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The corrections will be in the physical book. Since I'm at PaizoCon, I haven't sent out any physical copies yet. The book did pass through the print checks so there is a version approved, but we'll wait for Jolly's name to get fixed and the missing talents to get added.
Awesome, that's great news! For those of you who checked the guide, I'm sure at least persistent matter was an infusion you'd want to make sure made the cut. I'll be adding the rest of the archetypes to the guide either today or tomorrow, depending on how things go. Also shout out to Andras Zodon from the boards, who helped inspire the War Kineticist through a conversation about burn.
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I feel like I said this already, but in regards to Horticultural Animation (pg. 27), animate plants is from the Core Rulebook, not Mythic Adventures, unless it's supposed to emulate the mythic version of the spell, which seems unlikely.
Man, life has been too busy lately.
GDI, I'll see if I can get that edited before everything comes out, but if not, it's not a huge deal. It does make me interested in doing some mythic stuff for kineticists. I swore I'd never touch that system again after including it in the alchemist guide, but who knows, maybe this will be what draws me back.
I talked with a reader earlier today, and it seems I can add Mind to the list of elements that weren't considered likely. I'm hoping it'll be my last one, but with my situation, I'm not sure I'll ever be done making elements.
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Heh, Mind works for me, if I want to get in the Six Great Elements, would divide things into Earth/Viscera for Earth, Poison/Water for Water/Liquid, Air for Air/Wind, Void/Time (possibly with Dimension Ripper as default in the setting) for Space, and Dream/Mind for Consciousness. Covered a bit more in-depth here, since Earth also covers "head hair, body hair, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bone, organs, intestinal material, etc.", Viscera works pretty well. Though Aging goes under Fire...so might consider swapping Time there. Sound might go under Air, and Light under Consciousness, perhaps.
Though if you want some crazier possibilities, Samkhya has five subtle elements - Sound (Shabda), Touch (Sparsha), Form (Rupa), Taste (Rasa), and Smell (Gandha) - and five gross elements - Ether (Ākāsh), Air (Vāyu), Fire...
Don't doubt me, Luthorne. I've made almost as many elements as Paizo at this point, and there's still other concepts with which I've yet to experiment. There was at least 1 element during LK discussion that was cut due to lack of size (I didn't want a 90 talent mind and a 30 talent second element, it'd make it look trashy), but if/when I do another book for someone other than PDG (I really don't think KOP needs more elements), I might dust off the old 'watch anime until you have a good idea' boots and see if I can't find something new to manipulate.
I'd say I'm done with the kineticist for the moment, at least until Horror Adventures comes out.
Is this going to be the only kineticist book you're going to do with Legendary Games before going back to KOP? Kinda wish you'd done this with KOP, it'd be really nice to see mind combined with other elements like viscera :)
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Is this going to be the only kineticist book you're going to do with Legendary Games before going back to KOP? Kinda wish you'd done this with KOP, it'd be really nice to see mind combined with other elements like viscera :)
Presumably, yes. I think it depends what's in horror adventures though. If HA has enough things for me to really churn out the content, I may be able to put out a smaller LK2 along with KOP 4, but this goes against the thing I've said since completing KOP 2 that "the next kineticist book I release will be my last." Again, apologies to Malwing for kineticing up their list.
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Final edits in and back to layout. Should be available in wide release tomorrow afternoon!
Awesome, that's great news Jason! I can't wait to see the entire book put out. I've seriously been itching to make my dev post about it, since there's a lot of things that I want to talk about with this book, but I wanted to wait until it's wide released before doing so. LG's been super supportive of everything, and I really appreciate working with such passionate people (including obvious Team KOP)!
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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The files are in at Paizo, but evidently they were not able to be processed before folks went home for the weekend. I imagine it'll be up here sometime on Monday, but meanwhile you can grab it elsewhere if you like.
So just a couple of things. (Edit: oops, I went on a rant, sorry.)
First, what's the point of Dual Telekinetic Control? It doesn't change damage or do double damage, both objects hit the same target, and the objects both have to be in the same space which negates hitting somebody from two sides at once (not that this would give you any actual mechanical benefit.) Is it aimed at people using splash weapons or something? If so, is there some benefit to that over just using your basic blast? (Also hey Mark can we please get some clarification on telekinetic blast and whether you can use it on objects outside of your space?)
Second, and this isn't a complaint aimed at you specifically as much as it is about the class design in general, there are too many utility talents that feel like either taxes, or things that should already be included. I'm looking at Expanded Telepathy and Telekinetic Grasp specifically, but also basically any talent chain (featherweight, hivemind, mesmerizing suggestion, etc.) I've thought the same thing about a number of talents from other elements, too, as well as Greater Skilled Kineticist, which just, ugh.
With Expanded Telepathy, you literally have to have it to make several talents usable, but it doesn't really let you do anything new on it's own. Why not take a page from Basic Telekinesis and have the range automatically increase based on Extended/Extreme Range? Most builds will want at least one of those anyway, since they're prerequisites for other nice blast talents, so you're still sort of taxed but to a lesser degree. Likewise with Telekinetic Grasp; Foe Throw and Telekinetic Maneuvers both let you telekinetically affect creatures violently, so why do we need to lock the ability to affect creatures gently behind yet another talent (and a non-core one at that)? It should just be a gimme once you've got one of those. You're already going to need TK Haul to lift the creature anyway.
And as for talent chains, I don't mind them so much when there are huge or intensely game altering differences between the levels. I'm fine with Psychic Persuasion, Enslavement, and Eternal Domination being separate, or the Telepuppet talents, for instance, but is it really worth two talents to be able to apply Featherweight to others (especially at that level)? And the difference between Improved and Greater Hivemind seems too small to me; I get that a well coordinated party can use those to great effect, but that's two of your potential abilities tied up in a single largely passive package.
For the record, I really love every book you've put out, including this one. I'm just frustrated trying to build kineticists who can branch out and do multiple interesting things; when you expand your element, you should get a cool level appropriate ability, rather than have to take a first-level ability at level 16 and then wait until level 18 (or 20!) to get the ability you really wanted in the first place (unless you want to spend a feat to get it, but then you're just compounding the talent tax with a feat tax.) And sometimes I DO want a low-level ability because it's cool or flavorful (Mindlink, Aerial Adaptation), but it doesn't serve as a prereq for anything so it feels like I need to take a talent I don't like as much just so I'll be able to get useful level-appropriate talents later.
I might just want this class to be something it's not; I'm used to playing psions and sorcerers, so I think the limited options and oddly narrow abilities granted by talents are starting to frustrate me.
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Just came home, so give me some time to get to all of this, as I am only one omni heroic writer. And I don't mind the rant, feedback is always aces.
So just a couple of things. (Edit: oops, I went on a rant, sorry.)
First, what's the point of Dual Telekinetic Control? It doesn't change damage or do double damage, both objects hit the same target, and the objects both have to be in the same space which negates hitting somebody from two sides at once (not that this would give you any actual mechanical benefit.) Is it aimed at people using splash weapons or something? If so, is there some benefit to that over just using your basic blast? (Also hey Mark can we please get some clarification on telekinetic blast and whether you can use it on objects outside of your space?)
If Onyx wants to chime in here, this was something they wrote, but for me, I assumed it would be used with special materials to help get through 2 kinds of DR at once (metal based at least). That's the best I can offer on my end.
Second, and this isn't a complaint aimed at you specifically as much as it is about the class design in general, there are too many utility talents that feel like either taxes, or things that should already be included. I'm looking at Expanded Telepathy and Telekinetic Grasp specifically, but also basically any talent chain (featherweight, hivemind, mesmerizing suggestion, etc.) I've thought the same thing about a number of talents from other elements, too, as well as Greater Skilled Kineticist, which just, ugh.
I will admit that expanded telepathy and featherweight are a bit taxy, these were made to follow the design paradigm set forth in the base class, and expanded telepathy was more in case someone wanted to follow that route (some people don't.) Giving scaling telepathy with the basic utility talent would really make it a lot stronger than any other basic talent, which is why I went with this, but the featherweights could be combined. I will admit I could have combined some of the hiveminds, but there's no way I could have made them all 1 talent, so I think it would be fair to combine improved and greater.
With Expanded Telepathy, you literally have to have it to make several talents usable, but it doesn't really let you do anything new on it's own. Why not take a page from Basic Telekinesis and have the range automatically increase based on Extended/Extreme Range? Most builds will want at least one of those anyway, since they're prerequisites for other nice blast talents, so you're still sort of taxed but to a lesser degree. Likewise with Telekinetic Grasp; Foe Throw and Telekinetic Maneuvers both let you telekinetically affect creatures violently, so why do we need to lock the ability to affect creatures gently behind yet another talent (and a non-core one at that)? It should just be a gimme once you've got one of those. You're already going to need TK Haul to lift the creature anyway.
This I answered earlier, and that's to avoid making a basic talent that's too strong. Even 5 ft of telepathy is really good, so a base talent with scaling (something few base talents even have in the first place) would be a bit too much. I will admit that having interaction with extended/extreme would have been a good compromise, I'm willing to write a little something to make that work, although I can't really issue a text errata at the moment.
As for the Paizo ones, I can't say anything there, although grasp was made mostly to give the chance to affect others. Making it a feat wouldn't have even been a ton better here, but I think core design was a tad conservative on things.
And as for talent chains, I don't mind them so much when there are huge or intensely game altering differences between the levels. I'm fine with Psychic Persuasion, Enslavement, and Eternal Domination being separate, or the Telepuppet talents, for instance, but is it really worth two talents to be able to apply Featherweight to others (especially at that level)? And the difference between Improved and Greater Hivemind seems too small to me; I get that a well coordinated party can use those to great effect, but that's two of your potential abilities tied up in a single largely passive package.
Featherweight probably should have been one talent, I will admit to that. Greater hivemind was just an idea, and personally I could see skipping it pretty easily. The thing is that like you mentioned it's something that could be used dangerously with the right set up, and while I don't like designing around that, it's something I had to consider with something like this as a cavalier/inquisitor/neurokineticist could straight up beast an encounter.
For the record, I really love every book you've put out, including this one. I'm just frustrated trying to build kineticists who can branch out and do multiple interesting things; when you expand your element, you should get a cool level appropriate ability, rather than have to take a first-level ability at level 16 and then wait until level 18 (or 20!) to get the ability you really wanted in the first place (unless you want to spend a feat to get it, but then you're just compounding the talent tax with a feat tax.) And sometimes I DO want a low-level ability because it's cool or flavorful (Mindlink, Aerial Adaptation), but it doesn't serve as a prereq for anything so it feels like I need to take a talent I don't like as much just so I'll be able to get useful level-appropriate talents later.
I might just want this class to be something it's not; I'm used to playing psions and sorcerers, so I think the limited options and oddly narrow abilities granted by talents are starting to frustrate me.
I get that you don't, and I appreciate the critical analysis of my stuff, it does help me realize where I can improve. Also I entirely agree that new elements shouldn't have the -4 level thing. You'll notice that in KOP 3, mutations were kind of my backdoor to trying to subvert some of these rules. If enough people are interested, I'd be willing to do a rebuild of the class that shows how I would design it myself, something quick and dirty that would help solve these issues. But as I've said before, the initial start to that is to give brutal mutation for free without a side effect.
I feel you here, I want the class to feel more dynamic too, and if this were a KOP book, I would be coming out with more mutations. But I am taking your feedback into consideration for KOP 4 so I can design more mutations that will help alleviate these issues as much as possible so that this class can be as fun as possible.
For tweaks on the book, I'd say the following
-Featherweight becomes improved featherweight at 8th level
-Fold together improved and greater hivemind
-Treat Extended Range as Expanded Telepathy
-Just take Gravity Sculptor, it's the best damn talent in the book.
If/when we do another edit run on the book, I will be changing these, but I can't say that would be anytime soon, so consider the following changes authorial intent until that time. Feel free to rant here whenever, as I know there's still a lot that can be discussed both about this book and the class itself. Thanks for your thoughts!
Honestly it's Saturday, so I don't expect quick responses because I kind of hope people who aren't stuck at work like me are out doing fun things instead of haunting forums.
So first, while I appreciate the changes, don't take my frustration as immediate cause to change things; whoever reviewed LK in the guide rated some things (like Improved and Greater Hivemind) pretty high, so there might be some worth to the way they are now. I don't get to play nearly as much as most people on these boards, so my experience is more limited and might should be taken with some salt. (Also I was stuck at work all day and somewhat bitter about it, which I think I channeled into my post.) That said, I do think the changes you've listed look good, and kind of wish more talents had interactive effects like the Extended Range/Basic TK thing (I could have sworn some of the core fire talents interacted with each other too, but if so I don't see them.)
Also, I'm less bothered by the -4 to level with expanded elements than I am by the fact that most mid-to-high level utility talents need low level talents as prerequisites; it often means you either have to "waste" a feat to get the early-level talent, or (for instance) take the 1st-level utility talent at 16th level and then wait until 18th level to take the 3rd- or 5th-level one you actually wanted. Compounding the -4 level with the need for prereqs just makes it all worse.
I've noticed you've mentioned some of your own thoughts on ways the class could be improved a few times throughout the umptillion kineticist threads we've had, and I have noticed and really like a lot of the things you've done to try to address that (mutations, talents that cover holes, etc.) I know it's hard to make serious changes when you're dealing with an already-established class, especially one that's relatively new and controversial, but the stuff you've put out has added a ton of utility and interest to the class, and I appreciate all the work you've put into this stuff.
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Honestly it's Saturday, so I don't expect quick responses because I kind of hope people who aren't stuck at work like me are out doing fun things instead of haunting forums.
I was just out with some friends talking about stuff that's dumb, or as I like to call it, a good saturday.
So first, while I appreciate the changes, don't take my frustration as immediate cause to change things; whoever reviewed LK in the guide rated some things (like Improved and Greater Hivemind) pretty high, so there might be some worth to the way they are now. I don't get to play nearly as much as most people on these boards, so my experience is more limited and might should be taken with some salt. (Also I was stuck at work all day and somewhat bitter about it, which I think I channeled into my post.) That said, I do think the changes you've listed look good, and kind of wish more talents had interactive effects like the Extended Range/Basic TK thing (I could have sworn some of the core fire talents interacted with each other too, but if so I don't see them.)
I wasn't just taking your annoyance into account, as some of those were changes that I had been iffy on when making the book. Part of it came from my desire to have some red. And I was the reviewer for the book (reviewing one's own things feels weird, but I really get into a different mindset when doing guide reviews), and that's why Improved/Greater HM were reviewed highly (great synergy).
I'll agree that I probably could have given more synergy to that, I thank Mark S. for the precedent with things like that, and it's something I should be using.
Also, I'm less bothered by the -4 to level with expanded elements than I am by the fact that most mid-to-high level utility talents need low level talents as prerequisites; it often means you either have to "waste" a feat to get the early-level talent, or (for instance) take the 1st-level utility talent at 16th level and then wait until 18th level to take the 3rd- or 5th-level one you actually wanted. Compounding the -4 level with the need for prereqs just makes it all worse.
It is a little annoying, and I myself have issues with both Extra Wild Talent and especially expanded element have this clause. For me, thematically some of them make sense, but others are mechanically difficult to swallow, so I have to look at it as both a designer and player, which are two VERY different hats.
I've noticed you've mentioned some of your own thoughts on ways the class could be improved a few times throughout the umptillion kineticist threads we've had, and I have noticed and really like a lot of the things you've done to try to address that (mutations, talents that cover holes, etc.) I know it's hard to make serious changes when you're dealing with an already-established class, especially one that's relatively new and controversial, but the stuff you've put out has added a ton of utility and interest to the class, and I appreciate all the work you've put into this stuff.
I appreciate the vote of confidence for what I've already done. I'd joke that War Kineticist is another hole filler, and perhaps eventually I'll make an "Ehn's Kineticist" that everyone can check out. The plan for that would be something that's still compatible with everything else, just my own personal rebuild with input from the team.
If you get the chance, feel free to give a review for Legendary Kineticists if you get the chance, as I'm hoping to learn what I can do to make KOP 4 an even better book.
I wasn't just taking your annoyance into account, as some of those were changes that I had been iffy on when making the book. Part of it came from my desire to have some red.
This is something I'm actually pretty curious about. As the author the work, and as someone who can (and has) introduced errata/fixes as things have progressed, what makes you decide to tweak or not tweak a talent that you end up thinking deserves a red rating?
In some cases, I guess the answer's obvious: (a) because it's a great ability to have NPCs be able to take, even though it sucks for PCs, or (b) it's a great thematic ability that should be there, but is hard to make better in any straightforward way, or (c) it's a very nice ability in very specific circumstances (e.g., underwater adventures), and it's hard to see how to generalize it to a wider variety of circumstances without making it too powerful or too complicated.
But in some cases it seems the complaints that are made about a talent in the guide would be relatively straightforward to fix. E.g., I take it the main complaints about Past Recollection or Fade Into Mist are their burn costs. So what makes you decide to change or not change things like that?
(Just to be clear: this is not intended to be in any way critical. I'm just curious about what your decision-making process is like!)
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I wasn't just taking your annoyance into account, as some of those were changes that I had been iffy on when making the book. Part of it came from my desire to have some red.This is something I'm actually pretty curious about. As the author the work, and as someone who can (and has) introduced errata/fixes as things have progressed, what makes you decide to tweak or not tweak a talent that you end up thinking deserves a red rating?
In some cases, I guess the answer's obvious: (a) because it's a great ability to have NPCs be able to take, even though it sucks for PCs, or (b) it's a great thematic ability that should be there, but is hard to make better in any straightforward way, or (c) it's a very nice ability in very specific circumstances (e.g., underwater adventures), and it's hard to see how to generalize it to a wider variety of circumstances without making it too powerful or too complicated.
But in some cases it seems the complaints that are made about a talent in the guide would be relatively straightforward to fix. E.g., I take it the main complaints about Past Recollection or Fade Into Mist are their burn costs. So what makes you decide to change or not change things like that?
(Just to be clear: this is not intended to be in any way critical. I'm just curious about what your decision-making process is like!)
This is a totally fair question, and it's one that I as a guide writer am particularly interested to answer.
See, I don't think normal writers consider the 'ranking' scale of abilities when they make things. This isn't good or bad, this just isn't something they take into account. As a guide writer myself, I do think of it in these terms, and sometimes I'll write something and say "Yeah, that's blue" or "This will probably end up orange."
The thing is for some talents is there's no middle ground that for which I'm happy. Take Fade into the Mist; at 0 burn I think it would be too good. Maybe not 'purple' too good, but too good for the class in a way that of which I'm not comfortable including. Same for Past Recollection. I'll admit PR probably could have been edited in some way that I didn't see at first, but my point stands there.
I've actually talked about this with Mark in the Mastering the Elements thread about the importance of including red options. I don't see them as 'trap' options myself, since as you said NPCs need abilities too (smooth negotiator is really an NPC ability to me to help fill story gaps, especially compared to psychic persuasion) but theme is also a large part of why some red options aren't buffed. I don't think I put out enough red for that to be considered a defense of poor work on my part.
It's hard once you get into the meta concept of ratings with abilities, but I do try my best to keep as many things relevant as I can. But that's just something that comes with the territory, I suppose.
It's actually interesting how much reviewing things helps me realize mistakes I've made with it. There's quite a few talents that I saw while reviewing that didn't work the way that I had intended, and so I had to change them. Things like that are interesting to see how my mind shifts gears from writer to reviewer.
Just came home, so give me some time to get to all of this, as I am only one omni heroic writer. And I don't mind the rant, feedback is always aces.
If Onyx wants to chime in here, this was something they wrote, but for me, I assumed it would be used with special materials to help get through 2 kinds of DR at once (metal based at least). That's the best I can offer on my end.So just a couple of things. (Edit: oops, I went on a rant, sorry.)
First, what's the point of Dual Telekinetic Control? It doesn't change damage or do double damage, both objects hit the same target, and the objects both have to be in the same space which negates hitting somebody from two sides at once (not that this would give you any actual mechanical benefit.) Is it aimed at people using splash weapons or something? If so, is there some benefit to that over just using your basic blast? (Also hey Mark can we please get some clarification on telekinetic blast and whether you can use it on objects outside of your space?)
I was looking at it from a grade school chemistry point of view. Get two substances that are benign apart but insanely reactive together, then throw them both at the enemy, allowing them to touch just as you unleash the aetheric tethers. Admittedly I'd put it orange myself, if not red, I just thought it was a cool little trick that could have lead to cooler tricks but ultimately never did.
Along the lines of Dual TK Control, another talent we're missing is one that lets you telekinetically pick up more than one thing at once, so you can eat with a knife and a fork but no hands! Or pick up a pile of books instead of one books at a time. Or whatever. Something like the mythic version of Telekinesis, or Divided Mind from Spheres of Power.
(Why am I adding more options to my already too-long list of must-have talents?)
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Along the lines of Dual TK Control, another talent we're missing is one that lets you telekinetically pick up more than one thing at once, so you can eat with a knife and a fork but no hands! Or pick up a pile of books instead of one books at a time. Or whatever. Something like the mythic version of Telekinesis, or Divided Mind from Spheres of Power.
(Why am I adding more options to my already too-long list of must-have talents?)
If I'm being honest, when I read over dual TK control, that's actually what I thought it did. I might do a small rewrite of it later (since I can't mess with the book at the moment sadly) to help those following the thread.
As for the other things, I'm sure at some point I'll end up doing some mythic content for the kineticist. It'd be cool if I could just squeeze out some quick ideas in a Mythic Mini or something to that effect, although I haven't thought about getting on that just yet.
As for other news on the Ehnside of things, the Shinobi's basically done on Team KOP's part. I'm thinking of including the FAQ link we wrote with it, and it'll be a part of what's being put out soon. I have some more ideas for things, and I want to work on ideas that I think will jive with Starfinder, as you can expect to see me supporting that too!
interesting stuff
I see; that makes sense. Thanks for indulging my curiosity!
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interesting stuffI see; that makes sense. Thanks for indulging my curiosity!
No problem, if you have any more questions, feel free to ask them here (or if they're non-product specific, here in my dead AMA thread.)
Also, looks like Legendary Kineticists is live on Paizo!
I'm going to chill for a bit and then do my dev post about the book. Also if we can get 5 or more reviews, I'll try and do my personal redesign of the class and post it somewhere for everyone to check out. Maybe I'll actually use my blog for that, but I can promise it'll be worth it.
Again, thanks to all of Team KOP and Legendary Games for helping to put this out, I seriously think this is one of the best things I've ever written!
Am I missing something? I thought the Shinobi was suppose to be in Legendary Kineticists?
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Am I missing something? I thought the Shinobi was suppose to be in Legendary Kineticists?
You're not, let me explain. So originally the first post here was meant to be advertising 3 products; LK: Mind, LK: Additional Options, and LK: Shinobi. The thing was that Jason N. and I danced around for a few days on if LK:M and LK:AO should be 1 or 2 books. After a lovely waltz, we both looked into each other's eyes and said in a heroic tone "One book."
By the time I made the first post, (Kinetic) Shinobi was always planned as a hybrid class separate book. I can understand why after the first two were merged that it seemed like all 3 were going to be in the same book, but sadly that isn't the case.
Although the reason for that now would be that if it were, the book would be twice as large, as right now the (Kinetic) Shinobi is about as large as all of Legendary Kineticists with a truckton of archetypes, talents, and all sorts of other things that make for an awesome class. Sorry if it felt misleading, that wasn't my intent. It's sort of the issue with making a post like that before everything was 100%, but we wanted to get everything out before Paizocon (mission accomplished!), so there was a lot of back and forth on that end.
As an aside, if anyone wants to see my dev post for Legendary Kineticists, it's right here. A bit of interesting commentary, seeing how much Onyx actually wrote (spoiler: a pretty sizeable amount), and just little fun things that happened during development of the class itself.
I feel really dumb for asking this only now, but. What's the range and action required to use haphephobia (pg. 29)? Standard action and thirty feet? It says targets, so it's probably not single target...but how many can it affect at once?
I also presume, for telepuppet, active (pg. 34), it's supposed to be standard or full-round action, not standard for full round action?
I'm also reasonably certain that slumber infusion is not restricted to 4 HD creatures and instead they can just be woken up in the same manner as listed in the sleep spell.
Though I am pretty tired so maybe I'm missing obvious things.
...you know the range and number of creatures affected would have been VERY useful things to include in hindsight.
I'd make haphephobia touch range (with the initial touch not triggering it), and the effect can be up on multiple creatures but you have to target them individually. Since no action type is listed it can be assumed to be a standard action.
Yeah, active telepuppet should be standard OR full-round. Rather than going comatose, you should be allowed to take move, swift, free, and immediate actions.
Slumber infusion should affect more than 4 HD worth of creatures. It simply puts them all to sleep such that it takes a slap or injury to wake them. Considering it's 6th level, I can't imagine keeping the 4 HD limit intact.
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I feel really dumb for asking this only now, but. What's the range and action required to use haphephobia (pg. 29)? Standard action and thirty feet? It says targets, so it's probably not single target...but how many can it affect at once?
I also presume, for telepuppet, active (pg. 34), it's supposed to be standard or full-round action, not standard for full round action?
I'm also reasonably certain that slumber infusion is not restricted to 4 HD creatures and instead they can just be woken up in the same manner as listed in the sleep spell.
Though I am pretty tired so maybe I'm missing obvious things.
I'll chime in here myself for some of these.
One thing I love that Mark S. did with this class is the 'if it doesn't have a range, it's assumed X range.' So by rules, yeah, it'd be standard/30 ft., although Onyx's word trumps mine there.
And yeah, an extra f snuck its way into active telepuppet, standard or full round is correct.
Slumber infusion works as the sleep spell for the effect it has on others. The reason being is because we couldn't say unconscious due to that being a specific status condition of having below 0 HP, although I should have included the lack of HD limit for it.
It's all minor things, but I'll probably put together a change doc just in case we ever get the chance to jump back inside and mess with it. I doubt it'll happen, but thankfully these aren't massively important changes.
Am I missing something? I thought the Shinobi was suppose to be in Legendary Kineticists?You're not, let me explain. So originally the first post here was meant to be advertising 3 products; LK: Mind, LK: Additional Options, and LK: Shinobi. The thing was that Jason N. and I danced around for a few days on if LK:M and LK:AO should be 1 or 2 books. After a lovely waltz, we both looked into each other's eyes and said in a heroic tone "One book."
By the time I made the first post, (Kinetic) Shinobi was always planned as a hybrid class separate book. I can understand why after the first two were merged that it seemed like all 3 were going to be in the same book, but sadly that isn't the case.
Although the reason for that now would be that if it were, the book would be twice as large, as right now the (Kinetic) Shinobi is about as large as all of Legendary Kineticists with a truckton of archetypes, talents, and all sorts of other things that make for an awesome class. Sorry if it felt misleading, that wasn't my intent. It's sort of the issue with making a post like that before everything was 100%, but we wanted to get everything out before Paizocon (mission accomplished!), so there was a lot of back and forth on that end.
As an aside, if anyone wants to see my dev post for Legendary Kineticists, it's right here. A bit of interesting commentary, seeing how much Onyx actually wrote (spoiler: a pretty sizeable amount), and just little fun things that happened during development of the class itself.
Ah I see, I mistook the first post as advertising 3 topics in the same product. c'est la vie. I look foreword to the Shinobi's eventual release. I'm also intrigued by the passing mention of vigilante content hinted at.
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Ah I see, I mistook the first post as advertising 3 topics in the same product. c'est la vie. I look foreword to the Shinobi's eventual release. I'm also intrigued by the passing mention of vigilante content hinted at.
Originally, you would have been correct, since the Kinetic Shinobi was a planned archetype for the unchained ninja that grew into its own hybrid class.
The Kinetic Shinobi is a lot closer to completion than most would expect, I'd expect to see it pretty soon. Depending on how things go, we should be posting a sample character here later, possibly one with the arsenal sniper (my favorite archetype) applied to it. As talked about before, the arsenal sniper is the weapon wielder of the pack, giving more of a 'gun fu' feel to the class.
As you learn about me, I'm a sucker for stylized combat in any respect, it's why I'm working on some very interesting gunslinger content that you may see soon enough.
if we can get 5 or more reviews, I'll try and do my personal redesign of the class and post it somewhere for everyone to check out. Maybe I'll actually use my blog for that, but I can promise it'll be worth it.
Somehow I missed this earlier. I can't seem to post a review on Paizo.com, though, maybe because I purchased it through the Legendary Games site? Y'all other folks need to step up so I can finally get this redesign I keep hearing about! Wait nevermind the link just showed up after refreshing. Weird. Review ahoy!
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Somehow I missed this earlier.I can't seem to post a review on Paizo.com, though, maybe because I purchased it through the Legendary Games site? Y'all other folks need to step up so I can finally get this redesign I keep hearing about!Wait nevermind the link just showed up after refreshing. Weird. Review ahoy!
From the email I received, anyone who picked it up on the LG website should have been sent a copy through Drivethru as well. Regardless, I appreciate any review, so thank you very much!
And I'm not a fan of reviewing things on Paizo since I've had WAY too many reviews eaten. I've started to save them before posting them here so I don't have to worry about losing anywhere between 20 mins to an hour of commentary.
Feel free to post it here, OBS, and OGS, as I'm counting any duplicate reviews like that as a half a review for the purposes of this. If we actually make it past 5, I'll probably offer another incentive since it'd be amazing to get this thing up to KOP 1's level of reviews. Technically, this puts us up to 2.5, since there was a duplicate review on OGS.
Also great news all, we're 7th on the top 10 download list for Paizo this week, not bad for coming out late monday. Here's hoping we can keep climbing and take all the top four slots!
And I'm not a fan of reviewing things on Paizo since I've had WAY too many reviews eaten. I've started to save them before posting them here so I don't have to worry about losing anywhere between 20 mins to an hour of commentary.
...Paizo ate my review. Which took me over an hour to write. And which I forgot to copy/save before hitting the button. I'm so angry. I'll come back to do it again later.
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...Paizo ate my review. Which took me over an hour to write. And which I forgot to copy/save before hitting the button. I'm so angry. I'll come back to do it again later.
And I'm not a fan of reviewing things on Paizo since I've had WAY too many reviews eaten. I've started to save them before posting them here so I don't have to worry about losing anywhere between 20 mins to an hour of commentary.
It's fine, take some time to cool down after that, it sucks losing any amount of text, let alone that much. I should make a post in the website section about why reviews get eaten, I feel like books other than LK have been victims of this, and it's always a damn shame. I appreciate the attempt all the same!
On a lot of websites with most browsers you can press back and you will still have the post completely written. It's saved to short term. Sometimes doesn't work. But I have rescued many tumblr asks and forum posts that way.
Yeah, I tried the back button, but it didn't work lol. It's okay, most of that time was spent refreshing my memory of those features in the book I hadn't paid as much attention to before (I don't care for the bloodrager, for instance, so I kind of just skipped that archetype), so writing it a second time should go faster. It's been so long since one of my posts got eaten that I forgot it could happen!
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So the review count (including cross posted reviews) is sitting at:
2 Paizo
1 C/P OGS
2 C/P OBS
So that effectively puts us at 3.5 reviews for the purpose of my rewrite. I've actually stepped it up here and also included a second document that includes the reason I made any changes I did, and personally I might go through editing it again if any of Team KOP wants to look through it first.
What I can say is for the most part, it is compatible with all archetypes I've written (except for war kineticist for obvious reasons), so if you use the Unchained kineticist, you'll be able to work it into your current builds just fine (although some archetype features will need to be moved into their new positions.
EDIT: Just received a new review through OBS, so that puts us up to 4.5! Just 1 more review until I post the unchained Kineticist.
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Posted, up on paizo :3
Awesome, that puts us up to 5.5 on the scale! And that means I have to head into my docs and pull out my unchained versions of the class.
And this is my explanations for each change I made.
I'd like it noted that for this rewrite, I did my best to keep the class as compatible with my previous content as possible. The only 'major' changes are the switching of internal buffer and expanded element, which should be easy enough to play around with archetypes involving them. Most of these should be changes for the better, although I'm willing to discuss thoughts and opinions on these, possibly make some changes if what I've written feels too off base.
What's the point of having battle burn and removing the damage from normal burn?
Weirdly, I'm actually disappointed by the removal of non-lethal damage from burn.
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Awesome!
While I *love* the redoing of Burn (which kept me away from the class for a while), I just wanted to make sure I understood. So, while you can only accept one pt /round, it still stacks for the purposes of Overflow?
Are there any negatives for accepting burn?
With Battle Burn, is it essentially a way to allow you to accept more than one pt of burn per round? As for using it with Utility powers, if the duration is the lesser of 5 min, or the original duration, what's the benefit, especially if you can already spend Burn 1/Rd normally?
So first of all, the amount of burn you can accept per round is the same, in that it increases at 6th level and every 3 levels thereafter. I should state that battle burn doesn't allow you to overcome that, so that'll be edited to make sense of everything.
As of the moment, there's no real flaw to taking burn in the same way that there's no flaw to using up one's ki pool or using any other resource in this fashion. It's a resource similar to any other at this point, which I think is fine. Honestly, I could set it up as a reverse burn pool, making it a normal resource that grants elemental overflow while it grows lower, which might be something I end up doing. That would make it less compatible with others though, so it's a bit of a hard decision.
For Battle Burn, what it does is allows you to accept more burn all day, as it's combat burn.
The benefit of it is say you've hit your burn limit that day, you can use a battle burn no matter what, so you always have that battle burn to play with each battle. Say I spent all my burn, but I still want to use suffocate. If I've used all my burn allotment for that day, I can still choke some people via battle burn, which is always nice.
What's the point of having battle burn and removing the damage from normal burn?
Weirdly, I'm actually disappointed by the removal of non-lethal damage from burn.
These were things I talked about in the change doc (second link), but I can talk a bit more here.
Battle burn is to give more in combat options. Really, it's just to have more versatility in battle, although to keep damage down, I could actually see limiting it to utility talents, since it does allow more empowered blast and such.
And I can actually see why you would be. It was something that made the class unique, but in the same way, it also hit the class's HP hard. This wasn't a decision I made lightly, and personally I could see coming back to this and possibly messing around with the fatigue mechanic to give it more of an edge, but this was just a first draft, which is why I'm fine with making edits on it as people give opinions.
At this point, I think I might have to give some kind of incentive to nab more reviews here, so I'll probably do something if we get 10, possibly some LK/KOP crossover stuff.
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I should be getting the Kinetic Shinobi into the layout pipe today, so we MIGHT have it ready for Friday, but more likely looking for a next-week release.
Awesome, I can't wait to see it come out, the cover art already looks incredible, and I think the massive amount of options for this class is really going to open up some doors here for people who want to play a more 'agile' kineticist styled character.
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Yo, we went from 7th to 2nd in the Paizo weekly top ten, great jump here! Here's hoping we manage to take 1st next week.
Also probably gonna leave up the unchained version of the kineticist for another week before taking it down, so feel free to copy it. I'll probably work on it more, include it in something else that I write later for the non board savvy members of those who check out my work.
Weird I was sure I replied to this.
These were things I talked about in the change doc (second link), but I can talk a bit more here.
Oh I did read that actually.
Battle burn is to give more in combat options. Really, it's just to have more versatility in battle, although to keep damage down, I could actually see limiting it to utility talents, since it does allow more empowered blast and such.
Limiting it to utility talents would be for the best in my mind, right now I don't see much reason for it rather than just increasing the amount of burn a kineticist can take.
And I can actually see why you would be. It was something that made the class unique, but in the same way, it also hit the class's HP hard. This wasn't a decision I made lightly, and personally I could see coming back to this and possibly messing around with the fatigue mechanic to give it more of an edge, but this was just a first draft, which is why I'm fine with making edits on it as people give opinions.
I mean, turning burn into just "mana pool #13" doesn't really seem interesting. May as well remove the scaling from elemental overflow at that point and just make it static since it stops representing the uncontrolled energy leaking out of you. My personal method of modifying burn is "no limit on how much can be taken, but.... your losing health" + gain the benefits of the toughness feat except that additional hit-points are based on class level rather than HD, and it stacks with toughness, gives the kineticists the benefits of HD d10 if going by average (though you lose a tiny bit with the first HD of course) without having to worry about giving them Full BAB.
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Limiting it to utility talents would be for the best in my mind, right now I don't see much reason for it rather than just increasing the amount of burn a kineticist can take.
The reason it can also be used for infusions is to give a bit more of a kick to what they can do in combat. It can help give an empowered blast or other things without needing gather energy, making it a helpful tool for sniping and such. I could see limiting to just UWT, but I think letting it be used on both is pretty helpful.
I mean, turning burn into just "mana pool #13" doesn't really seem interesting. May as well remove the scaling from elemental overflow at that point and just make it static since it stops representing the uncontrolled energy leaking out of you. My personal method of modifying burn is "no limit on how much can be taken, but.... your losing health" + gain the benefits of the toughness feat except that additional hit-points are based on class level rather than HD, and it stacks with toughness, gives the kineticists the benefits of HD d10 if going by average (though you lose a tiny bit with the first HD of course) without having to worry about giving them Full BAB.
Burn is...it's complicated. Like you can see that I didn't want to give the class a d10 hit die since I felt like that detracted too much from the focus as well as skewed their damage too high (overflow + full BAB = physical blast master race).
At the same time, burn being a semi permanent drain (basically unrecoverable) is just not what I want from the class. I know that the way I have things skews the balance even further in favor of aether/earth, but to be fair, most defenses are already skewed towards that.
I think this will probably be an idea I revisit later on down the line, getting more input from the team (this was done solo), see if we can't all agree on things, but personally, I'm pretty happy with it. I can see wanting to have burn still play a more important part, although if I did that, I'd probably try to make it work more like the cerebral kineticist from KOP 1, where burn isn't direct HP damage, but instead involved some kinds of penalties for over indulging in it.
I'm not sure I really agree with the switch for gaining a new element a level earlier, it seems a little clunky. The idea of changing burn around though does seem interesting.