Possible way to have Spontaneous Cure Spells?


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The Spell Sage's Spell Study says: "Once per day, a spell sage can spontaneously cast any spell on the bard, cleric, or druid spell list as if it were a wizard spell he knew and had prepared."

And the variant multiclassing Cleric says: "She also gains the cleric's spontaneous casting ability, which she can use with any prepared casting classes that have the appropriate spells on their spell lists."

Does this mean that the Spell Study can be used as a "feint" to give up one your normal prepared spells to cast a cure spell of that level?


I do not get why you need to go through a roundabout way - the feature allows you to cast a spell on the bard, cleric of druid spell list spontaneously, and clerics have these spells on their list anyway. They even give CLW as an example.


No, because it's not on your list until you use the ability. That's my opinion.


You read the descrition perfectly... ONCE/DAY, you have to give up TWO spells to get the equivalent level of Cure... or any other spell that is not on wizard lists for that matter.

Trying to go further is cheating and abuse of the RAW and RAI.

I don't know what you mean with "variant multiclassing Cleric ", but if you multiclass spellsage/cleric, you still can turn your CLERIC spells into cures, and TWO of your wizard spells per day into another cure or anything else.


@The Shaman: Because I wouldn't have to give up two spells, plus extra casting time, when I could give up one spell and no extra casting time to cast cure spells.

@Azten: It doesn't say that.

@Klorox: Technically it's not cheating. And I got the variant multiclassing from Pathfinder Unchained.


Cleric and mage spells are two different sources, you can't turn your mage spells into cleric spells beyond the parameters set in Spell Study.
Well, of course, if you're not playing PFS, you and your DM/you as DM are fully free to house rule, but be conscious that this is not as per the rules other groups follow.

Liberty's Edge

Spell Study does not state that the spell is treated as being on the wizard list. So VMC Cleric ability will not work for that spell.


@Klorox: Can you show me the PFS rules or a FAQ that you can't use these together?


@The Raven Black: It says "as if it were a wizard spell he knew and had prepared."


You tell me first where it say a cleric can channel spells from other classes into his spontaneous casting. Spell study is quite clear : give up two spells, once per day, period. What you seem to want to do is use wizard spells for a cleric's spontaneous casting, which, barring house rules, is not legal.

Of course, Spontaneous Casting says "any prepared spell", but I think applying this to prepared spells from other classes clearly is an abuse of the RAI.


@Klorox: You don't have a proper explanation, because there's hundreds of different RAI's and RAW's that go together with classes that you still have no idea about. Stamping it illegal because you think it is doesn't make it so.

It doesn't just say "give up two spells, once per day, period."
If it had said that, which some descriptions do, I would have left it at that.

There are reasons why the sentence's continue, so it can properly be adjusted with other abilities.

Everything there makes sense, so unless you have some kind of rules URL to show me, your argument is invalid.


Quote:

A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that she did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can “lose” any prepared spell that is not an orison or domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with “cure” in its name).

An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) can't convert prepared spells to cure spells but can convert them to inflict spells (an inflict spell is one with “inflict” in its name).

A cleric who is neither good nor evil and whose deity is neither good nor evil can convert spells to either cure spells or inflict spells (player's choice). Once the player makes this choice, it cannot be reversed. This choice also determines whether the cleric channels positive or negative energy (see Channel Energy).

Quote:
Deity: At 1st level, she must select a deity within one alignment step of her own. She gains the cleric's aura, bonus languages, code of conduct, and restriction from casting spells of opposed alignments. She also gains the cleric's spontaneous casting ability, which she can use with any prepared casting classes that have the appropriate spells on their spell lists.
Quote:
Spell Study (Su): At 2nd level, the sage's understanding of the spells of bards, clerics, and druids is so great that he can use his own magic in an inefficient, roundabout way to duplicate those classes' spells. Once per day, a spell sage can spontaneously cast any spell on the bard, cleric, or druid spell list as if it were a wizard spell he knew and had prepared.

FAQ on this very question

Quote:

New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?

No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class. For example, sorcerers add their bloodline spells to their sorcerer spell list and oracles add their mystery spells to their oracle spell list. The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.

I laid it out for you - this doesn't work as you wish it to (officially).


Ohh, there's a pickle in this one.

It says "Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class"

Spell Sage: "as if it were a wizard spell he knew and had prepared."

"unless they are added by a class feature of that same class."

The same class feature of the wizard spell sage that adds in ANY spell from bard, cleric, and druid.


Actually, that part of spell study is likely because of that FAQ. It's a once a day ability you're trying to cheese more uses out of for cure spells, but Spell Study has that line because otherwise you couldn't use the ability unless the spell was also a wizard spell.


Don't hate the player, hate the game.
I'm just talking by how it reads.


As if a Wizard burning spell slots to cure were cheese.


Nah, it doesn't seem like it works, because you don't have it on your list. You can temporarily cast as if you knew and prepared it, but that whole section is limited to the act of casting.


Lol. If comments were RAW, these forums would implode.

Liberty's Edge

The FAQ applies to Spells Known which is a class feature that the Wizard does not have. It cannot be used for a Wizard

I maintain that nowhere does Spell Study actually states that the spell is added to the Wizard list

BTW you succeeded in a very rare thing on the Rules board : nobody agreeing with your interpretation :-)


It's not, indeed the criterion to use Spell Study is that the spell mimicked must be from some class other than wizard.


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Wise Old Man wrote:
@Klorox: Can you show me the PFS rules or a FAQ that you can't use these together?

The burden of proof in a Paizo rules discussion is always for YOU to show the CAN.

Dark Archive

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I fail to see how spell sage even factors into this. Cleric VMC lets you "lose" a prepared spell of level 1 or higher, that is not a domain spell, to cast a cure spell of that level or lower.
Take note that the cleric Spontaneous Casting class feature doesn't call out losing a cleric spell prepared, just A prepared spell.
So a wizard VMC cleric could drop any prepared spell, probably except school spells, to cast cure spells.


Why should cleric wizards be able to spontaneously cast from wizard spells while cleric bards or cleric sorcs could not?

Here RAW shows a weakness, but RAI is obviously that only cleric spells can be so dropped for spontaneous spells.

Similarly, a cleric druid should not be able to spend cleric spells to cast summon nature allies nor druid spells for cures.


Ugh, it's pretty ridiculous that VMC cleric only gets to use its spontaneous casting feature on Druids and Witches.


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Ectar wrote:

I fail to see how spell sage even factors into this. Cleric VMC lets you "lose" a prepared spell of level 1 or higher, that is not a domain spell, to cast a cure spell of that level or lower.

Take note that the cleric Spontaneous Casting class feature doesn't call out losing a cleric spell prepared, just A prepared spell.
So a wizard VMC cleric could drop any prepared spell, probably except school spells, to cast cure spells.
VMC cleric says wrote:
She also gains the cleric's spontaneous casting ability, which she can use with any prepared casting classes that have the appropriate spells on their spell lists.

Only if the spell is on the spell list of the class. Wizards don't have cure spells.

Dark Archive

Mmmm, I see. I took "appropriate spells" to be any prepared spells of an appropriate level, as opposed to having to have the cure spells on their list plus being a prepared caster.
This seems like a bad trade no matter how you look at it.


Most VMC are.


You could go into the really really really great and totally not awful Thuvian Alchemist.


As The Raven Black stated, the FAQ only applies to casters that have Known Spells, not the Wizard.

VMC Cleric says "she can use with any prepared casting classes that have the appropriate spells on their spell lists."

Wizard is a spell caster that needs to prepare his spells.

Spell Study: "...as if it were a wizard spell he knew and had prepared."


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It doesn't work the way that you want it to.

A class feature granting you the ability to do something "as if it were a spell you knew and prepared" once per day is not the same as having the spell on your spell list.

Seriously, why is it that people start a thread asking if something works a certain way, and then when it's explained that it doesn't, the OP starts arguing? Why is this a thing? Because it's definitely a thing.


Now that said, if you went into Magaambyan Arcanist and picked cure spells for your druid spells, NOW we're talking.


I'm sorry you feel that way, Gulthor. I'm not trying to argue, it's just that the logic doesn't add up, and telling me it doesn't work "because it doesn't work" as an alternative answer when the logic says otherwise, is not a relevant answer.

I got a better secondary question, why don't people refer OP's by their name?


Gulthor wrote:
Now that said, if you went into Magaambyan Arcanist and picked cure spells for your druid spells, NOW we're talking.

The only spells it mentions getting that way are spells from the Good Domain, which doesn't have a single cure spell to it's name.


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Then if I may help clarify it in a way that might offer more illumination...?

The VMC ability allows you to spontaneously cast any cure spells on your class spell list by giving up a prepared spell, just like a cleric can. On this, there is no disagreement.

Spell Study allows you to cast a bard, cleric, or druid spell once a day, as if it was a wizard spell he knew and prepared. On this, there is no disagreement.

The question you pose is whether they work together. And, unfortunately, they do not. And this is why.

Spell Study allows you to cast these spells as if they were wizard spells you knew and prepared. They might also happen to be a wizard spell that you prepared. They might happen to be one you know, but didn't prepare today. Or they might be something that's not a wizard spell at all.

But for casting them through Spell Study, it doesn't matter whether they're wizard spells originally. You are casting them as if they were regardless.

Now, back to the VMC ability. It says you can use it with any prepared caster that has the requisite spells on their spell list. Wizards do not have Cure spells on their spell list, so this ability doesn't work for them. If something added the spells to their spell list, such as being a Samsaran and taking the alternate racial trait, then a wizard could.

Spell Study, however, doesn't add anything to the spell list. It casts the spell in a way that doesn't matter if it's on the wizard spell list or not.

So, in the end, the two abilities are non interactive.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Gulthor wrote:
Now that said, if you went into Magaambyan Arcanist and picked cure spells for your druid spells, NOW we're talking.
The only spells it mentions getting that way are spells from the Good Domain, which doesn't have a single cure spell to it's name.
'Collegiate' Arcanist wrote:
At each class level, a Collegiate arcanist chooses a spell from the druid spell list and treats it as if it were on the spell list of one of her arcane spellcasting classes. A Collegiate arcanist must choose a druid spell at least two levels lower than the highest-level spell she can currently cast. The spell's type becomes arcane and its save DC functions as normal for the arcane spellcasting class list she adds it to. The Collegiate arcanist automatically learns this spell and adds it to her spellbook (or familiar if she is a witch).

I see no [good] or Good Domain requirement in this ability. This should work fine.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Gulthor wrote:
Now that said, if you went into Magaambyan Arcanist and picked cure spells for your druid spells, NOW we're talking.
The only spells it mentions getting that way are spells from the Good Domain, which doesn't have a single cure spell to it's name.

You missed Halcyon Magic at level 1 :)

Halcyon Magic wrote:

Halcyon Magic (Su)

At each class level, a Collegiate Arcanist chooses a spell from the druid spell list and treats it as if it were on the spell list of one of her arcane spellcasting classes. A Collegiate arcanist must choose a druid spell at least two levels lower than the highest-level spell she can currently cast. The spell's type becomes arcane and its save DC functions as normal for the arcane spellcasting class list she adds it to. The Collegiate Arcanist automatically learns this spell and adds it to her spellbook (or familiar if she is a witch).


I was looking at the Holy Arcana feature. Mind however the feature you mention means that you'd be casting cure light wounds as a third level spell.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
I was looking at the Holy Arcana feature. Mind however the feature you mention means that you'd be casting cure light wounds as a third level spell.

Not really? It just says you can only pick spells two spell levels below your current maximum. If it increased the gained spell's spell level, it would say (and many such effects do, so this omitting the text doesn't look like an exception, just something to keep you from getting high level druid spells).


@Saethori: It clearly states that Spell Study has any spell on their list. Using "if" to exemplify a justification that it doesn't have them on the spell list is arbitrary.

Just as it clearly states in the Samsarans alternate racial trait, Mystic Past Life : "The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you're adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell."


Spell Study says nothing about adding anything to any lists. You get to treat one [Bard/Cleric/Druid] spell per day as known and prepared for the purpose of one casting, nothing else.

By the "that means it's on your class list" reasoning, you might just as well argue that you get to add these spells to your spellbook. After all, since "as if" doesn't count as a limitation, "as if known and prepared" means is actually in the spellbook at that point.

Yeah, no.


The difference is "as if" means more of a yes, than a no.


Guys, he's set in his way on this. Leave him to allow it if he runs a game, or complain if a GM agrees with us.


My PFS GM looked at this thread and allowed it.


Wise Old Man wrote:
The difference is "as if" means more of a yes, than a no.

It's a "yes" for the things it specifies, and a "no" for everything else. It's a "yes" for one casting a day, and a "no" the rest of the time.

Azten wrote:
Guys, he's set in his way on this. Leave him to allow it if he runs a game, or complain if a GM agrees with us.

But I'm not bored yet!


Wise Old Man wrote:
My PFS GM looked at this thread and allowed it.

No way to confirm, and he's wrong anyway. Table Variance until this takes up an important FAQ spot.


@Azten: Well, you're not a PFS GM, so he's more right than you.


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Variant Multiclassing isn't legal in PFS, so no, he's not. :p

Time to follow my own advice and leave Wise Old Man be.


Damn. Thanks for clarifying that, I'll tell my GM immediately.

Just because that's my name doesn't mean I know everything.


If you're wanting Cure spells why not White Mage Arcanist?


I thought of a great example to further clarify this. Brawlers have a class feature that allows them to temporarily gain feats a few times per day.

That doesn't mean that they *actually* have the feats for the purposes of meeting prerequisites for their regular feats.

You can't go: "Oh, I'm leveling up? Then I gain Combat Expertise from my class feature so I can qualify for x feat."

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