apply to things, first looking at the Throwing shield, throwing is not a free action, "unclasp AND throw" is a free action. So you have to do BOTH, if you have it in hand, and just want to throw it, that's not covered under the specific rule 'by RAW' that lets you unclasp and throw as a free action. Now look at returning weapon, you have to 'catch' the weapon, so it's not clasped to your arm, it is held in hand. So unless you spend the time to reclasp it (not free) you can not unclasp and throw again as a free action 'by RAW'.

So by RAW you get 1 free attack, pretty much your free ride is over once that attack is done.


James Risner wrote:
No one... seriously believes it is a free action attack.

So, appeal to popular opinion is a widely abused fallacy in internet debates. But I have to admit there is some merit in this case. It looks like you are arguing your point based on the way people play the game. And I must say the but-that's-not-the-way-the-game-is-played argument is legit.

I have some problems with your argument in this case.

* You haven't brought any evidence to support it. Show me a scientifically rigorous survey of how the game is played vis a vis Throwing Shields, sampling from all the players, not just contributors to this forum.

* Even if you did bring some kind of survey, your incessant ad hominem attacks empower me to dismiss any gathered popular opinion as evidence. You have empowered me to say that perhaps the majority of players and referees agree with me about Throwing Shields, and the only place where I stand in the minority is in my willingness to stand up to online bullies like you.

* Meanwhile, even if my position is unusual, that is no reason to disallow it. Pathfinder Society is supposed to accommodate a variety of playing styles. So, accommodate mine!


Glorf Fei-Hung wrote:
First, those are the item descriptions, but if you look at the weapon chart for throwing shield, you see it is listed as a 2 handed weapon. Instantly Blinkback Belt CAN NOT apply to it!

I think you are mistaken. Throwing Shield is listed as a Ranged Weapon. And the descriptions of Throwing Shields say that either a Light or Heavy Shield can be Throwing Shields. A Light Shield is a Light Weapon. A Heavy Shield is a 1 handed weapon. This is why I think a Quickdraw, Throwing Shield can indeed be used with a Blinkback Belt.

Am I mistaken? Where did you find that Throwing Shields are 2 handed Weapons?


I dunno what the issue is with this. Clearly, you can unclasp and throw the shield as a free action. But throwing the shield is not the same as attacking with it. You can in theory throw as many shields as you have with as many free actions as you want to use, but attacking with those shields is another story entirely.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
pauljathome wrote:
Free attacks for 50gp is absurdly broken
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
You're implying that simply buying a 15g item gives you an extra attack on top of all of the normal "hands" worth of action you get. That's insane.

That's not what I'm saying at all!

I'm saying you should get a reasonable number of extra attacks at the cost of a 5000gp Magic Belt and 2 Feats.

Yes. And that "reasonable number" would be less than or equal to the number of attacks you normally get from making a Full Attack Action. And it'd require a Full Round Action to do so.

Oh, and you'd need Proficiency, or you suffer a -4 penalty from all of those attacks.

I specified that Exotic Weapon Proficiency with the Throwing Shield is required. That was one of the 2 Feats I mentioned.

Seriously, when a player spends 2 Feats, a Belt Slot, and 5000gp, he deserves better than a GM who folds his arms and says, "I think the reasonable number of Free Actions you should get is zero." That sounds like a GM who is going against GM 101

GM 101 wrote:
This does not mean that you can gleefully crush the life and joy out of your players

And is being less than reasonable.

I don't think it's per the rules as intended that a GM should seek excuses to deny PCs benefits that their players have them pay for. It's not like we're talking about breaking the game.

But, as you point out, per RAW, a GM can do that.

Let's break down a typical throwing activity. Let's take a Javelin, for fun example. If I draw a Javelin, and throw it to attack an enemy, no feats, gold, or slots expended, that means I have to:

-Spend a Standard Action to perform the Attack Action
-Roll to hit the enemy, and deal damage if it succeeds
-Lose the Javelin from my possession, as it's been used to throw at the enemy (and if it hits, chances are it's lodged in its chest).

That's the base line for throwing a weapon. This doesn't include things like firing into melee combat (which requires the Precise Shot feat, which requires the Point Blank Shot feat), taking Rapid Shot for extra attacks, Deadly Aim so you can get Power Attack for melee combat, Quick Draw so you can constantly make attacks with disposable Javelins, TWF for reduced penalties, and all of that stuff. Or Magic Items like you've suggested.

Without all of that fancy stuff, throwing weaponry is extremely suboptimal post 6th level without further investment, because compared to a character who is full-attacking in melee, that ranged character has to commit tons of feats to maintain relevance (i.e. no bonus feats means you can't reasonably do that option), whereas the melee guy has maybe one feat to commit to his playstyle (Power Attack), and the rest is for him to decide.

This isn't a case of "Oh, he's trying to do something fancy, I should let him have his fun!" This is a case of "Is this enough investment for X playstyle to not suck/be overpowered?" To which, I say "No," on both sides of the spectrum (it's not enough to make it suck, and it's not enough to warrant the potential abuse that can arise from allowing certain aspects to come to fruition).

All he's spent is a feat (which was a feat tax compared to a Composite Bow character, mind you), another feat (which is either another feat tax or certainly not enough to justify his ability to be good enough in comparison to a Bow character), and some money for an item that makes it so that he doesn't have to take feats like Quick Draw, and only ever stick to non-magical/Masterwork throwing weapons. Compared to a Composite Bow character who has a +1 Adaptive Bow (costs ~3,000 gold, but no item slot), and over half-a-dozen feats, without relying on some RAW cheese, it's not enough to warrant him being that effective, and most certainly not to be more effective than a Composite Bow character, a standard against which all ranged playstyles are tested.

Also, the funny thing about this thing called "reasonable" is that, like most other (ambiguous) rules in the game, it's subject to interpretation. To you, it's reasonable to be able to make Free Action attacks.

To me, I don't think being able to make Free Action attacks, especially when the rule (as you've stated) isn't intended to function that way, is more than reasonable to enforce such a ruling.


Glorf, throwing shield is under its own heading in ultimate combat: its the only ranged weapon on that chart, its not a two handed weapon.

Silver Crusade

I pray to god I never play at a table with you Scott. Otherwise my eyes may roll so far back in my head I go blind.

Grand Lodge

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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
* Meanwhile, even if my position is unusual, that is no reason to disallow it. Pathfinder Society is supposed to accommodate a variety of playing styles. So, accommodate mine!

No.


Player: I throw my dagger at that enemy.
GM: Ok. ...wait, why are you rolling to hit?
Player: Because I attacked the enemy.
GM: Um... no. You just said that you threw your dagger at the enemy. That isn't the same as an attack.
Player: What?! That is absurd. Whatever, can I attack them with my dagger instead?
GM: Well, you could except that you already threw it at the enemy and it is now over there.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
* Meanwhile, even if my position is unusual, that is no reason to disallow it. Pathfinder Society is supposed to accommodate a variety of playing styles. So, accommodate mine!
No.

His method of play style should not be accommodated.

It isn't the rules and PFS requests you follow the rules.
It is deeply offensive to other players at the table.
It is something most won't even take seriously.


Wildstag wrote:
I dunno what the issue is with this. Clearly, you can unclasp and throw the shield as a free action. But throwing the shield is not the same as attacking with it. You can in theory throw as many shields as you have with as many free actions as you want to use, but attacking with those shields is another story entirely.

"Unclasp and throw a shield as a free action" is in the description of the Throwing Shield as a weapon. They are describing how you use it as a weapon.

Compare it with other weapons you throw.

Spear wrote:
A spear is 5 feet in length and can be thrown.
Shortspear wrote:
A shortspear is about 3 feet in length, making it a suitable thrown weapon.
Shuriken wrote:
A shuriken is a small piece of metal with sharpened edges, designed for throwing.... they are thrown weapons
Starknife wrote:
A wielder can stab with the starknife or throw it.
Trident wrote:
A trident has three metal prongs at end of a 4-foot-long shaft. This weapon can be thrown.

In the weapons sections of the rulebooks, they are describing how you use the weapons as weapons. "Throw" in this context clearly means "make an attack by throwing the weapon."

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