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I remember just the opposite being said regarding inconsistent wording and undefined terminology in the CRB by someone who was at the time a Paizo employee. If the change in philosophy is across the company not just in your project it's a good thing, but the older rulebooks don't live up to it.You're incorrect in your assumption about what we want--we certainly want flavor text to be... flavorful, but rules text's #1 priority is precision. There's an effort to make sure rules language is consistent, but we also put out enough material that things sometimes slip. We have a style guide dictating whether it's bonuses "on" or "to" things, etc. but whenever we do new things, it can take a bit to codify the language.From everything I've seen though, Paizo doesn't want to "write technically" because then it would be like a text book (have you ever seen the Magic the Gathering compiled rules? (or whatever it's called, I haven't played that in too long)). I would love if there was a stronger consistency in the use keywords and a defined structure on how "rules sentences" are written for exactly the reasons you state, but I haven't seen that coming from Paizo..Which is pretty much word for word from the Eidolon description. Again, in my humble opinion, this shows the kind of cut-and-paste writing that was used to build the phantom part of the Spiritualist class.That's how technical writing works. Something looking like it was cut and pasted from somewhere else = language that is precise and consistent. When people are picking apart every clause to determine how a rule works, it's important that things that work the same way be stated in the same way so that readers don't assume variance where there is none.
All the products we release are my projects, and whatever people however many years ago said, we now have a full editing staff and style guide.
Artalost,
That was Sean Reynolds. Part of his "charm" was he could be a bit abrasive and he tended to speak his mind. That said, it was rather fun to have a designer actively debate the community on the rules. You win some; you lose some.
Other pet types aren't impeded so.
I can't speak to eidolons as I've never been allowed to play one, but let's compare to animal companions:
Phantom vs. Animal Companion
Hit Dice: Phantoms are bigger
BAB: Phantoms are higher
Feats: Can take any feat without putting stat boost in Int (and can use feats that require hands/speach). They also get two free Skill Focus feats.
Skills: Can invest in and use any skill
Abilities: Have supernatural abilities and auras that often benefit the entire team
Gear: It falls off if they have to walk through a wall or you make them go inside your head (and become un-targetable) while Animal Companions get to continue wearing their gear while they stare at the wall they can't walk through and if they get surrounded and subsequently killed by the enemy.
I'm afraid I don't see the flawed game design.
Anything that would effect a physical body (poison, disease, paralysis, etc...) goes away when the phantom "loses" it's physical body and becomes a ghost (ie. incorporeal).
Many Spells/Su abilities will trigger such affects, and they can indeed affect incorporeals, in some cases not even subject to "corporeal spell" 50% chance of working clause. It's plausible to invoke the 50% damage/ 50% chance of working clause (for 'corporeal' Sp/Su effects, not e.g. Will Save vs Paralysis) if you become incorporeal after the fact, but I wouldn't say they just automatically go away. Any wholly-physical effects like poison would also not be wholly REMOVED by going incorporeal, but are simply temporarily unable to harm the Phantom: Once they return to corporality any remaining Poison effects/Saves etc. would be in effect.
Incorporeal phantoms can "airwalk" but can't fly until 8th level.
"Can't Fall" doesn't imply Airwalk, i.e. mobility across open space, they would still rely on adjacent solid features for mobility. Well, to be generous, there's no technical reason they couldn't move by jumping, dependent on Acrobatics check for distance moved, but you're going to spend a Move Action for each jump.
I'm skeptical about the "equipment disappearing" thing other than the explicitly mentioned "gear dropping" when "going inside head of Spiritualist". AFAIK that just doesn't happen during other transformations, if "you" become Ethereal (or are Banished), your gear should as well... I'd like to see more clarity on that, at the least.
Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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At this point, as the original thread creator, I'm realizing that the simplest thing to do, especially in PFS, is to treat the phantom just like an eidolon (ie. an Outsider) for all intents and purposes. Anything that would effect a physical body (poison, disease, paralysis, etc...) goes away when the phantom "loses" it's physical body and becomes a ghost (ie. incorporeal). Incorporeal phantoms can "airwalk" but can't fly until 8th level. That's a good fix for the mechanics of how to employ a phantom for the 80 to 90% of the situations you see in most Pathfinder games.
Not to offer a definitive ruling on the matter—this topic is more in the design team's wheelhouse and subject to their purview—but the idea that going ethereal completely purges a big chunk of ongoing negative effects strikes me as not quite right in a "you're using this feature to accomplish too much" sort of way. At the most, I might say that the effects you referenced (assuming they are from corporeal, non-magical sources) might be suppressed for the duration of the incorporeality, barring a few oddities like entangled that you and your GM can call as you see them.
As for the not falling bit, it might be better to instead take a page from the heavens oracle's lure of the heavens ability, where the creature floats a few inches above the floor.
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Well, here is the basis for my "anything that would effect a physical body goes away" theory. This isn't perfect reasoning, by any means, just my take on the simplest fix for the problems I've seen in just one game.
From the Pathfinder Reference Guide:
"Incorporeal (Ex) An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms."
Also:
"Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage."
Those quotes are straight out of the Universal Monster Rules. If the phantom steps out over a pit while incorporeal, does it fall? No? Then it keeps walking across to the other side. Is the poison afflicting the ectoplasmic phantom magical? No? Then it stops harming the phantom as soon as it switches to "ghost" mode. Same for disease or anything else that isn't covered in the above blurb. The phantom might have to stay incorporeal until the poison runs its course or a remove disease spell can be cast, but that's the simplest and most straight-forward fix to the issue (again, IMHO).
Since I can point back to something that is Rules As Written (RAW) and I play a lot of PFS, that's my interpretation until someone from the design or development team says otherwise (in which case, I go with whatever they say). I could totally be off-base with my interpretation, but that's the best I've come up with so far....
Ooops, looks like I got ninja'ed by the Man himself.
So...what he said :-) (which makes total sense to me, and I completely agree that it shouldn't be a huge "Get Out of Jail Free" card for Spiritualists)
That being said, I was tempted to use a full-round action to switch poor Mace (my zealous phantom's name) over to incorporeal form right before the BBEG in The Confirmation turned him into a big pile of green entrails. "Get Out of Jail Free" card indeed.....
Other pet types aren't impeded so.I can't speak to eidolons as I've never been allowed to play one, but let's compare to animal companions:
Phantom vs. Animal Companion
Hit Dice: Phantoms are bigger
BAB: Phantoms are higher
Feats: Can take any feat without putting stat boost in Int (and can use feats that require hands/speach). They also get two free Skill Focus feats.
Skills: Can invest in and use any skill
Abilities: Have supernatural abilities and auras that often benefit the entire teamGear: It falls off if they have to walk through a wall or you make them go inside your head (and become un-targetable) while Animal Companions get to continue wearing their gear while they stare at the wall they can't walk through and if they get surrounded and subsequently killed by the enemy.
I'm afraid I don't see the flawed game design.
Animal companions don't disappear for 24 hours for moving too far away from their master.
I can't recall any time I wanted to send my AC further than 30 ft from my character. Familiars, yes, but not AC.
That simply limits your ethereal, wall-lock-trap bypassing intelligent talking friend from scouting the entire dungeon layout at level 1.
So I'm not going to be easily convinced that Phantoms and everything that comes with them are worse than AC in any way except pure direct damage output for tigers and dinosaurs because their gear falls to the ground when you shunt them into your head to save their life or because you want the two free Skill Focus feats.
One FAQ question: Given we are told the Phantom "has the same alignment" as the Spiritualist, what happens when the Spiritualist changes alignment (either normally, or temporarily under some effect)? Does Phantom just follow their moral shift? Should they summon new Phantom? (which may happen normally when they call it out)
This wording is different then e.g. Familiars, where alignment restrictions only apply to initial "choosing" of Familiar, and if you shift in alignment away from the Familiar, it doesn't per se have any rules effect.
That is an interesting question. I notice that the Shadowdancer's Shadow Companion has similar wording.
Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow's alignment matches that of the shadowdancer, and the creature cannot create spawn.
Phantoms are outsiders that used to be living beings - just like some angels, some devils, some demons... They are NOT undead and they are healed by positive energy and harmed by negative energy.
Poison works. Disease works. Sleep works. They need air. They can use non-weapon and non-armor items freely, including potions.
Just don't add rules that aren't in the books. Why would they be immune to poison, or sleep? Does it say anywhere that they would be? Just because it might seem weird, doesn't mean it's an unanswered rules question.
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With that said, I have NO idea how "incorporeal but can't fly" works. THAT definitely needs some clarity.
It's simple. There's nothing about the incorporeal state that grants a fly ability. They don't fall, but that doesn't mean that they fly.
An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.
An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.
An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.
An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Perception checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.
I like someone's suggestion up-stream. Note the following is a suggestion, that *could* be inferred from RAW, but is in no way an attempt to define RAW. Whew.
It can step out over a chasm without falling, but has no way to step further since it can't get purchase on open air. Basically ends up the same as in-walls. They can stay adjacent to solid ground, but can't cross any chasm wider than themselves, except by jumping like anyone else.
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Animal companions don't disappear for 24 hours for moving too far away from their master.Other pet types aren't impeded so.I can't speak to eidolons as I've never been allowed to play one, but let's compare to animal companions:
Phantom vs. Animal Companion:
Hit Dice: Phantoms are bigger
BAB: Phantoms are higher
Feats: Can take any feat without putting stat boost in Int (and can use feats that require hands/speach). They also get two free Skill Focus feats.
Skills: Can invest in and use any skill
Abilities: Have supernatural abilities and auras that often benefit the entire teamGear: It falls off if they have to walk through a wall or you make them go inside your head (and become un-targetable) while Animal Companions get to continue wearing their gear while they stare at the wall they can't walk through and if they get surrounded and subsequently killed by the enemy.
I'm afraid I don't see the flawed game design.
Phantoms remanifest after 24 hours, whereas you'd have to pay to replace your familiar/animal companion.
I realise I am a little late to the "by why are they Outsiders" part of the conversation. But I thought they were somewhat modelled on Petitioners from Bestiary 2. They fit pretty well, anyway, and are Outsiders as it makes sense for them to be.
Text tying phantoms and petitioners together somehow might help explain to people why they are not undead (if that is the design teams conception of how it works - I guess it is possible petitioners have been utterly forgotten about by the staff).
Phantoms remanifest after 24 hours, whereas you'd have to pay to replace your familiar/animal companion.Animal companions don't disappear for 24 hours for moving too far away from their master.Other pet types aren't impeded so.I can't speak to eidolons as I've never been allowed to play one, but let's compare to animal companions:
** spoiler omitted **
Gear: It falls off if they have to walk through a wall or you make them go inside your head (and become un-targetable) while Animal Companions get to continue wearing their gear while they stare at the wall they can't walk through and if they get surrounded and subsequently killed by the enemy.
I'm afraid I don't see the flawed game design.
You don't have to pay anything to replace your Animal Companion (Not that it is really relevant).
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If creature is incorporeal, it doesn't need to fly to go up, since gravity doesn't affect it. This is said in the rules for incorporeality.
Please quote the applicable rule here. Neither the Incorporeal condition, nor the Incorporeal Special Quality (Universal Monster Rules) mention anything about gravity.
Plus, Phantoms explicitly gain Incorporeal Flight at 9th level, which would seem to imply that they can't do the equivalent of flying (however you want to semantically twist it) until then.