Occultist Implements & Resonant powers


Rules Questions

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Well, interesting.

According to Herolabs you CAN'T double down on Transmutation at first level.

I haven't explored how leveling works with it. But at least at first level, you are correct.

My bad. :-)


Sillystring, do you accept that if you select an implement school twice, that you must choose two implements, one for each time you have selected the school?


captain yesterday wrote:

Well, interesting.

According to Herolabs you CAN'T double down on Transmutation at first level.

I haven't explored how leveling works with it. But at least at first level, you are correct.

My bad. :-)

hero labs is not a rules source.


It's just as relevant as your opinion.

Except Paizo uses it. :-)


dragonhunterq wrote:
Sillystring, do you accept that if you select an implement school twice, that you must choose two implements, one for each time you have selected the school?

Yes, of course, that's RAW, at least unless i'm overlooking something.

As i say, the only thing i'd like to know is whether the source of the resonant power for the player is the implement or the implement school (as the quotes ive posted most recently indicate that the implement's school is the source of the powers gained by the implement.)

Does the player count the source as the implement, or the original source of the power?

---

PS: Interesting that hero labs uses my understanding, its nowhere near firm enough for me to consider using it as evidence for my understanding though...


I leveled up an Occultist. Same results. Only one ability enhancement for transmutation.

Until an official source pipes up I believe you are correct.


captain yesterday wrote:

I leveled up an Occultist. Same results. Only one ability enhancement for transmutation.

Until an official source pipes up I believe you are correct.

Ive never gone from someone thinking im 100% wrong to 100% correct before so quickly. Usually it takes a while... but still, i'd like to get to the bottom of why that is, and i'm certainly not ruling out the possibility that that's a bug.


Paizo uses Herolabs for building NPCs. Why wouldn't it be just as relevant an opinion.


captain yesterday wrote:
Paizo uses Herolabs for building NPCs. Why wouldn't it be just as relevant an opinion.

Yeah, but i dont care about being right, i care about knowing WHY it goes one way or the other.

Though at least the paizo supported hero labs content might limit the "you are stupid for thinking that way" comments that keep cropping up. After all, I was only using the mentality of "when in doubt, dont assume the rules do you any favors".


SillyString wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

I leveled up an Occultist. Same results. Only one ability enhancement for transmutation.

Until an official source pipes up I believe you are correct.

Ive never gone from someone thinking im 100% wrong to 100% correct before so quickly. Usually it takes a while...

I believe in admitting when I was wrong. :-)


SillyString wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
Paizo uses Herolabs for building NPCs. Why wouldn't it be just as relevant an opinion.
Yeah, but i dont care about being right, i care about knowing WHY it goes one way or the other.

probably so you don't have Occultist's running around with an automatic +16 from spamming Transmutation. :-)


SillyString wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
Sillystring, do you accept that if you select an implement school twice, that you must choose two implements, one for each time you have selected the school?

Yes, of course, that's RAW, at least unless i'm overlooking something.

As i say, the only thing i'd like to know is whether the source of the resonant power for the player is the implement or the implement school (as the quotes ive posted most recently indicate that the implement's school is the source of the powers gained by the implement.)

Does the player count the source as the implement, or the original source of the power?

Ok then. We've probably been discussing the wrong ability. No wonder we weren't getting anywhere.

Mental focus is the relevant ability here.
Mental focus doesn't care about what school your implement is for. It just cares that it is an implement. You can invest focus in any of your implements. If your implement has focus invested in it it grants the resonant power. Everything else is a smoke screen.


SillyString wrote:

Oh, and one last thing:

Chess Pwn wrote:
it seems you either can not make basic inferences as to what is being discussed it OR you choose to ignore anything points brought up by our view and refuse to address said points, I'm not sure how much of a point there is trying to discuss this with you as you currently don't seem to be trying to actually discuss this.

Not to contradict you or anything, but my last post has a wonderful section making concessions to your point of view and moving on to the next logic question up for debate, i know this is the internet, but please try to remain civil and entertain the discussion accordingly. Though you seem to have overlooked that part in favor of your rant.

A refresher to get us back on track:

SillyString wrote:

Put simply following your interpretation of the rules we get to:

x= implement school, y1=implement 1, y2=implement 2, z=occultist
x is the source of the power, it gives it to y1 and y2, they in turn give it to the occultist.

What is up for debate here is whether or not we can gain it twice (one from each implement) because the implements BECOME the source, or we cannot because the implement school REMAINS the source.

Haha, very funny. Very nice to EDIT your post without saying you have and then blame someone for not addressing your edit.

z learns an x. z gains a base focus power from x. If he selects x again he gains the same base focus power from x. This does nothing for him as he can't do anything new with it. But now he has y1 and y2 from the same school. He's able to put in mental focus into both and both get their resonant power, the power is determined by which school the implement is associated with. The implement grants its resonant power to whoever possesses it. No where is x giving anything to y1 or y2. Gaining the resonant power of it's school is letting you know which resonant power to it has, it's not saying that the school is granting the power to the implement.
And the implement is clearly the thing granting the power to the wielder and things don't have dual sources.

SillyString wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
NO. NO. NO! NO!! NO!!! Do you seriously not read anything other people are posting?

You seem to be confused and angry: let me help, the first time you select an implement of the transmutation school you learn the associated implement school, complete with the abilities of that school, resonant powers and all them goodies.

The second time you gain an implement of the transmutation schools you are selecting that school as per the:
occultist wrote:
An occultist can select an implement school more than once in order to learn additional spells from the associated school.
section. I am merely pointing out that the choice of word could have been deliberate on the part of the developer.

So if you selected the school the first time then there's no difference between your "learn" and your "select" as you're selecting a school to learn. When you "select it more than once" you're still selecting to learn it, cause the ability is having you learn a school.


captain yesterday wrote:
probably so you don't have Occultist's running around with an automatic +16 from spamming Transmutation. :-)

Hold up, you joined the discussion late, i'd like to point out we all know you cant select the same stat each time, because enhancement bonuses cant stack. Have you tried applying the resonant powers to separate stats like dex and str?

You know, for science.


captain yesterday wrote:
SillyString wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
Paizo uses Herolabs for building NPCs. Why wouldn't it be just as relevant an opinion.
Yeah, but i dont care about being right, i care about knowing WHY it goes one way or the other.
probably so you don't have Occultist's running around with an automatic +16 from spamming Transmutation. :-)

not a problem, as enhancement bonuses don't stack. 3 lots of +6 isn't quite such a big deal :)


captain yesterday wrote:
Paizo uses Herolabs for building NPCs.

I have never heard of this. Do you have an official source that says this?


Chess Pwn wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
Paizo uses Herolabs for building NPCs.
I have never heard of this. Do you have an official source that says this?

I want to make sure he's attempting to apply those enhancement bonuses to different stats. There's 0 points gained in favor of my interpretation if he's selecting the same stat when he tries it out.

BUT, if he tries it out and it grants both dex and str bonuses, AND we find a source for paizo supporting it, then i will happily concede all points.

So the stakes are high!

PS: @Chess Pwn, sorry, technically i think the edit I made was before you posted your rant, but you were probably busy typing. I may be hard to convince, but i'm not a total dick!


It only allows one stat to be increased by +2. That is all, no others are allowed to be selected.


captain yesterday wrote:
It only allows one stat to be increased by +2. That is all, no others are allowed to be selected.

Thank you for furthering science.

Well i'm glad a handful of people here and hero lab shares my understanding anyway.


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Chess Pwn wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
Paizo uses Herolabs for building NPCs.
I have never heard of this. Do you have an official source that says this?

I heard it from the top.

I can probably find more instances, but this was the easiest to find.

WARNING it is a GM thread for Songs of Silver.

edit: fixed link.


captain yesterday wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
Paizo uses Herolabs for building NPCs.
I have never heard of this. Do you have an official source that says this?

I heard it from the top.

I can probably find more instances, but this was the easiest to find.

WARNING it is a GM thread for Songs of Silver.

Wow, that seems pretty firm. There's still a chance that its a bug in herolab though, so all those of a differing interpretation to me should take note of that.


If it was a bug, it would've been fixed by now. Lone Wolf (the company that makes hero labs) is usually pretty spot on, and prompt with fixes.

something that obvious wouldn't make it under the radar this long.


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captain yesterday wrote:

If it was a bug, it would've been fixed by now. Lone Wolf (the company that makes hero labs) is usually pretty spot on, and prompt with fixes.

something that obvious wouldn't make it under the radar this long.

Well in that case I cant thank you enough for resolving this issue. +10 awesome points. (I'd have only given you +9 if it had proved me wrong.)

I would still like to know exactly why (and because of which parts exactly) the other's interpretation was incorrect, though.


No problem. i learned a lot about Occultists myself. :-)


I think they were confusing resonant powers with focus powers.

Which is where I was mistaken.

It's a pretty easy mistake to make. :-)

Edit: I wouldn't have found out myself if I hadn't tried so hard to prove you wrong. :-)


captain yesterday wrote:
I think they were confusing resonant powers with focus powers.

What are you talking about?


It's all in the book.

Edit: resonant powers are locked in. Outside of base focus powers, all other focus powers are chosen.


Chess Pwn wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
I think they were confusing resonant powers with focus powers.
What are you talking about?

Yeah, captain that really wasn't the issue they were having...

But hey, at least we've reached a fairly definitive conclusion. The issue was with the overall understanding of most of the terms used in the class features and the developer's general intent. It was a matter of interpretation that honestly could've gone either way, and it's unlikely we'll ever know exactly which part of the stuff I posted prevents their interpretation from being correct.

Seeing as how it the discussion got pretty intense i think it's better that we just drop it now...


I'd just like for someone to admit they were wrong. :-)


captain yesterday wrote:
I'd just like for someone to admit they were wrong. :-)

-.-

Be nice.


Herolabs is still not a legal rules source.


That's what the smiley faces are for. :-)

I have no beef with anyone. :-)


captain yesterday wrote:
I'd just like for someone to admit they were wrong. :-)

You're free to admit you are wrong. :D

Herolab isn't official it's just somebodies interpretation.
Herolab is wrong a lot, and wont change unless a DEV tells them too.
The devs haven't needed to select the same school multiple times to see this is a problem and tell them to fix it.

You absolutely get 2 resonant powers if you've charge two implements with mental focus and are the owner of the implements.


dragonhunterq wrote:
Herolabs is still not a legal rules source.

Not by itself, but if I took Occult Adventures and my Herolabs printed character sheet to a PFS game I won't be turned away.


dragonhunterq wrote:
Herolabs is still not a legal rules source.

Know that I agree with this, but given the factors like how long its been up and how paizo support it, and that they've not decided to "correct" it, its looking likely to be pretty accurate. It's the best resource we currently have for determining RAI for this issue as we both were convinced by our readings of the RAW.

But anyway, captain shouldnt be badgering people to admit they were wrong, especially as we dont know exactly why (and under which part of the discussion) they could be wrong.

Generally it fits within my view of "if the rules dont say you get something extra, you dont get something extra." So i'm biased towards being content with it.

Even if herolabs were an 100% airtight inscrutable source it'd still be a pretty hollow victory.


captain yesterday wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
Herolabs is still not a legal rules source.
Not by itself, but if I took Occult Adventures and my Herolabs printed character sheet to a PFS game I won't be turned away.

Assuming they hadn't made any errors, you're correct.

Plus if you don't take an option then you never have to worry about a GM saying you're wrong.
But Herolab saying it's wrong doesn't make it actually wrong or even PFS wrong.


Chess Pwn wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
I'd just like for someone to admit they were wrong. :-)

You're free to admit you are wrong. :D

Herolab isn't official it's just somebodies interpretation.
Herolab is wrong a lot, and wont change unless a DEV tells them too.
The devs haven't needed to select the same school multiple times to see this is a problem and tell them to fix it.

You absolutely get 2 resonant powers if you've charge two implements with mental focus and are the owner of the implements.

I already admitted i was wrong. :-)

Your turn. :-)

If only there was some sort of confirmation or maybe an announcement that Paizo uses Herolabs...

edit: I feel like i made my point, so i'll drop its now. :-)


Disclaimer: I do not condone my lovely threads being used to wind people up -.-


captain yesterday wrote:


If only there was some sort of confirmation or maybe an announcement that Paizo uses Herolabs...

edit: I feel like i made my point, so i'll drop its now. :-)

Now, if only we weren't saying that herolabs is (not often, but) sometimes wrong, and that first quote wasn't about an unresolved error...

Even then, it isn't a rules source, no matter who uses it, or how accurate it is.

The Concordance

It seems pretty cut and dry that you get two implements if you select a school twice. Those two implements should be able to receive mental focus to power resonant powers.

Why are people using a third party as a rules source?


ShieldLawrence wrote:

It seems pretty cut and dry that you get two implements if you select a school twice. Those two implements should be able to receive mental focus to power resonant powers.

Why are people using a third party as a rules source?

Cause it happened to agree with their incorrect idea.


Hi ShieldLawrence, you've joined the discussion a little late here, and i apologize for being asleep at the time of your post. The wording of the RAW leaves it vague as to whether you can gain the same resonant power twice, because although you can select the same school twice, gaining another implement specifically-

Occultist wrote:
in order to learn additional spells from the associated school

-the resonant power still, ultimately, is the same ability with the same name that comes from the same source school. And nowhere states that you are able to benefit from the same resonant power multiple times (even though both of your implements would have access to it, you would not), only that you get access to it when you first learn to access the school.

Further applying the principle that "unless otherwise specifically stated, you do not gain something just because a description doesnt say you cant" (which although not a rule holds true in 99% of cases) helps to support this.

Given paizo's recent collaborations and support for hero labs, aswell as their working in conjunction with ensuring the accuracy of their rules, as evidenced in captain yesterday's links, It is unfortunately the best resource we have to determine RAI in the absence of an FAQ. Further adding to this is the fact that the occultist class has been up for quite some time now without "correcting" our interpretation, and has been viewed as "working as intended".

---

Although I am content with the outcome of this, I agree that there will inevitably be those that disagree with all of our interpretation of the RAW that we view to be cut and dry, and wish to fight against it until official developer intervention in the forums. Which is unlikely, given the niche aspect of the subject.

Should this happen and a developer actually overturn this, I will freely admit fault and urge the others that share my interpretation to do so aswell.

As a final note: Thanks to everyone that helped keeping this discussion rolling.


So I found some further support, the Relic Hunter Inquisitor.

Quote:
A relic hunter casts divine spells drawn from the inquisitor spell list, but her chosen relic schools (see Relics below) limit her to schools she knows, similar in function to an occultist's implements. Any spell or orison gained by the relic hunter has a relic component (see Relics below), and is not considered to be on the relic hunter's spell list until she selects its school though the relics alternate class feature. Once she chooses a school, all spells and orisons of that school are considered to be on the relic hunter's class spell list, allowing her to use spell trigger and spell completion magic items of those spells. A relic hunter's spells per day, daily spell allotment, Difficulty Class, and minimum Wisdom score requirements remain unchanged from the inquisitor's normal spellcasting class feature.
Quote:
At 1st level, a relic hunter gains the occultist's implements class feature (see page 47) and learns to use two occultist implement schools as relic schools. At 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter, the relic hunter learns to use one additional relic school drawn from the same source, gaining access to that school's resonant power and base focus power and opening up that school's focus powers for her to select. [/b]Like an occultist, a relic hunter can select the same school twice, but it is far less useful for her to do so.[/b]

So if "selecting" the school only granted you additional spells then instead of "can select the same school twice, but it is far less useful for her to do so." it'd be, you can select for no additional benefits. Since her spells known aren't dependent on this ability and she gains all spells on her list. There would be absolutely no benefit. But maintaining the ability to have another implement with the resonant power is something they could gain, but it it far less than the occultist that also gains the spells known and spells on spell list.

But it says you're learning a relic school, and you can select the same school twice like the occultist. But since this doesn't say what you gain, and only "gain additional spells known" doesn't work as that would provide no benefits.


I think you're not making a distinction between "on the relic hunter's spell list" and "spells known".
Just because the relic hunter adds her spells to her spell list that she can choose from when she gains an implement, it doesnt mean she automatically learns them all. Note that it's EXACTLY the same for the standard Occultist:

Occultist wrote:
Once an implement school has been chosen, all spells on the lists from that school below are considered to be on the occultist's spell list for the purpose of spell trigger and spell completion magic items.

So although its a good effort, this changes nothing.

---

Moving on:

Quote:
Like an occultist, a relic hunter can select the same school twice, but it is far less useful for her to do so.

This is an interesting little tidbit, it doesnt specifically say anything to the contrary, neither does it somehow confirm what you are trying to convey.

By all means keep trying to develop your understand of it though. The Occultist is one of the "wordier" classes.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Having re-read the ability descriptions with the question in mind, it doesn't have anything to do with the word learn vs select, implement schools, or any of the semantics being argued. It has to do with the number (and type) of implements chosen at the beginning of the day.

I'll try to repost the relevant rules in the order they should have been written later today. But the key clause that changed my mind was the middle clause in the second sentence of the second paragraph under Implements. You do have to choose multiple implements from the same school if you've chosen it more than once.

And you do get to invest focus in them if you want.

And the source of the resonant power is the Implement.


Blake's Tiger wrote:
And the source of the resonant power is the Implement.

I agree with everything you just posted, with the exception of the fact it says the implement gains its powers from the school. So the source of the power is actually the school. (the source of the "source") At least, that's my understanding, and may well be the reason for hero lab to have not acknowledged their paizo approved and supported product as having a bug.

And as a general rule, assuming you dont qualify for extra stuff is always better than assuming you do.

With all that being said, the relic hunter tidbit text I referenced in my last post has been the first thing to make a dent in my resolve. What exactly makes selecting "the same school twice, but it is far less useful for her to do so" different to the occultist, because it says nothing about it giving the resonant powers in any different way to the normal occultist (and gaining an additional spell known from his spell list). It is interesting.


The source of the resonant power is your mental focus. Your mental focus doesn't have any link to your implement schools


Things that are clear:

1) You may select an Implement School more than once.

2) If you select an Implement School more than once, you require an additional implement for each time you've selected the School.

3) You can invest Mental Focus in your implements.

4) When you invest Mental Focus in an implement, its Resonant Powers activate.

Let's expand this further.

5) You can hand your implements to other party members.

6) An implement's Resonant Powers continue to function for others.

Would you agree that:

* I can take Transmutation twice
* Which requires two Transmutation implements
* Which I can invest Mental Focus into
* By investing 3 Mental Focus into each, the Resonant Power of each activates
* I set the first implement to grant a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength, and set the other to Dex
* I could give the party Rogue the Dex implement and they would gain a +2 enhancement bonus to Dex, while I would enjoy a +2 enhancement bonus to Str.

If that all follows and makes sense to you (can't see why it wouldn't, it's all extremely clear RAW), then you must accept that a character can benefit from multiple Enhancement bonuses to different ability scores, and that means that if the Occultist *doesn't* hand off the implement, then they gain a +2 enhancement bonus to Str and Dex.

Now, that said, can we also acknowledge this is a really terrible character build option that requires a 16+ Int and Extra Mental Focus to even pull off at level 1, and even then, it's not actually that amazing?

That bears repeating, in my opinion - even knowing this works, is this *actually* even a problem?

You're a much weaker Occultist as a result of doing this.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Gulthor has gotten what it took me a while to get.

I don't expect it was intended because Transmutation is the only time this works. Every other instance, with the exception of handing items off, which is intended, it is disadvantageous to split your focus among implements of the same school.

However, as written, I now agree that it is legal.

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