I'm no master of rules, but I believe that part about swarms not being able to be affected by spells that target a specific number of creatures is for spells like polymorph, slow, or any other spell that says "targets: 1 or more creatures..."
A ray works like a weapon (except it typically does energy damage) If you can use a weapon, you should be able to use a ray.
Edit: Bad Grammer is bad.
I whirlwind attack the entire swarm at once!
Well, you can only designate the swarm for only one of the attacks, but you certainly can attack it with weapons. Just hope it's not a swarm that's immune to weapon damage.
About what Val'bryn said, you can't be vulnerable and immune to the same kind of damage. If something would grant you immunity to something you are weak to, it doesn't work.
In general, a creature that is both vulnerable and immune to the same thing is immune. I.e. (dmg)(2)(0) = 0
In the specific case of swarms, splash weapons are explicitly called out as being treated as an AoE effect. Specific > General.
*The case of vulnerable and immune on the same creature is explicitly covered in the rules. I just don't have the time to pull up a quote.
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Ray of Frost is not a "target" spell. It requires an attack roll against a "target" just like any attack from a weapon or bomb and whatnot. Where swarms mention being immune to spells that target specific number of creatures is for spells that say "target: 1 or more..."
Ray of frost does not have a target line in its description.
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Well, most people don't seem to think so, but here's the FAQ for anyone that wants to click it to get the definitive:
Swarms, Rays, and Splash weapons: Are rays and the initial attack from a splash weapon (rather than the area of effect splash damage) considered to be "any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures" when used against a swarm?
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If there is more than one creature in an area (Morlocks or Ratfolk swarming, or any creature riding a mount) and I shoot one of them with a spell (say, ray of frost) do I hit both/all of them?
Yes? then the spell should effect a swarm.
No? then the spell should NOT effect a swarm.
IMHO ray of frost would only effect one Morlock/Ratfold/Rider or mount. So it would only effect one individual in a swarm - which doesn't noticeably effect the swarm.
It's not a matter of arguing, it's a matter of discussion. I understand where they are coming from with their judgment. They see the word target and it makes them think it's a spell that t"argets". When the spell says it targets "a target", they read it as 1 target, or a specific number of targets. This is where they are (as I believe) mistaken.
When the spell says you make an attack against a target, it is different than a spell that targets a specific number of creatures.
You can target a large creature with a ray of frost and it affects the entire 10 ft base creature as mch as it affects a 5 ft base creature. In this case both creatures are "targets" simply because you are attacking them.
A swarm isn't any different, it is one creature and many at the same time. You can ray of frost for damage as it targets one "target". But what you can't do is polymorph a swarm as polymorph only let's you target "1 living creature".
Okay, we're playing pathfinder tonight, I have a winter witch who encounters a swarm. I tried to cast Ray of Frost, as it was the only offensive spell I had that wouldn't be useless, but my GM said that it wouldn't do anything, claiming that Ray of Frost was a targeted spell, based off of the description of Disintegrate not working. Was he right, or not?
Anything that is not an AOE effect only kills a single bug, which is meaningless to a swarm. Ray of Frost, or Disintegrate, is essentially the same as shooting an arrow into a swarm, and is just as ineffective for the same reason,.
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If there is more than one creature in an area (Morlocks or Ratfolk swarming, or any creature riding a mount) and I shoot one of them with a spell (say, ray of frost) do I hit both/all of them?
Yes? then the spell should effect a swarm.
No? then the spell should NOT effect a swarm.
IMHO ray of frost would only effect one Morlock/Ratfold/Rider or mount. So it would only effect one individual in a swarm - which doesn't noticeably effect the swarm.
Same scenario, you throw alchemist's fire, who takes direct hit and who takes splash?
ah... (unless there are "special rules" in play) the creature you thru the weapon at (if you hit it) takes the hit damage, the other creatures in the area take the splash damage. The creature hit actually DOESN'T take the splash damage - otherwise it would take both the "hit" damage and the "splash" damage... even if there are parts of the creature in the splash area that weren't hit...
Hope that helps!
Okay, we're playing pathfinder tonight, I have a winter witch who encounters a swarm. I tried to cast Ray of Frost, as it was the only offensive spell I had that wouldn't be useless, but my GM said that it wouldn't do anything, claiming that Ray of Frost was a targeted spell, based off of the description of Disintegrate not working. Was he right, or not?Anything that is not an AOE effect only kills a single bug, which is meaningless to a swarm. Ray of Frost, or Disintegrate, is essentially the same as shooting an arrow into a swarm, and is just as ineffective for the same reason,.
this is why fine and dimunative swarms are immune to weapon damage, an arrow will deal half damage to Tiny or small swarms
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"The creature you thru the weapon at"? Sounds like the splash weapon was targeted at one creature, then. :) Seriously, though. Please hold off on the personal attacks. Not having been swayed by your argument isn't the same as thinking I know it all. I've been corrected on rules before, just as i've corrected others. Not one of us knows every rule.
And for swarm specific rules, "splash weapons"deal 150% damage", not "affect the swarm as an AOE spell."
??
yeah, a splash weapon is targeted at one creature. And (if hit by the attack) that creature does not take splash damage from the splash weapon. Other creatures (not targeted by the attack) in the splash AOE would take splash damage.What argument are you assigning to me? I posted:
...the creature you thru the weapon at (if you hit it) takes the hit damage, the other creatures in the area take the splash damage. The creature hit actually DOESN'T take the splash damage - otherwise it would take both the "hit" damage and the "splash" damage...
I expressed an opinion, not an argument. My opinion is just that. An opinion. Unless I am the table judge, then it would be a ruling at the table. YMMV.
Curious though, do you feel that the creature hit by the splash weapon would take both the "hit" damage and the "splash" damage? Would an Alchemist add his INT to both then?
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Ray of Frost does not affect swarms.
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Okay, for clarification, are you for or against Ray of Frost affecting swarms? I may have misunderstood the point of your post.
I am not "for or against" either. I did not consider this to be an election.
ok, reposting then:
If there is more than one creature in an area (Morlocks or Ratfolk swarming, or any creature riding a mount) and I shoot one of them with a spell (say, ray of frost) do I hit both/all of them?
Yes? then the spell should effect a swarm.
No? then the spell should NOT effect a swarm.
IMHO ray of frost would only effect one Morlock/Ratfold/Rider or mount. So it would only effect one individual in a swarm - which doesn't noticeably effect the swarm.
In your opinion, if I shoot one of them with a ray of frost do I hit both/all of them? Yes? then the spell should effect a swarm.
Still curious though, do you feel that the creature hit by the splash weapon would take both the "hit" damage and the "splash" damage?
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And if we argue about it long enough, it might be decided that splash weapons only deal splash damage to swarms. I don't think anyone wants that.
IMHO: The creature hit by a splash weapon does not take the splash damage. It only takes the "hit" damage.
do you feel that the creature hit by the splash weapon would take both the "hit" damage and the "splash" damage?
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IMHO: The creature hit by a splash weapon does not take the splash damage. It only takes the "hit" damage.
That is how I understand it. This is because the splash damage is dealt to creatures in the adjacent squares, not the targets square. This becomes trickier with creatures that occupy more than one square.
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I think I have made my Save now (took a re-roll or something) and have decided not to bother posting in this tread again. I do not think this conversation is constructive and is just likely to upset me (or someone else) if I continue in it. I would normally just delete my earlier posts and drift away but ... some of them have been replied to so I guess I'll just leave them. Have a nice day!
Okay, so now to quote some stuff!
Swarms:
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
Magic:
Aiming a Spell
You must make choices about whom a spell is to affect or where an effect is to originate, depending on a spell's type. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell's target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate.
Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
If the target of a spell is yourself (the Target line of the spell description includes "You"), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The saving throw and spell resistance lines are omitted from such spells.
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Effect: Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present.
You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile, after it appears it can move regardless of the spell's range.
Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don't have to see the creature you're trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature at which you're aiming.
If a ray spell has a duration, it's the duration of the effect that the ray causes, not the length of time the ray itself persists.
If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.
So, according to how Rays work, you may make a ranged attack at a target. A target in this case would be a creature of the "swarm subtype".
I believe we are all agree that you can attack a swarm, even with a ranged weapon (whether or not the attack will have an effect is a different matter).
Now we check to see for any immunity based off creature type/subtype. Since a ray is not a "targeted" spell, it will work against the swarm (Disintegrate is a special kind of ray that works differently from different rays, more on this later), unless said swarm any any other special immunity to the spell.
We make the attack roll and if it hits the ray will deal its damage, and if it misses no damage.
Now why Disintegrate is called out,
Disintegrate:
A thin, green ray springs from your pointing finger. You must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit. Any creature struck by the ray takes 2d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 40d6). Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. A disintegrated creature's equipment is unaffected.
When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as a 10-foot cube of nonliving matter. Thus, the spell disintegrates only part of any very large object or structure targeted. The ray affects even objects constructed entirely of force, such as forceful hand or a wall of force, but not magical effects such as a globe of invulnerability or an antimagic field.
A creature or object that makes a successful Fortitude save is partially affected, taking only 5d6 points of damage. If this damage reduces the creature or object to 0 or fewer hit points, it is entirely disintegrated.
Only the first creature or object struck can be affected; that is, the ray affects only one target per casting.
Disintegrate specifically calls out that it can only affect one target, and that is the first target struck. It is the only ray to do this that I know of. And it is because Rays do not have to have a specific target in mind when firing, so if you fire into darkness or something of the sort and you hit something else in the way or whatnot, then that would be disintegrated first and the original target would be unharmed. In the case against a swarm, only the very first swarming creature the ray would come into contact with would be disintegrated, and the rest are untouched (useless against thousands).
but all rays are the same. ray of frost only hits one thing.
Okay, so now to quote some stuff!
Can you show me a ray spell that effects more than one creature?
Okay, so now to quote some stuff!Can you show me a ray spell that effects more than one creature?
Easily!
School evocation [fire]; Level sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect one or more rays
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
You blast your enemies with a searing beam of fire. You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of three rays at 11th level). Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage. The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but all rays must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously.
Notice the lack of "Target" in the spell description.
So does Scorching Ray only work on swarms at CL7?
It works no matter what! It's not a "Targeted" spell. It's a ray, a weapon. You can take weapon focus in it.
So does Scorching Ray only work on swarms at CL7?It works no matter what! It's not a "Targeted" spell. It's a ray, a weapon. You can take weapon focus in it.
Yes, but each ray only affects one creature. Overall, the spell affects a specific number of creatures (depending on caster level). The fact that the spell can only affect 1-3 creatures means that swarms are immune to it.
To contrast; How many creatures can fireball affect?
So the single ray can target the swarm and succeed? But Disintegrate cannot?
Because Disintegrate has that one line that no other ray has, "Only the first creature or object struck can be affected; that is, the ray affects only one target per casting."