This "construct" are radical to economical system ! (In golarion)


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Construct : robot. No maintenance (need repair maybe) magical and loyal to serve you.

You can make empire that works on construct but who is the producer ?

Dwarf.

Dwarf wizard are trained to craft so fast and efficient way. Name it. Terratoca could finished in a day. (Assuming you are high level and need sleep. Etc). Dwarf also lives long age.

Human dont. They are potential buyers. Their short lives span, and they want to do anything for them to lives their live fullest. So buy terratoca servant than human ones. (Slaves could revolt. Need sleep. Food. And die by many ways). Robot can do all day without complaining.

I (lvl 1 wizard) personally make 2 guardian gargoyles. And sell 1 of it. To realize they make good army. They can fly (but they horrible at it.).

This lead robolution.

By the way I am veilgn. Also hellatze (my alias) nice to mee you.


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Characters high enough level/Craft skill to make constructs are rare. Especially since "frail guy burning most of his spells on crafting the enemy army" seems like a prime target for assassination.


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First level wizard can't take Craft Construct, hit the DC reliably, or afford to make a gargoyle. I'm not sure why that example was used.

Golems are generally a terrible investment. They cost tens of thousands of gp. You can hire an unskilled laborer for about 33gp/year. You can cover 24/7 for about 100gp/year. So it would take a 10k gp golem a century to pay for itself. Even if it does better work, it's fifty years for two people at a time.

As for making an army, they're still way more expensive than a bunch of soldiers. In fact, they're so valuable that the enemy army should capture and sell them. There's the additional issue that golems are very hard to repair, requiring even more money to pay casters to patch them up with fancy spells or lots of really slow cantrips.


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Veilgn wrote:
I (lvl 1 wizard) personally make 2 guardian gargoyles. And sell 1 of it. To realize they make good army.

Just running the numbers,.... in order to make such a creature, you need the Craft Construct feat, which, in turn, requires that you be fifth level and have two other feats (Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms and Amor).

It also requires 30,000 gp in materials to craft.

As was pointed out, a day's labor for a normal human costs a tenth of a gold piece. I could get an army of 1000 lackeys laboring for me for a year for the price of the golem.

Dark Archive

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Thus why you don't see armies of constructs marching across the field. But you may encounter the occasional construct that's stationed as a guard. It's not fast, efficient, or cost effective to churn out constructs left right and center. In fact, I can't see any ruler willing to trust a construct he or she bought to even be a body guard. Unless the ruler is a spellcaster it's unlikely they can truly control the construct. And there is the concern that the person who sold it may have given the construct orders to be an assassin.


QuidEst wrote:

First level wizard can't take Craft Construct, hit the DC reliably, or afford to make a gargoyle. I'm not sure why that example was used.

Golems are generally a terrible investment. They cost tens of thousands of gp. You can hire an unskilled laborer for about 33gp/year. You can cover 24/7 for about 100gp/year. So it would take a 10k gp golem a century to pay for itself. Even if it does better work, it's fifty years for two people at a time.

As for making an army, they're still way more expensive than a bunch of soldiers. In fact, they're so valuable that the enemy army should capture and sell them. There's the additional issue that golems are very hard to repair, requiring even more money to pay casters to patch them up with fancy spells or lots of really slow cantrips.

1. Golem are expensive example. But there is cheap construct. (Since i am new at crafting). (Homuculus quite cheap)

2. Use construct to craft complicated machine. Who knows that construct could create non magical construct. (Cut trees. Make warship. Sell to coastal country)

3. If printing press exist. Also university and school could teach basic how to make construct. Its the matter how people could learn about making it.

4. Construct designed for long term investment.


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Warforged. You're basically describing Warforged.


Saethori wrote:
Warforged. You're basically describing Warforged.

?


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Veilgn wrote:

1. Golem are expensive example. But there is cheap construct. (Since i am new at crafting). (Homuculus quite cheap)

2. Use construct to craft complicated machine. Who knows that construct could create non magical construct. (Cut trees. Make warship. Sell to coastal country)

3. If printing press exist. Also university and school could teach basic how to make construct. Its the matter how people could learn about making it.

4. Construct designed for long term investment.

1. But, as an example, a homunculus is tiny-sized and has lower-than-average strength even before you account for reduced carrying capacity. It only has one master (its creator), and tends to get pretty violent if that one dies. The cost to make a useful construct is probably around 10k.

2. Anything a construct could do, you could hire people to do. "But the construct does it for free forever!" Right, but there's only one construct. You can hire lots of people instead. They will make ships faster than the one construct, earning you more money to keep hiring people. And since you start out faster, you'll earn money faster than the guy with the construct can earn money for new constructs.

3. Making constructs requires being able to do powerful magic, and the material itself is still really expensive. Pathfinder has set costs for things.

4. Any damage a construct takes costs 60 gp to repair (second level spell times CL 3 times 10 gp), which really cuts into the 200 gp per year earnings if we assume it earns you the wages of six men. (Twice as good as a person, and it works 24 hours per day instead of 8.) If you need even two repairs per year, that's going to be worse than just investing money at 1%. If you can find it work where it never takes any damage, 2% annual return on investment isn't bad. If somebody comes and steals your construct, though, you are out a lot of money.


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A race of sentient golems from Eberron, 3.5 D&D content that has become beloved enough by players to persist through the editions.


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Simulacrums and Undead are both more efficient.

If you wanted to go with mechanical servants/soldiers - Clockworks start at ~4,000 gp and can repair each other.


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Snowlilly wrote:

Simulacrums and Undead are both more efficient.

If you wanted to go with mechanical servants/soldiers - Clockworks start at ~4,000 gp and can repair each other.

Undead get people angry, and Simulacrums are very expensive to repair. (If your GM allows magical healing on them, though, it's a better bargain once you're high enough level.) Those clockwork creatures are a nice deal, though! The free healing solves a lot of issues.


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Veilgn wrote:
Golem are expensive example. But there is cheap construct. (Since i am new at crafting). (Homuculus quite cheap)

Not really. A homunculus costs 1050 gp to craft, which is approximately the cost of thirty years of unskilled labor if you were simply to go hire one of the people at the village hiring fair.

As was pointed out, they're Tiny creatures (the size of a cat) and have low strength even before you factor size modifiers in. They have no useful skills to speak of other than flying and stealth. What are you thinking of having this creature do that Ogg the village roustabout can't do as well or better for a thousandth of the price?

(And, again, it still takes Craft Construct to make one of these, meaning you need to be at least a fifth level spellcaster. Why not simply use animate dead to make yourself forty zombie servitors for less than the price of the the homunculus?)

Dark Archive

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I'd have to research the rules for them, but let's say you make a homunculus or ten and set them to building ships for you to sell. I'm fairly certain the quality of those ships would probably be pretty low. Maybe so low they sink if ever actually put in the water. After all, a crafter can't put a skill into a headband of intelligence if they don't have the skill. So how are they creating a construct which has engineering skills that the wizard or alchemist probably doesn't have?


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Kahel Stormbender wrote:
After all, a crafter can't put a skill into a headband of intelligence if they don't have the skill.

I'm not familiar with that rule. Is it in one of the FAQs? Do you have a reference?

Dark Archive

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Could have sworn I saw that. Might have been a faq or something, not sure. I know it doesn't make any sense for a wizard who knows nothing about religions to be able to imbue Knowledge: Religion into a headband of vast intellect they created. Can't remember where I saw the ruling though.

Or was it a different system? I play too dang many rpgs.


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AFAIK,a mage need not have a craft skill to enchant a magic item, he can use any ready made item of Masterwork quality... and he need not even have all the skills and spells pertaining to the item, if he can retain collaborators who have the necessary skills/spells available... heck, he might even use scrolls or a and to provide the spells, provided he can provide one casting a day.


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Klorox wrote:
AFAIK,a mage need not have a craft skill to enchant a magic item, he can use any ready made item of Masterwork quality... and he need not even have all the skills and spells pertaining to the item, if he can retain collaborators who have the necessary skills/spells available... heck, he might even use scrolls or a and to provide the spells, provided he can provide one casting a day.

He doesn't even need those. With a few exceptions, he can bypass any skill or spell prerequisite simply by adding +5 to the crafting DC.


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Even with maximized Spellcraft, there's a limit to how much you can achieve if you try to bypass too many prereqs

Dark Archive

Even more so if you rush the job. Personally, I wouldn't let someone take 10 on a crafting check unless it's absolutely impossible with your bonus to fail by more then 5. And I would never allow them to take 20 since there is a risk of catastrophic failure, resulting in a cursed item. Even a normal failure still results in an item that wasn't enchanted properly, so may not even function. So since taking 20 assumes you tried and failed until you got a perfect success, the first assumed failure would have been the last attempt.


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Kahel Stormbender wrote:
Even more so if you rush the job. Personally, I wouldn't let someone take 10 on a crafting check unless it's absolutely impossible with your bonus to fail by more then 5.

It's your game, but that's also directly contradictory to the explicitly stated rules of the game.

Dark Archive

Crafters already can quickly become unbalancing by generating gear that breaks wealth by level. Giving the players the ability to auto succeed right from the start just makes it worse. If someone wants to make a magic item, I see no reason they should be exempt from the risks even if they could exactly match the DC with take 10. Other then costs in materials and down time spent, there are no real limiting factors beyond the risk of making cursed items to crafting.

In 2nd edition crafting was difficult and pretty much required the GM to set up adventures to get the rare/hard to find items needed. In 3rd edition D&D crafting was limited by the fact it cost experience points to make stuff, and had the risk of making cursed items instead. In pathfinder the only drawback is the risk of making cursed items.


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Kahel Stormbender wrote:
And I would never allow them to take 20 since there is a risk of catastrophic failure, resulting in a cursed item.

I wouldn't want to ever try a Take-20. Constructs take a long time to make. Multiplying it by 20 would be far worse.

/cevah


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cant take 20 on crafting as a failure will result in losing your matts or making something bad happen you can however take 10 on the checks and doing anything other than taking 10 is a really dumb idea


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Lady-J wrote:
cant take 20 on crafting as a failure will result in losing your matts or making something bad happen ...

Only if a "1" means you missed the DC by more than 4.

/cevah


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Veilgn wrote:
I (lvl 1 wizard) personally make 2 guardian gargoyles. And sell 1 of it. To realize they make good army.

Just running the numbers,.... in order to make such a creature, you need the Craft Construct feat, which, in turn, requires that you be fifth level and have two other feats (Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms and Amor).

It also requires 30,000 gp in materials to craft.

As was pointed out, a day's labor for a normal human costs a tenth of a gold piece. I could get an army of 1000 lackeys laboring for me for a year for the price of the golem.

Actually, a Wizard can "effectively" get Craft Construct at Level 1 now, by taking the Protector of the People feat. Once you craft a golem of CR 5 or greater and donate it to your community for its defense against persecution, you then gain it permanently even if you don't meet the prerequisites for the feat.

The problem then comes down to what the GM allows rules-wise...and making money fast enough.

Choice 1: Focus on Alchemy and use the Unchained crafting rules to churn out Tindertwigs.

Spoiler:

1) We need a Human, and crank INT to 20 for that +5 mod.
2) Worship Norgorber or Urgathoa
3) Take Focused Study to replace the bonus feat trait. Take Skill Focus [Craft (alchemy)].
4) Take Protector of the People feat.
5) Take a Torple familiar with Valet archetype so that it has Cooperative Crafting and give a +2 to Alchemy. [don't ask me how that is supposed to work; it has no hands] :P
6) Take the Patient Calm (Faith) and Alchemical Adept (Magic) traits.
7) Take a Drawback and choose a third trait (Hedge Magician)
8) Get your hands on an Alchemy Lab,
9) Get a Portable Altar, Masterwork (Demon Hunter's Handbook, pp.18-19)
Price: 400 gp; Weight: 40 lb (Norgorber and Urgathoa focus on Alchemy)
10) Take the drug Daemon Seed (Horsemen of the Apocalypse: Book of the Damned) for extra boosting of your craft skill.

Choice 2: Focus on Scrolls

Spoiler:

1) We need a Human, and crank INT to 20 for that +5 mod.
2) Worship Cayden Cailean (leather=parchment); Worship Irori/Nethys (books); or Worship Shelyn (papermaking=art???)
3) Take Focused Study to replace the bonus feat trait. Take Skill Focus [Craft(X)].
4) Take Protector of the People feat.
5) Take a Valet familiar so that it has Cooperative Crafting.
6) Take the Patient Calm (Faith) and Love Lost traits.
7) Take a Drawback and choose a third trait (Hedge Magician)
8) Get Masterwork tools.
9) Get a Portable Altar, Masterwork (Demon Hunter's Handbook, pp.18-19)
Price: 400 gp; Weight: 40 lb
10) Take the drug Daemon Seed (Horsemen of the Apocalypse: Book of the Damned)

If possible, use Race Builder and take the following:

Spoiler:

Slow Speed (-1 RP): 20 ft. base speed, but not affected by Medium or Heavy armor
Delicious (-1 RP): -2 penalty on Escape Artist and combat maneuver checks to escape grapple against creatures with Bite attacks.
Emotionless (-1 RP): You have problems processing emotions properly, and thus take a -4 penalty on Sense Motive checks.
Negative Energy Affinity (-1 RP): You are healed by negative energy.

and then get
Skill Bonus (2 RP): Pick Craft (X). Members of this race gain a +2 racial bonus on skill checks made with this skill.
Static Bonus Feat (2 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Choose one feat with no prerequisites. All members of this race gain this feat as a bonus feat at 1st level. [Take the Prodigy Feat and focus in Craft (X) and another Craft skill.]

Favored in Guild (Dungeon Master's Guide II, p. 227)
Benefit: Select one of your guild's associated skills. As long as you remain a member of that guild, you gain a +2 competence bonus on all checks made with that skill.

Magical Artisan[Craft Scroll] (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, p. 36)

Exceptional Artisan (Eberron Campaign Setting, p. 52)

Extraordinary Artisan (Eberron Campaign Setting, p. 53)

Magic Items: Quill of Scribing (Complete Mage, p.134)

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