Kineticist Blasting


Rules Questions


I don't have all the salient rule pieces because the character in question is not mine.

However, it has come to my groups attention that our kineticist is doing an incredible amount of damage (more single target damage than anyone else in the party if both attacks hit) and we are interested in whether or not we have missed something.

The character is 16th level with his first two elements being aether. He currently uses physical blasts and has two attacks around. 1 blast is quickened maximized and the other is a maximized empowered and he's dealing around 150 points of damage if both blasts hit. If he scores a critical hit around 200 points of damage. he does have to stand still so he can negate the burn penalties (or something like that) in order to pull this off.

Does this seem correct? Is there something we've missed.

I'm not well versed on the rules from Occult Adventures and just want to double check that this is reasonable and we haven't messed up a rule.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That amount of damage sounds about right for that level. For many characters (not just kineticists), I would even consider that moderate damage at that level. It's entirely possible to do far more than that without much fuss.

Kineticists can only take a certain amount of burn each round, as determined by their class level. At 16th-level, your friend cannot choose to take more than 5 points of burn in a single round, or more than 3 + his Constitution modifier total in a single day (though he can be forced to accept more burn from a source outside his control, such as when getting attacked while gathering power).

A quickened maximized blast causes 5 burn (more if he uses a composite blast, or applies form infusions or substance infusions towards it). A maximized empowered blast causes 3 burn. Those 8 points are more than he can typically accept in a single round, and he would run out of his total daily allotment in short order. However, he also has tons of class abilities which will allow him to mitigate those points of burn.

At that level he can outright ignore up to 4 points of burn from infusions (which, you haven't stated he is even using). By gathering power as a move action, he can ignore an additional 2 points on any of his blasts (whether or not he applies any infusions). He also has a 3-point buffer which he can use each day to pay for burn; essentially allowing him to knock off a point here or a point there, or all three at once.

So those 8 points of burn? We've knocked it down to 6, which is still too much for him in a single round. He can knock it down to 3 with his internal buffer, making it possible, but he'd only be able to do that once per day.

So yeah, track that burn properly. If you don't, he can and will get away with doing too much.


So why do people complain so hard about the kineticist?

The character single handily and easily does more damage than any individual in the rest of the party.

Admittedly, his damage kind of sucked until he got the ability to do a second quickened blast, but since then he has been equal to or greater than anyone else in dealing damage.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I edited my post above. There do seem to be a few problems with his strategy.


What are your other damage dealing characters? We could theory craft you up 16th level versions of them that can do comparable or better damage.

It may be possible that your party doesn't have level appropriate gear. By level 16, they should have +5 to +7 weapons, depending on if you have access to a crafter.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If your friend weren't a double aether kineticist, he would have actually averaged more damage for less burn if he used a composite quickened empowered blast, then a composite empowered blast.


Yea ask the player how much burn he takes per each blast for that quicked+maximized and maximized+empowered tactic. There might be something wrong with his burn reduction calculations if he does that tactic more than a few times a day.


Ravingdork wrote:

That amount of damage sounds about right for that level. For many characters (not just kineticists), I would even consider that moderate damage at that level. It's entirely possible to do far more than that without much fuss.

Kineticists can only take a certain amount of burn each round, as determined by their class level. At 16th-level, your friend cannot choose to take more than 5 points of burn in a single round, or more than 3 + his Constitution modifier total in a single day (though he can be forced to accept more burn from a source outside his control, such as when getting attacked while gathering power).

A quickened maximized blast causes 5 burn (more if he uses a composite blast, or applies form infusions or substance infusions towards it). A maximized empowered blast causes 3 burn. Those 8 points are more than he can typically accept in a single round, and he would run out of his total daily allotment in short order. However, he also has tons of class abilities which will allow him to mitigate those points of burn.

At that level he can outright ignore up to 4 points of burn from infusions (which, you haven't stated he is even using). By gathering power as a move action, he can ignore an additional 2 points on any of his blasts (whether or not he applies any infusions). He also has a 3-point buffer which he can use each day to pay for burn; essentially allowing him to knock off a point here or a point there, or all three at once.

So those 8 points of burn? We've knocked it down to 6, which is still too much for him in a single round. He can knock it down to 3 with his internal buffer, making it possible, but he'd only be able to do that once per day.

So yeah, track that burn properly. If you don't, he can and will get away with doing too much.

I think I may have figured out the issue now that you've provided some more information.

I think he may be applying the ability to negate burn per blast, and not per round.


Ravingdork wrote:
He can knock it down to 3 with his internal buffer, making it possible, but he'd only be able to do that once per day.

At level 15, you should be able to accept 5 points of burn a round. So, you'd be able to do it 3 times a day by using only 1 point from the internal buffer each round.


Melkiador wrote:

What are your other damage dealing characters? We could theory craft you up 16th level versions of them that can do comparable or better damage.

It may be possible that your party doesn't have level appropriate gear. By level 16, they should have +5 to +7 weapons, depending on if you have access to a crafter.

We are using Automatic Bonus Progression with 1/2 WBL.

I am playing an Archer Inquisitor. My character could probably out damage him if I went balls deep (Judgment, Divine Power, Greater Bane) but I rarely do so. Mostly because I deal the second most damage and I don't want to show others up too much.

We also have an Empiricist(?) Investigator, who mostly uses polymorph extracts to transform into things with lots of natural attacks and deal damage that way.

We have an Unchained Monk, the character's damage lacks in part because the player doesn't have high system mastery. We have given advice, but don't want to be too controlling of their character. They also realized they haven't been using a large part of their WBL to buy gear for several levels, so hopefully some new gear can really help here.

We also have a winter witch/witch, but obviously damage isn't the focus here.


Claxon wrote:

I think I may have figured out the issue now that you've provided some more information.

I think he may be applying the ability to negate burn per blast, and not per round.

Do you mean he was using gather power to reduce burn cost for all blasts in a round, rather than just the next blast after gather power?

Designer

Ravingdork wrote:
If your friend weren't a double aether kineticist, he would have actually averaged more damage for less burn if he used a composite quickened empowered blast, then a composite empowered blast.

This is true. If he has Weapon Finesse and is willing to be close to a monster, he can probably do even more damage for less burn with Quickened Ride the Blast + Empowered Kinetic Whip (or Blade), which is 3 burn total (could be as low as 1 burn taken if using internal buffer, and I suppose he might have a big buffer if he's a halfling) instead of 8. Optionally he can empower the quickened ranged attack in that combo for another burn. Next level, he gets a more efficient version of his current combo using the twice metakinesis (since he will still get two blasts for 1 more burn than quicken but only have to pay for powerups like empower and maximize once, so he could have them both maximized and empowered for 1 less burn than he's currently maximizing one and max/empowering the other).

That all said, you're definitely right that he went utility over damage with aether (it's still a very good choice, granted). If he was another element (say earth/earth), the above combo with a composite blast would do...a lot of damage. I've done it before at 13th by using internal buffer (it's easier to pull off at 16th because of composite specialization). Even the 150 listed in the OP is probably rounded down to the nearest clean number (I'm looking at something around 175 if both hit, though could be more depending on party buffs to damage). With a more damaging element like earth/earth, we're looking at roughly 135 damage on a single hit from just the composite empowered blast in your suggested combo RD, and that costs no burn at all after gather! (add a quickened version of the same for max burn + buffer and do 270 damage...but not more than maybe twice a day)


Protoman wrote:
Claxon wrote:

I think I may have figured out the issue now that you've provided some more information.

I think he may be applying the ability to negate burn per blast, and not per round.

Do you mean he was using gather power to reduce burn cost for all blasts in a round, rather than just the next blast after gather power?

I believe so, but I haven't actually been watching him or doing the math.

We just all collectively thought that the damage output was a bit higher than expected.


Compared against most other archer characters at that level he is already behind. As other have stated at best he is taking chunks of burn each round to pull this off and that has both a hard cap on how much be can take and drops his "functional HP" every round. The GM should ask how much burn he is taking each round and track it separately if need be.

Designer

Claxon wrote:
Protoman wrote:
Claxon wrote:

I think I may have figured out the issue now that you've provided some more information.

I think he may be applying the ability to negate burn per blast, and not per round.

Do you mean he was using gather power to reduce burn cost for all blasts in a round, rather than just the next blast after gather power?

I believe so, but I haven't actually been watching him or doing the math.

We just all collectively thought that the damage output was a bit higher than expected.

Looks like he made some mistakes, but he's also playing the lowest damage (but high utility) combo. You should expect a kineticist of other elements than aether/aether/aether to do a smidge lower than 150 (see above math) for no burn at that level, and more with burn.


In addition to everything about the kineticist itself, your archer inquisitor should be out-damaging just about any ranged build, even more so when Greater Bane/Judgment/Spells enter the equation.
You have 16 rounds of Bane per day (more if you have the Bane Baldric or Extra Bane), which is plenty for just about every encounter.

It seems as if your group has a specific view on how much damage is "enough", seeing as how you don't have a pouncing barbarian or a charging cavalier or smiting paladin, etc., etc.

Designer

1 person marked this as a favorite.
bigrig107 wrote:

In addition to everything about the kineticist itself, your archer inquisitor should be out-damaging just about any ranged build, even more so when Greater Bane/Judgment/Spells enter the equation.

You have 16 rounds of Bane per day (more if you have the Bane Baldric or Extra Bane), which is plenty for just about every encounter.

It seems as if your group has a specific view on how much damage is "enough", seeing as how you don't have a pouncing barbarian or a charging cavalier or smiting paladin, etc., etc.

Inquisitors can definitely put out some great damage, as you indicate. All that said, his group's view of damage is not too strange compared to what you need to face CR-appropriate challenges; indeed, if the kineticist puts out 150 and then somebody else tops that damage (say 180), the two of them have just one-rounded a CR 19 boss encounter without the rest of the group, meaning they probably need to face significantly over-CRed challenges to have a multi-round fight. That said, I've found that to be common with my group as well, and you're absolutely right about the fact that the barbarian, cavalier, and paladin (egads, imagine adding aura of justice to Claxon's group!) do damage that is even more above the baseline by this level.

Personally, at high levels, I've found that each group's individual strengths and weaknesses have diverged so far from other groups that I need to design fights with my party in mind and possibly playtest fights against copies of my PCs that I control (for instance, my Jade Regent finale had roughly six foes [it also had some mook bards with heroic finale], three of which were CR 20+ and the PCs were level 15).


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think this is a case of the relatively even ceiling and high floor of the kineticist plus some possible errors within play/the character build.

Kineticists built to do lots of blast damage are super straight forward, and take almost no effort to optimize. The options for "moar boom boom" are obvious.

If a group looks at 150 damage from a primary damage dealer (remember the kineticist built in such a fashion isn't a mage, a skilled character or basically anything but a walking blast cannon) at 16th level and is shocked, probably isn't overly into optimization. I can average a heck of a lot more then that with basically any damage dealing class. As mentioned an archer inquisitor (a character who is only partially a damage dealer, partially a skilled character, and partially a divine caster) can out do that kind of damage or better.

The op even mentions he deliberately does not go 'all out' to avoid outshining everyone.

This is a case of a high floor issue with the kineticist. You have to put less effort into the kineticist to making him good at dealing damage then most character classes. Players who don't normally optimize much will just by default make a character good at damage (it has a high floor). Even if the character itself does good but not outstanding damage compared to optimized characters of a similar level. Add that to potential oversights on limiting factors (like using gather power improperly or not tracking burn correctly) and there really isn't an actual issue here, besides figuring out if a class that has a high floor is a good fit for your group.


I have a lv6 mostly paladin that can do about 100 damage on a full attack, ~150 if hasted. Granted he is melee, and would need to be smiting, which I can do 5 times per day, but I'm matching that damage output at lv6. So yeah, it's all about your table dynamics if 150 damage at mid teens is overpowered or really underpowered.


bigrig107 wrote:

In addition to everything about the kineticist itself, your archer inquisitor should be out-damaging just about any ranged build, even more so when Greater Bane/Judgment/Spells enter the equation.

You have 16 rounds of Bane per day (more if you have the Bane Baldric or Extra Bane), which is plenty for just about every encounter.

It seems as if your group has a specific view on how much damage is "enough", seeing as how you don't have a pouncing barbarian or a charging cavalier or smiting paladin, etc., etc.

Without Judgment, Bane, and Spells active my archer Inquisitor shouldn't be dealing more damage than any other archer, as those are the only common ways of adding damage on an Inquisitor. Judgment or Bane individually usually brings me up about to where a fighter would be in terms of damage in a round. Both Judgment and Bane together will push me above, and when I cast a buff spell it should put me very high up, even above the kineticist. I think I calculated it as somewhere around a 1d8+4d6+25 damage per arrow, which with divine power, manyshot, and rapid shot is 6 arrows per round which is about 270 damage if all arrows hit. I just usually choose not to go that route because I find it to be a bit unfair.

But yes, we have gotten out Pouncing Barbarians and Charging Cavalier builds done over the years and grown out of them. We've seen them. They're terribly effective. They make the game less fun for everyone else. Move along. Smiting Paladins are fine as they can't really keep that up all day.


Kolokotroni wrote:

I think this is a case of the relatively even ceiling and high floor of the kineticist plus some possible errors within play/the character build.

Kineticists built to do lots of blast damage are super straight forward, and take almost no effort to optimize. The options for "moar boom boom" are obvious.

If a group looks at 150 damage from a primary damage dealer (remember the kineticist built in such a fashion isn't a mage, a skilled character or basically anything but a walking blast cannon) at 16th level and is shocked, probably isn't overly into optimization. I can average a heck of a lot more then that with basically any damage dealing class. As mentioned an archer inquisitor (a character who is only partially a damage dealer, partially a skilled character, and partially a divine caster) can out do that kind of damage or better.

I think what this boils down to is that as a group we had heard lots about the kineticist being bad and terrible, and our play experience just wasn't matching that expectation so we were trying to figure out if there is a problem.

I think the answer is, maybe he is doing burn wrong but he could still probably be outputting similar/more damage than he is now even as an aether kineticist build.


The problem seems to be that your party is purposely keeping their power levels down and it's very difficult to "floor" a kineticist.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Melkiador wrote:
The problem seems to be that your party is purposely keeping their power levels down and it's very difficult to "floor" a kineticist.

I think this is a big part of this. Ignoring for a moment that your Kinny is using more burn than is legal, the kineticist has a very narrow optimization range to it. It's pretty simple to build a high damage kineticist because there aren't that many ways to boost damage and the most complicated choice is picking which damage enhancing effect (empower/maximize/quicken/double/boost/etc) is the best to apply first.

On the flip side, once you've made those choices there isn't a lot of room to make the kineticist better. There's a few niche combos that can add more to your DPR, but not much and they aren't that obscure or obtuse.

So the Kineticist sort of has the same problem as 3.5's TOB: Low-optimization groups find their high floor to be frustrating and the class is perceived as overpowered while high optimization groups find their relatively low ceiling to be frustrating and the class is perceived as particularly weak.

But you said yourself that one of your players doesn't have a lot of system mastery and you're intentionally holding your character back. Given those two I don't think it's surprising the kineticist is standing out.


Melkiador wrote:
The problem seems to be that your party is purposely keeping their power levels down and it's very difficult to "floor" a kineticist.

No, I'm keeping my power level down because the Investigator and Monk just couldn't keep up with the Kineticist and my Inquisitor if we went all out, mostly because of full attacks at range versus needing to move for melee.

They would get a single attack on enemies and then we would kill them. I feel it was unsatisfying for them.

The Investigator does alright when he transforms into something with pounce, but a bad roll or two and his damage really drops off.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Claxon wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
The problem seems to be that your party is purposely keeping their power levels down and it's very difficult to "floor" a kineticist.

No, I'm keeping my power level down because the Investigator and Monk just couldn't keep up with the Kineticist and my Inquisitor if we went all out, mostly because of full attacks at range versus needing to move for melee.

They would get a single attack on enemies and then we would kill them. I feel it was unsatisfying for them.

The Investigator does alright when he transforms into something with pounce, but a bad roll or two and his damage really drops off.

...see, you said no, but then you described yes...


The unchained monk has a pounce-like option. The investigator isn't really a "damage" class, though it can certainly do well at that past level 4.


The Mortonator wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
The problem seems to be that your party is purposely keeping their power levels down and it's very difficult to "floor" a kineticist.

No, I'm keeping my power level down because the Investigator and Monk just couldn't keep up with the Kineticist and my Inquisitor if we went all out, mostly because of full attacks at range versus needing to move for melee.

They would get a single attack on enemies and then we would kill them. I feel it was unsatisfying for them.

The Investigator does alright when he transforms into something with pounce, but a bad roll or two and his damage really drops off.

...see, you said no, but then you described yes...

I said no because I'm the only one pulling punches.

He said the party is keeping their power levels down which isn't true, only I am. And I'm fine with that, but I can see our GM getting frustrated with how much damage the kineticist can do. We are running Rise of the Runelords and the GM doesn't want to modify the combats too much because of the....difficulty for the monk and investigator.


Claxon wrote:

I said no because I'm the only one pulling punches.

He said the party is keeping their power levels down which isn't true, only I am. And I'm fine with that, but I can see our GM getting frustrated with how much damage the kineticist can do. We are running Rise of the Runelords and the GM doesn't want to modify the combats too much because of the....difficulty for the monk and investigator.

It's not really about pulling punches. Just about how optimized the builds are. It seems like the Monk and Investigator are not at the mid tier optimization point Kin tends to be at.


The Mortonator wrote:
Claxon wrote:

I said no because I'm the only one pulling punches.

He said the party is keeping their power levels down which isn't true, only I am. And I'm fine with that, but I can see our GM getting frustrated with how much damage the kineticist can do. We are running Rise of the Runelords and the GM doesn't want to modify the combats too much because of the....difficulty for the monk and investigator.

It's not really about pulling punches. Just about how optimized the builds are. It seems like the Monk and Investigator are not at the mid tier optimization point Kin tends to be at.

I think Kolokotroni is actually more spot on. The kineticist has a higher floor for damage optimization. There aren't a lot of options and the ones that exist are very obvious. Meanwhile, the floor for the monk and investigator are not as high so they need to work harder to optimize (for damage) to be competitive.

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.

When the Investigator rolls a skill check, do they intentionally apply a penalty so as not to outshine the other party members?

Not every class will perform equally in all roles. Some will simply be better at certain things than others.

Grand Lodge

Chess Pwn wrote:
I have a lv6 mostly paladin that can do about 100 damage on a full attack, ~150 if hasted. Granted he is melee, and would need to be smiting, which I can do 5 times per day, but I'm matching that damage output at lv6. So yeah, it's all about your table dynamics if 150 damage at mid teens is overpowered or really underpowered.

I'm sorry, but how can you do 50 damage per attack on a level 6 Paladin?? I'd think it's closer to around 25~27 damage per attack..?


Varun Creed wrote:
I'm sorry, but how can you do 50 damage per attack on a level 6 Paladin?? I'd think it's closer to around 25~27 damage per attack..?

Out of curiosity, using a greatsword:

+9 damage from 22 strength, assuming you maxed it and have a +2 belt
+2 from greatsword +2
+6 two handed power attack
+12 smite against specific evils
7 is the average damage of 2d12 for greatsword

So, that's 36 average with a max of 41. There could probably be other damage sources that I haven't considered.

Scarab Sages

Temple champion with the Rage Domain could add destructive smite, and range on that as. Not counting any buff spells you have up. Bless weapon to auto-confim crits and changing from a greatsword to a nodachi would increase the damage quite a bit.

Grand Lodge

Melkiador wrote:
Varun Creed wrote:
I'm sorry, but how can you do 50 damage per attack on a level 6 Paladin?? I'd think it's closer to around 25~27 damage per attack..?

Out of curiosity, using a greatsword:

+9 damage from 22 strength, assuming you maxed it and have a +2 belt
+2 from greatsword +2
+6 two handed power attack
+12 smite against specific evils
7 is the average damage of 2d6 for greatsword

So, that's 36 average with a max of 41. There could probably be other damage sources that I haven't considered.

Since I've got a lvl7 paladin, I am curious myself! Maybe I'm doing something wrong and missing damage but.. That smite damage is only on the first attack. After that it's only lvl*1 damage. So +6.

Edit: @Imbicatus, Destructive Smite costs a Standard Action before an attack to activate. Very incidental I'd think?


Str 20 +6 for anger id bloodrager = 8 *1.5=12
Smite 5
Power attack 6
Furious +1 nodachi = 3
Divine bond keen
So that's is only 36 damage per hit and crit often. So not a super consistent but with one crit and two hits I pull off 100 damage

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Kineticist Blasting All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.