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But that's exactly why you don't pull at the game strings. In real life you don't gain experience or talent with a craft by hunting. You do so with dedicated training and only gain it for that skill and a few other skills used in the process. You also improve skills just theoretically by reading or watching instructions to know what you are doing.
Well, you might get some experience. There is a difference between a person that has spent training in dojo for 10 years but never got into a real fight and someone that has been in living on the battlefield for 3 years and face life and death countless times. The person that only trained might know the vital points, but he has never given a proper strike at them, while the person on the battlefield has stabbed those points dozens of times and knows exactly when the strike is too shallow.
But with general mastery and technique...yeah, you are better off with proper training. Actual combat is there to give it context and help forge your mentality.
Maybe we can label experience as that- actually putting your training into proper context. An elf might ahve had a ton of training, but he never actually put it into proper practices over those 20 years in training. So he needs to actually feel the pressure of a real fight before it all begins to click.
first of all you guys seem to think these guys are sitting in a bar smoking elf weed and giggling their days away. they are not they are out keeping pace with their fellow humans then their fellow human's children then grand children.
Who are?
Like, I'm really curious: in this case, who is thinking elves don't do anything, and which elves would be trying to keep up with their fellows' children and grandchildren?
Generally, the thread has started with broaching the potentially-weird concept of elves that are a century old that, on the surface, seem no more capable than humans of 1.6 decades, but then have a power-explosion that keeps pace with those same humans from pretty much no where. It's trying to understand and/or make sense of that.
i understand that driven elves would rare.
Doesn't that counter the absolute-seeming statement in your sentence immediately above this one?
That said, this doesn't even need to be a thing - at least, no more of a thing than the (relatively rare) driven humans.
and that some of those would be unlucky and face a monster that would use his or her skull for tea pot.
This is kind of irrelevant beyond noting that "adventurers do dangerous things." which is true of all races, equally.
What this doesn't answer, however, is "Why aren't the elves just better at everything?" (which, when compared first level-to-first level, they actually are).
and a fighter rogue bard is not going to forget that he can cast spells or that he can pick locks or avoid traps or sing his enemies into madness as he cops them to bits since he is and has been using those skills for the last 300 years.
... why has he been using those skills for the last 300 years?
What we're talking about is, effectively, "Why, in-canon, would elves have equal-to-low levels, despite their longer lives, compared to humans."
The answers are pretty self-evident, given that James Jacobs weighed in: the elves are fewer in number, so though they have a relatively higher percentage of their people of higher levels, the humans outnumber them in such vast quantities that the higher-level elves can't really compete.
()
That said, it doesn't cover all cases - why do elves start at 110 years old, while humans start at 15?
Several answers have been generated that are generally consistent with Golarion lore (though might clash with other specific campaign settings), that allow for the Core rules to be followed, without really causing elves to experience either mental or physical retardation in early life, undergo severe trauma, or have similar circumstances.
stop assuming npc quality and think hero driven. the guys and gals legends are made of. or vice versa.....
That's fine for adventurers. That is, in fact, an admission: once an elf starts adventuring, they're basically on par with their fellow humans.
The problems for many lie in the difference in elves' age, and how to reconcile that.
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first of all you guys seem to think these guys are sitting in a bar smoking elf weed and giggling their days away. they are not they are out keeping pace with their fellow humans then their fellow human's children then grand children. i understand that driven elves would rare. and that some of those would be unlucky and face a monster that would use his or her skull for tea pot. and a fighter rogue bard is not going to forget that he can cast spells or that he can pick locks or avoid traps or sing his enemies into madness as he cops them to bits since he is and has been using those skills for the last 300 years. stop assuming npc quality and think hero driven. the guys and gals legends are made of. or vice versa.....
Short version of Tacticslion's post (which I entirely agree with):
The Elves who are that driven are, in fact, high level. That's mostly where high level elven NPCs come from.
Such elves are more common as a percentage of the elven population than high level humans are as a percentage of the human population.
However, given the small number of elves as compared to humans, that's still a relatively small number of individuals compared to all the high level humans.
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I always figured the agelessness of D&D/PF elves was less eternal youth than "never get all prune faced and wrinkly." But the aging mods are totally weird; given the gains to Int, Wis and Cha, senility and dementia just aren't a consideration for any race, ever.
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I always figured the agelessness of D&D/PF elves was less eternal youth than "never get all prune faced and wrinkly." But the aging mods are totally weird; given the gains to Int, Wis and Cha, senility and dementia just aren't a consideration for any race, ever.
Well, this is also a feature of the source material from which D&D was drawn, such as the Arthurian legends or the Tolkien stories. Even humans and hobbits never become senile or demented; they just age gracefully until they pass on. Noble kings either died peacefully in their sleep or were killed heroically on the battlefield; ignoble kings were defeated and either died ignominiously in exile or were killed on the battlefield during their defeat. Remember that "dementia" was not formally described in the medical literature until the 20th century.
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I'm inclined to adopt some kind of general vague rule in the future regarding non-adventuring NPCs (i.e. after a few years your levels slowly morph into NPC Class Levels due to inaction and lack of practice).
Elves with hundreds of years of age would fall in that category, but those the PCs meet could in theory have gotten back into dangerous activities like murder investigations and adventuring, so their original adventuring levels would be 'reactivated' after a few weeks (time formula TBD...)
I always figured the agelessness of D&D/PF elves was less eternal youth than "never get all prune faced and wrinkly." But the aging mods are totally weird; given the gains to Int, Wis and Cha, senility and dementia just aren't a consideration for any race, ever.Well, this is also a feature of the source material from which D&D was drawn, such as the Arthurian legends or the Tolkien stories. Even humans and hobbits never become senile or demented; they just age gracefully until they pass on. Noble kings either died peacefully in their sleep or were killed heroically on the battlefield; ignoble kings were defeated and either died ignominiously in exile or were killed on the battlefield during their defeat. Remember that "dementia" was not formally described in the medical literature until the 20th century.
True enough, it's just weird how the mental ability score age modification gains outpace the physical ability score losses. Or maybe I'm just complaining because the aging mods have a much more direct effect on play post 3e, with skills linked to ability scores.
Hell don't ask me, my preference is to create a character with the age in mind, rather than add another set of modifiers to the character creation process. Want to be old and feeble? Fine, you're old and Str is your dump stat. Want to be young and impatient? Fine, you're young and Wis is your dump stat.
True enough, it's just weird how the mental ability score age modification gains outpace the physical ability score losses.
I'm curious what you mean, here, as, from my read, I'm pretty sure that's not true.
As an example, a middle age gains +1 to mental and -1 to physical... an even split; an old age gains another +1 to mental (total +2) and a -2 to physical (total -3)... a demonstrative net-loss; a venerable gains +1 to mental (total +3) and a -3 to physical (total -6)... a rather impressively one-sided loss. It's a grand total of -6 to ability scores, the same as being cursed.
If you mean the utility of what is gained exceeds what is lost, that is very relative - most creatures in the world would not find having a -6 to physical ability scores for a +3 to mental ones a fair trade. Specifically, only those who not only have magical abilities, but are focused on them to an intense degree, would see that as an advantage, and even then, they become exceptionally fragile.
That said...
I always figured the agelessness of D&D/PF elves was less eternal youth than "never get all prune faced and wrinkly." But the aging mods are totally weird; given the gains to Int, Wis and Cha, senility and dementia just aren't a consideration for any race, ever.
Well, this is also a feature of the source material from which D&D was drawn, such as the Arthurian legends or the Tolkien stories. Even humans and hobbits never become senile or demented; they just age gracefully until they pass on. Noble kings either died peacefully in their sleep or were killed heroically on the battlefield; ignoble kings were defeated and either died ignominiously in exile or were killed on the battlefield during their defeat. Remember that "dementia" was not formally described in the medical literature until the 20th century.
... all true, but, in my mind, I always explained it away as the aging effectively failing fortitude saves against genetic or other non-curable diseases. What that means is that, yes, they get "better" mentally, hypothetically, but their bodies fail them, causing their minds to fail as well.
But that's just my interpretation.
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I'd debate that Tolkien didn't have dementia in his stories. See Bilbo post-Shire, and Theoden pre-war (though the latter is coded as the influence of Grima, and definitely isn't as severe as Bilbo). Having lost a relative to Alzheimer's, I see a lot of it in disoriented, forgetful Bilbo.
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True enough, it's just weird how the mental ability score age modification gains outpace the physical ability score losses.I'm curious what you mean, here, as, from my read, I'm pretty sure that's not true.
Actually, Tactics, what I meant there was the opposite of what I wrote. Exactly the sort of age related lapse that 3e/PF doesn't account for in the aging modifiers! :P
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Elves "Take 20" to do everything as gracefully as possible, so everything takes 20 times as long, including stuff that would get you to level up.
When adventuring, they don't have that luxury, which is why they level up just as quickly as everyone else.
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I'd debate that Tolkien didn't have dementia in his stories. See Bilbo post-Shire, and Theoden pre-war (though the latter is coded as the influence of Grima, and definitely isn't as severe as Bilbo). Having lost a relative to Alzheimer's, I see a lot of it in disoriented, forgetful Bilbo.
It mainly had to do with the fact that Bilbo (And Frodo)'s lifespan was extended by the One Ring, and everything that drew support from the One Ring started to ebb when it was destroyed.
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I'd debate that Tolkien didn't have dementia in his stories. See Bilbo post-Shire, and Theoden pre-war (though the latter is coded as the influence of Grima, and definitely isn't as severe as Bilbo). Having lost a relative to Alzheimer's, I see a lot of it in disoriented, forgetful Bilbo.It mainly had to do with the fact that Bilbo (And Frodo)'s lifespan was extended by the One Ring, and everything that drew support from the One Ring started to ebb when it was destroyed.
... and Théoden is obviously the result of Grìma's leechcraft and ultimately of Saruman's foul sorcery. By contrast, Sméagol shows no signs of mental decay despite being centuries older than Bilbo -- but he dies before the effects of the destruction of the Ring are known.
Yeah, I stand by what I wrote.
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Tolkien did mention dementia, although not by name, in describing the corruption of the later Numenorean kings, who tried to live beyond their natural lifespans and became senile and "unmanned".
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Tolkien did mention dementia, although not by name, in describing the corruption of the later Numenorean kings, who tried to live beyond their natural lifespan and became senile and "unmanned".
Again, this isn't natural aging, but is the unnatural result of foul sorcery.
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Tolkien did mention dementia, although not by name, in describing the corruption of the later Numenorean kings, who tried to live beyond their natural lifespans and became senile and "unmanned".
He was referring to Kings that held onto their thrones long past the time they should have passed them to their sons. How they clung to life long past the point where it was worth living.
^That's what I'm talking about.
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I personally wonder why the elves haven't wiped out all the humans. Given how the Races of Golarion speaks to the humans emergence leading to conflict that, "drove elves from their land." Followed by humans causing Earthfall, Humans being at the center of most of the BBEGs of the APs, nations of humans cutting deals with Devils, Witch Queens, and bumbling into opening up the Worldwound. If I were an Elf king I imagine containment of these "human cockroaches" would be the best option if not outright genocide. Clearly humans keep mucking things up, why wouldn't you want to control them?
I personally wonder why the elves haven't wiped out all the humans. Given how the Races of Golarion speaks to the humans emergence leading to conflict that, "drove elves from their land." Followed by humans causing Earthfall, Humans being at the center of most of the BBEGs of the APs, nations of humans cutting deals with Devils, Witch Queens, and bumbling into opening up the Worldwound. If I were an Elf king I imagine containment of these "human cockroaches" would be the best option if not outright genocide. Clearly humans keep mucking things up, why wouldn't you want to control them?
They tried. :)
Unfortunately, the book I can best recommend for this is one of the more controversial about Golarion elves. Elves of Golarion says a lot of things about elves. More largely, this is probably the biggest reason elves shouldn't be a PC race.