Errata request: It appears my psychic can no longer go to town.

[Mystic Mickey]

Hey man,

Mystic Mickey with the Sick Sticky Icky here. I uh...I hit level 13 and suddenly riots break out whenever I walk into crowds. I can't even go pick up basic supplies without causing some problems...and I can't stop it. It's a good thing I picked up that Ring of Sustenance to deal with the munchies, because I'd hate to see what happens if I go to market. They all just get seriously unchill and start hitting each other...or themselves...or talking like they got their hands on some of my better herbs.

Please help!

So, the psychedelia discipline has this ability:

Quote:

Hallucinogenic Aura (Su): At 13th level, a mental field emanates from you, touching the minds of those nearby. Any creature within 30 feet of you must succeed at a Will save or be confused for 1d4 rounds. A creature that succeeds at its saving throw is immune to your hallucinogenic aura for 24 hours. A creature that fails its save doesn't need to continue making saves while it's confused by this aura, and becomes immune for 24 hours once its confusion ends. This is a mind-affecting effect. You're immune to your own hallucinogenic aura, as well as that of any other psychic. You can brew an antidote that protects the imbiber from your aura. Brewing 1 dose requires 1 hour and a successful DC 15 Craft (alchemy) check. One dose's effects last for 1 month.

Items of note:

• It's always on.
• You can't shut it off or suppress it.
• There's a 50% chance of violence for anyone affected.

This is a hilarious defense in combat. Truly wonderful. It was less good when I used a teleportation gate and arrived in a large crowd of civilians. It would be very nice if this were to be addressed in some fashion as this character is in PFS.

[Cavall]

I guess if you live in the mana waste it's not as bad?

[LittleMissNaga]

I've got a high-level psychedelic psychic in one campaign. She's fun. Attends to the needs of a local dragon. Has a little lounge of pillows on one side of his lair. Stays a bit over 30 ft. from everyone at all times. Deals with that with a lot of mind-altering substances.

It's a difficult ability. Probably should be turn-offable. As-is, PCs basically can't choose it, or they become incapable of interacting with society.

[cuatroespada]

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

but, yeah, that should probably be surpressable.

[Milo v3]

I'm pretty sure that's intended.

[Blindmage]

Well, you can always make a ton of antidote potions, only 1hr to make and effect for a month, just have some party members distribute them. If I had this ability, I've have tons of potions on hand at all times.

[Cavall]

Blindmage wrote:

Well, you can always make a ton of antidote potions, only 1hr to make and effect for a month, just have some party members distribute them. If I had this ability, I've have tons of potions on hand at all times.

Hey this guy is coming to town! Everyone has to drink this!

....

We can't even get vaccination done to prevent disease and you think a whole towns going to drunk an unknown potion so one guy can wander around? Hahha doubtful.

[Blindmage]

By the time you're lvl 13, you've got a reputation, I'd assume (silly me) a non-blatantly evil PC. Your rep might carry weight.

[Cavall]

Blindmage wrote:

By the time you're lvl 13, you've got a reputation, I'd assume (silly me) a non-blatantly evil PC. Your rep might carry weight.

Jenny MaCarthy has a higher level than the CDC I guess then. But it's not his rep that's carrying it anyways. It's the one carrying a vial and saying he represents that level 13 character.

But even of he was Blatantly non evil, he still makes people attack themselves and their friends, throw their children down stairs and bring commerce to a halt.

And that's the real reputation he carries. Not deeds or songs or acts. The fact his mere presence brings madness.

So yeah, it's a big assumption. Bigger than just having a party member go into town for you rather than a town submitting to your whims for company.

I'm not trying to belittle the idea just saying the whole situation is harder than what it looks like on paper.

[Jurassic Pratt]

Luckily normal society play ends at level 12, right before this kicks in. Other than creating problems for Seeker arcs, this character will have no trouble for 99% of his games in PFS.

[Mystic Mickey]

Jurassic Pratt wrote:

Luckily normal society play ends at level 12, right before this kicks in. Other than creating problems for Seeker arcs, this character will have no trouble for 99% of his games in PFS.

I just did part 3 of Eyes of the Ten yesterday. It starts with

Spoiler:

you teleporting into an enormous crowd. Part 4 apparently brings you back to Absalom.

I'm following that up with the rest of the Seeker content.

[Melkiador]

I'm reminded of all of the special precautions Fairy Tail takes when Gildarts enters town.

[QuidEst]

At level 14, you can pick up Telekinetic Sphere to bubble yourself off for 14 minutes per casting. With a Greater Rod of Extend Spell, you get about an hour and twenty minutes per day in your magic hamster ball.

[Melkiador]

I'd be a little concerned this option will be removed as an option from PFS. If not that, I expect PFS to add an alternate rule for that ability, that isn't so incredibly disrupting.

[The Peyote Tea Gamer]

I'm staying next to that person, like twenty four seven.

[Serisan]

The Peyote Tea Gamer wrote:

I'm staying next to that person, like twenty four seven.

Still only once a day for no more than 24 seconds at a time, mind you, but that's enough to start some MAJOR disturbances.

[Murdock Mudeater]

As GM, I'd allow it suppressed as per the rules for suppressing Spell Resistance.

That said, at 13th level, the towns you visit might start featuring NPCs with higher will saves.

[Blindmage]

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

As GM, I'd allow it suppressed as per the rules for suppressing Spell Resistance.

That said, at 13th level, the towns you visit might start featuring NPCs with higher will saves.

I think it's not so much the notable NPCs in a town, but the commoners in the feilds, streets, and shops that the OP is worried about.

[Serisan]

Blindmage wrote:

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

As GM, I'd allow it suppressed as per the rules for suppressing Spell Resistance.

That said, at 13th level, the towns you visit might start featuring NPCs with higher will saves.

I think it's not so much the notable NPCs in a town, but the commoners in the feilds, streets, and shops that the OP is worried about.

This is exactly the problem.

[Boemond.]

Just cross your fingers and hope that the commoners can't accomplish too much mischief in 1d4 rounds--maybe just be ready to daze the one guy who was chopping firewood or eating a steak. That or always fly 30 feet up and use mage hand a lot for interactions.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

As GM, I'd allow it suppressed as per the rules for suppressing Spell Resistance.

Looked up the SR rules. Yeah, Standard action to suppress, but can be done every round if you want to. So, you'd basically walk at half speed when going through towns and couldn't do any full-round actions since you'd be too focused on not making people go crazy.

I know, that would be a house rule, but your point regarding the ability being very disruptive in a campaign is a very reasonable concern. Especially for pre-made adventures, like PFS scenarios, where the GM can't do major alterations to the setting or NPCs to accommodate unusually passive abilities like this.

[Saethori]

This thread fills me with more sadistic glue than is probably normal. So I'm going to examine the numbers behind this.

Your average commoner is likely to have only 1 level in some random npc class. The ones you see on the street, your average person, is likely of the Commoner NPC class.

This affords them, on average, 3.5 HP, and a Will save of... +0. (Remember, NPC classes don't get max hp for first level.)

The DC to resist the psychedelic aura is 10 + half level + INT mod. Let's be conservative and say the level 13 psychic has only barely enough INT for his level 6 spells, so 16 INT. This gives us a DC of 10 + 6 + 3, or 19. At a +0 to save, 90% of commoners will fail their save.

Now, what do they do once they're confused? Well, it lasts an average of 2.5 rounds per commoner, but let's say just 2 for the example.

Confusion is split into "act normally", "speak gibberish", "hit self", and "hit nearest". That's a 50% chance they are compelled to do violence in some manner, per round! Only 25% of the villagers will get away without hurting anybody, or 32.5% if we count the 10% making their will save. That means a staggering two thirds of the mundane populace are driven to madness the moment they are near you!

Of the remaining 67.5%, 40% of them will attack themselves, 40% will attack the nearest person, and a lucky 20% do both!

Hitting the guy next to you doesn't do much. They aren't likely to be carrying anything dangerous, so it will just be an unarmed punch, and may miss regardless. Hitting yourself, though... It doesn't matter what you have in hand at the time, even if all it is are your hands. You deal 1d8+STR (assumed average/neutral), automatically.

1d8. But commoners get 3 HP. That's a 62.5% chance that these lucky commoners will knock themselves bleeding, and in the panic, they may find difficulty getting medical aid.

Now, 62.5% of 60% of 75% of 90% may only amount to 25% of the populace. This may fall under acceptable costs of being near an adventurer; really, dragon attacks probably are much worse. But among the survivors, there is going to be shattered trusts, serious injuries, and, for the most part, the general understanding that it was all the Psychic's fault. And word will get around.

[Serisan]

Saethori wrote:

This thread fills me with more sadistic glue than is probably normal. So I'm going to examine the numbers behind this.

Your average commoner is likely to have only 1 level in some random npc class. The ones you see on the street, your average person, is likely of the Commoner NPC class.

This affords them, on average, 3.5 HP, and a Will save of... +0. (Remember, NPC classes don't get max hp for first level.)

The DC to resist the psychedelic aura is 10 + half level + INT mod. Let's be conservative and say the level 13 psychic has only barely enough INT for his level 6 spells, so 16 INT. This gives us a DC of 10 + 6 + 3, or 19. At a +0 to save, 90% of commoners will fail their save.

Now, what do they do once they're confused? Well, it lasts an average of 2.5 rounds per commoner, but let's say just 2 for the example.

Confusion is split into "act normally", "speak gibberish", "hit self", and "hit nearest". That's a 50% chance they are compelled to do violence in some manner, per round! Only 25% of the villagers will get away without hurting anybody, or 32.5% if we count the 10% making their will save. That means a staggering two thirds of the mundane populace are driven to madness the moment they are near you!

Of the remaining 67.5%, 40% of them will attack themselves, 40% will attack the nearest person, and a lucky 20% do both!

Hitting the guy next to you doesn't do much. They aren't likely to be carrying anything dangerous, so it will just be an unarmed punch, and may miss regardless. Hitting yourself, though... It doesn't matter what you have in hand at the time, even if all it is are your hands. You deal 1d8+STR (assumed average/neutral), automatically.

1d8. But commoners get 3 HP. That's a 62.5% chance that these lucky commoners will knock themselves bleeding, and in the panic, they may find difficulty getting medical aid.

Now, 62.5% of 60% of 75% of 90% may only amount to 25% of the populace. This may fall under acceptable costs of being near an adventurer; really, dragon attacks...

Let's not forget the possibility that actual riots break out as people snap out of the confusion effect. It's variable per individual, after all. Commoner A gets 4 rounds and manages to babble incoherently for that round, but Commoner B gets 1 round and punches Commoner A. Commoner A is then locked into attacking Commoner B for the rest of the confusion effect. For the next 18 seconds, Commoner A is going to be swinging on Commoner B, no matter what else is going on, unless someone else attacks Commoner A.

What, pray tell, do you think Commoner B's no-longer-confused response will be? What about Commoners C-Z in the town square, who most likely had similarly bad experiences?

[Murdock Mudeater]

Technically, the wording on confusion is:

Quote:

Deal 1d8 points of damage + Str modifier to self with item in hand

with regard to attacking self. Note that it says item in hand. An unarmed NPC is unable to attack themselves with an item in hand, and would default to incoherent babbling. I know, this is a generous interpretation and I'd probably rule it otherwise if the NPC were an intended opponent.

For attacking others, I'd argue that most commoner NPCs will be non-proficient with any weapons they have (including unarmed strikes). So they'd be -4 on this attack, and I'd probably add further penalty to have them attempt non-lethal damage with their strikes.

Now, all that said, any NPCs that die or are injured due to this ability will be blood on your hands. You didn't have to take the 13th level of this class and can certainly retrain it to something more NPC friendly. Depending on witnesses and the importance of certain NPCs, there may be in-game consequences to this ability.

Likewise, if your party is aware of your ability, confused NPCs attacking the party will be "defending themselves" and any violent response by the party will NOT be considered "acting in self defense."

Personally, I'd take a level in something else if you intend to play a good aligned character, or in a good-aligned party.

[Mark Carlson 255]

Can you drink your own antidote potion to suppress the ability for 1 month?

If yes, then could you make a potion that suppress the ability for less time by increasing the DC and or the cost?

MDC

[Murdock Mudeater]

Mark Carlson 255 wrote:

Can you drink your own antidote potion to suppress the ability for 1 month?

Doesn't look like it works that way. Though the issue is that he wants the ability, just doesn't want it in town.

[Mark Carlson 255]

I was just trying to think outside the box to solve the problem. If I were the GM (Note I have not read the rules for the class or have the book) I would allow a way to turn off the ability for a time by brewing a potion you could drink that negates the ability.
I do agree it is a great ability to have your enemies attack one another w/o spending resources but assigning a gp cost to brew a potion to suppress your ability short term is also a good work around in my book.

Other work around's:
1) Get some hirelings and or students or lower levels to do your every day mundane tasks for you. You can antidote them for 1 month for fairly low cost and they can do all of your town stuff. (IMHO as a GM I might allow the player to create an alt PC for use in town at 1/2 level if I was running a home game and it was not organized play. Which IIRC it is)
2) Allow the PC to switch out the ability as I the GM and probably the player did not understand the full ramifications of the side effects of the ability at the time the player chose it. Or I the GM did not explain the full ramifications to the player. If I the GM did then it is upon the player to continue playing the PC.

Outside the box (note not a PF expert by any means):
I sort of like adding to the ability that if you drink your antidote you suppress your own ability for X length of time. But I am unsure as to the time frame as a short length would mean the PC would just create a lot of potions fore use during a town adventure but have the ability essentially when they wanted but a longer suppression time would essentially be more beneficial in most non-adventuring cases.

MDC

[shadowkras]

Well, you can make potions for people so they become immune on your next visit that month. Otherwise, you will have to prepare antimagic field (available at 13th).

Calm Emotions is another option.

[Zaister]

This is just hilarious.

[MeanMutton]

Saethori wrote:

...Hitting the guy next to you doesn't do much. They aren't likely to be carrying anything dangerous, so it will just be an unarmed punch, and may miss regardless....

Commoners are very unlikely to be wearing armor but are incredibly likely to be carrying something dangerous - a woodcutter is probably carrying an axe, a hunter is probably carrying a bow, carpenters doubtless have saws and hammers, miners would have pick-axes, merchants likely have a small weapon to protect them from thieves, pretty much everyone would have a dagger for general protection and overall utility, and pretty much any hunk of wood would make a pretty good club.

[Saethori]

Yes, but the odds of them having any of those in hand in the village square aren't likely. At the least, such tools will be stowed away on their person, and the insanity seems to preclude unsheatheing your most lethal weapon.

And yeah, I was absolutely thinking about the psychological effects that situations like best friends punching each other, mothers punching their children, etc would be. I'm being generous in saying they can put two and two together and figure out it all started when the Psychic came to town, but let's face it; ignorant masses are called such for a reason, and people are often eager to pin blame.

[Torbyne]

Saethori wrote:

Yes, but the odds of them having any of those in hand in the village square aren't likely. At the least, such tools will be stowed away on their person, and the insanity seems to preclude unsheatheing your most lethal weapon.

And yeah, I was absolutely thinking about the psychological effects that situations like best friends punching each other, mothers punching their children, etc would be. I'm being generous in saying they can put two and two together and figure out it all started when the Psychic came to town, but let's face it; ignorant masses are called such for a reason, and people are often eager to pin blame.

Mothers beating people with their children (hey, you carry kids all the time, get that nice 1.5 STR mod to them too) people getting slapped by turkey legs, tankards, baguettes... all kinds of improvised weapons out there. Gets even better when the guard shows up to restore order.

[Torbyne]

For what its worth, a baguette would work as an improvised Sap in my games.

[QuidEst]

I'd probably allow drinking your own antidote for 24 hours of suppression, but only after failing to get traction on the telekinetic hamster ball.

[Mark Carlson 255]

Is 24 hours too little time for suppression of the ability? Or should it be longer to be more of a detriment? As I think in most games spending a little gold is not as much a negative vs not having the ability.

I like either 12, 24 or 48 hours but I think someone with more knowledge and play experience then me should do a little play testing and see where it goes. ie what are the pros and cons of each and analysis it vs your and others play style. And just how it meshes with Pathfinder Organized Play (POP).
Another idea is to turn it on its head in that you have to drink a potion to activate the ability for X hours so it is not always on. If this was an option I would not have a way for the effects invoker to turn off the ability but I would still provide the antidote with the duration of 1 months immunity time.

Some of the things I would look at for testing would be, how often does it come into play?; how effective is it (vs encounters at party level, groups (high, med and low level), single baddie, pumped boss, etc), in POP what is the tone they strive for and does this fit a PC ability or should it be a NPC ability in POP?
Note: I do not know anything about POP, but IMHO in general this ability I think would cause lots of problems in organized play and in a game that was more social orientated. As a GM depending on the game I was running I might even restrict it to bad guys only.

But that may be a little too much analysts for most casual groups and a GM ruling X with the caveat that he/she may change it to Y or Z later would be fine (with most groups I have played in).

Just some ideas.
MDC

[Serisan]

So, Mickey is my character. He's PFS. As much as I would like to avail the table GM for options, we have to go with the bonkers writing of the ability. The only grace here is that he's working through Seeker-tier content and there's not a lot of that.

On the upside, Mickey goes nowhere without Overland Flight active, so he *can* just fly around. Not a whole lot of interpersonal interaction there, though. I still have to send party members out shopping.

[Mark Carlson 255]

I wish you good luck on finding a solution to the stick wicket you have there.
MDC

[Diego Rossi]

Boemond. wrote:

Just cross your fingers and hope that the commoners can't accomplish too much mischief in 1d4 rounds--maybe just be ready to daze the one guy who was chopping firewood or eating a steak. That or always fly 30 feet up and use mage hand a lot for interactions.

1d8+str self inflicted damage for 25% of them. No need for any kind of weapon. Enough to put a lot of commoners under 0 hp and to kill a few elder or sick persons.

[Torbyne]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Boemond. wrote:

Just cross your fingers and hope that the commoners can't accomplish too much mischief in 1d4 rounds--maybe just be ready to daze the one guy who was chopping firewood or eating a steak. That or always fly 30 feet up and use mage hand a lot for interactions.

1d8+str self inflicted damage for 25% of them. No need for any kind of weapon. Enough to put a lot of commoners under 0 hp and to kill a few elder or sick persons.

Wont someone please think of the children!?

[Mark Carlson 255]

Mystic Mickey,
I am no expert but is there some one at the PFS you can post this to as a possible problem?

Also when and if you get an answer from then please post it in this thread.

Thanks
MDC

[Serisan]

Mark Carlson 255 wrote:

Mystic Mickey,

I am no expert but is there some one at the PFS you can post this to as a possible problem?

Also when and if you get an answer from then please post it in this thread.

Thanks
MDC

The Venture Officer answer so far is "the ability is clear as written."

[Just a Guess]

Would it be PvP if you affect another PC with that ability?

[Serisan]

Just a Guess wrote:

Would it be PvP if you affect another PC with that ability?

Before the scenario briefing, I provide all of the PCs with the antidote, setting it on a table and walking away. It avoids the question entirely and is completely legal.

[MeanMutton]

Serisan wrote:

Mark Carlson 255 wrote:

Mystic Mickey,

I am no expert but is there some one at the PFS you can post this to as a possible problem?

Also when and if you get an answer from then please post it in this thread.

Thanks
MDC

The Venture Officer answer so far is "the ability is clear as written."

To be fair - it is. It's just a really, really inconvenient ability on occasion.

[Saldiven]

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Technically, the wording on confusion is:

Quote:

Deal 1d8 points of damage + Str modifier to self with item in hand

with regard to attacking self. Note that it says item in hand. An unarmed NPC is unable to attack themselves with an item in hand, and would default to incoherent babbling. I know, this is a generous interpretation and I'd probably rule it otherwise if the NPC were an intended opponent.

Pretty much anything they are holding could count as an improvised weapon. The spell doesn't care about that, though. If they're carrying a basket of groceries, they bludgeon themselves around the head and shoulders with their rutabagas and cantaloupe, doing 1d8+Str points of damage.

[Serisan]

MeanMutton wrote:

Serisan wrote:

Mark Carlson 255 wrote:

Mystic Mickey,

I am no expert but is there some one at the PFS you can post this to as a possible problem?

Also when and if you get an answer from then please post it in this thread.

Thanks
MDC

The Venture Officer answer so far is "the ability is clear as written."

To be fair - it is. It's just a really, really inconvenient ability on occasion.

Hence why I asked for errata.

[Mark Carlson 255]

Speaking for myself and many of my games; it would severely hamper the PC, unless it was some sort of endless fight type campaign and no social interaction. If a PC took the ability (after reading this thread as in most cases I would just trust them and find out what they had "leveled up" during the game) I would explain the ramifications of the PC causing so much possible damage from just taking a walk in a populated area and just how much trouble the PC would have doing every day tasks.

All people and games are different and not that my 2 cents is worth more than your 2 cents but in most games I have played in the ability would severely limit the PC on what they could and could not do during game play.
Now if that is the intent behind the class and the ability then as I said before I think I would allow the play the option of picking another ability once he or she learned just how often it affected game play and how often they could interact at the game table.

MDC

[Ravingdork]

This is right up there with Stunning Eruption stunning your allies at the start of the encounter.

[swoosh]

MeanMutton wrote:

Serisan wrote:

The Venture Officer answer so far is "the ability is clear as written."

To be fair - it is. It's just a really, really inconvenient ability on occasion.

I don't think it's clear at all that the designers intended for the ability to make any psychic who picks the psychadelia discipline to entirely stop functioning outside dungeons once they hit level 13.

PFS GMs are empowered to make ad hoc rulings on things that are broken and this ability is very clearly broken.

Ravingdork wrote:

This is right up there with Stunning Eruption stunning your allies at the start of the encounter.

At least you get to pick when to activate that feat.

[Cavall]

I'd actually think on demand aoe confusion is more broken then constant you can't choose it is.

Like I said, mana wastes. At least you'll be near some anti magic. Which seems to stop this.