Trimming some fat out of the Skill list


Homebrew and House Rules


So no one is happy with skills. There are an absolute ton of them and most classes get nowhere near enough skill points per level to flesh out a well-rounded character.

So, while most people suggest upping the number of Skill Points earned by most classes each level, I figured why not tackle some of the bloat in the list itself too.
For consideration:

•Acrobatics (absorbs Fly)
•Appraise
•Athletics (Jump, Climb, Swim all move to this new, sensical skill)
•Craft (Profession "goes here" - really it's just a useless skill, except for below)
•Diplomacy
•Handle Animal
•Heal
•Intimidate
•Knowledge: Arcana
•Knowledge: Dungeoneering
•Knowledge: Engineering
•Knowledge: History
•Knowledge: Local (absorbs Know: Nobility)
•Knowledge: Nature (absorbs part of Know: Geography)
•Knowledge: Planes
•Knowledge: Profession (the one use Profession had as a skill was as a way to fill a Knowledge that didn't exist, so why not just make it into it's own Knowledge skill, purchased seperately for each "profession" one needs to know how to do, such as Sailor for instance?)
•Knowledge: Religion
•Linguistics
•Perception
•Perform
•Ride
•Sense Motive
•Spellcraft (absorts UMD - no reason to have both)
•Subterfuge (becomes the "catch all" stealth and underhanded skill, absorbing Stealth, Slight of Hand, Disguise, Disable Device, and Bluff)
•Survival

Yes, at first glance it seems like Subterfuge may be "overloaded," but honestly the same could be said of Perception and no one really minds that one. ;)

Thoughts/criticisms appreciated :)


Question, for the skills that have the same stat modifier, the combined version uses the same, but what about those that had diff stat modifiers?

Prof was wisdom, but Craft and Knowledge was intelligence, for instance.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Neo2151 wrote:

So no one is happy with skills. There are an absolute ton of them and most classes get nowhere near enough skill points per level to flesh out a well-rounded character.

So, while most people suggest upping the number of Skill Points earned by most classes each level, I figured why not tackle some of the bloat in the list itself too.

First of all, false statement. I've also found that ~5 skill ranks are well enough to round out a character (which means that upping the number of skill ranks does solve the problem already).

Have you seen the background skills, consolidated skills or the grouped skills alternate rules? They're much better.

My problem with this is that you combine Int and Wis skills with completely different purposes (craft and profession). All of a sudden, peasants and farmers needs a high Int. This also does not, I repeat, DOES NOT make you come closer to your goal. Craft and Profession are not rivaling with each other for skill ranks. You pick either or, very often not both. The background skills alternate rules fixes this much better.

But my biggest problem (and what makes me hate this) is they you create a "rogue-skill" (subterfuge). My problem isn't only that it's "overloaded". It's that it makes no sense what so ever. How is the ability to lie and pick locks in anyway related? And what ability score do you add? How does being dexterous help one lie or how does being charismatic help one pick a lock?
Perception isn't "overloaded" in the same sense as your rogue-skill, because perception is about one thing and one thing only: Perception checks. Your rogue-skill does multiple different things. If I want my character to be good at bluff, my character is also stealthy, good at picking locks and pick-pocketing. - I actually don't want this.

And lastly, this does not address the problem that you stated. This does not allow me to create "well-rounded" characters.

It's outright extremely poor design.

Now, what you can do better is to examine what you call "bloat" and see what parts are bloat or not. The rogue-skill contains three skills that are strong enough to stand on their own, side by side with the rest of the skills, not bloat.


RandomReverie wrote:

Question, for the skills that have the same stat modifier, the combined version uses the same, but what about those that had diff stat modifiers?

Prof was wisdom, but Craft and Knowledge was intelligence, for instance.

Well, going down the list...

Jumping makes more sense as Str and always has, so combined with climb and swim, Acrobatics would be a Str skill.

Craft is one of those weird skills where you can make equally good arguments for various attributes - dex for detail work, str for heavy work, etc. Int is kind of a rough fit but it works as a "good enough for everything" since there is always the argument of "you gotta *know* what you're doing."
Profession as a Knowledge can even more easily follow the same logic, so it would be Int based, as all the Knows are, instead of continuing to be Wis based (which never made much sense really).

Same thing applies to UMD's function switching to the Int-based Spellcraft. Figuring out how to activate magic items seems like it should require at least as much, if not way more, logic and critical thinking than "force of personality" (or, even worse, "appearance").

There is a good argument to be made, however, that Disguise/Bluff could be their own separate Cha-based skill to break it away from all the Dex-based "stealth" skills, and I'd support that. I'd keep them paired though - maybe something like:
Subterfuge = Disguise + Bluff
Subtlety = Stealth + Slight of Hand + Disable Device

tl;dr - They'd simply use the new Attribute with a caveat that the Dex/Cha "Stealth" skills could be broken into two different skills.


Rub-Eta wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:

So no one is happy with skills. There are an absolute ton of them and most classes get nowhere near enough skill points per level to flesh out a well-rounded character.

So, while most people suggest upping the number of Skill Points earned by most classes each level, I figured why not tackle some of the bloat in the list itself too.

First of all, false statement. I've also found that ~5 skill ranks are well enough to round out a character (which means that upping the number of skill ranks does solve the problem already).

Have you seen the background skills, consolidated skills or the grouped skills alternate rules? They're much better.

My problem with this is that you combine Int and Wis skills with completely different purposes (craft and profession). All of a sudden, peasants and farmers needs a high Int. This also does not, I repeat, DOES NOT make you come closer to your goal. Craft and Profession are not rivaling with each other for skill ranks. You pick either or, very often not both. The background skills alternate rules fixes this much better.

But my biggest problem (and what makes me hate this) is they you create a "rogue-skill" (subterfuge). My problem isn't only that it's "overloaded". It's that it makes no sense what so ever. How is the ability to lie and pick locks in anyway related? And what ability score do you add? How does being dexterous help one lie or how does being charismatic help one pick a lock?
Perception isn't "overloaded" in the same sense as your rogue-skill, because perception is about one thing and one thing only: Perception checks. Your rogue-skill does multiple different things. If I want my character to be good at bluff, my character is also stealthy, good at picking locks and pick-pocketing. - I actually don't want this.

And lastly, this does not address the problem that you stated. This does not allow me to create "well-rounded" characters.

It's outright extremely poor design.

Now, what you can do better is to examine what you...

Touché.

To touch on your points - The idea of this would be to replace the need for the alternate "background/consolidated/etc" rules.
Obviously if you prefer using those alternate rules, you should! I'd simply argue that the fact that those systems need to exist supports my point that the base skill system sucks. :)

The "all of a sudden Peasants/Farmers need a high Int" argument... well, no, they don't. They only need enough to get the job done - they're not heroically farming, they're just surviving.
Additionally, there's nothing to suggest that having specific professional knowledge (int) such as how to be a farmer makes less sense than being a farmer requires copious amounts of common sense and worldliness (wis).
I think Int makes more sense, as I said previously. If you disagree, that's fine. :)

As for Dex/Cha Rogue skills, I agree. Covered that in the last post though. ;)
My point about Perception was simply to compare it to the way it was done in 3.5 - Search/Spot/Listen. No one complains that they don't have to spend all those extra points anymore, but the alternative is that if I have a deaf character with a high Perception, I can "notice" things just fine (which hardly makes sense, right?).
Maybe the GM decides to throw conditional penalties to make that choice of deafness make sense, but best case scenario, I've just added a bunch of "on the fly" work for the GM to have to deal with, and worst case scenario, same thing but they now resent me for making them do it.
So the same "consolidation" argument makes sense. But again, I agree the Cha "Rogue" skills would make sense as their own thing.
:D

Thx for the feedback!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Personally, I'd keep the skill list pretty much as it is, but divide it into some categories (mere examples, which could be changed to anything): athletic skills (Acrobatics, Climb, Swim, etc.), lore skills (Knowledges, maybe Spellcraft, etc.), professional skills (Craft, Profession), social skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, etc.), utility skills (Heal, Survival, etc.), and so on.
Theny, each class and creature type would gain a number of skill points for each category.
Fighter would gain a good amount of athletics points, a decent amount of utility points, and low lore, social, and anything else.
Wizard would gain high lore points and low anything else.
Things like these.
So you can dedicate to spending your points on each category without worrying too much that your character needs a social skill to back up his background but has low points and you can't forego other skills.
Without giving too many points to spend boundlessly at the same time.


I really like the direction where the rules for background skills are going. There should be more fluff skills, I presume the characters don't spend their whole time perfecting their perception and other skills relevant for adventuring, but will, for example, sing, play board games or drink to pass the time, and why not have a skill for those activities? So I would really like to see more skills rather than less, but divided into two groups as the backgronud skills rules suggest


Neo2151 wrote:
RandomReverie wrote:

Question, for the skills that have the same stat modifier, the combined version uses the same, but what about those that had diff stat modifiers?

Prof was wisdom, but Craft and Knowledge was intelligence, for instance.

Well, going down the list...

Jumping makes more sense as Str and always has, so combined with climb and swim, Acrobatics would be a Str skill.

Craft is one of those weird skills where you can make equally good arguments for various attributes - dex for detail work, str for heavy work, etc. Int is kind of a rough fit but it works as a "good enough for everything" since there is always the argument of "you gotta *know* what you're doing."
Profession as a Knowledge can even more easily follow the same logic, so it would be Int based, as all the Knows are, instead of continuing to be Wis based (which never made much sense really).

Same thing applies to UMD's function switching to the Int-based Spellcraft. Figuring out how to activate magic items seems like it should require at least as much, if not way more, logic and critical thinking than "force of personality" (or, even worse, "appearance").

There is a good argument to be made, however, that Disguise/Bluff could be their own separate Cha-based skill to break it away from all the Dex-based "stealth" skills, and I'd support that. I'd keep them paired though - maybe something like:
Subterfuge = Disguise + Bluff
Subtlety = Stealth + Slight of Hand + Disable Device

tl;dr - They'd simply use the new Attribute with a caveat that the Dex/Cha "Stealth" skills could be broken into two different skills.

Yes. That "Subterfuge" was like the 4E "thieving" skill or whatever it was called...*shudder*

I like about half of your changes, but I feel you didn't go far enough, and was preparing to say so...then I got to Subterfuge. Wow. About face.

So, I would combine Bluff and Disguise into 'Deception'. Sleight of Hand could go into Stealth, no need for a name change.

{Ideally though, I would love to see such specialized abilities as Sleight of Hand sitting "on top" of skills. Like a special qualification that allows you to use your Stealth skill to hide objects and pick pockets. Feats are too big, valuable, and clumsy for this, but it would be cool. Things like Surgery for the Heal skill, Swimming for Athletics, Sense Motive for Perception, or deeper specialties of Smithing, for instance.}

Regarding the UMD skill. Remember that Charisma is a measure of your sense of self, and ability to assert your will over reality at the extreme. Also, the UMD skill includes "faking" class, race, and alignment. You aren't "figuring out how to activate it" so much as MAKING it activate.


Astral Wanderer wrote:

Personally, I'd keep the skill list pretty much as it is, but divide it into some categories (mere examples, which could be changed to anything): athletic skills (Acrobatics, Climb, Swim, etc.), lore skills (Knowledges, maybe Spellcraft, etc.), professional skills (Craft, Profession), social skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, etc.), utility skills (Heal, Survival, etc.), and so on.

Theny, each class and creature type would gain a number of skill points for each category.
Fighter would gain a good amount of athletics points, a decent amount of utility points, and low lore, social, and anything else.
Wizard would gain high lore points and low anything else.
Things like these.
So you can dedicate to spending your points on each category without worrying too much that your character needs a social skill to back up his background but has low points and you can't forego other skills.
Without giving too many points to spend boundlessly at the same time.

I like this idea, but working out the numbers with points to spend in each category would be cumbersome to say the least. Don't have a solution though.


Consolidate Bluff, Intimidate, and Diplomacy into one skill. Consolidate Handle Animal and Ride. You could also probably roll Craft, Profession, and Perform all together for what it's worth.

Axe Appraise, roll it either into Craft or Profession.

You can cut Knowledge down to three skills following Dark Heresy (Common, Forbidden, Scholastic).

The Exchange

Drop perception and use the apropriate knowledge skill instead.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

OK that's it! No skills for anyone! (kidding)


Can'tFindthePath wrote:
I like this idea, but working out the numbers with points to spend in each category would be cumbersome to say the least. Don't have a solution though.

Well, whose task would it be? I think it wouldn't be much harder than what game designers do when they create a class and decide its base skill points. Once you have the categories defined, you're just left with "how good is this class at these skills, archetypally speaking?"

Also, maybe add one unbound skill point per class (or give the ability to make one unbound from the category with more points), so you can (for example) make your Fighter more social than the average Fighter, and so on.


Have you checked out the systems in Pathfinder Unchained?

I've found, rather than forcing my players to invest into all the skills, allowing either x or y skill to beat the check makes the same difference as a consolidated list. Then I don't need new character sheets.

Verdant Wheel

I address skills in a few ways:

1) Background Skills - characters get automatic ranks in one Knowledge skill and one Job skill
2) Characters roll character level with passive/defensive Perception and Sense Motive checks
3) New skills: Athletics and Endurance which replace (and expand) Climb and Swim
4) Craft, Perform, and Profession can act as other skills against modest DCs (below 20)
5) Adjust classes: Fighters and Sorcerers get +2 skills, Clerics and Paladin get automatics ranks in Religion

I also allow for Cooperative Checks with various rules, including how many can Aid the check, with which skills Aid is possible, what the Aid DC is, penalties for failing an Aid check (usually -2), and which skill check serves as the "base" check - this can be open (highest check) or dependent on the context (the most "relevant" skill, etc.).


I'd just like to quickly point out that because a skill is on a class list doesn't mean you HAVE to devote points to it. Not all characters will be skilled in the same things, even 2 of the exact same class. And when a GM calls for a particular knowledge check (for example), not everyone should grab a d20 to roll. In the real world, some people just aren't familiar with certain subjects.


Astral Wanderer wrote:
Can'tFindthePath wrote:
I like this idea, but working out the numbers with points to spend in each category would be cumbersome to say the least. Don't have a solution though.

Well, whose task would it be? I think it wouldn't be much harder than what game designers do when they create a class and decide its base skill points. Once you have the categories defined, you're just left with "how good is this class at these skills, archetypally speaking?"

Also, maybe add one unbound skill point per class (or give the ability to make one unbound from the category with more points), so you can (for example) make your Fighter more social than the average Fighter, and so on.

Yes, quite. But, what I meant was that the number of skill points you would split among the categories is rather small, and therefore, unwieldy. You would naturally need larger numbers of points to be able to meaningfully distribute them. Thus requiring a more extensive redesign of how skill ranks are "purchased".

One way would be to give up the elegant simplicity of the linear "one for one" skill rank buy. Switch to a graduating scale; rank 1 for 1 point, rank 2 for 3 points, or something similar. This would allow a larger pool of points to be divided among the skill categories, per level. Just a thought.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I go the other direction: split back up some of the skills and up the skill points a bit. More not less.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I actually think stealth should go back to move silently and hide.

I also think perception should go back to listen and spot(this can also include search).

Part of the problem with the stealth rules is that they dont differentiate between which modiers are sound based and which ones are skilled based.

Example: An invisible person in the same room is harder to detect than a non-invisible person behind a wall in another room even though I can see neither one. For all that it matters both of them are invisible.


wraithstrike wrote:

I actually think stealth should go back to move silently and hide.

I also think perception should go back to listen and spot(this can also include search).

Part of the problem with the stealth rules is that they dont differentiate between which modiers are sound based and which ones are skilled based.

Example: An invisible person in the same room is harder to detect than a non-invisible person behind a wall in another room even though I can see neither one. For all that it matters both of them are invisible.

I think the problem lies mostly in the description section of the combined skills. Just like Acrobatics is used for completely different things like balancing, jumping, and tumbling; the Perception skill should talk about spotting, listening, and searching. Likewise, the description for Stealth should be talking about hiding, and sneaking, and have mods and tables to back up each use.

I think the shrinking of the list was still a good idea, and could go a little further. It still makes sense to me that someone good at Stealth is good at hiding and moving silently.


I have an issue with Jump being folded into Acrobatics. Although aiming is part of the process, the mechanical work is all Strength. If you're going to abridge skills; Acrobatics = Tumble, Balance, Athletics = Climb, Jump, Swim just makes more sense mechanically. The problem with abridging skills is logically you can wrap so many skills in to so few headings you have barely any skills available.

A skill "Influence" could be logically introduced to include Diplomacy (even including Gather Info as it does now), Intimidate and Bluff. That's a net reduction of 2 skills right there.

"Thievery" (thanks you 4th ed.) could be Pick Pocket (Sleight of Hand) And the Stealth skills which are all Dex based. A net reduction of 1 or 2 skills depending on if you're playing D&D or PF.

Or nebulous terms such as "Deception", "Guile", "Agility", "Brawn", "Focus", "Knowledge", "Awareness" etc.

This can go on and on and on until it's just Ability score checks with an added bonus determined by the GM based on what you're looking to accomplish.

One of the MAJOR things skills does is help create flavor and depth. The skills in L5R have a very Asian feel based on their names but also on the variety of skills you can take. Maybe games like GURPS have gotten into skill overkill but 24 skills is NOT a big deal. The big deal is how points are allocated at the beginning of character creation and at each tier of development thereafter; what a beginning character can or can't be skilled in, and how to relfect learning new skills as the game progresses.

Scarab Sages

3 people marked this as a favorite.

I think the skill list has been condensed too much already - bring back Gather Information, Innuendo, Spot, Search, Speak Language, and Use Rope, I say!

Seriously, just because I learn new languages doesn't make me an expert at cryptography.


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:

I think the skill list has been condensed too much already - bring back Gather Information, Innuendo, Spot, Search, Speak Language, and Use Rope, I say!

Seriously, just because I learn new languages doesn't make me an expert at cryptography.

Haha! I agree, I abhor gaining languages with my cryptography, and vise versa.

Heck, let's jump in the way back machine and reintroduce Alchemy, Animal Empathy, and Intuit Direction!...

But seriously folks, I agree that more skills is ok, but it doesn't work very well with the point per rank, linear improvement. If you are going to be good at something, or you NEED to be good at something, you are committed to pumping ranks into the same skills level after level. And you suck at most other things.

I think we do need to look at "how points are allocated at the beginning of character creation and at each tier of development thereafter; what a beginning character can or can't be skilled in, and how to reflect learning new skills as the game progresses", as JosMartigan said.

It seems to me one way to do that is to introduce a scaling cost for skills, with lower ranks being achieved. Feat and class specialization can be used to build the real masters of a skill set.

I wouldn't say one point for rank 1 and trained status; but perhaps a small buy-in like two or three points for trained status, with a flat training bonus of +3 or +4. Then further ranks would have a scaling cost.

Scarab Sages

I once heard it suggested that Hide (unlike Move Silently) should be an Intelligence-based skill (kind of the inverse of finding Waldo, which would be the Search skill) - that said, I'm content with a unified Stealth skill. The Perception skil, on the other hand, I wouldn't mind seeing bifurcated again into a Wisdom-based "Perception" that's about sensory receptivity and lower-brain functions, and an Intelligence-based "Search" skill that depends on the higher brain and sensory processing.

Then there's the tricky issue of learning languages - 1 per skill point is too little, but any more is too much, and I just said how I feel about Linguistics. How about a Speak Language skill that grants 1.5 languages (1 for one rank, 3 for 2 ranks, 4 for 3, 6 for 4, etc)? It would also bear decent verisimilitude to how learning languages actually works (it's hard if you're not multilingual to start with, but gets dramatically easier the more you know).


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:

I think the skill list has been condensed too much already - bring back Gather Information, Innuendo, Spot, Search, Speak Language, and Use Rope, I say!

Seriously, just because I learn new languages doesn't make me an expert at cryptography.

or at forgery... but the trouble is that they did not give more skill points, so they condensed the skill list to give you more bang for your buck... I love having to pay only one pt for perception or stealth rather than 2 or 3, and even if some of those condensations seem a bit incongruous (like diplo+gather info or linguistics+deciphering+forgery), that's a satisfactory compromise for me.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

As far as languages are concerned, I think a slightly more complicated system (represented by a chart) would do that justice.
In the real world, if you know Latin, you have a strong understanding of Italian right off the bat (although pronunciation might be glitchy), further away on that tree is Spanish and then French and then Portuguese. many of the conjugations in Spanish can be figured out by an Italian speaker and vice versa. So Latin would be a root (1 point) -> Italian would only cost 1 point to know -> Spanish might cost 1 more, but Portuguese might be a 2 point cost because of how far away it is linguistically.
In some fantasy settings (FR), an equivalent might be Dwarven (root) -> Goblin or Orc (corrupted versions of that language), -> Giant (a related but distant language).

Or learning Drow might be a lot easier if someone knows Elvish, etc.


I know "complex" is the last thing any D20 gamer wants to hear, but I like to inject a little bit of "based off of real ideas" into how I approach world-building and character creation wherever possible without creating too much havoc.

Sovereign Court

I kind of rue a lack of a knowlege/etiquette skill in pathfinder. Yeah yesh knowlege/nobility covers it, but really that's not a culturally inclusive way of looking at it. And I mean in an in-universe way. High society among different human cultures takes forms other than nobility, and that's before branching out into non-human social organization...

That being said I could get behind merging diplomacy and intimidation... they're the same skill really just with different amounts of hostility ;)

I also wish perception hadn't been merged. Now we get players thinking they can search every detail of a room with a single move action...


and I was thinking that Know: Nobility was more of a knowledge of heraldry and a who's who of great families and that etiquette was covered in Diplomacy...


To me paring down the skill list this way, especially with the choice of words (subterfuge) makes it sound like a WOD skill list. First I dont like that as I have always thought that list was way to small. Secondly some of those skills are very specific. Lets take swimming for example. This is not something you just know because you are athletic, it is a learned skill. I dont mean just floating around in the water doggie paddling either. To swim is to know and understand the kind of water you are in, how to swim with or against the momentum and how to tread water for long periods of time.
To be honest I can see combining Use Magic Devise with spellcraft however an argument can be made exactly the same as swimming. It is a very specific skill and one must learn the little nuances of doing so. The perception skill consolidation made good sense to me because it always have various situational modifiers and even equipment gives a bonus for specific situations. Like a copper cone will not help you see something better and a magnifying glass will not let you hear something better. Craft, knowledge and profession skill should be left along or even expanded upon. It is a skill for a reason. Now given this is an abstract collection of mathematical formula to give a game world mechanics to function its not a perfect mirror of reality. So with the good comes the bad. Now for me the good far outweighs the bad. for example HP is not a very good representation oh how an individual takes damage on the battlefield (I have been in real combat and this is in no way realistic) So we have to accept the abstract from time to time when the illusion is broken by the rules. Remember all of this is in our minds. So if its not truly broken then dont fix it. Keep It Stupid Simple. So we dont have to many SNAFUs

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
JosMartigan wrote:
I know "complex" is the last thing any D20 gamer wants to hear....

Bullshit. I say complex rocks. Keeps your brain alive. :)


I have my own list floating around somehwere, will repost for convenience:

Spoiler:
[DEX] Acrobatics [Fly, Tumble, Balance]
[WIS] Alertness [Sense Motive, Perception, Survival*]
[STR] Athletics [Swim, Climb, Jump]
[INT] Artistry [Craft, Artistry]
[CHA] Deception [Disguise, Bluff]
[DEX] Finesse [Sleight of Hand, Use Rope, Escape Artist, Disable Device]
[INT] Knowledge (Arcana) [Arcana]
[INT] Knowledge (Medicine) [craft: Alchemy, Heal, Survival*]
[INT] Knowledge (Anthropology) [Local, Nobility, History, Dungeoneering]
[INT] Knowledge (Nature) [Nature, Geography, Dungeoneering]
[INT] Knowledge (Mechanics) [Engineering, Disable Device, Dungeoneering, Ride]
[INT] Knowledge (Theology) [Planes, Religion]
Linguistics [Learn Language, Decipher Script, Forgery]
[INT] Lore (Background Knowledges)
[CHA] Perform
[WIS] Profession
[CHA] Persuasion [Diplomacy, Intimidate]
[INT] Spellcraft [Spellcraft, Use Magic Device]
[DEX] Stealth [Stealth]
[CHA] Tame [Handle Animal, Ride]

Initially, I had all the Knowledge titles removed from the skill names, and treated each skill as its own thing.

I did background skills kinda funny with this system, if I were to actually use it I'd probably get rid of them and let players take any Lore/Knowledge (probably could get rid of those).

Grand Lodge

Neo2151 wrote:
So no one is happy with skills. There are an absolute ton of them and most classes get nowhere near enough skill points per level to flesh out a well-rounded character.

My thoughts on the subject, mostly in agreement.

Dark Archive

The real name of this thread is more like Removing Organs from the Skill List.

Grand Lodge

NenkotaMoon wrote:
The real name of this thread is more like Removing Organs from the Skill List.

Maybe more like removing appendixes, wisdom teeth, and warts. To paraphrase from my post (with updates from the good ideas in this thread):

Reduction, Reuse, and Redundancies
* Knowledge (Arcana), Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device become Spellcraft
* Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Geography), and Survival become Nature
* Appraise gets rolled into individual, applicable Craft and Profession specialties - you roll Craft (Sculpture) to appraise a sculpture, etc
* Knowledge (Nobility) and Knowledge (Local) become [u]Streetwise[/u]
* Climb and Swim become Athletics
* Most of the thief-y skills combine into Thievery
* Acrobatics absorbs Escape Artist and Fly
* Handle Animal absorbs Ride

And, to be quite honest, this also happens:

* Perception gets completely removed as a skill and is instead redesigned to work more like Initiative - everyone has it, it's based on an attribute, but it can be boosted with racial modifications, traits, feats, etc. If a skill is so important that it's mandatory for every single viable character build to spend points on it, it should be an intrinsic part of every character, not a "fake" optional skill.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Homebrew and House Rules / Trimming some fat out of the Skill list All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Homebrew and House Rules