Occultist Implements & Resonant powers


Rules Questions

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If I pick up a transmutation implement, investing mental focus into it to gain +2 to Dex, can i pick up another transmutation implement, investing mental focus into it to gain +2 to Str at the same time?


Basically the question is about whether the resonant power is linked to the implement or the implement school, and if you can gain a benefit from an identical ability twice, providing you select different stats.

Anyone have any thoughts?


occultist implements wrote:
Every day, the occultist selects one item from that school's list to be his implement for the day for each implement school he knows.

You can only choose one implement for each school you know.

You would need to choose transmutation school twice to have two implements and thus two resonant powers.


dragonhunterq wrote:
occultist implements wrote:
Every day, the occultist selects one item from that school's list to be his implement for the day for each implement school he knows.

You can only choose one implement for each school you know.

You would need to choose transmutation school twice to have two implements and thus two resonant powers.

Awesome, so to clarify: No getting +2 to dex and +2 to str by selecting a transmutation school implement at 1st level and 2nd level?

Because although you can select the school twice to gain more spells, you can only have one implement representing each school?

PS Thanks for the quote, it's so easy to skim over a sentence or two, especially in a wordy class like the occultist.


You can (it probably isn't wise, but you can) choose transmutation school twice at first level and gain +2 to str and dex.

It is helpful to remind yourself that 'implement schools' are not the same thing as 'spell schools', but that your 'implement school' is a subset of 6 spells of the 'spell school'.

Implements are linked to the 6 spells (1 at each spell level) you select for each 'implement school' you choose. If you have selected the transmutation 'implement school' twice, you must use 2 implements, once for each 'implement school', and each implement can only use the spell specific to that implement school.

AN EXAMPLE wrote:

Lets say you select for trans school 1 alter winds and accelerate poison as your 1st and 2nd level spells and select a belt as your implement

And for your second trans school you chose any haul and bullet shield and boots for your implement.

You could not use your boots to cast alter winds or accelerate poison. Likewise your belt cannot be used to cast ant haul

that example holds true for all 6 spell levels, so you need to keep your spell lists separate if you choose a school twice - you cannot mix and match.

I may have waffled, I hope that makes sense.


riiight... see i thought your quoute of "

occultist implements wrote:
Every day, the occultist selects one item from that school's list to be his implement for the day for each implement school he knows.

Meant that only one item (implement) can represent one of the 8 implement schools (eg transmutation) at any given time, so you can only gain one resonant power for each of the 8 schools you have access to at any given time, though you can alternate between which bonus it gives you (or which transmutation implement you use) at the start of each day "When you invest mental focus in the implement".

I mean selecting your second transmutation implement cant give you access to the transmutation school AGAIN, because theres only THE transmutation school and you already have access to it. There's only the one transmutation implement school, after all. Selecting an additional transmutation implement does give you extra spells though, as indicated in the occultist class description.

Can we confirm?

---

Basically, despite you saying

dragonhunterq wrote:
You can (it probably isn't wise, but you can) choose transmutation school twice at first level and gain +2 to str and dex.

When you select an implement school twice, the first time you pick it you get access to the school, and once you have access - thats it, you have access, picking it again only gives you more spells, as per:

Occultist Implements wrote:
An occultist can select an implement school more than once in order to learn additional spells from the associated school.

Thanks for the linked quote btw, that's the tidbit sentence that I needed as clarification, even if it does mean i can't triple the transmutation resonant powers I have active at the same time!


Lets look at the next sentence shall we?

Quote:
The occultist needs only one such item to cast spells of the corresponding school, unless he selected that implement school multiple times, in which case he needs one item for each set of spells gained from that school.

Which clearly says that you must have another implement for your second set of spells.

Quote:
Whenever an occultist casts a spell, he must have the corresponding implement in his possession and present the implement to the target or toward the area of effect.

And since you have two sets of the schools spells and two implements, one for each set, you need to present the correct implement for the spell your are casting. Further showing that you have two implements.

And we know that mental focus can be applied to any implement you have.

Quote:
He can divide this mental focus between his implements in any way he desires.

And once they have mental focus they can trigger their resonant power, which means you can have two implements, both with their resonant power going for you.


Occultist wrote:

The occultist needs only one such item to cast spells of the corresponding school, unless he selected that implement school multiple times, in which case he needs one item for each set of spells gained from that school.

Whenever an occultist casts a spell, he must have the corresponding implement in his possession and present the implement to the target or toward the area of effect.

Yep, your understanding of this so far is spot on, 100% backed by the RAW.

Chess Pwn wrote:
And once they have mental focus they can trigger their resonant power, which means you can have two implements, both with their resonant power going for you.

I have a real problem with this logic. The "the rules dont say I can't gain the same power from one school multiple times, so therefore I can." mentality without RAW or developer confirmation just feels toxic, and casts my mind back to the "the rules dont say i cant cast spells while dead" thing.

---

Basically:
The implements are separate, with separate spells as designated by the RAW, but they address the same source and branch from it (with one implement serving to access the implement school's resonant / focus abilities). That's the reason why they specifically include the text that selecting an implement from a school you already know DOES give extra spells, it doesnt say it gives another carbon copy of the transmutation school, there is only ONE transmutation school, and it has the set of resonant and focus powers. (That, once you have access to, you have access to.) Hence the very clear quote from the RAW

occultist wrote:
Every day, the occultist selects one item from that school's list to be his implement for the day for each implement school he knows.

You cant just Choose to overlook something like that that is clearly stated in the RAW either. Notice this doesnt mention spells, which are later covered nicely by your first two quotes, but instead refer to the implement school itself.

Lets summarise what this says about the rules using a metaphor:
You are in room X, a cake is in room Y.
A door appears between rooms X and Y, you gain access to the cake.
A second door appears between rooms X and Y, it doesnt matter, you already have access to the cake. You do not gain a second cake.

(To expand this metaphor over the occultist spell rules aswell: "you gain spells for each door you possess")
Key: Cake=resonant powers, Doors=implements


Chess Pwn is correct.

(1) The rules that he quoted show that If you select the Transmutation school twice then you have two Implements from that School, each of which is associated with a different set of Transmutation spells.

(2) The rules that he quoted tell us that you can divide your Mental Focus any way that you want. That means you can put some in each of your Transmutation Implements.

(3) Al little further down, the rules for Mental Focus tell us what happens any time that you put Mental Focus into an Implement.

Quote:

Mental Focus (Su): An occultist can invest a portion of his mental focus into his chosen implements for the day, allowing him to utilize a variety of abilities depending on the implements and the amount of mental focus invested in them. An occultist has a number of points of mental focus equal to his occultist level + his Intelligence modifier; these points refresh each day. He can divide this mental focus between his implements in any way he desires. If an implement is lost or destroyed, the focus invested in it is lost as well, though the occultist still refreshes those points of focus normally.

Once mental focus is invested inside an implement, the implement gains the resonant power of its implement school, and the occultist can expend the mental focus stored in the implement to activate the associated focus powers he knows. If a resonant power grants a bonus that varies based on the amount of mental focus invested in the implement, the bonus is determined when the focus is invested, and is not reduced or altered by expending the mental focus invested in the item. Once all of the mental focus in an implement has been expended, it loses its resonant power until mental focus is once again invested in the implement.

So any time you put Mental Focus into any Implement, it gains the Resonant Power. It isn't even optional. So each of your Transmutation Implements will gain the Resonant Power if you put Mental Focus into both.


Gisher wrote:
(1) The rules that he quoted show that If you select the Transmutation school twice then you have two Implements from that School, each of which is associated with a different set of Transmutation spells

This is correct.

Gisher wrote:
(2) The rules that he quoted tell us that you can divide your Mental Focus any way that you want. That means you can put some in each of your Transmutation Implements.

This is correct.

But (3), it makes no difference that "he can divide the mental focus between his implements in any way he desires", thats not the thing thats up for debate.

To me it doesnt make much sense that the occultist is able to gain the implement school's resonant power with the same name and source twice because it doesnt say that you specifically cant in the RAW. (This is similar to how its also assumed you cant take a feat or rogue talent or alchemist discovery more than once unless it says you can. EVEN if you gain that rogue talent, feat or discovery from separate classes)

I like to stick to the rule that unless the rules specifically say you CAN do something, dont just assume you can.

And chess pwns interpretation doesnt factor in quotes like

occultist wrote:
Every day, the occultist selects one item from that school's list to be his implement for the day for each implement school he knows.

at all. Which seem to be have specifically included to cover this issue.


If you choose transmutation twice, you know 2 implement schools. It is that simple.


dragonhunterq wrote:
If you choose transmutation twice, you know 2 implement schools. It is that simple.

This isnt true, there's only one transmutation school. How can you "know" something twice?

That's like meeting the world's only purple giraffe for a second time and saying:
example wrote:
"ive now met two purple giraffes."

What the occultist says is that you can SELECT the same implement school more than once to gain an implement / more spells, not that selecting the implement school for a second time duplicates the source school.


No, it's like meeting the worlds only purple giraffe, turning around and realising that it isn't actually the only purple giraffe as there is a second one right there.

Implement schools are a set of 6 spells. It doesn't matter what spell school they are from. If you choose transmutation 3 times you will still have 3 implement schools - they just happen to all be from the same spell school.

spell school =/= implement school.


dragonhunterq wrote:

Implement schools are a set of 6 spells. It doesn't matter what spell school they are from. If you choose transmutation 3 times you will still have 3 implement schools - they just happen to all be from the same spell school.

spell school =/= implement school.

Right... that doesnt make much sense, but I suppose I can see where you're coming from. I just always assumed that there were exactly 8 (implement) schools of magic, not potentially infinite schools of magic all under 8 catagories.

I guess we just have to ignore the

occultist wrote:

spell list, limited by the implement groups he knows. (wording is important here implement groups=/=implement schools)

For each implement school he learns to use, he can add one spell of each level he can cast to his list of spells known, chosen from that school's spell list. If he selects the same implement school multiple times, he adds one spell of each level from that school's list for each time he has selected that school. (selects, not learns)

An occultist can select (not learn) an implement school more than once in order to learn additional spells from the associated school.

Each implement school is represented by a small list of objects (implement school, not implement)

Every day, the occultist selects one item from that school's list to be his implement for the day for each implement school he knows.

bits of the rules that say otherwise (i can provide more quotes if you like, archetypes like the necrocultist have wording to this effect aswell) and the
occultist wrote:
implement school grants access

bits of text that specifically say that its the school and not the implement itself that grants access to the powers?

To go back to my room metaphor, i cant see how it matters how many ways to get into a room there are, once you get there there will only ever be one cake. For this example I just cant see there being more than 8 rooms with cakes in them, one for each (implement) school of magic: Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy and Transmutation.

Basically, what you're suggesting is that the implements are the rooms instead of the doors, each with their own (copies of the transmutation school and thus) cake. Which is an interesting idea but isnt specifically supported by any text weve posted so far and doesnt match up with the wording of the class as evidenced in the quotes ive posted.

I just can't justify allowing players to recieve extra benefits based on what the class doesnt say it cant do, sure it might not be overpowered to let them do so, but I like to stick to RAW and directly stated developer RAI.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

For the sake of contrasting opinion, I interpreted the rules the way SillyString did, and after all this, I'm still not convinced. For me, the most concise and direct reading is as SillyString has stated, but it seems like it takes some gymnastics to reach the other interpretation. However, I am open to the possibility that I am confused.


SillyString wrote:
and directly stated developer RAI.

Link?

Blake's Tiger wrote:
For me, the most concise and direct reading is as SillyString has stated, but it seems like it takes some gymnastics to reach the other interpretation.

Strange how different minds work. To me your reading feels obtuse like you are missing half the equation or seeing it through mist. Mine feels intuitive, a natural reading that I didn't have to look for, it also feels concise and direct - I can't see the gymnastics at all.

(no point here, just an observation in how people can see the same thing differently)


dragonhunterq wrote:
SillyString wrote:
and directly stated developer RAI.

Link?

Blake's Tiger wrote:
For me, the most concise and direct reading is as SillyString has stated, but it seems like it takes some gymnastics to reach the other interpretation.

Strange how different minds work. To me your reading feels obtuse like you are missing half the equation or seeing it through mist. Mine feels intuitive, a natural reading that I didn't have to look for, it also feels concise and direct - I can't see the gymnastics at all.

(no point here, just an observation in how people can see the same thing differently)

As far as a link goes, i dont have anything to hand, just look for one of the many FAQs about people thinking they get more stuff because the rules dont explicitly say that they dont, (i keep using casting while dead as an example, but there are many more relevant ones) and you'll find some.

The gymnastics to reach your conclusion require:
1) Ignoring the delicate phrasing of every single sentence that references the implements.
2) Interpreting the 8 fixed magical schools as being not unique (creating another copy of a "unique" purple girrafe(school) just because you picked up another implement)
3) Ignoring the all the various rogue talents, alchemist discoveries, rage powers, feats, revelations, domains, bloodlines, wizard schools, powers etc etc etc that serve as examples of similar abilities that a player cant benefit from twice, (unless specifically called out as doing so in the description).
4) Ignoring the specific occultist text that mentions when you pick up another implement that has the same school as another implement: "An occultist can select an implement school more than once in order to learn additional spells from the associated school." And assuming you get all the other resonant powers AGAIN instead of just getting what is says you get.

Those are the "big 4" gymnastics that im having to contend with to be convinced by your interpretation. As a general rule, i stick to "if it doesnt say I can do it (gain the full benefits of something twice), then chances are I cant." But if you can actually convince me otherwise then i'll be a very happy man indeed.

At the very least I would like to think by laying all this information out I'm able to help people reach their own conclusions, or even reconsider previous misconceptions.

---

I think thats why the simple rule of "if it doesnt specifically say otherwise, err on the side of no when deciding if you get more stuff" could be considered more concise and direct than the above gymnastics that are required to benefit from the transmutation school resonant power twice or three times.


Simplicity of our conclusion

Every time you gain an implement from your implement ability you gain an implement.
You can put mental focus into any implement you have.
An implement with mental focus grants resonant powers.


2) They MUST be two schools of transmutation. Reason? it's in the rule.

Quote:
At 1st level, an occultist learns to use two implement schools. At 2nd level and every 4 occultist levels thereafter, the occultist learns to use one additional implement school

and

Quote:
An occultist can select an implement school more than once in order to learn additional spells from the associated school.

So MUST learn two implement school, but I can pick the same school more than once. So that means if I pick transmutation twice that I've learned transmutation and transmutation again because the ability says I learn two schools and it later on says I can choose to learn the same school again for more spells. It's not saying that Instead of learning a new school I can pick a school I already know for more spells. It says, If I want to learn more spells from a "school of magic" I must learn that "implement school" again. It specifically is saying that I can learn the school multiple times. And your idea that "select =/= learns" is garbage. The ability is that you're selecting a school to learn. And it allows you to select the same school more than once to learn it again.

If it didn't have this language than you couldn't learn a school more than once. But the language of the ability is that you learn a new school and that you can select the same school more than once, aka you may learn a school more than once.


Chess Pwn wrote:
An implement with mental focus grants resonant powers.

FROM one of the 8 implement schools. Not from themselves. You cant just cut out the context of the ability to suit your needs.

Your idea that you can learn something twice makes no sense, you can only learn something once. But you can SELECT something more than once as per the ability's text, it doesnt mean you learn the source again: It only means you gain the benefits that it specifically states, and the developers probably included to avoid your confusion. (Source "An occultist can select an implement school more than once in order to learn additional spells from the associated school.")
Its the purple giraffe all over again. There are 8 schools of magic. Not infinite schools of magic with 8 catagories. The contortionism and cherry picking you're pulling to twist simple rules just to get extra stuff is mind blowing.


3)All of your listed things that you can't benefit twice from are either a reoccurring choice of from a set list of available options, or is something that you make to define your character.
But lets look, if you are a sorcerer and a bloodrage you have bloodline twice and they don't interact other than they must be the same type. If the bloodrager didn't have that line then you could have two different bloodlines. Same thing with domains and inquisitors, but they can choose an inquisition still to bypass and still have a unique choice.

Lets look at things that are the same ability but have more than one option, Like Evil Eye. You can apply evil eye onto someone multiple times because each penalty is considered a different source. Even though it's all from the same thing.
Also it's quite possible to double up on things and have them not overlap or conflict. A witch doctor life shaman has the channel energy ability twice, and both are completely separate from each other.

You've already been granted permission to take the same school more than once and nothing in the abilities say they stop working if you select them again. So it's not a "it doesn't say I can't" it's a "It says I can, and then never says I can't." So you'll have two separate abilities "Physical Enhancement" that are different sources and do different things.


The rules don't say that both your Implements can get the Resonant Power. They say that they must both get the Resonant Power.

Quote:
Once mental focus is invested inside an implement, the implement gains the resonant power of its implement school, ...

There is no language making this optional. There is no language making exceptions for Implements selected from the same school. There is no language making exceptions for any other reason. If you put Mental Focus into two Implements then they both gain a Resonant Power. Always.

Note that it is the Implements that each get the Resonant Power, and not you. You aren't getting the same power twice; they each get the Power once. Each can convey that power to you or whoever else you give them to. It certainly is true that some benefits of Resonant Powers won't stack. For example, you can't stack the resistance bonuses from two Abjuration Implements, but the two Implements do both have the Warding Talisman Resonant Power.


since when was '1+1=2' contortionism?

It's at least as straightforward as your interpretation.


Chess Pwn wrote:
You've already been granted permission to take the same school more than once

Note: Select, not learn, and in the context of it very specifically giving only extra spells and the ability to access the source school. As has been shown to you many times directly from the occultist page as a source.

Quote:
So it's not a "it doesn't say I can't" it's a "It says I can, and then never says I can't." So you'll have two separate abilities "Physical Enhancement" that are different sources and do different things.

That are using the SAME transmutation school as a source.

Quote:
Once mental focus is invested inside an implement, the implement gains the resonant power of its implement school, ...


SillyString wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
An implement with mental focus grants resonant powers.

FROM one of the 8 implement schools. Not from themselves. You cant just cut out the context of the ability to suit your needs.

Your idea that you can learn something twice makes no sense, you can only learn something once. ...

You aren't learning anything twice. Resonant Powers are properties of the Implements that are activated by the infusion of Mental Focus. It is the Implements that have Resonant Powers, not you.


4) Your for is just your #2 again. Lets rephrase what it's saying.

When you're LEARNING an implement school you may pick a school you already know and learn it again. This is the only way you can learn additional spells from the associated school.

Nothing in there says INSTEAD OF NORMAL BENEFITS. It's saying that you can pick to learn the same school multiple times. Nothing in the line "An occultist can select an implement school more than once in order to learn additional spells from the associated school." stops all the previous stuff that happens when you select a school to learn from happening.

When you learn a school do X and Y. You may select a school again to learn as to gain more Y. Nothing says don't do X too.

So again, if it had INSTEAD OF, or any similar wording then yes, selecting the same school would ONLY do what's listed, but as it's not saying instead, but instead it's granting you the ability to select the school again to learn. THIS is your specific call out in the description that you can select the same thing multiple times "(unless specifically called out as doing so in the description)."


Gisher wrote:
SillyString wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
An implement with mental focus grants resonant powers.

FROM one of the 8 implement schools. Not from themselves. You cant just cut out the context of the ability to suit your needs.

Your idea that you can learn something twice makes no sense, you can only learn something once. ...

You aren't learning anything twice. Resonant Powers are properties of the Implements that are activated by the infusion of Mental Focus. It is the Implements that have Resonant Powers, not you.

Chesspwn and dragonhunter q KEEP going on about specifically how learning / selecting are the exact same thing, and how there are infintite "schools" of transmutation instead of the fixed one. I'm glad you are logical enough to at least acknowledge this is not the case.

And if they are not, then:

occultist wrote:
Every day, the occultist selects one item from that school's list to be his implement for the day for each implement school he knows.

Should tell you exactly how it works given that

occultist wrote:
An occultist can select an implement school more than once in order to learn additional spells from the associated school.


Chess Pwn wrote:

4) Your for is just your #2 again. Lets rephrase what it's saying.

When you're LEARNING an implement school you may pick a school you already know and learn it again.

You cant learn something more than once, you can only select, this is why they didnt say learn, this is why they specifically said select.

Chess Pwn wrote:
Nothing in there says INSTEAD OF NORMAL BENEFITS.

Just because it doesnt say you cant doesnt mean you can.

Chess Pwn wrote:
It's saying that you can pick to learn the same school multiple times.

You cant learn something more than once, once it is learnead it is learned. You can only SELECT the implement as a vessel for that school, as per the wording

Chess Pwn wrote:
When you learn a school do X and Y. You may select a school again to learn as to gain more Y. Nothing says don't do X too.

More "it doesnt say I cant therefore i can", and "ill just assume they only mentioned gaining specifically that benefit because they're lazy" b%!!~#+@.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

This is where I am: I can only select one of my Transmutation implements for the day to invest focus.

I might have 2 transmutation implements, but I don't see where in the rules I can invest in more than one per school.

Food for thought: Transmutaion is the only school that gives you more than one benefit if you could invest in more than one implement. I'm pretty sure the intent was not to give you a way to circumvent the +2/4 levels limit at 2nd level.


SillyString wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
An implement with mental focus grants resonant powers.
FROM one of the 8 implement schools. Not from themselves. You cant just cut out the context of the ability to suit your needs.
Okay,
Chess Pwn wrote:
An implement, from one of the 8 implement schools, with mental focus grants resonant powers.

I thought it was obvious that I'm talking about the occultists implements, which by default are tied to an implement school. But I guess if you were confusing them with some made up implements I can specify and clarify that indeed, an occultist imbuing an implement, which must be an object from a known implement school, with mental focus causes the implement, which is the same item previously mentioned in this sentence, to grant it's resonant power to the wearer.


SillyString wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
You've already been granted permission to take the same school more than once
Note: Select, not learn, and in the context of it very specifically giving only extra spells and the ability to access the source school. As has been shown to you many times directly from the occultist page as a source.

Okay then what do you call it if they are going evocation? Are they "choosing" that school instead of "selecting" that school? Because the ability wording is "learns to use one additional implement school" So there is no difference from selecting evocation to learn as from selecting transmutation again to learn. please show me where it says that selecting the same school STOPS the previous stuff or ONLY does the latter stuff Like seriously. I've addressed this. You're making no counter arguments, aren't addressing the points I'm bringing up.

SillyString wrote:
Quote:
So it's not a "it doesn't say I can't" it's a "It says I can, and then never says I can't." So you'll have two separate abilities "Physical Enhancement" that are different sources and do different things.

That are using the SAME transmutation school as a source.

Quote:
Once mental focus is invested inside an implement, the implement gains the resonant power of its implement school, ...

Well duh, My transmutation school implement isn't going to grant me the resonant power of an abjuration school implement.

And no, the transmutation school isn't the "source", because IT's not granting anything. My implement, which is tied to an implement school, is granting the power. The school isn't a source of anything.


Blake's Tiger wrote:

This is where I am: I can only select one of my Transmutation implements for the day to invest focus.

I might have 2 transmutation implements, but I don't see where in the rules I can invest in more than one per school.

Food for thought: Transmutaion is the only school that gives you more than one benefit if you could invest in more than one implement. I'm pretty sure the intent was not to give you a way to circumvent the +2/4 levels limit at 2nd level.

So since it's granting an enhancement bonus to one of your stats you can't double up the bonus, but you can have different bonuses.

Here's is were the rules say you can do more than one per school. And I'm glad you already stated that you can have two implements from a school.

"An occultist can invest a portion of his mental focus into his chosen implements for the day,"
"He can divide this mental focus between his implements in any way he desires."
"Once mental focus is invested inside an implement, the implement gains the resonant power of its implement school, "
So we have 2 transmutation implements.
I can put in mental focus between my implements in any way I desire.
So I desire to put three points into transmutation implement X and three points into transmutation implement Y.
And once an implement has mental focus in it the implement gains the resonant power. So that means both implements are gaining the resonant power.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Chess Pwn wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:

This is where I am: I can only select one of my Transmutation implements for the day to invest focus.

I might have 2 transmutation implements, but I don't see where in the rules I can invest in more than one per school.

Food for thought: Transmutaion is the only school that gives you more than one benefit if you could invest in more than one implement. I'm pretty sure the intent was not to give you a way to circumvent the +2/4 levels limit at 2nd level.

So since it's granting an enhancement bonus to one of your stats you can't double up the bonus, but you can have different bonuses.

Here's is were the rules say you can do more than one per school. And I'm glad you already stated that you can have two implements from a school.

"An occultist can invest a portion of his mental focus into his chosen implements for the day,"
"He can divide this mental focus between his implements in any way he desires."
"Once mental focus is invested inside an implement, the implement gains the resonant power of its implement school, "
So we have 2 transmutation implements.
I can put in mental focus between my implements in any way I desire.
So I desire to put three points into transmutation implement X and three points into transmutation implement Y.
And once an implement has mental focus in it the implement gains the resonant power. So that means both implements are gaining the resonant power.

Except you left out the key restriction--SillyString has it quoted up there, I'm on a cell--that you can only pick 1 implement per school per day. I can pick Transmutation 3 times, have 3 implements, but per that clause, I can only invest focus in one of them.


I would view the 8 schools of magic to be the source of the powers of the 8 schools of magic that the implements in turn gain their powers from.

Although Chess Pwn is very passionately "addressing" that he thinks that it specifically mentioning gaining spells and not anything else is an oversight, the fact is, by (lack of)RAW it does not say it grants the extra stuff again and instead exchanges the term "learn" to "select", thus changing the context, this causes the developer intention to be murky at best.

Until actual FAQ or developer intervention addresses these holes, no amount of "well i think..." and conjecture will plug them up, because as Chess Pwn mentioned, we are only going to argue ourselves in circles for all eternity. And we appear to have linked as much information to support each of out cases as either of us can.


SillyString wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

4) Your for is just your #2 again. Lets rephrase what it's saying.

When you're LEARNING an implement school you may pick a school you already know and learn it again.

You cant learn something more than once, you can only select, this is why they didn't say learn, this is why they specifically said select.

So what are you doing if it wasn't transmutation again and instead evocation. "Choosing" evocation instead of "selecting" evocation? Like seriously. please explain instead of just saying the same thing over again like it means something.

SillyString wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Nothing in there says INSTEAD OF NORMAL BENEFITS.
Just because it doesnt say you cant doesnt mean you can.
So SillyString. Have you ever uses weapon focus and power attack together? Have you used power attack and fought defensively? Have you used power attack and combat expertise? rapid shot and Manyshot together? rapid shot and haste? Manyshot and haste? Power attack and haste? Are these valid things you could do if you so desired? If so, why?
SillyString wrote:
Just because it doesn't say you cant doesn't mean you can.

See the biggest thing you're missing is that it tells us what happens when we select an implement school to learn. I am giving direct permission to select the same school to learn again. Doing so is the only way for me to gain more spells of that school. Nothing in that line says that the previous doesn't happen, that instead of learning I'm doubling down and get reduced benefits.


Blake's Tiger wrote:


Except you left out the key restriction--SillyString has it quoted up there, I'm on a cell--that you can only pick 1 implement per school per day. I can pick Transmutation 3 times, have 3 implements, but per that clause, I can only invest focus in one of them.

Yes, that's another factor in my favor of how I view the implement schools, but at least until someone posts something actually concrete that specifically states they cant do something, the "it doesnt say I cant, therefore I can" mentality will make this discussion go on forever.

At this point, for the sake of allowing a boost to two stats instead of one, I'm going to do my blood pressure a favor and give up trying to convince him.


occultist wrote:


Each implement school adds one spell per spell level of that school of magic to the occultist’s spell list.

An implement school is expressly and explicitly one spell/spell level of that school.

If I choose the same spell school I am not simply expanding the existing implement school, it is another implement school.

occultist wrote:
An occultist can select an implement school more than once in order to learn additional spells from the associated school.

This allows you to choose a school twice, it doesn't place any further restrictions or limitations on any of the rules that follow it. It does not state, imply or infer that you only have one expanded implement school. All the rules state you have 2 implement schools. Nothing takes that away.

All of the rules about selecting implements for your schools, resonant powers etcetera follows that phrase.

You are already limiting yourself when selecting the same school twice, by losing out on a base focus power and not opening up the focus powers of another school. Adding arbitrary limitations that don't exist seems unnecessary.


Blake's Tiger wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:

This is where I am: I can only select one of my Transmutation implements for the day to invest focus.

I might have 2 transmutation implements, but I don't see where in the rules I can invest in more than one per school.

Food for thought: Transmutaion is the only school that gives you more than one benefit if you could invest in more than one implement. I'm pretty sure the intent was not to give you a way to circumvent the +2/4 levels limit at 2nd level.

So since it's granting an enhancement bonus to one of your stats you can't double up the bonus, but you can have different bonuses.

Here's is were the rules say you can do more than one per school. And I'm glad you already stated that you can have two implements from a school.

"An occultist can invest a portion of his mental focus into his chosen implements for the day,"
"He can divide this mental focus between his implements in any way he desires."
"Once mental focus is invested inside an implement, the implement gains the resonant power of its implement school, "
So we have 2 transmutation implements.
I can put in mental focus between my implements in any way I desire.
So I desire to put three points into transmutation implement X and three points into transmutation implement Y.
And once an implement has mental focus in it the implement gains the resonant power. So that means both implements are gaining the resonant power.

Except you left out the key restriction--SillyString has it quoted up there, I'm on a cell--that you can only pick 1 implement per school per day. I can pick Transmutation 3 times, have 3 implements, but per that clause, I can only invest focus in one of them.

Please don't ignore the next sentence that says, "... unless he selected that implement school multiple times, in which case he needs one item for each set of spells gained from that school."

I need one item for each set of spells, That's one implement for each time I've selected to learn that implementation school.

And, since you've learned the transmutation school multiple times you need to select 1 object for each instance of that school.
I know Transmutation and abjuration, I have to select one object for each.
I know Transmutation and Transmutation , I have to select one object for each.
This is supported by the next sentence I bring up that says if you've selected the school more than once then you have multiple objects, one for each time you've selected it.


Chess Pwn wrote:
And, since you've learned the transmutation school multiple times

If nothing else, can I at least leave having taught you that the definitions of select and learn are different? -.-


SillyString wrote:
Just because it doesnt say you cant doesnt mean you can.

And because something says I can I can.

I'm not saying that when I pick the school I get a free metamagic rod.
This statement would warrant the response of "Just because it doesnt say you cant doesnt mean you can"

But you're saying it in response to using power attack and weapon focus together. We have rule that you gain the benefits of your feat, aka a rule saying you can. And then there's no rule saying you can't use these two together, but there's also no rule specifically saying you can use these together. We don't care about this because of the general rule that says you gain the benefits which we default to.

The same thing is here. We are selecting a school to learn. It then tells us we can select the school multiple times. THIS is the phrasing they use when you are able to choose the same option again.
"gains a rage power."
"A barbarian can select this rage power up to three times."
oh no, it says gain, but the power says select, guess I can't gain it again.
And what happens when we learn an implement school? (stuff) and if we select the same school in order for us to learn more spells from that school? Still (stuff)
The part "in order to learn additional spells from the associated school." is just there to say why you'd maybe want to pick the same school again.
That sentence that you quote stopping this DOESN'T EVEN GRANT YOU MORE SPELLS. If that sentence really did stop everything then you'd not gain any spells because you only gain spells this way.

"Each implement school adds one spell per spell level of that school of magic to the occultist's spell list."
If you only have transmutation once and only "selected" it a second time you'd still only have one spell per spell level. As you only gain spells from implement schools you have. And nothing in " An occultist can select an implement school more than once in order to learn additional spells from the associated school." tells you How many additional spells you'd learn or of what levels or anything. Thus you'd need to default to how do implement schools give spells? And they only give spells for the school you know. So inherently you must know the school twice in order to gain additional spells.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Hmm. I tentatively cede the point. I think the Transmutation school resonant power is unintended loophole, but it does seem to be RAW.


SillyString wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
And, since you've learned the transmutation school multiple times
If nothing else, can I at least leave having taught you that the definitions of select and learn are different? -.-

When is the occultist EVER SELECTING SCHOOLS?

If you're not selecting a school to learn when it says "occultist learns to use two implement schools." But instead we are only "learning" then we never have a chance to select an implement school more than once because we are never selecting implement schools.

Or you know we could use the common way one would use English and the way the rest of the book uses it.

You learn 2 school = you select 2 schools to learn.
You Gain a rage power = you select 1 rage power to gain.
Default rule = you can only select things once.
You can select schools more than once = Exception to default rule, you can select to learn a school more than once.

Like seriously, they've told us MANY times that they aren't doing some form of Rules speech, but common English. Meaning that "can select more than once" isn't some special code phrase that does something completely different, but is normal English. You're making a choice and you can select the same thing multiple times.


The other BIG issue you're missing out on is you can hand off your implements to others. So there's clear reasons you'd want to pick a school more than once because you want multiple instances of the same resonant power.

You're a blasting guild, you take evocation twice and power up to implements and pass one off to your buddy, letting both of you gain bonus damage.

You're an undead creating cult. You do only necromancy and hand off all your implements to your buddies to be awesome dead raisers.

You are with another human and then everyone else has darkvision. You do Divination on two implements to grant darkvision to you and the other human.

All of these are only possible if you can have two implements from a school with resonant powers. Which it seems you can only have if you've "learned" the school multiple times.


skimming back I can answer one point I think.

Blake's Tiger wrote:
I might have 2 transmutation implements, but I don't see where in the rules I can invest in more than one per school.

Can you tell me where it states I can't?

mental focus wrote:

Mental Focus (Su): An occultist can invest a portion of his mental focus into his chosen implements for the day, allowing him to utilize a variety of abilities depending on the implements and the amount of mental focus invested in them. An occultist has a number of points of mental focus equal to his occultist level + his Intelligence modifier; these points refresh each day. He can divide this mental focus between his implements in any way he desires. If an implement is lost or destroyed, the focus invested in it is lost as well, though the occultist still refreshes those points of focus normally.

Once mental focus is invested inside an implement, the implement gains the resonant power of its implement school

There is no limitation stated or implied that you can only invest mental power in one implement for each school. It only cares that you have an implement. If you have 2 implements it does not ask you what school it is. It just asks "does it have mental focus invested in it? y/n. If yes gain resonant power, if no you don't". It is that simple.


Chess Pwn wrote:

When is the occultist EVER SELECTING SCHOOLS?

Occultist wrote:
An occultist can select an implement school more than once in order to learn additional spells from the associated school.

^ The occultist "selects" an implement school instead of "learning" it when he chooses the same school for another implement. How did you skim over that? that's why all the stuff that mentions "when he learns" stuff doesnt apply the second time he selects his implement. How did you miss that? that's why i've given up trying to convince you, because whenever you post stuff a HUGE amount of it is irrelevant thanks to this context and i have to spend ages putting it back into context. Why did you think i kept pointing it out?

And under the pretense of clarity, we were discussing whether the implement or the implement school is the source of resonant powers and focus powers:

occultist wrote:
Each implement school also grants a base focus power.

Note: it says implement school, not implement. Just in case that changes your opinion of the powers coming from the implement...

Combine that with:
occultist wrote:
the implement gains the resonant power of its implement school

It's entirely up for debate on whether the occultist can gain the same ability twice.

Put simply following your interpretation of the rules we get to:
x= implement school, y1=implement 1, y2=implement 2 z=occultist
x is the source of the power, it gives it to y1 and y2, they in turn give it to the occultist.

What is up for debate here is whether or not we can gain it twice (one from each implement) because the implements BECOME the source, or we cannot because the implement school REMAINS the source.


NO. NO. NO! NO!! NO!!! Do you seriously not read anything other people are posting?

It says you can select an implement school more than once. WHEN DID YOU SELECT IT THE FIRST TIME? HOW ARE YOU SELECTING IT MORE THAN ONCE IF YOU NEVER SELECTED IT IN THE FIRST PLACE? (IF YOU'VE ALREADY SELECTED IT TO "LEARN" IT THE FIRST TIME THEN THERE'S NO DIFFERENCE WHEN YOU SELECT IT AGAIN)

There must be a time you're selecting implement schools for you to be able to select it more than once.

If at lv2 I'm not selecting evocation to learn but instead am "learning" evocation Then there's never a time that the occultist is selecting implements school for him to select an implement school more than once. So if I'm only "learning" evocation and not selecting evocation to learn,

me wrote:

When is the occultist EVER SELECTING SCHOOLS?

If you're not selecting a school to learn when it says "occultist learns to use two implement schools." But instead we are only "learning" then we never have a chance to select an implement school more than once because we are never selecting implement schools.

Like I seriously had previously explained WHY I was asking that question. BUT since it seems you either can not make basic inferences as to what is being discussed it OR you choose to ignore anything points brought up by our view and refuse to address said points, I'm not sure how much of a point there is trying to discuss this with you as you currently don't seem to be trying to actually discuss this.

EDITED


Chess Pwn wrote:
NO. NO. NO! NO!! NO!!! Do you seriously not read anything other people are posting?

You seem to be confused and angry: let me help, the first time you select an implement of the transmutation school you learn the associated implement school, complete with the abilities of that school, resonant powers and all them goodies.

The second time you gain an implement of the transmutation schools you are selecting that school as per the:
occultist wrote:
An occultist can select an implement school more than once in order to learn additional spells from the associated school.

section. I am merely pointing out that the choice of word could have been deliberate on the part of the developer.

---

Oh, and one last thing:

Chess Pwn wrote:
it seems you either can not make basic inferences as to what is being discussed it OR you choose to ignore anything points brought up by our view and refuse to address said points, I'm not sure how much of a point there is trying to discuss this with you as you currently don't seem to be trying to actually discuss this.

Not to contradict you or anything, but my last post has a wonderful section making concessions to your point of view and moving on to the next logic question up for debate, i know this is the internet, but please try to remain civil and entertain the discussion accordingly. Though you seem to have overlooked that part in favor of your rant.

A refresher to get us back on track:

SillyString wrote:

Put simply following your interpretation of the rules we get to:

x= implement school, y1=implement 1, y2=implement 2 z=occultist
x is the source of the power, it gives it to y1 and y2, they in turn give it to the occultist.

What is up for debate here is whether or not we can gain it twice (one from each implement) because the implements BECOME the source, or we cannot because the implement school REMAINS the source.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

You are wrong. Chess Pawn and the others are correct.

Accept it, and move on.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

The implement is what gives the Occultist it's powers. Without the implement you don't gain access to the implement's spells, or resonant powers.

Plain and simple.


captain yesterday wrote:

You are wrong. Chess Pawn and the others are correct.

Accept it, and move on.

No problem with that if I am, just would like them to stop repeating the stuff that doesnt actually address the specific issues I am attempting to get to the bottom of. The problem is that everything that is being said is being misinterpreted on his side, and he's fixating on only part of the question.

Edit: Before anyone posts anything about how i'm no doubt misinterpreting stuff, that goes without saying, and that's why i'm looking for someone to clarify and thereby convince me.

---

The only thing i'd like to know at this moment is to find a ruling on this:

SillyString wrote:

Put simply following your interpretation of the rules we get to:

x= implement school, y1=implement 1, y2=implement 2 z=occultist
x is the source of the power, it gives it to y1 and y2, they in turn give it to the occultist.

What is up for debate here is whether or not we can gain it twice (one from each implement) because the implements BECOME the source, or we cannot because the implement school REMAINS the source.

---

captain yesterday wrote:

The implement is what gives the Occultist it's powers. Without the implement you don't gain access to the implement's spells, or resonant powers.

Plain and simple.

But the rules clearly state that "the implement gains the resonant power of its implement school". Given that when a player gains something from a feat, the source is the feat. So is the source of the resonant power the implement, or the implement school because the implement gained it from the school?

(By the way, this whole thing is purely academic, I dont have any vested interesting in the outcome of the discussion.)

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