Occultist Implements & Resonant powers


Rules Questions

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Gulthor wrote:
If that all follows and makes sense to you (can't see why it wouldn't, it's all extremely clear RAW), then you must accept that a character can benefit from multiple Enhancement bonuses to different ability scores, and that means that if the Occultist *doesn't* hand off the implement, then they gain a +2 enhancement bonus to Str and Dex.

Oh I agree 2 different characters can gain a benefit from the same school power (even with different stats) if he passes out the implement, I just dont agree that a single character can gain the same named transmutation resonant power again and benefit from it twice, because he's already accessing it through the first implement and i thought generally abilities with the same name don't stack with eachother unless specified that they do.

Dont worry though, I'm not being completely closed-minded about this, and if we can find something that addresses this concern and overrules the best current source of RAI we have (being the paizo supported hero lab rules, unfortunately) then i'll be more than happy to switch sides.

(and yes, I know it wouldnt be optimised to be able to do this anyway, this is just in the interest of discussion and ensuring clarity of the rules)

PS: 100 post thread, achievement unlocked.

Dark Archive

Please stop pretending the HeroLab is a rules reference in any way shape or form.

Someone sits down with the book and starts inputting things, usually in a hurry. There are lots of things that don't work/didn't work for long periods of time. There are lots of interactions that, due to the way the information is referenced and input in HeroLab, are unintended or incorrect.

Did you know that Knife Master was broken until recently, always showing d6s for Sneak Attack?

Planar Focus was adding Cold to Weapon Damage, when it's an effect that only works when someone hits you.

Fate's Favored may still be broken and not giving bonuses on every luck bonus.

Mesmerists can implant one trick, an additional at 5, and another at every 4 levels after that. There was a stray '+1' in there somewhere indicating an extra trick that could be implanted.

Country Folk was marked as PFS legal until last October - looooooooong after it was introduced to Pathfinder and banned from PFS.

People work on HeroLab. Likely one person made the Occultist implementation in HeroLab. It was not the developer, it was probably not someone who discussed it with the developer, they made a quick interpretation and implementation that might be wrong. Maybe nobody tested that exact combination until now, maybe people didn't read it themselves and just took it for granted that HeroLab was right - it's not. Often.

But that's how it gets better - above are not even half of the things I've reported to HeroLab, to improve it, to see how they got to their interpretation.

HeroLab does not have any weight or bearing on rules interpretation, period, and have been known to even ignore certain clarifications that, while they seemed obviously wrong, it didn't match the interpretation whoever was on the other side of the pipes. Not because they had any sort of developer backing, but because they disagreed and interpreted differently. It happens.


^ Yes, that's why i said "unfortunately".

Back to the problem at hand:

SillyString wrote:
I just dont agree that a single character can gain the same named transmutation resonant power (Physical Enhancement (Su)) again and benefit from it twice, because he's already accessing it through the first implement and i thought generally abilities with the same name (Physical Enhancement (Su)) don't stack with eachother unless specified that they do.

Discuss the bold.

Edit: edited for clarity @14:47GMT (You guys are really close to converting me)

Dark Archive

The actual bonus is an enhancement bonus. You can have enhancement bonuses to different stats. I know of nothing that says the same 'ability with the same name' doesn't stack, so I have no reason to assume that holding two implements suddenly causes one to stop working.


Keith Apperson wrote:
The actual bonus is an enhancement bonus. You can have enhancement bonuses to different stats. I know of nothing that says the same 'ability with the same name' doesn't stack, so I have no reason to assume that holding two implements suddenly causes one to stop working.

Well there'd be nothing sudden about it, and what kind of bonus the ability gives is irrelevant at this time, its merely a question of whether or not you can benefit from the same named ability twice. I always got the impression that you could not unless it stated you could, based on pathfinder's permissive rules... But if we can find a definitive quote either way, it would please me greatly.

SillyString wrote:
I just dont agree that a single character can gain the same named transmutation resonant power (Physical Enhancement (Su)) again and benefit from it twice, because he's already accessing it through the first implement and i thought generally abilities with the same name (Physical Enhancement (Su)) don't stack with eachother unless specified that they do.

Discuss the bold.

(We are getting really close to an answer here people, lets not get side tracked)


I mean, i'll start us off with the first quote from gaining abilities of the same name from hybrid classes:

Quote:
While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified.

I'll continue looking for more things like this that are on more general topics, because I know this wont be enough to convince you (and probably rightly so)

So bear with me before you start with the "that doesnt reference abilities from the same class though!" and "It isnt the same!" or other such things.

(Still post if you find anything specifically saying "unless otherwise stated, you can gain the benefit of a named ability more than once")


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

You can be under multiple copies of the same effect more than once. Usually it doesn't do anything.

One cleric can cast Bull's Strength on you twice. It doesn't stack (same enhancement bonus to Str), but each I stance of the spell has to be dispelled separately.

Two bards can both be signing Inspire Courage, but the benefits are the same Morale bonus, so they don't stack numerically, but if one bard goes unconscious, the other effecr is still there.

You can wear one Ring of Energy Protection (Fire) and another ring of Energy Protection (Acid) and get the benefits from both even though they're both Rings of Energy Protection.

One implement's resonant power is Physical Prowess (Dex) +2 and the other implement's resonant power is Physical Prowess (Str) +2. So two different effects coming from two different objects.

Likely not intended, but technically legal.


Blake's Tiger wrote:

One implement's resonant power is Physical Prowess (Dex) +2 and the other implement's resonant power is Physical Prowess (Str) +2. So two different effects coming from two different objects.

Likely not intended, but technically legal.

Ah, so the ability's name gets modified based on the bonus it gives? I didnt know that...

I'm only thinking of things like gaining the same domain from different sources and it not stacking. And the aforementioned quote in my previous post... I'm not quite convinced yet.

(if anyone wants to contribute, please read the bold "discuss" text in the earlier post for context.)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

It's like Resist Energy or Mutagen. Only in the case of Mutagen, they callex out that you can't drink more than one at a time.

Plus, the implements, once invested with focus, act like magic items rather than class abilities.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

If you were a cleric with the Air Domain and you took a hypothetical PrC that granted you the Air Domain specificLly without the usual caveats about domains, you would have two instances of the Air Domain, but since they are identical, you get no benefit. If the PrC gave you a selection of one from a list of domains without the usuL caveat about domains, you could gain a 3rd domain you didn't have.


Well, I think I'm just about convinced, IF you can gain the benefit of the same named ability twice.

It seems bizarre to me that you can, given the permissive rules pathfinder usually sticks to, and someone with hero lab should probably report it as a bug for them to check with paizo. A lot of the wording in the class seems a little odd to me now, but i'm ok with that.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

From a software perspective, there are reasons it was more convenient for the developer of HeroLab to implement it the way they did. Stacking two stats of Physical Enhancement is a relatively rare case (no other resonant powers can stack to my knowledge). Putting in the exception for the transmutation school was likely overlooked or a low priority.


Before i go, i keep finding quotes like these all over the internet, is it safe to say that they are unfounded?

Quote:
in 3.X, Pathfinder, and 4e, bonuses from sources of the same name never stack - so, for example, two Haste spells won't double the dodge bonus to your armor class.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
SillyString wrote:
Before i go, i keep finding quotes like these all over the internet, is it safe to say that they are unfounded?
Quote:
in 3.X, Pathfinder, and 4e, bonuses from sources of the same name never stack - so, for example, two Haste spells won't double the dodge bonus to your armor class.

No, the quote is correct. Both I stances of Haste give you identical bonuses and do not stack. But you would have 2 instances of Haste and each with it's own duration and dispel check.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
SillyString wrote:
Before i go, i keep finding quotes like these all over the internet, are they unfounded?
Quote:
in 3.X, Pathfinder, and 4e, bonuses from sources of the same name never stack - so, for example, two Haste spells won't double the dodge bonus to your armor class.

Never is a strong word. Usually it is the case, but there are exceptions. Based on this faq I have the understanding that only overlapping bonuses don't stack. If enhancement bonuses stacked, you couldn't have two implements of Strength for a total +4 bonus. That would be stacking from the same source. But, a belt of Str and boots of Dex is fine because they are different effects.


Blake's Tiger wrote:
No, the quote is correct. Both I stances of Haste give you identical bonuses and do not stack. But you would have 2 instances of Haste and each with it's own duration and dispel check.
Thats odd, because
haste wrote:
A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.

Those are all untyped bonuses (or dodge) and they always stack, there's no text on the spell that says they are exempt from this, (in fact it only states that you dont get the multiple attacks stacking) you are saying they dont stack anyway?

"Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses."


Blake's Tiger wrote:

It's like Resist Energy or Mutagen. Only in the case of Mutagen, they callex out that you can't drink more than one at a time.

Plus, the implements, once invested with focus, act like magic items rather than class abilities.

Resist Energy is really kind of the perfect example.

You can have multiple instances of Resist Energy active on you at the same time, *AND* gain the benefits of both spells, as long as they are keyed to different energy types.

You can be under the effect of both Resist Energy (Cold) and Resist Energy (Fire) and you will have cold and fire resistance.

Dark Archive

You're looking for 'Combining Spell Effects' under the Magic section of the CRB, which applies to Spells but not to Abilities. Can't link direct right now, but: PRD Magic page


All i keep coming back to is things like:

Quote:

"Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

from the rules, which state the opposite of what you're saying, but maybe that's been errata'd and i dont know...

It's under the context of spells, but then again so are all your examples.
Also, why would it bother stating:

Quote:

Different Bonus Names

The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types.

if it was assumed same named stuff stacked too?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

That's referring to variable results, like the Temp HP from the Aid spell. Varying results is not different effects. Haste was FAQ'd (and I absense of that, yes, RAW it would stack on itself).

Edit: or the confusion spell

Dark Archive

A bit of clarification from a errata, perhaps not exactly what we're looking for: FAQ on Evil Eye and effects stacking from Question on Resist Energy Stacks.


Alrighty then, well i'd be significantly happier with a link to an FAQ or something stating that the same ability with the same name can grant its benefit twice, but I understand that it's a pretty rare circumstance.

--- To recap to my previous post:

Well, I think I'm just about convinced that you can gain the benefit of the same named ability twice.

It seems bizarre to me that you can, given the permissive rules pathfinder usually sticks to, and someone with hero lab should probably report it as a bug for them to check with paizo. A lot of the wording in the class seems a little odd to me now, but i'm ok with that.

PS: Thanks for the evil eye effects stacking link! That's the bit of information i've been looking for, a perfect example of being effected by the same named ability more than once on different attributes! (albeit in hostile form) Keith Apperson, thanks for finding that, ignore what it says above, im 100% convinced. I'm taking back captain's awesome points, and handing them to you.

(I'm very glad I didnt get smug like captain yesterday now, not being a dick paid off and I get to retain some dignity.)

Based on my interpretation now, i'd really love someone submitting a bug to hero lab regarding this.

Thanks to everyone for participating in the last 120 posts to whittle down the nitty gritty of each part of the rules, I shall proceed to never play the occultist in this way, but now it'll be because its pretty suboptimal and not because it doesnt make sense to me.


SillyString wrote:

All i keep coming back to is things like:

Quote:

"Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

from the rules, which state the opposite of what you're saying, but maybe that's been errata'd and i dont know...

It's under the context of spells, but then again so are all your examples.
Also, why would it bother stating:

Quote:

Different Bonus Names

The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types.

if it was assumed same named stuff stacked too?

Actually, that quoted text would be useful for the opposite point. They aren't the same effect with differing results. They're *different* effects.

What the quoted text means is that the temporary hit points from aid and false life don't stack. They're the same effect (temporary hit points) with different results.

Same goes for multiple instances of Resist Energy against Fire - only the most powerful or most recent will be in effect - the effects don't stack.

But Resist Energy (Cold) has a different effect than Resist Energy (Fire), so the same effect rules don't apply.


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Shhh Gulthor, just bask in the warm glow of satisfaction, for I have been converted.

(harps heard in background)

God it feels good to get some clarity thanks to those FAQ links you guys just posted.


Keith Apperson wrote:
A bit of clarification from a errata, perhaps not exactly what we're looking for: FAQ on Evil Eye and effects stacking from Question on Resist Energy Stacks.

Oh, that Evil Eye example is *beautiful*. Nice find.

Again, though, let's not get so preoccupied with whether we could that we not stop to think if we *should.*

It's a terrible option, imo, regardless of its viability.


SillyString wrote:

All i keep coming back to is things like:

Quote:

"Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

from the rules, which state the opposite of what you're saying, but maybe that's been errata'd and i dont know...

This is saying that sometimes you roll to see how strong something is. So lets say bull's str was a roll a 1d6, add this number as an enhancement. So if you had 3 bull's str, 2, 3, 6 the first two are irrelevant since the +6 is the highest bonus.

SillyString wrote:

It's under the context of spells, but then again so are all your examples.

Also, why would it bother stating:
Quote:

Different Bonus Names

The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types.

if it was assumed same named stuff stacked too?

It could be meaning two different castings when it says different spells. bull's str is spell 1 and the other bull's str is spell 2. they are the same spell, but are also their own different spell instances.

Dark Archive

I don't think it's a terrible idea at all if you're handing implements off. 2nd level having a Dex implement yourself (say you're a bow user) and handing your Barbarian or Fighter a Strength implement is a huge boon to your party. If you're a full buff specialist, you cast a buff spell then start handing off the implements (cause you don't need them for casting anymore) - 2nd level you're usually carrying 1k-4k worth of bonuses easy.

Also, more Transmutation spells is always awesome.


Oh, hi Chess Pwn. Blake's Tiger and Keith Apperson managed to convert me with their explanations and quotes. (we managed to pinpoint the exact part of the rules that was causing the misconception, and clarified it) So now i'm on your "side" of the interpretation. I apologize for not being convinced by your posts, however.

Now i'm just hoping nobody pops up to destroy my understanding of named ability stacking, or the occultist's resonant power source.

@ keith Apperson, no not too much of a bad idea you're right, not optimal, but if your implement takes the form of a weapon, you could be the group's magical walking armory. And that's pretty cool both thematically and functionally. Invest points into craft skills and dub yourself "The Armorer" or "The Blacksmith".

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