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So, in case you've somehow missed the incredible Bestiary 5, allow me to introduce the phenomenal zygomind (not yet available on the PRD).
Now, first, let me say: this thing is awesome. I mean, I hate it (because it's terrifying), but it's awesome, nonetheless! So cool~!
However... how did this get a rating of CR 18?
Going only by general monster rules, while its hit points are about right for a CR 17, it's saves are CR 18-19, it's AC is quite low (at the CR 10-range), and its attacks are CR 14 (with CR 9 damage! ... or CR 16, if you include the constrict as well; I've never really been sure about that)...
... it's good DC is literally off the chart (by five points), and it's "secondary" DC is CR 30.
Now, you might be able to hand-waive the averages of all of this*, but that... really doesn't reflect what a CR is supposed to be.
Now, drawing on this ancient post from way back when CR is supposed to reflect the expenditure of about 20% of a party's resources (seemingly common, but not directly expressed in the rules that I can tell) - but more specifically, an "average" APL should be = ~the party's APL... anything less is easy or even insignificant.
*
But is the Zygomind really "easy" for a party of level 19s?
Frankly, it entirely depends on two things: the environment and the range the party chooses to engage with the creature (which is determined by the environment).
At 300 ft in a nice, open plain (which is a possibility in "any temperate") it's not even a challenge. Give a paladin a longbow, a metric ton of arrows, and enjoy. Heck, gather a ton of low-level paladins, have them all smite "that thing" and let them pepper the sucker from 400+ feet at -6 range penalty (presupposing you allow them to see it from that far away*); this doesn't cost much, allows you to bypass the DR, and allows you to whittle that hp down (though be sure to make some marks nearby with really long-range spells so you know how far away it is, if it moves toward or away from you at its 5ft/rnd). An alternate possibility is simply grabbing a ton of wands of fireball** (at 11,250 gp a pop) and going to town. I mean, you'd need to use three each round to overcome that fast healing (on average), and you'd need to burn through about 24 charges on each of them (so about 33,750 gp for the initial; get back around 17,500 gp after re-sell).
*
**
So... that's really not so bad, right? I mean, at 18th level, 530k... that 33.75k is a drop in the bucket!
But the problem is... that's pretty much it. That's the only way anyone can reasonably approach this thing. A plain, wide-open field.
That DC is a real killer - literally, as well as figuratively, given that if you fail that, you're pretty much done for.
Let's compare the paladin, the paragon and posterchild of all "woah, 'dem saves" characters.
Good will saves, nets you a +11 at 18th. Shiny~!
Pumped up maximized charisma nets you a +12*. Woo~!
Spend some of that money on a nice save-booster~! Yeah~!
That nets a nice +28! Holy cow! ... v. a DC 36. I have to consistently roll an 8 or better every round within 300 ft.
That... that is insane.
I mean, I've spent a fortune** on making this happen. And what about everyone else?
Cleric and druids and similar high-will plus high-wisdom characters? They get that +28* as well ().
Anyone else? They're going to be needing loooooooooooots of luck. Even high-will non-wisdom characters only get around a +16 (), meaning they need natural twenties every round to avoid getting sucked into to the sweet embrace of the zygomind.
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**
But, you know, what we've described are characters that are really, truly, solidly built. These are semi-typical players who maximize most of their advantages.
But what does Paizo generally suppose most players will have?
Kyra, the poster-child for high-wisdom, high-will starts off with... a seventeen. At level twelve, she has... an 18. Even putting the bonus at sixteenth level into her wisdom (not guaranteed, since she didn't put either of the lower-level bonuses there) grabbing a circlet of wisdom +6 (again, not how she's built), iron will, and inherent bonuses to the max... she nets a 30 wisdom*, dropping her will save by 1 point, compared to our own, but indicating that she's not really expected to have that kind of save at 18th level. Seela, at least, fairs a little bit better. Presupposing she follows all of our advice (which she didn't, but, let's just say she's starting now) and ups her wisdom to niggle that extra will save benefit, she'd be able to juuuusssst about equal what I noted above (or surpass with iron will or extra wisdom boosts). Lini is also in a pretty good situation (though not quite ideal), as she's focused rather heavily on her wisdom.
*
... and that's it. None of the other iconics - either there, or printed elsewhere, to my knowledge - have either the build or even inclination toward it to face this thing at 18th level*.
*
Don't get me wrong. An arcane or divine caster could just avoid it, stay out of range, and spew long-range damage spells.
But that's a very boring combat. And that presupposes they have the range and ability to notice it... which this creature's write-up pretty expressly suggests against (by noting that it's surrounded by trees or in hills or whatever, granting it all kinds of cover or concealment).
It just begs the question... who is this monster for?
Paladins on an open field, and solo high level casters (although these would likely need several wand-adroit creatures or those with natural spell-casting helping them each round) are not a really a terribly interesting battle scenario.
Given the sharp decline of resources by level, placing this at a lower level is just asking for TPK.
Higher levels work much better because of these defenses, but even then, there's a significant problem, and the reason I find it hard to believe that this is a CR 18. It's the kind of thing that, despite how cool it is, makes me, as a GM, go, "Oohh~nononononono!" and just nope right on out of there.
It's effects aren't able to be defended against in any significant way other than brute numbers.
None of its abilities are "mind-affecting" despite requiring a will save and messing with the mind. None of them are a "sleep effect" despite causing sleep. Fascinate isn't a mind-affecting effect and neither (weirdly enough) is "mindscape" - heck, in the Occult Adventures it's not even clear the creature has to have a mind, from my reading (), though that'd make "plain sense" - it's the question of being able to, say, trick or destroy a golem or undead or vermin in a mindscape or not.
And here's a thing... if it doesn't affect mindless creatures, than it's unclear that the create greater mindscape spell-like ability actually does anything (considering the description specifically calls out the user); and said spell is a [mind-affecting] ability.
So... is this a sign that Paizo is moving away from all the descriptor-heavy rules-stuff and going more with a "loose" and "plain" approach to rules? Is Zygomind just not "clear" enough? Is this all the fevered rantings of a deluded lunatic () who can't read plain English? Are modestly equipped 20th level unbreakable [url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter]fighter elves the great bane of this class, or just another chump for the fire?
Is it all CR 18, or what? And if so... how?
To be clear, I think this thing is amazing, and I really want to be able to use it. I can easily just ignore the problems and smooth them over, but I'd like to understand the intent. As-written (in the normally codex-like descriptor language) it looks like the spell-like ability isn't usable, and the other special abilities kind of take over. In "plain English" I'd ignore those things and just presume... which is my tendency... but the other abilities don't specify, and there's all too often some design point I don't quite see.
Any takers? Ideas? Inspirations?
And check out that amazing bestiary~!
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You can ignore the fascinate ability if you are aware of the monster.
Then you just have to pass DC 29 will saves.
Any non suicidal character has a will save = level or greater. Thus a level 19 party should have a 55% chance to pass the save each time.
This thing is scary but a level 18 paladin could probably solo it.
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Archery isn't going to do much with its DR type and fast healing, Smiting doesn't do much as is neutral and not evil.
Long ranged CL 18 mindscape means youd best be able to nuke it to absolute death with magic or through its 20 magic/slashing dr and 20 fast healing because a 55% chance to pass saves means if it takes more than a few rounds your party will eventually fail one
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So if a tarrasque runs into a zygomind, who wins? Most money would be on the tarrasque, but this thing can produce a Seamless Reality.
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Well, the big thing is that as soon as you know it's a threat, the DC 36 Save becomes meaningless. Even retroactively. The DC 29 one still matters, but not that one.
So, if anyone makes the Save, the Fascinate ends pretty quick for everyone not already caught in the mindscape.
It has a really high chance of killing a single non-Paladin foe. Almost any single non-Paladin foe. But a group? Someone's gonna make the Save. And while you then might need to do the fight sans some party members, its fighting CR is low enough to make that feasible.
And anyone who gets hit by the aura and mindscaped is almost unharmed. So necessary resources to recover from the fight assuming you win are actually pretty low.
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Its bit off topic, but how large are colossal monsters anyway?
I mean, I heard they don't have upper limits and to my understanding they are "Enough big to have a dungeon inside them" big, but if that was the case how the heck they would fit a battlemap? ._.
Also, is it just me or isn't this clearly intended to be used in the "Players aren't aware they just stepped into Seamless Reality" way? Like, if players are aware of it from distance, then it isn't being used to its full effect.
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Actually its damage can be far above CR 18 monster: average of 19 points of damage per hit x 4 attacks gives 76 points of damage (appropriate for CR 15-16) but each hit has a really good chance of triggering constrict and increasing averaged damage to 152 (CR 23). Low hit chance make that unlikely, though.
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Its bit off topic, but how large are colossal monsters anyway?
I mean, I heard they don't have upper limits and to my understanding they are "Enough big to have a dungeon inside them" big, but if that was the case how the heck they would fit a battlemap? ._.
Also, is it just me or isn't this clearly intended to be used in the "Players aren't aware they just stepped into Seamless Reality" way? Like, if players are aware of it from distance, then it isn't being used to its full effect.
"When fully grown, a zygomind can reach a height of 500 feet, and its mycelium can stretch for 10 miles in all directions, comprising hundreds of tons of biomass. The main cage is usually 25–40 feet in diameter and weighs around 40,000 pounds."
GM: You see a gigantic, tree-like mushroom...
PCs: Ok, we are coming closer to see what is underneath that mushroom...
GM: Make Will saves!
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Also, is it just me or isn't this clearly intended to be used in the "Players aren't aware they just stepped into Seamless Reality" way? Like, if players are aware of it from distance, then it isn't being used to its full effect.
Well, yeah, if all of them fail. If any succeed at the save, the strange behavior of their comrades provides a pretty clear indication that something is wrong, allowing them to not get fascinated in future rounds.
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Its bit off topic, but how large are colossal monsters anyway?
I mean, I heard they don't have upper limits and to my understanding they are "Enough big to have a dungeon inside them" big, but if that was the case how the heck they would fit a battlemap? ._.
Also, is it just me or isn't this clearly intended to be used in the "Players aren't aware they just stepped into Seamless Reality" way? Like, if players are aware of it from distance, then it isn't being used to its full effect.
"When fully grown, a zygomind can reach a height of 500 feet, and its mycelium can stretch for 10 miles in all directions, comprising hundreds of tons of biomass. The main cage is usually 25–40 feet in diameter and weighs around 40,000 pounds."
GM: You see a gigantic, tree-like mushroom...
PCs: Ok, we are coming closer to see what is underneath that mushroom...
GM: Make Will saves!
*shrugs* Hey, they don't know that mushroom is a monster unless you tell to roll initiative.(or succeed really high knowledge roll for rare creature) Giant mushrooms sound like cool locales :D
Eh, maybe non full grown ones are still spread on large area. I mean, how else players might step on its space and be unaware of that? xD
Also, is it just me or isn't this clearly intended to be used in the "Players aren't aware they just stepped into Seamless Reality" way? Like, if players are aware of it from distance, then it isn't being used to its full effect.Well, yeah, if all of them fail. If any succeed at the save, the strange behavior of their comrades provides a pretty clear indication that something is wrong, allowing them to not get fascinated in future rounds.
Text does say "undetected zygomind". So I guess designer assumes that players don't automatically realize that cause of fascination is the mushroom.
Which does make sense in that monster sounds like it should be located somewhere where it will create undead victims for pcs to fight. So players would have something to distract them from big thing in background.
Actually its damage can be far above CR 18 monster: average of 19 points of damage per hit x 4 attacks gives 76 points of damage (appropriate for CR 15-16) but each hit has a really good chance of triggering constrict and increasing averaged damage to 152 (CR 23). Low hit chance make that unlikely, though.
Blarg. My bad! Thanks!
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Here's the problem with "combat" or "danger" breaking the fascinate: it doesn't matter. As soon as you fail that save, you're afflicted with the mindscape which means you no longer have a way to distinguish reality from fiction. Ever.
Mindscape is the real killer. Yes, things can be dangerous, but even knowing it's dangerous isn't going to get you to safety.
From what I'm reading, it looks like you have to save each round against the fascinate effect no matter what and thus are subject to the save against the mindscape each round. That's just asking for a host of people to roll a natural 1.
Again, this presuming it's a mind-affecting effect.
And... it's pretty clear that this thing is meant to be slightly obscured/difficult to get at.
What's more - each zombie has the sopporific spores. Not tooooooo dangerous, as one save gives you immunity for 24 hours and most of the zombies will be relatively harmless, but one hit and one failed save mean it's effectively "over" for a given character.
Still, recognizing the difference between the fascinate effect and dreamscape helps. But you're still sending APL 18 creatures v. a CR 30 (or 30+!) save per round.
EDITED: I've run a couple games at that level where people simply wouldn't make their saves - not because they'd suffer in any other part of the campaign, really, but because why would they have to?
And that's one of the things. Those DCs are so far in excess of anything that you're actually functionally expected to have at that level it's silly. 20 v. 31 and 16 v. 29. Granted the 20 and 16 are supposed to be minor obstacles at best, but... it's a difference of +11 and +13, respectively. An "epic" threat at that level is only supposed to be 25 and 20 - a difference of +6 and +9, respectively.
And that's, again, part of the the thing. Which of you would give a villain an instant-kill ability with a DC that's nine points higher than it's supposed to be, and go, "Yeah, that's fair. Hit points and AC is low, but this will possibly TPK, so it's fair." right?
Side note: doesn't paladin's smite ignore DR no matter what? Obviously Crits are out (plant), and extra damage is a no-go (non-evil), but I thought the DR could be ignored? EDIT: Yes, it does!
EDIT: BLARG THIS FORMATTING! PHHOOOOOONNNNEEE~! *shakes fist*
Actually its damage can be far above CR 18 monster: average of 19 points of damage per hit x 4 attacks gives 76 points of damage (appropriate for CR 15-16) but each hit has a really good chance of triggering constrict and increasing averaged damage to 152 (CR 23). Low hit chance make that unlikely, though.Blarg. My bad! Thanks!
~ ~ ~
Here's the problem with "combat" or "danger" breaking the fascinate: it doesn't matter. As soon as you fail that save, you're afflicted with the mindscape which means you no longer have a way to distinguish reality from fiction. Ever.
Mindscape is the real killer. Yes, things can be dangerous, but even knowing it's dangerous isn't going to get you to safety.
From what I'm reading, it looks like you have to save each round against the fascinate effect no matter what and thus are subject to the save against the mindscape each round. That's just asking for a host of people to roll a natural 1.
Again, this presuming it's a mind-affecting effect.
And... it's pretty clear that this thing is meant to be slightly obscured/difficult to get at.
What's more - each zombie has the sopporific spores. Not tooooooo dangerous, as one save gives you immunity for 24 hours and most of the zombies will be relatively harmless, but one hit and one failed save mean it's effectively "over" for a given character.
Still, recognizing the difference between the fascinate effect and dreamscape helps. But you're still sending APL 18 creatures v. a CR 30 (or 30+!) save per round.
I've run a few games at that level where people simply wouldn't make their saves.
Side note: doesn't paladin's smite ignore DR no matter what? Obviously Frits are out (plant), and extra damage is a no-go (non-evil), but I thought the DR could be ignored?
Re: smite, the zygomind is N.
Honestly, this seems like a "burn the forest" monster. Just set the countryside on fire and hope for the best.
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The kicker is that apparently there is no way to wake up from the Seamless Reality. A monster litterally sucking your organic material doesn't. So it's basically every round save vs istant death at CD 29. Sooner or later while walking 300 feets everyone will fail. And is not a mind effect, so you can't protect from it in any real way. Saving does not makes you immune for 24 hours like it should, and this is also true for the Fascinate. It's basically a "you'r f&%$ed" as soon as you set foot inside the 300 feets.
Re: smite, the zygomind is N.
Yes, but smite ignores DR (see my edited link in that post). Thus, if an 18th level paladin can deal more than 20 damage a round on average before running out of arrows (which should be doable, even without critical hits, with just normal arrows), you're golden.
Honestly, this seems like a "burn the forest" monster. Just set the countryside on fire and hope for the best.
Which is a problem. That is neither heroic, nor interesting.
The kicker is that apparently there is no way to wake up from the Seamless Reality. A monster litterally sucking your organic material doesn't. So it's basically every round save vs istant death at CD 29. Sooner or later while walking 300 feets everyone will fail. And is not a mind effect, so you can't protect from it in any real way. Saving does not makes you immune for 24 hours like it should, and this is also true for the Fascinate. It's basically a "you'r f&*@ed" as soon as you set foot inside the 300 feets.
Exactly. This is exactly it.
There are exceptionally few ways of ever getting out without destroying the monster (though it does specify in the write-up that if you kill the creature, you shatter the mindscape).
About the only one there is for sure, however, is the mindscape door... a mind-affecting effect which is also an illusion and phantasm... and provides a will save to the plant... which means the plant, being immune, is immune to the exactly one way to ever leave.
So you must: kill the monster, and hope you made the proper saves.
And for the record, if you don't know what a "veiled mindscape" (see the Seamless Reality ability) is*, it's basically a demiplane for your mind that looks, acts, and feels exactly like the real world, and kicks off as an effect that's so realistic; you don't even realize that it's happened.
*
So let's say you run up into battle against this thing. Yeah? Yeah.
- step one: notice that something is amiss
- step two: try to figure out why people are trance-walking that way
- - addendum 1:
- - addendum 2:
- step three: hope, pray, and beg that, by the time you find out that it's a zygomind, those dice the GM has been rolling behind the screen aren't your will saves*, because by then it's too late, and you and your team can literally never ever know for sure if you're ever out of the zygomind or not (and you probably aren't; especially if you think you aren't, and double-especially if you've either successfully destroyed it or the GM has to put in a Deus Ex Machina to rescue you from it
*
This is an attack on the players' sense of reality, not the characters'. Because either you end up with players who are super-frustrated and lose characters to a mindless plant foe because "oops, I got too close, enjoy the TPK" or you never reveal it to them. (Unless you're a bitter, spiteful GM, in which case... good luck!)
And here's the thing. Some tables may well enjoy this. That's fine, and it's definitely possible.
But as-written, this is a campaign-ending TPK'r with an eternal "well, who knows" attached that's not even remotely within it's CR range.
And a lot of the problems come from the fact that the zygomind is both mindless (and thus neutral by sheer technicality) and is a plant: these two different sides of the creature provide blanket immunity to the one way to escape a mindscape (and ensure that it can never be bargained or reasoned with, besides).
I mean, compare the lotus tree, a CR twenty from that same book. Said entity can do the exact-daggum-same thing as the zygomind, but it's, ultimately, able to be overcome. Why? Because its abilities aren't entirely at-will, and it has a mind (and thus can be reasoned with).
(The other example, a pit fiend, is actually a really solid by-the-book monster; so much so, it's hard to compare to the zygomind. Though it's worth noting, that any pit fiend aware that zygominds exist would freak the heck* out and flee afap, 'cause daaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnng, they can't rely on nat 20s all the time! And, you know, anything that could cause a lord of hell to wet itself with panicked fear should prooooooobably be more than CR 18.)
*
The problem with a zygomind is: I just can't see anywhere I'd ever put it in a campaign. Either it's a boring combat in the middle of an open field, or it's a desperate "the players can never be sure of reality again" kind of situation.
... unless, of course, you ignore the flavor text, and presuppose that everything is run off of create greater mindscape, in which case,
You must also create a method of exit from the mindscape when you cast this spell, and that method must be possible to achieve based on the traits of the mindscape, even if it is obscure or difficult. The GM decides whether a method of escape is reasonable. Anything that would be a reasonable method of waking from a dream during deep sleep could allow one to leave a mindscape.
and
You can also direct a number of believable creatures at a time equal to your caster level.
... make it trivially easy to ignore. Just interact with more than eighteen creatures at a time until you've shown whether or not you're in a mindscape, then do the reasonable thingy that lets you out.
Of course, the creature has a "haha, you jerk" ability, too...
Spore Explosion (Su)
When a zygomind is destroyed, it explodes in a cloud of ethereal spores that typically find their way back into space, sometimes floating along the solar winds for thousands of years before gravitating back toward a new bastion of intelligent life.
"Good job saving this area, hero... now another world is doomed thanks to you~!" is kind of a lousy reward...
... though it might be pretty awesome for a Call of Cthulu-style PF game, if you like those kinds of things.
It does seem to me that this is the kind of monster that's supposed to inspire the existential dread that other creatures should, but don't, really, akin to Mythos-like themes.
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I thought that this is less of boss battle monster and more of a "Hey, here is a really cool adventure" setup with PCs getting trapped inside mindscape and having certain amount of "days"(I guess time moves differently inside mind) time to get out with them exploring the matri- I mean mindscape and gm making up how they can get out. The Spore explosion "ability" makes it feel even less of monster and more of an adventure hook
Thats kinda what I feel about most colossal monsters though, it kinda feels like they don't belong on battlemap since stabbing colossal dragon on toe until it kneels over just sounds bizarre to me.
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"In this corner, the meanest, the baddest, the destroyer of cities and civilizations, let's give it up for our All Time Champion 'T'-rasque!"
"An' in this corner, sporting the Mycelium that Just Won't Quit Until You're Dead... ZYGOOOOMINNDDD!"
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I think i'll start filling all of my 5th level slots with Verdant mindscape doors now ;_;
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Tacticslion,
I think the way to handle the mindscape is as follows:
1. Yes, it follows the rules of Create Greater Mindscape where applicable.
2. So you get a save from inside the mindscape (DC 29) to discover the exit (running into a hole in the Zygomind itself is what I'd do, given that it otherwise copies the real world). But you have to interact with the mindscape in some way to identify that it's not real, and you have to know it's not real to identify the exit. Otherwise you have to decide to go through the (unknown) exit for some real world reason.
3. As far as Mindscape Door, I'd allow it. Technically the Zygomind can't even create a mindscape, because it's immune to mind affecting and has to enter its own mindscape. I'd say if it's able to create a mindscape its vulnerable to Mindscape Door. Which is level 2, so good luck beating its Will save reliably.
Of course, the usual rules of mindscapes don't really work, since presumably the Zygomind is still aware of what's going on around its physical body. So it's going to require GM fudging.
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Re: smite, the zygomind is N.Yes, but smite ignores DR (see my edited link in that post). Thus, if an 18th level paladin can deal more than 20 damage a round on average before running out of arrows (which should be doable, even without critical hits, with just normal arrows), you're golden.
Smite ignores DR, but Smite has no effect at all on non-evil targets.
If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.
This is a common mistake, because of the line on ignoring DR regardless of target. This means it bypasses DR even if it's not a Dragon, evil outsider, or Undead. The creature still needs to be evil or the smite has no effect.
Paladins are not any better against the zygomind than a warrior, except they have better saves against the mindscape.
Re: smite, the zygomind is N.Yes, but smite ignores DR (see my edited link in that post). Thus, if an 18th level paladin can deal more than 20 damage a round on average before running out of arrows (which should be doable, even without critical hits, with just normal arrows), you're golden.
Smite ignores DR, but Smite has no effect at all on non-evil targets.
If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.
This is a common mistake, because of the line on ignoring DR regardless of target. This means it bypasses DR even if it's not a Dragon, evil outsider, or Undead. The creature still needs to be evil or the smite has no effect.
Paladins are not any better against the zygomind than a warrior, except they have better saves against the mindscape.
Hm. Interesting. Thanks for that argument! I'll have to think about it!
Tacticslion,
I think the way to handle the mindscape is as follows:
1. Yes, it follows the rules of Create Greater Mindscape where applicable.
2. So you get a save from inside the mindscape (DC 29) to discover the exit (running into a hole in the Zygomind itself is what I'd do, given that it otherwise copies the real world). But you have to interact with the mindscape in some way to identify that it's not real, and you have to know it's not real to identify the exit. Otherwise you have to decide to go through the (unknown) exit for some real world reason.
3. As far as Mindscape Door, I'd allow it. Technically the Zygomind can't even create a mindscape, because it's immune to mind affecting and has to enter its own mindscape. I'd say if it's able to create a mindscape its vulnerable to Mindscape Door. Which is level 2, so good luck beating its Will save reliably.Of course, the usual rules of mindscapes don't really work, since presumably the Zygomind is still aware of what's going on around its physical body. So it's going to require GM fudging.
I tend to agree, however,
Technically the Zygomind can't even create a mindscape, because it's immune to mind affecting and has to enter its own mindscape.
... is problematic in this interpretation. Which goes to,
Of course, the usual rules of mindscapes don't really work, since presumably the Zygomind is still aware of what's going on around its physical body. So it's going to require GM fudging.
... here, which, you know, is why I asked the question initially: is Paizo moving away from relying on descriptors like that?
I'd say if it's able to create a mindscape its vulnerable to Mindscape Door. Which is level 2, so good luck beating its Will save reliably.
... which is another part of this problem. A DC 12+ versus a will of +16 doesn't mean too much. On average, it makes a 26 Will save. That means that, in order to reliably beat the thing, you need to pull a +14 bonus to your DCs - so spell focus and greater (gives a +2 DC) and a 34 (+12) in your relevant score?
I thought that this is less of boss battle monster and more of a "Hey, here is a really cool adventure" setup with PCs getting trapped inside mindscape and having certain amount of "days"(I guess time moves differently inside mind) time to get out with them exploring the matri- I mean mindscape and gm making up how they can get out. The Spore explosion "ability" makes it feel even less of monster and more of an adventure hook
Thats kinda what I feel about most colossal monsters though, it kinda feels like they don't belong on battlemap since stabbing colossal dragon on toe until it kneels over just sounds bizarre to me.
This is a really cool interpretation and I like it, but it also has problems because it can easily end exceptionally poorly and (unless handled with the right group of players) feel like the experience is cheapened somehow.
But it could be really great!
"In this corner, the meanest, the baddest, the destroyer of cities and civilizations, let's give it up for our All Time Champion 'T'-rasque!"
"An' in this corner, sporting the Mycelium that Just Won't Quit Until You're Dead... ZYGOOOOMINNDDD!"
If it's mind-affecting, Big T wins. If it's not, Big T goes down like a punk. Forever. :)
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I'd rule that mindscape door isn't targeting the zygomind directly, so it wouldn't trigger its immunity to mind-affecting (the saving throw is a special "see text" thing that it gets to do). That said, even if you rule that it needs verdant, a verdant mindscape door is easily in reach of a limited wish, or certainly a wish or miracle (so you can run the CorvusMask version without making an unofficial escape to the mindscape if they use those spells to escape, but the idea of bringing the adventure into the mindscape and then back out of it is definitely intended; the description indicates that time does flow differently "The cruel irony of the plant's trap is that these soldiers likely live the rest of their lives believing themselves victorious, forming memories of defeating the insidious fungus, returning home to their loving families, and eventually dying after a long and productive life, while in the real world the zygomind's mycelium sucks the nutrients from their helpless bodies and transforms them into undead minions."). Remember, a level 19 party has plenty of resources at their disposal, including 9th level spells (or at least scrolls if they don't have any clerics or wizards at all) and is very flexible; I wouldn't put my money on a zygomind against a level 19 party.
As others have said, the DC here that matters is the 29, which is only a few points high for its CR (and is probably on par with the DCs you'll see from, say, a CR 18 NPC wizard with spell foci in his favorite school), and it can't really do anything to you depending on the distance, so after the first round in range, you can always retreat beyond range and regroup. That said, the mindscape pulls in your minds according to the description and should be mind-affecting, while the fascinate/sleep might be physiological effects (I'll check the original file when I get to work; this seems like the tags might have been cut to copyfit).
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Mindscapes are Illusion (phantasms), which are by definition [mind-affecting]. Zygomind doesn't have much leverage against Tarrasque...
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Mindscapes are Illusion (phantasms), which are by definition [mind-affecting]. Zygomind doesn't have much leverage against Tarrasque...
That could be it; if the tag was redundant because of being definitionally true, that highly raises the chances of being cut to copyfit.
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Mindscape. Puh-lease. I live in my own little world all the time. Mostly sleeping. Dreaming. This thing can't use Mindscape on me because it's my natural state; it's like using fire on a fire elemental.
And I don't like mushrooms. Wherever this thing lives, I have no interest in it. Not even to C H O M P ! ! ! it. Not even a little. Yuck.
So call it a draw. It doesn't want me and I don't want it.
Awesome! Thanks, Mark! :D
That, alone, resolves a number of issues. Thank you~!
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Mindscapes are Illusion (phantasms), which are by definition [mind-affecting]. Zygomind doesn't have much leverage against Tarrasque...That could be it; if the tag was redundant because of being definitionally true, that highly raises the chances of being cut to copyfit.
Ah, I was responding to the comment about tarrasque before I even saw your post.
Create (greater) mindscape spell has [mind-affecting] tag.
The seamless reality ability itself does not specify the mind-affecting tag so it is a bit of question: is the mindscape produced by that ability the same mindscape as the one zygomind can create with its create greater mindscape spell-like ability or was your (royal plural Paizo designer "you") intent to create a fuge-like physiological state using the mindscape rules? I assume that the zygomind wouldn't get at-will create greater mindscape as a spell-like ability if it would be later, though.
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Side effect of this discussion. After rereading create mindscape spell I noticed that there is no actual rule preventing the caster(s) from layering mindscape-in-mindscape-in-mindscape, Inception-like. The spell description says that the mindscape is dismissed when the caster departs it... But does entering an embedded mindscape layered on the top of existing mindscape means you departed the mindscape underneath? I'd say "no".
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It has a really high chance of killing a single non-Paladin foe. Almost any single non-Paladin foe. But a group? Someone's gonna make the Save.It's downright ADORABLE the way you think the dice won't slaughter the party mercilessly.
Isnt it? It absolutely wrecks martials especially ones who don't have a focus in upping their CMD vs grapple.
That said I'm pretty sure by 18th level you can get some mind blank action on which changes the whole situation quite a bit.
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It has a really high chance of killing a single non-Paladin foe. Almost any single non-Paladin foe. But a group? Someone's gonna make the Save.It's downright ADORABLE the way you think the dice won't slaughter the party mercilessly.Isnt it? It absolutely wrecks martials especially ones who don't have a focus in upping their CMD vs grapple.
That said I'm pretty sure by 18th level you can get some mind blank action on which changes the whole situation quite a bit.
Out of curiosity, why do you think a whopping effective +3 to mind-affecting will saves against spells and effects will significantly change the situation for properly geared martials?
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Because it raises that 55% chance to pass the save to a 70% chance which is a fair bit better than the flip a coin they were looking at before.
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Re: smite, the zygomind is N.Yes, but smite ignores DR (see my edited link in that post). Thus, if an 18th level paladin can deal more than 20 damage a round on average before running out of arrows (which should be doable, even without critical hits, with just normal arrows), you're golden.
Smite ignores DR, but Smite has no effect at all on non-evil targets.
If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.
This is a common mistake, because of the line on ignoring DR regardless of target. This means it bypasses DR even if it's not a Dragon, evil outsider, or Undead. The creature still needs to be evil or the smite has no effect.
Paladins are not any better against the zygomind than a warrior, except they have better saves against the mindscape.
I suppose you need Insinuator Antipaladins, then. Let's rustle up a Suicide Squad.
You think Cthulhu could kill one?
Cthulhu could kill one without a doubt. It's immune to mind effecting and immune to ability damage, and it's impossible for the zygomind to make the save vs unspeakable presence, so it will be constantly staggered.
Cthulhu could kill one without a doubt. It's immune to mind effecting and immune to ability damage, and it's impossible for the zygomind to make the save vs unspeakable presence, so it will be constantly staggered.
Gotta admit: I kinda thought it was immune to staggered, but nope!
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Mindscape. Puh-lease. I live in my own little world all the time. Mostly sleeping. Dreaming. This thing can't use Mindscape on me because it's my natural state; it's like using fire on a fire elemental.
And I don't like mushrooms. Wherever this thing lives, I have no interest in it. Not even to C H O M P ! ! ! it. Not even a little. Yuck.
So call it a draw. It doesn't want me and I don't want it.
It is possible to use fire on a Fire Elemental and kill it.
Serpent Fire Monks can shoot fire by opening their third chakra point. This Fire ignores immunities and resistances.
Mindscape. Puh-lease. I live in my own little world all the time. Mostly sleeping. Dreaming. This thing can't use Mindscape on me because it's my natural state; it's like using fire on a fire elemental.
And I don't like mushrooms. Wherever this thing lives, I have no interest in it. Not even to C H O M P ! ! ! it. Not even a little. Yuck.
So call it a draw. It doesn't want me and I don't want it.
It is possible to use fire on a Fire Elemental and kill it.
Serpent Fire Monks can shoot fire by opening their third chakra point. This Fire ignores immunities and resistances.
Yes, but that's quite a corner case. I suppose if we look hard enough, we'll find somebody who can apply mind-affecting effects to creatures immune to mind-affecting effects. If we can't find it today, maybe it will be published tomorrow.
The existence of the rare corner case, while interesting, doesn't belie the point.
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Mark, i'm not sold to party having access to ninth level spell. Usually a single monster is espected to be CR at least +2 if not +3/4, especially when is the kind of "campaign moster" and not "mook/swarm" type. We are looking at a party of 14-16 level to go against it on average. Still within Limited Wish however.
Anyway, ruling the mindscape to be mind-affecting is a big hit since immunity to that is cheap as duck at those levels.
Yet, you will excuse me if a chuckle a little on the irony of making away with all the supposed "save or die" during the 3.5->pathfinder yet they always find their way to sneack back in, sometimes even stronger than before. I mean, and istant kill is one level 5 spell away from being undone, stuff like this mindscape are way more hard to remove since you are supposed to have that one "silver bullet" available.
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I just realized, you can just kill the zygomind from within the mindscape. The only real issue is if you never realize it's a threat or if the party is split by some making their saves. Telepathy would still allow a coordinated attack, just not share buffs.
Mark, i'm not sold to party having access to ninth level spell. Usually a single monster is espected to be CR at least +2 if not +3/4, especially when is the kind of "campaign moster" and not "mook/swarm" type. We are looking at a party of 14-16 level to go against it on average. Still within Limited Wish however.
Anyway, ruling the mindscape to be mind-affecting is a big hit since immunity to that is cheap as duck at those levels.
Yet, you will excuse me if a chuckle a little on the irony of making away with all the supposed "save or die" during the 3.5->pathfinder yet they always find their way to sneack back in, sometimes even stronger than before. I mean, and istant kill is one level 5 spell away from being undone, stuff like this mindscape are way more hard to remove since you are supposed to have that one "silver bullet" available.
Some things, like Microcosm, are cheaper to solve through killing and raising your buddy than reversing it.
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It makes me sad that a 16th level Empiricist Investigator isn't immune to it's mindscape.
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Actually, I think the easiest way to kill one is to herd a rhemoraz into the mindscape, let it fail it's save and then calmly walk up and lay down to be eaten. The heat ability will do 8d6 fire a round as long as it stays there, which should be enough to overcome the fast healing.
Actually, I think the easiest way to kill one is to herd a rhemoraz into the mindscape, let it fail it's save and then calmly walk up and lay down to be eaten. The heat ability will do 8d6 fire a round as long as it stays there, which should be enough to overcome the fast healing.Then the Zygomind starts scooting away as fast as its 5 ft/round will take it. Which I suppose is an effective way to get rid of it.
Up to 20 ft per round in a straight, unobstructed line! Look at it roll! So cute! Maybe we can keep pace with a light jog~!
EDIT: Given its size, it's going to be rolling for a while to get away from that rhemoraz...!
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Couldn't the Zygomind just kill the Rhemoraz with conventional Tentacle attacks?
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Couldn't the Zygomind just kill the Rhemoraz with conventional Tentacle attacks?And take 8d6 fire damage a hit?
It'd only take 5 hit's on average doing 140 damage to the Zygomind on average (40 x 3.5), who as almost 300 HP and fast healing 20. It could also probably just Coup de grace. Although a CDG is probably out of it's intelligence range