Komoda |
Unfortunately, these are all of the relevant rules. Their interaction is highly debated. Hell, the rules for stealth can't even be agreed upon which makes it impossible for any rule that uses it to be agreed upon as well.
In my opinion, HiPS give you more squares where you can attempt to hide, but it does not negate the benefits of Low Light Vision and Darkvision. For others, it gives you more squares where you can hide and negates the benefits of Low Light Vision and Darkvision.
A few of us have "checked" many times. This is not our first debate on this topic.
Komoda |
Komoda wrote:How is this any more valid than the reverse: HiPS makes no mention of ignoring the rules of Low Light Vision or Darkvision and therefore does not ignore those rules?Weren't you the one who asserted that darkvision defeats hide in plain sight? There has not yet been any proof of that provided by anyone. Generally the onus of providing proof is on the person making the claim.
There is no way to prove it either way, which is why we are still debating it. The way I approach adjudicating rules is to try and make every rule work, or interact, unless it says otherwise.
I believe that my interpretation includes the rules of Low Light Vision, Darkvision and HiPS and allows any creature that has any of those skills to use them.
The way I understand the opposition is that they completely ignore any benefit of characters with Low Light Vision and Darkvision, giving them the vision of a human. I cannot agree that HiPS states or implies any such ruling.
If that is the case, then why not negate all forms of detection that are not listed rather than arbitrarily just these two? Why would tremorsense or blindsight or scent work? All of these other forms of detection are also Extraordinary, like LLV and DV. Why not apply the rule equally to all forms of detection? I mean without fluff the skill is "Stealth while observed within 10' of dim light". So why can't you hide from those other detection senses if you are ignoring Extraordianry senses?
Komoda |
Komoda wrote:...and negates the benefits of Low Light Vision and Darkvision.What does this mean?
I'm glad you asked. It shows you are trying to understand my position, even if you do not agree with it.
This map shows a city street lit by torches. All of the clear areas are Normal Light. All of the areas with a yellow tint are Dim Light. All of the area blocked in purple are Darkness.
The top view is that of a human. The bottom view is that of an elf. As you can see, the elf has the ability to see many more squares that are not Dim Light because the light sources are twice as effective. This is the benefit of Low Light Vision.
There is a black dot near the bottom right of each view. It is the same square on both maps. A character wishing to "stealth" in that square can do so. When a human is looking there, he must roll his perception to determine if he can see the stealthing character. The elf sees the stealthing character automatically because he is not in an area of Dim Light. This is another benefit of Low Light Vision.
It is my position that HiPS does not eliminate this benefit. It does limit it, however. If a character were to try and hide from the elf, it could attempt to by moving 3 squares to the right, whereas a character without HiPS would have to move 5 squares to the right to be able to.
Darkvision is more powerful.
A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.
Of course the 60' is a variable. And I know what you are going to say, "Specific trumps general". But as often happens, we have no way of knowing which is more specific. HiPS offers no invisibility, nor cover.
So, to apply HiPS as many people see it (in my understanding of their position) they must completely ignore the rules of Low Light Vision and Darkvision. But I don't see anything in HiPS that suggests that.
In my interpretation, all the rules still exist. And while HiPS gives a benefit to the user, it is not all encompassing. It is still harder to hide from an elf than from a human. And still damn near impossible to sneak up on a dwarf.
If you don't agree with me, I understand. But you have got to admit that otherwise you are negating Low Light Vision and Darkvision in addition to the stated rules of HiPS.
TriOmegaZero |
I have to admit no such thing. You are incorrect about the benefits of low-light, and dark visions benefits do not trump HiPS's benefits. Creatures with darkvision automatically see creatures using darkness to Stealth and do not automatically see creatures using HiPS to Stealth. Creatures with low-light do not automatically see creatures using HiPS to Stealth but do avoid the 20% miss chance if they do see them.
Komoda |
I have to admit no such thing. You are incorrect about the benefits of low-light, and dark visions benefits do not trump HiPS's benefits. Creatures with darkvision automatically see creatures using darkness to Stealth and do not automatically see creatures using HiPS to Stealth. Creatures with low-light do not automatically see creatures using HiPS to Stealth but do avoid the 20% miss chance if they do see them.
Taking out HiPS, how am I incorrect about the benefits of Low Light Vision?
And I agree I cannot prove it, but saying HiPS trumps Darkvision is no more valid than Darkvision trumps HiPS. Neither can be proven.
TriOmegaZero |
That was it. A character with low-light will spot a creature using darkness to hide if the creature is within the area of their increased vision. This does not change the distance a HiPS using character must be from an area of shadow.
Komoda |
That was it. A character with low-light will spot a creature using darkness to hide if the creature is within the area of their increased vision. This does not change the distance a HiPS using character must be from an area of shadow.
So then we agree that our disconnect is from what we call an "area of shadow"? We both know that it is 10' from this area that the Shadowdancer can hide in. We just disagree on how to determine what that area actually is. You base it on "normal vision" whereas I base it on the viewer's vision.
TriOmegaZero |
I base it on light sources. Low-light and darkvision do not change actual light levels, only effective radius' for those who possess them. The edge of dim light does not actually change, so the HiPS limit is unchanged
Irontruth |
Komoda,
If a person can see into a shadow due to special vision, does the shadow stop existing? Or do they just negate any penalties for it being there?
Cause if the shadow is still there, than HiPS doesn't care about your vision.
HiPS conditions aren't "excluding shadows being observed by lowlight or darkvision." It's just "shadows". For HiPS to not work, it's own conditions have to no longer be met, or beaten by something that specifically beats all forms of stealth.
Remember, HiPS doesn't provide cover, it provides a usage of stealth WITHOUT cover. You can actually be standing in BRIGHT LIGHT and using HiPS as long as there is also Dim Light within 10'. You don't actually have to stand IN the Dim Light.
So, being able to see in Dim Light doesn't actually mean anything, because the shadowdancer doesn't actually have to be IN the Dim Light.
HiPS is a more powerful version of stealth that defeats normal methods of seeing past cover and concealment.
BigNorseWolf |
I base it on light sources. Low-light and darkvision do not change actual light levels, only effective radius' for those who possess them. The edge of dim light does not actually change, so the HiPS limit is unchanged
What is the "actual" light level?
If it depends on the perceiver then the actual light level in the area for an elf IS normal. Its not that the elf sees it as normal or negates the disadvantages of it, that area IS normal light.. to an elf.
If the book was written by humans for humans then there is a shadow there that the shadow dancer can tug around themselves to hide in.
TriOmegaZero |
What is the "actual" light level?
The area of illumination as determined by the table Light Sources and Illumination.
See Table: Light Sources and Illumination for the radius that a light source illuminates and how long it lasts. The increased entry indicates an area outside the lit radius in which the light level is increased by one step (from darkness to dim light, for example).
Komoda |
Komoda,
If a person can see into a shadow due to special vision, does the shadow stop existing? Or do they just negate any penalties for it being there?
Cause if the shadow is still there, than HiPS doesn't care about your vision.
HiPS conditions aren't "excluding shadows being observed by lowlight or darkvision." It's just "shadows". For HiPS to not work, it's own conditions have to no longer be met, or beaten by something that specifically beats all forms of stealth.
Remember, HiPS doesn't provide cover, it provides a usage of stealth WITHOUT cover. You can actually be standing in BRIGHT LIGHT and using HiPS as long as there is also Dim Light within 10'. You don't actually have to stand IN the Dim Light.
So, being able to see in Dim Light doesn't actually mean anything, because the shadowdancer doesn't actually have to be IN the Dim Light.
HiPS is a more powerful version of stealth that defeats normal methods of seeing past cover and concealment.
Shadows don't matter, rules do. The only mention of shadows in the Shadowdancer's HiPS is that they can't hide in their own. The word shadow is flavor text, and it is flavor text that isn't even in the ability. The existence of shadows makes no difference. There are shadows EVERYWHERE there is any light. That is why the ability was changed to read Dim Light.
Elves can't see better in dim light. They still suffer a 20% miss chance in areas of Dim Light, just like humans. They change the radius of a light source. These are distinct and different.
Again, look at my maps and show me how, ignoring HiPS, they are incorrect.
Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.
Notice those rules do not say the characters can see in Dim Light. This is a common misconception that I see all the time. Low Light Vision changes the areas affected by the light source for those characters.
So, following the logic through, a character cannot stealth from an elf, within 40' of a torch because to that elf, it is Normal Light. So again, a character cannot stealth because that character is not in Dim Light, from the elf's point of view. That character can hide from 25' to 40' from a torch from a human, all day long. Same squares, different light levels based on the viewer. The elf is not "seeing through" Dim Light, the elf has changed the radius of the Normal Light, for his viewing.
Continuing that logic more, HiPS would not work within 30' of a torch, when an elf is viewing the area. A character using HiPS could hide as close as 11' from the torch when hiding from Humans, but the elf would see it.
Komoda |
BigNorseWolf wrote:What is the "actual" light level?The area of illumination as determined by the table Light Sources and Illumination.
Vision and Light wrote:See Table: Light Sources and Illumination for the radius that a light source illuminates and how long it lasts. The increased entry indicates an area outside the lit radius in which the light level is increased by one step (from darkness to dim light, for example).
But why ignore this part of the rules:
Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.
You know if you were to gain a +10 bonus to your attack roll if you were attacking in Normal Light, you would add it if you were playing an elf 30' away from a torch because it is Normal Light to you.
Komoda |
Another comparison would be invisibility.
Example 1:
A ninja is invisible. I have See Invisibility. I see the ninja.
Example 2:
A ninja has HiPS. I have Low Light Vision. The ninja is hiding 25' away from a torch. I can see him because TO ME, he is still 15' away from Dim Light. TO ME, he is not in Dim Light.
Those two examples use the exact same logic for the exact same result. In both cases the abilities of the viewer direct what the ninja is able to do.
If your logic was applied equally, it wouldn't matter that I have see invisible because the ninja is still invisible. So even though he is not invisible TO ME, he still gains all the benefits of invisibility.
You would pose that the rules react differently to the two examples. Why?
TriOmegaZero |
...for such characters.
Thank you for proving my point. What characters have the effective radius doubled?
The ones with low light vision. Not the character with HiPS.
The HiPS character is unaffected by the effective radius of the low-light character.
Edit: An invisible character being viewed with See Invisibility can still Stealth if he has HiPS and is close enough to a valid area.
wraithstrike |
That means things such as lanterns determine what the light level actually is is. How well you can effectively use it is determined by special senses such as low light vision.
Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.
This means that these characters get more use out of the light conditions. It does not mean the light conditions themselves are actually different.
You having low light vision has no effect on the ability of a torch to put out light.
If 2 pounds of food is treated as effectively eating 4 pounds of food for me, I still have still only eaten 2 pounds of food. The same analogy applies to the effective radius of light.
Komoda |
doesn't supernatural abilities beat extraordinary abilities?
No. There is no such rule. People state, "but supernatural" pretty often but for no reason. The only point of categorizing an ability as Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-Like is to see how it works with AoOs, Dispel Magic, Spell Resistance and Antimagic fields. They do not "trump" each other.
In fact, Extraordianry is the most powerful category because it can't be dispelled, works in an anti-magic field, ignores spell resistance and never provokes an AoO.
Komoda |
That means things such as lanterns determine what the light level actually is is. How well you can effectively use it is determined by special senses such as low light vision.
Quote:Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.This means that these characters get more use out of the light conditions. It does not mean the light conditions themselves are actually different.
You having low light vision has no effect on the ability of a torch to put out light.
If 2 pounds of food is treated as effectively eating 4 pounds of food for me, I still have still only eaten 2 pounds of food. The same analogy applies to the effective radius of light.
Uh, so? It would mean that I see through your ability. Not that you can't use it against those without LLV.
And back to the invisible ninja. The fact that I have see invisibility does not affect his stealth. He is still invisible. He can still stealth. I can just see through it because of what affects me, and not him. What is the difference?
The food analogy is apples to oranges.
Komoda |
Komoda wrote:...for such characters.Thank you for proving my point. What characters have the effective radius doubled?
The ones with low light vision. Not the character with HiPS.
The HiPS character is unaffected by the effective radius of the low-light character.
Edit: An invisible character being viewed with See Invisibility can still Stealth if he has HiPS and is close enough to a valid area.
It isn't about "affecting" the HiPS character. It is about the fact that it is not Dim Light as the elf views it.
If it were reverse and a character saw all torch light as Dim Light, then HiPS would work everywhere within the torch radius against that character, would it not?
And the examples were not Invisible AND HiPS, it was Invisible VS HiPS.
TriOmegaZero |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
HiPS removes the restriction on Stealth without cover or concealment. It doesn't matter what kind of sight the observer has. The observers sight does not change the environmental conditions, which are what determines if HiPS can be used.
Irontruth |
Irontruth wrote:Komoda,
If a person can see into a shadow due to special vision, does the shadow stop existing? Or do they just negate any penalties for it being there?
Cause if the shadow is still there, than HiPS doesn't care about your vision.
HiPS conditions aren't "excluding shadows being observed by lowlight or darkvision." It's just "shadows". For HiPS to not work, it's own conditions have to no longer be met, or beaten by something that specifically beats all forms of stealth.
Remember, HiPS doesn't provide cover, it provides a usage of stealth WITHOUT cover. You can actually be standing in BRIGHT LIGHT and using HiPS as long as there is also Dim Light within 10'. You don't actually have to stand IN the Dim Light.
So, being able to see in Dim Light doesn't actually mean anything, because the shadowdancer doesn't actually have to be IN the Dim Light.
HiPS is a more powerful version of stealth that defeats normal methods of seeing past cover and concealment.
Shadows don't matter, rules do. The only mention of shadows in the Shadowdancer's HiPS is that they can't hide in their own. The word shadow is flavor text, and it is flavor text that isn't even in the ability. The existence of shadows makes no difference. There are shadows EVERYWHERE there is any light. That is why the ability was changed to read Dim Light.
Elves can't see better in dim light. They still suffer a 20% miss chance in areas of Dim Light, just like humans. They change the radius of a light source. These are distinct and different.
Again, look at my maps and show me how, ignoring HiPS, they are incorrect.
CRB p. 173 wrote:Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.Notice those rules do not say the characters can see in Dim Light. This is a common misconception that I see all the time. Low Light...
Does being an elf change the existence of Dim Light? Or does it change that character's perception of Dim Light?
To highlight what I'm saying, imagine a wizard is using a crystal ball to scry on someone. That person is a ranger who is in a terrain he can use HiPS within.
Does it matter that the wizard is not in the ranger's favored terrain? No, because the location of the ranger is what determines whether he can use his ability or not.
It doesn't matter if the elf acts as if the shadow doesn't exist, the shadow still exists. So, the Shadowdancer can still use the shadow to hide. If the shadow exists, regardless of someone's ability to see through it or not, HiPS works, because it is the existence of the shadow that matters. HiPS supercedes the normal cover/concealment requirements. The ability to see through the shadow is irrelevant.
Komoda |
HiPS removes the restriction on Stealth without cover or concealment.
Agreed, as long as the user is within 10' of Dim Light. Technically, HiPS would not work in darkness, based on a strict reading of the rules.
It doesn't matter what kind of sight the observer has. The observers sight does not change the environmental conditions, which are what determines if HiPS can be used.
Disagree. Nothing in HiPS states this.
Invisibility states what it does. It is still seen through by See Invisibility. Which is different than invisibility purge. See Invisibility has no affect upon an invisible character, yet they are still seen.
Low Light Vision does the same thing. It changes that level of light, for the viewer, to a degree that makes it more difficult to hide from them. There is nothing in HiPS that states this Extraordinary Ability, the type of ability that is hardest to thwart, stops working.
I understand your position and can't prove you wrong. But at some point you have to agree that you can't prove me wrong either. Your entire position is that LLV just doesn't work and HiPS is ONLY based on the conditions of normal vision.
TriOmegaZero |
That is not my position. HiPS doesn't need to state that low light does not change the conditions that qualify, as that would be redundant text. You must find a rule establishing that low light has such an effect, and there is not one. Thus, it does not.
Irontruth |
HiPS specific rule trumps normal stealth/vision rules. Specific>general
To specifically make HiPS not work, you have to show that the Dim Light no longer exists.
Not that the observer sees the space as Normal light, but that the Dim Light doesn't exist.
Change the concept slightly. Let's say I had Hide in Plain Sight, but it only worked within 10' of a red object. Would a character being colorblind prevent me from using HiPS? They don't perceive the object as red, but does it stop being red?
Komoda |
...
Did you look at the map? Do you agree with the map?
Shadows don't matter. Game rules do. Read the Shadowdancer HiPS again. The only time Shadow is mentioned is the very last word. Nothing about how the game mechanic works has anything to do with shadows. Take the word "Shadow" out of the discussion because that word has no meaning in relation to the game mechanic. It is all about Dim Light.
If an elf attacks someone in the square marked by the black dot on my map, does that elf suffer a 20% miss chance due to the target being in Dim Light? No. Because to the elf, he is not in Dim Light. The target can not hide from the elf there, because he is not in Dim Light.
The rule is not, "elves ignore dim light."
The rule is not, "elves can see in dim light."
The rule is not, "elves ignore concealment created by dim light."
The rule flatly reads, "Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters."
I think all of us agree with this so far. (If not, we are never going to even understand each other's position.)
So, if none of those things work because he is not in Dim Light, then he is still not in Dim Light (in relation to the elf) for HiPS.
I get that you don't agree, "Because HiPS", but nothing supports this.
And finally, does See Invisibility make a character no longer invisible? Of course not. But you still can't hide from the wizard with See Invisibility, even if you are still invisible. Again, the entire stealth ruleset is about the interaction between the viewer and the target, it is never about just one's abilities.
Every single form of hiding is based on the viewer's ability to see. HiPS doesn't change this, it just makes it harder to see them.
Komoda |
HiPS specific rule trumps normal stealth/vision rules. Specific>general
To specifically make HiPS not work, you have to show that the Dim Light no longer exists.
Not that the observer sees the space as Normal light, but that the Dim Light doesn't exist.
Change the concept slightly. Let's say I had Hide in Plain Sight, but it only worked within 10' of a red object. Would a character being colorblind prevent me from using HiPS? They don't perceive the object as red, but does it stop being red?
There is no way to know which rule trumps which. It is a major problem with the Specific > General argument. In this case, it never calls out what it is trumping. And if it did, it would only trump the normal light by 10'. It never says anything about trumping Low Light Vision altogether.
And HiPS is not the kind of thing that is binary. It can work against some foes and not others at the exact same time.
The color red argument is a red herring. It means nothing and has nothing to do with the rules. The example I posted earlier about having a +10 bonus to attack when within Normal Light is much closer. Would you gain that bonus if you were an elf 30' away from a torch? The base level is Dim Light, but to the elf it is Normal Light. Would the elf get the bonus?
Komoda |
That is not my position. HiPS doesn't need to state that low light does not change the conditions that qualify, as that would be redundant text. You must find a rule establishing that low light has such an effect, and there is not one. Thus, it does not.
You are stating the HiPS ignores all abilities it does not mention. How is that not the same thing as HiPS is based on normal vision only?
TriOmegaZero |
You are stating the HiPS ignores all abilities it does not mention. How is that not the same thing as HiPS is based on normal vision only?
Because if the observer makes the Perception check, they can attack the HiPSer without concealment, despite the dim light.
Komoda |
Komoda wrote:Because if the observer makes the Perception check, they can attack the HiPSer without concealment, despite the dim light.You are stating the HiPS ignores all abilities it does not mention. How is that not the same thing as HiPS is based on normal vision only?
So why do they get to ignore one part of Dim Light, but not the other? (assuming more than 10' from Dim Light, as per the observer.)
Irontruth |
Irontruth wrote:...Did you look at the map? Do you agree with the map?
Shadows don't matter. Game rules do. Read the Shadowdancer HiPS again. The only time Shadow is mentioned is the very last word. Nothing about how the game mechanic works has anything to do with shadows. Take the word "Shadow" out of the discussion because that word has no meaning in relation to the game mechanic. It is all about Dim Light.
If an elf attacks someone in the square marked by the black dot on my map, does that elf suffer a 20% miss chance due to the target being in Dim Light? No. Because to the elf, he is not in Dim Light. The target can not hide from the elf there, because he is not in Dim Light.
The rule is not, "elves ignore dim light."
The rule is not, "elves can see in dim light."
The rule is not, "elves ignore concealment created by dim light."The rule flatly reads, "Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters."
I think all of us agree with this so far. (If not, we are never going to even understand each other's position.)
So, if none of those things work because he is not in Dim Light, then he is still not in Dim Light (in relation to the elf) for HiPS.
I get that you don't agree, "Because HiPS", but nothing supports this.
And finally, does See Invisibility make a character no longer invisible? Of course not. But you still can't hide from the wizard with See Invisibility, even if you are still invisible. Again, the entire stealth ruleset is about the interaction between the viewer and the target, it is never about just one's abilities.
Every single form of hiding is based on the viewer's ability to see. HiPS doesn't change this, it just makes it harder to see them.
Does LLV say double the ACTUAL radius of light? Or double the EFFECTIVE radius of light?
I agree with you that the elf sees the space as normal light.
Do you agree that the dim light still exists in that space?
Irontruth |
So wait, hold on. Are you telling me that Trueseeing wouldn't stop it either? The Dim Light still exists, it is just ignored by the person with Trueseeing.
How I'm interpreting this, no, Trueseeing wouldn't bypass a shadowdancer's HiPS.
Of course, a simple Light spell or Daylight spell could do it.
Personally as GM, I probably would have True Seeing work though, because I would consider the HiPS a sort of magical darkness effect. But that's just me as GM, not RAW.
Starglim |
Agreed. Double the effective radius for such characters, not the actual radius.
So wait, hold on. Are you telling me that Trueseeing wouldn't stop it either? The Dim Light still exists, it is just ignored by the person with Trueseeing.
The dim light exists and HiPS can be used. The character with true seeing cannot see creatures who are simply hiding, unless the GM thinks that in context, HiPS, as a supernatural ability, is not a mundane means and is not simply hiding.
Personally as GM, I probably would have True Seeing work though, because I would consider the HiPS a sort of magical darkness effect. But that's just me as GM, not RAW.
Similarly, I think it could be argued, as above, that it's a kind of invisibility.
TriOmegaZero |
So wait, hold on. Are you telling me that Trueseeing wouldn't stop it either? The Dim Light still exists, it is just ignored by the person with Trueseeing.
Correct. Trueseeing does not ignore plain Stealth, and since HiPS does not actually do anything to disguise or mask the character, True Seeing would not ignore the Stealth check.
Komoda |
What do you mean?
Assume a square 25' from a torch.
"Ambient" Dim Light = 20% miss chance. Your saying the elf ignores this because he sees the area as Normal Light.
"Ambient" Dim Light = Ability to hide. Your saying the elf doesn't ignore this because of HiPS, even though to the elf it is Normal Light and you are 20' away from Dim Light.
So in the first part of the above, the "Effective" rules are in effect.
But in the second part of the above, the "Ambient" rules are in effect.
This is what I have a problem with. Why does the elf keep half of his Low Light Vision, but not all of it? Why is it not always the Effective or Ambient level in things that pertain to him? If you are hiding, and HiPS ignores Low Light Vision, why do you not get a 20% miss chance? You are clearly applying half of the Low Light Vision rules.
If the square were ALWAYS Dim Light, you wouldn't need HiPS to hide. Dim Light gives you that ability. What stops anyone from hiding from the elf in this square with normal stealth? It is the fact that the effective light level is now normal.
You would also posit that this entire rule is ignored:
Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.
This would be another part of Low Light Vision that you feel HiPS negates, am I correct? I can't agree that is true.
TriOmegaZero |
d20pfsrd wrote:Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.This would be another part of Low Light Vision that you feel HiPS negates, am I correct? I can't agree that is true.
I cannot comprehend what makes you think I hold that stance. Or even what you think I am claiming is negated.
Irontruth |
This would be another part of Low Light Vision that you feel HiPS negates, am I correct? I can't agree that is true.
Again, irrelevant.
Read HiPS and figure out what question the ability is asking.
Does HiPS ask:
1) Are you within 10' of a shadow someone can see?
2) Are you within 10' of a shadow?
If it's asking question 1, the observer and their vision type matters.
If it's question 2, then the observer's vision type is irrelevant.
Seeing as HiPS doesn't reference outside characters at all, I argue that it is question 2. Reading the HiPS ability, do you have any evidence that it is question 1? I'm not asking for Stealth or vision rules, but how the HiPS ability is worded.
Komoda |
Komoda wrote:Irontruth wrote:...Did you look at the map? Do you agree with the map?
Shadows don't matter. Game rules do. Read the Shadowdancer HiPS again. The only time Shadow is mentioned is the very last word. Nothing about how the game mechanic works has anything to do with shadows. Take the word "Shadow" out of the discussion because that word has no meaning in relation to the game mechanic. It is all about Dim Light.
If an elf attacks someone in the square marked by the black dot on my map, does that elf suffer a 20% miss chance due to the target being in Dim Light? No. Because to the elf, he is not in Dim Light. The target can not hide from the elf there, because he is not in Dim Light.
The rule is not, "elves ignore dim light."
The rule is not, "elves can see in dim light."
The rule is not, "elves ignore concealment created by dim light."The rule flatly reads, "Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters."
I think all of us agree with this so far. (If not, we are never going to even understand each other's position.)
So, if none of those things work because he is not in Dim Light, then he is still not in Dim Light (in relation to the elf) for HiPS.
I get that you don't agree, "Because HiPS", but nothing supports this.
And finally, does See Invisibility make a character no longer invisible? Of course not. But you still can't hide from the wizard with See Invisibility, even if you are still invisible. Again, the entire stealth ruleset is about the interaction between the viewer and the target, it is never about just one's abilities.
Every single form of hiding is based on the viewer's ability to see. HiPS doesn't change this, it just makes it harder to see them.
Does LLV say double the ACTUAL radius of light? Or double the EFFECTIVE radius of light?
I agree with you that the elf sees the space as normal light.
Do you agree that the dim light still exists in that...
Effective means actual to the individual. Dim Light is an area without enough light for a character to see clearly. To different characters, that is a different amount of actual light or photons. It is not a certain measure of lumens. It is a matter of having enough lumens for a given character to see. The amount of lumens is not different, what is seen by those lumens is.
Imagine a torch gives off light at this rate:
100 lumens up to 20'
70 Lumens up to 40'
40 Lumens up to 80'
A human sees clearly at 100 lumens. And sees Dim Light down to 70 lumens.
An elf sees clearly at 70 lumens. And sees Dim Light down to 40 lumens.
The physical photons have not changed in any way. The level of detail that can been seen is completely different based on the viewer. To the elf, All the way down to 70 lumens is Normal Light.
Since 70 lumens is the Normal Light level for an elf, one cannot use stealth, and the elf does not suffer a 20% miss chance. And I would posit, that HiPS wouldn't work unless within 10' of that 40' ring, rather than the 20' ring.
Komoda |
Komoda wrote:So wait, hold on. Are you telling me that Trueseeing wouldn't stop it either? The Dim Light still exists, it is just ignored by the person with Trueseeing.How I'm interpreting this, no, Trueseeing wouldn't bypass a shadowdancer's HiPS.
Of course, a simple Light spell or Daylight spell could do it.
Personally as GM, I probably would have True Seeing work though, because I would consider the HiPS a sort of magical darkness effect. But that's just me as GM, not RAW.
But in True Seeing
The subject sees through normal and magical darkness.
So there would be no Dim Light to that viewer.
Komoda |
Komoda wrote:
This would be another part of Low Light Vision that you feel HiPS negates, am I correct? I can't agree that is true.
Again, irrelevant.
Read HiPS and figure out what question the ability is asking.
Does HiPS ask:
1) Are you within 10' of a shadow someone can see?
2) Are you within 10' of a shadow?If it's asking question 1, the observer and their vision type matters.
If it's question 2, then the observer's vision type is irrelevant.Seeing as HiPS doesn't reference outside characters at all, I argue that it is question 2. Reading the HiPS ability, do you have any evidence that it is question 1? I'm not asking for Stealth or vision rules, but how the HiPS ability is worded.
1) No. There is no mention of shadow other than not being able to hide in your own.
2) No. There is no mention of shadow other than not being able to hide in your own.Dim Light is only described in the Vision and Light section of the book. You can't use HiPS without looking at pages 172-173. The same exact section that tells you what Dim Light is, tells you that Low Light Vision has an affect on the radius of Dim Light. It is not in some obscure place in the book. It is only 2 more paragraphs down. You can't use any of these 3 rules (HiPS, LLV, and Vision & Light) without the others.
Komoda |
Komoda wrote:I cannot comprehend what makes you think I hold that stance. Or even what you think I am claiming is negated.d20pfsrd wrote:Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.This would be another part of Low Light Vision that you feel HiPS negates, am I correct? I can't agree that is true.
The fact that you feel the ambient level is what matter for HiPS, not the effective level.
So it is your position that you can't hide from an elf using HiPS during a moonlit night?
Komoda |
Komoda wrote:So wait, hold on. Are you telling me that Trueseeing wouldn't stop it either? The Dim Light still exists, it is just ignored by the person with Trueseeing.Correct. Trueseeing does not ignore plain Stealth, and since HiPS does not actually do anything to disguise or mask the character, True Seeing would not ignore the Stealth check.
It does see through all levels of darkness, magical and mundane. Hense, there is no Dim Light to the person affected by True Seeing.
TriOmegaZero |
The fact that you feel the ambient level is what matter for HiPS, not the effective level.
So it is your position that you can't hide from an elf using HiPS during a moonlit night?
No. A character can use HiPS during a moonlit night. A character with low light vision would need to make a Perception check to see them, but would have no miss chance in combat against them if the check was made.
The effective level is only for determining what the character can see. It is not the ambient level, which is what HiPS uses to determine the character's ability to use Stealth.