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Don't know if this has been suggested before (searched this board but only found one thread that was similar) but can't the Social Class Features of the Vigilante be turned into a template of sorts that can applied to any class?
Basically take the Dual identity, seamless guise, and social talents class features of the Vigilante exactly as described and just add them to any other class. So you would have a 'Vigilanteed' Cleric who has Aura, domains, spells, channels etc etc. but also has the three social vigilante class features I mentioned at first level. They'd get a social talent every odd level as well.
The difference between this and a one level dip into Vigilante would be the removal of vigilante specialization and getting a social talent every odd level.
The difference between this and gestalt vigilante is similar, No vigilante specialization or talents.
Essentially it's giving every class a Bruce Wayne alter ego with the class itself being the 'Batman'.
I haven't thought about it super in depth but I think it would work out just fine as an add on for every class in the game.
In a combat heavy game a 'Vigilanteed Whatever' would just be nice fluff.
In a social heavy game it would probably give an edge to the 'Vigilanteed' class over non Vigilante members? Of course the way to get around this in a homebrew would be requiring every party member to be 'Vigilanteed' to make everyone equal.
Seems like a fun option for a homebrew campaign in which everyone has to be a Vigilante for thematic reasons so players don't need to be restricted to the Vigilante archetypes and can pick from all the class options that Pathfinder provides. Good option to apply to a NPC foe as well.
Straight ahead Vigilantes still have a place in this scheme as the Vigilante talents and archetypes are pretty amazing and are the best first round combatants in the game I think.
While I have not really looked at it, there is a segment on creating alternate identities in Inner Sea Intrigue.
Hah, not buying and reading every Paizo published book bites me in the ass again! Quick googling seems to suggest that 'Masked Personas' aren't as powerful as the full social side of the Vigilante so maybe this is an alternative that still has value?
Hah, not buying and reading every Paizo published book bites me in the ass again! Quick googling seems to suggest that 'Masked Personas' aren't as powerful as the full social side of the Vigilante so maybe this is an alternative that still has value?
The identity mechanic for a masked persona functions identically to the dual identity class ability.
They don't hand out social talents or let you switch alignments, but you get protection from scrying and knowledge gathering, which is what matters.
There are feats that give you the renown talent and better.
We need a VMC Vigilante(*). Unfortunately, Pathfinder Unchained 2 has not been announced.
(*)And VMC {each Hybrid Class,and VMC {each Occult Class} . . . .
So the vigalanteed alchemist would be like the Hulk. The mutagen effect would keep recurring when he gets angry or frustrated? Banner could make bombs and extracts. The Hulk could smash.
Scrying wouldn't work because you are looking for the Hulk while Banner's joined the Peace Corp. You are not scrying for Banner.
Well, this guys was timely, considering this thread... :D
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I like this.
It's definitely a massive freebie, but that's ok. You could use it like Gestalts: It's a buff, but it's a fair, manageable buff that NPCs sometimes get too. You probably don't need to significantly adjust encounters, but I would give it to all the PCs or none.
You pretty much can't use the Vigilante itself when this rule is in play. I recommend allowing anybody with a Dual Identity to take Vigilante Talents as feats. That way nothing is really lost and everybody has access to a goody bag of costumed adventurer abilities if they're willing to pay for them.
You'd have to decided which class features can be used without raising suspicion on a case-by-case basis. It's a pretty easy call to say that a Wizard's magic risks giving him away, but what about a Bard's versatile performance? I don't foresee it being a problem if you make sure everybody knows how you've ruled as soon as the ability is acquired, rather than letting them find out when it's first used.
Obviously this rule would be great for superhero themed games that have episodic plots or a dimension of personal drama, but it could also be excellent for evil aligned parties or heist stories.
EDIT: For a really over the top superpowers game, you could tie dual identity to mythic. Mythic characters get mundane identities, mythic abilities risk revealing them and a new social talent is awarded at each rank instead of every two levels.
So the vigalanteed alchemist would be like the Hulk. The mutagen effect would keep recurring when he gets angry or frustrated? Banner could make bombs and extracts. The Hulk could smash.
Scrying wouldn't work because you are looking for the Hulk while Banner's joined the Peace Corp. You are not scrying for Banner.
I think the Brute Archetype of the Vigilante is exactly designed to be the Pathfinder version of the Hulk. Without all the tricks of a Rage Alchemist though so a Vigalanteed Rage Alchemist might still be a more fitting option.
Dual Identity is one thing given how niche it is, but giving everyone full, free social talent progression is pretty damn significant.
Even if you give it to everyone, at the very least it heavily devalues the vigilante class itself, since you're giving literally half of its class features for free to everyone. Think of something to give them to compensate.
Or just don't hand out free social talents.
Well the Social Talents are really nifty for characters who have to hide their identity. How about either:
Buffing straight Vigilantes so they get a social talent at first and then additional social talents at the same progression as 3/4 BAB. 16 social talents by level 20 instead of the basic 10.
OR
Nerfing Vigilanteed characters so they get a social talent at first and then every third level thereafter. 7 social talents by 20 instead of the basic 10.
I'd prefer the first option.
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I just realised that this idea would work very well with the Background Skills rule from Unchained. Its additional skill points should help create a more rounded character, with skills reflecting both identities.
It might be cool to offer characters characters a limited selection of free traits, requiring them to pick one from a list of social identity backgrounds and one from a list of origin stories. That would help cement the concept and ensure that people have access to important class skills like Disguise if they need them.
I like this.
It's definitely a massive freebie, but that's ok. You could use it like Gestalts: It's a buff, but it's a fair, manageable buff that NPCs sometimes get too. You probably don't need to significantly adjust encounters, but I would give it to all the PCs or none.
You pretty much can't use the Vigilante itself when this rule is in play. I recommend allowing anybody with a Dual Identity to take Vigilante Talents as feats. That way nothing is really lost and everybody has access to a goody bag of costumed adventurer abilities if they're willing to pay for them.
You'd have to decided which class features can be used without raising suspicion on a case-by-case basis. It's a pretty easy call to say that a Wizard's magic risks giving him away, but what about a Bard's versatile performance? I don't foresee it being a problem if you make sure everybody knows how you've ruled as soon as the ability is acquired, rather than letting them find out when it's first used.
Obviously this rule would be great for superhero themed games that have episodic plots or a dimension of personal drama, but it could also be excellent for evil aligned parties or heist stories.
EDIT: For a really over the top superpowers game, you could tie dual identity to mythic. Mythic characters get mundane identities, mythic abilities risk revealing them and a new social talent is awarded at each rank instead of every two levels.
Mortuuum: I like all your variants as well. One of the reasons I'm not too put out by using Straight Vigilantes along with 'Vigilanteed' Characters is because Vigilante Talents are just really really amazing options and having them exclusive to straight Vigilantes keeps them feeling unique. Buffing the Social side by giving them more talents does make sense though. They should be unsurpassed at manipulating situations to their advantage in their social identity compared to their vigilanteed counterparts.
Where can I find the Brute Alchemist?
Where can I find the Brute Alchemist?
There isn't one.
Where can I find the Brute Alchemist?There isn't one.
So, homebrew. Cool. Good Name.
So, homebrew. Cool. Good Name.Where can I find the Brute Alchemist?There isn't one.
there is a brute vigilante
Yeah I meant the Brute Vigilante.
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Sadly, it's complete garbage... So stay with the Alchemist build.
Design Manager
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***
You pretty much can't use the Vigilante itself when this rule is in play. I recommend allowing anybody with a Dual Identity to take Vigilante Talents as feats. That way nothing is really lost and everybody has access to a goody bag of costumed adventurer abilities if they're willing to pay for them.
***
You do mention the suggestion being for a high-powered game, but I thought it was important to note that, in general, Vigilate Talents are massively better than feats. They tend to be worth about 2.5 feats on average. So, just be aware of that.
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Yeah, they're good and I'd have to read over them again with that rule in mind before I made them so easy to get. With the Mythic version of the rules I might instead add a mythic feat called Vigilante Talent that can be taken multiple times.
The option has to be powerful, otherwise it would be ignored because there are so many powerful or required feats to choose from.
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Arguably, but my suggestion wasn't an attempt to address balance between classes, and people who care about adjusting that are probably playing with their own fixes already. Besides, if the vigilante talents turn out to be so effective that offering them as feats creates a massive paradigm shift of that sort, the rule will punish anybody who takes a normal feat.
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So the vigalanteed alchemist would be like the Hulk. The mutagen effect would keep recurring when he gets angry or frustrated? Banner could make bombs and extracts. The Hulk could smash.
Scrying wouldn't work because you are looking for the Hulk while Banner's joined the Peace Corp. You are not scrying for Banner.
They made an alchemist that replaces bombs with mutigens to turn himself into Hulk/Mr.Hyde. Its in the new book with Vigilantes forget the name