Best ways for Sorcerers to deal with the more powerful Swarms

[BretI]

At the low levels, something simple like Snapdragon Fireworks can work on swarms. When you get to the moderate levels (5-7), it just doesn't cut it.

Having recently faced a higher level swarm with around 85 HP and a touch AC in the 20s, I need a new solution for my Sorcerer in PFS. I have about 8K cash at the moment so I was thinking a page of spell known for a 2nd level spell at a cost of 4K.

Suggestions?

Current spell list:

0: Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation
1: Charm Person, Floating Disk, Grease, Magic Missile, Snapdragon Fireworks, Blur, Glitterdust, Invisibility
3: Major Image

There is also the option of just taking that 4K and buying a swarm bane clasp to hand off to someone else.

[Saldiven]

The best options against swarms are area effect spells, because swarms take an extra 50% of damage against such.

So, first level Burning Hands and the like are good. No to-hit roll and extra damage.

At third level, spells like Fireball make short work of swarms, unless they are resistant to fire. Again, no to-hit roll and extra damage.

Lastly, if the swarm is made up of tiny or fine creatures, spells like Wind Wall and Gust of Wind can be very effective.

[ShroudedInLight]

Fireball.

In all seriousness, give me a minute to see if I can dig up anything 2nd level. The main problem I see with your spell list is that all of your spells are defensive, illusions, or conjuration effects. You have no form of damage outside of your 1st level spells, so of course you are having trouble.

Edit:

Spells roughly in order of level:
Burning Hands, Flaming Sphere, Frostfall, Ice slick, Explosive Runes (Written on a piece of meat), Ice Spears, Pellet Blast, Silver Darts, Call the Void, Diamond Spray, Elemental Aura, Lightning Bolt.

I also approve of Rain of Frogs or Swarm of Fangs simply because Swarm v Swarm is hysterical.

[Chromantic Durgon <3]

Fire breath is a second level Aoe that gives you so,e decent bang for your buck.
Or take fireball.

[Rory]

Flaming Sphere is the best 2nd level area effect spell I know. You can hit the swarm over multiple rounds and block it's path potentially.

Option: You could spend your 4000gp on a Page of Spell Knowledge for Burning Hands (1000gp) and then get a Lesser Rod of Intensify Spell (3000gp). This will allow you to use the rod in the future on other spells.

Option: You could also pay some PP and gold to retrain Snapdragon Fireworks into Burning Hands, or Blur into your offensive second level spell.

[BretI]

Thanks for all the answers!

I knew about the +50% damage from AoEs, but had overlooked Flaming Sphere as a possible spell. Although it may have been enough in this case, still I would likely be better off with a swarmbane clasp at that point. Most fighters at my level are doing more than an average of 11 damage a round, and it is slightly cheaper than a page of spell knowledge for that spell.

A page of spell knowledge for a 3rd level spell costs more than I currently have. Given the prevalence of fire resistance, I would probably need a elemental metamagic rod to go with it if I selected the Fireball spell.

Frost Fall looks like a good option because it does multiple things and isn't fire damage. I also like that it isn't a cone, so I can cast it from a short distance away. I would still want to look at an elemental metamagic rod at some point.

Although I had fun with Snapdragon Fireworks, it appears to have outlived it's usefulness. I'll be sad to do so, but guess I'll trade it out at 8th level for something else.

So right now it looks like the swarmbane clasp or a page of spell knowledge for Frost Fall.

[plaidwandering]

higher level swarms start to get really annoying because the designers had a brain aneurysm when they wrote them

they get the dex ac/reflex bonus and size ac bonus of an individual diminutive creature(or insert appropriate size), but when you are lobbing bombs or area spells it isn't the individual creature that is relevant, but rather the large size cluster of them

I once threw a 10d6 fireball at a few swarms in a PFS scenario and ended up doing 9 damage after save and resists.(I thought it should be 14, different order of operations)

a heavy physical dps with the clasp would have easily hit the rigged AC and likely done much more damage.

[Malkin the Magician]

A little out of the box have you considered gusting sphere (sylph only PFS) or gust of wind and blow them away while also doing damage.

[BretI]

Gust of wind would not have worked in the case of the swarm which caused our whole group to flee -- after we had used about 10 alchemist fire and other resources. The creatures were crawling fine vermin.

Gust of Wind also seems to be a very specialized spell. I could see using a mnemonic vestment and a scroll to do it, but not a page of spell knowledge. My sorcerer is a Gnome, so the other spell wouldn't be an option.

The clasp is looking really good, especially since I get new 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spells next level.

Still a very useful discussion since I still need to decide on my spells for next level. I had wanted Haste at 3rd, but an AoE like Lightning Bolt may be a better choice given the rest of my spells.

Are swarms of fine creatures immune to Trample? It isn't weapon damage. Summon Monster III can bring in Aurochs that have the Trample special attack. That would be more flexible since it would also allow the summoning of small elementals.

[Ascalaphus]

Trample looks reasonable to me, it's closer to area damage than "oh, poking a single bug with your sword isn't going to do much to the swarm". But I'm not sure every GM would agree, the rules are less than explicit.

[Anonymous Visitor 163 576]

Whoa, with that same 4000, you could buy a lot of scrolls, which would extend your ability to 'go long' for those 'no time to rest' situations, and still have coin left over for something nice.

I recommend Summon Swarm. My reading is that both swarms damage each other. If neither damage each other, they'll at least keep each other busy for the duration.

Learn Haste. It's ALWAYS useful. Scrolls are for rare circumstances, like swarms.

Also, wind wall is great, also defends vs. gases and archers.

[Rory]

BretI wrote:

I knew about the +50% damage from AoEs, but had overlooked Flaming Sphere as a possible spell. Although it may have been enough in this case, still I would likely be better off with a swarmbane clasp at that point. Most fighters at my level are doing more than an average of 11 damage a round, and it is slightly cheaper than a page of spell knowledge for that spell.

Just in case... I'm pretty sure you knows this though... Flaming Sphere is damage potential each round.

It works very nicely in conjunction with Magic Missile damage in general. Round 1, cast Flaming Sphere. Round 2 and later, you are adding a potential +3d6 damage each round thereafter.

Blocking a lane for charge, discouraging tactical movement of a foe, eliminating flank and/or 5 foot step potentials, writing your name on the floor of the enemy's stronghold, etc. is pretty nice too.

My very favorite use of it was when I grouped with a fighter who had Step Up and Strike. I encouraged the foes to move while the fighter would get an extra attack. Fun times!

[Ascalaphus]

Flaming Sphere is surprisingly good. Almost nobody stays in a square after you roll it in, nor do they tend to walk into it, so it's fairly effective area denial.

Another thing that makes it good is that it takes only a move action to use, but lasts for a while. So if you're trying to conserve your daily spells, you can "do" something every round at relatively low cost. But you can also continue directing it every round even if you do cast other spells, making it nicer than Duration:Concentration spells.

[Maezer]

I really like summon monster, to deal with a variety of encounters especially swarms. Air elementals are generally very good vacuuming up swarms. Trample can crush them relatively well. And if nothing else they are nice stack of hit points that mindless swarms are likely to actually want to chew through.

[BretI]

Alright, perhaps I am underestimating Flaming Sphere. I will admit that I haven't used it in the past. The one problem would be flying swarms, but perhaps that is a problem for later.

I had considered Summon Swarm, but figured it would tend to wreck too many encounters. Knowing how many scenarios are built, the NPCs frequently aren't equipped to deal with swarms. I fear it would take the fun out of a number of encounters. On the other hand, there would be no problem with fighting a flying swarm since that spells allows for flying swarms as well.

Summon Monster is flexible enough that I eventually want it somewhere on the spell list. Just a matter of how soon and what level.

Perhaps I should do the slightly more expensive route of Mnemonic Vestment with a box of scrolls. That way I could bring in some of the specialized spells such as Gust of Wind as well. It could provide me with more flexibility, but only once a day.

Thanks to all for the comments!

[Rory]

BretI wrote:

Alright, perhaps I am underestimating Flaming Sphere. I will admit that I haven't used it in the past. The one problem would be flying swarms, but perhaps that is a problem for later.

Flying Swarms? No problem.

Flaming Sphere: "A burning globe of fire rolls in whichever direction you point and burns those it strikes. It moves 30 feet per round. As part of this movement, it can ascend or jump up to 30 feet to strike a target."

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

ShroudedInLight wrote:

Fireball.

In all seriousness, give me a minute to see if I can dig up anything 2nd level. The main problem I see with your spell list is that all of your spells are defensive, illusions, or conjuration effects. You have no form of damage outside of your 1st level spells, so of course you are having trouble.

Edit:

Spells roughly in order of level:
Burning Hands, Flaming Sphere, Frostfall, Ice slick, Explosive Runes (Written on a piece of meat), Ice Spears, Pellet Blast, Silver Darts, Call the Void, Diamond Spray, Elemental Aura, Lightning Bolt.

I also approve of Rain of Frogs or Swarm of Fangs simply because Swarm v Swarm is hysterical.

Flaming Sphere is not an AOE spell, so no extra damage there.

[_Ozy_]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

ShroudedInLight wrote:

Fireball.

In all seriousness, give me a minute to see if I can dig up anything 2nd level. The main problem I see with your spell list is that all of your spells are defensive, illusions, or conjuration effects. You have no form of damage outside of your 1st level spells, so of course you are having trouble.

Edit:

Spells roughly in order of level:
Burning Hands, Flaming Sphere, Frostfall, Ice slick, Explosive Runes (Written on a piece of meat), Ice Spears, Pellet Blast, Silver Darts, Call the Void, Diamond Spray, Elemental Aura, Lightning Bolt.

I also approve of Rain of Frogs or Swarm of Fangs simply because Swarm v Swarm is hysterical.

Flaming Sphere is not an AOE spell, so no extra damage there.

It doesn't need to be an 'AoE' spell, it just needs to have an effect that affects an area:

Quote:

spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.

Flaming sphere affects everything within a 5' square, that qualifies.

[Saldiven]

Actually, now that I look at it, I'm not sure Flaming Sphere "affect[s] an area."

It creates a 5' diameter sphere. That sphere moves. If it enters a space with a creature, it stops and the creature makes an all-or-nothing save.

It's kind of squirrely compared to other things that specifically designate an area that is affected.

[_Ozy_]

Every creature in that square is affected. How is that not an effect that affects an area (5' square)?

[BretI]

The text for Flaming Sphere talks of one creature.

Looks like there would be table variation here, since the spell repeatedly refers to a single creature. It doesn't make sense, but that is the way that the spell is worded.

[Malkin the Magician]

For gust of wind:

"A Tiny or smaller creature on the ground is knocked down and rolled 1d4 × 10 feet, taking 1d4 points of nonlethal damage per 10 feet."

It is specialized and limited but I thought I would throw it out there.

May I also recommend the ring of spell knowledge for a Gnome Sorcerer. I have 2 on mine. It makes you a much stronger utility caster. If I go into dwarven runes I thought on disable construct. If I see one undead I throw on command undead etc. These with a mnemonic vestment helps a lot.

[_Ozy_]

BretI wrote:

The text for Flaming Sphere talks of one creature.

Looks like there would be table variation here, since the spell repeatedly refers to a single creature. It doesn't make sense, but that is the way that the spell is worded.

So, two creatures are in a square, which one does it it?

Answer, both:

Quote:

If it enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round and deals 3d6 points of fire damage to that creature

If both creatures are in the square, the above rule is applied to both of them. If 1000 swarm insects are in a square, the above rule is applied to all of them. Flaming sphere has no limit on the number of creatures it can affect, only the area which it affects. That's the very definition of an area 'effect'.

[Ascalaphus]

Yeah, you sometimes need to look past the tendency of the game to assume a square holds only one approximately medium-sized creature.

[twells]

Summon an Air Elemental ... whirlwind. Done.

[BretI]

Made it to 7th level.

I took Frost Fall as a second level spell to help against swarms and Haste as my third level spell. I will be trading out Snapdragon Fireworks next level.