Stacking Weapon Focus


Rules Questions


Can anyone think of why two +1s from two different Weapon Focus feats wouldn't stack - like if you have Weapon Focus: Temple Sword and then use Ascetic Style with Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike? Seems like they're both untyped and both apply...


same source, both coming from a weapon focus feat, don't stack.


That's what I thought at first glance, but if both bonuses are untyped, why would the fact that they come from two different instances of Weapon Focus matter? I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I don't remember anything that would stop someone from saying "OK, +1 untyped from Temple Sword Focus; now +1 untyped from Unarmed Focus since I'm allowed to apply it as well".


untyped bonuses from the same source don't stack.


I could see two different instances of Weapon Focus being the same source or different sources depending on how you look at it, but it does seem like it's a bit odd to claim them both. It's the 'same' feat, but then on the other hand it's two separate entries on a character sheet that cost two feats, which is the only reason I was wondering. Anyhow it's a pretty minor corner-case.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Don´t stack. Same thing, same source.
One could believe that on the first look they stack, but it´s actually just like a stat mod to saves.
And in this case, since you can take weapon focus improved unarmed strike and that counts as a monk weapon for ascetic style, it´s moot anyway.


We have made one rule change that applies to stacking bonuses. Improved Critical a feat and Keen a magic enhancement. Both say they don't stack but both are two very different bonuses. Improved Critical is a feat most PCs unable to get it until at least seventh or higher. Keen is a magic enhancement. It by Pazio's own rules should stack and apply and yet they say no. Our group has ruled this is an error and have ignored it.
It was ruled this way probably for game balance but it's not really an issue. Keen has requirements as does Improved Critical. Unless you are a fighter or fighter rogue combination looking for that critical hit all the time most are not going to combine the two. It is powerful but not to the degree I think Pazio is afraid of. It in most cases really isn't that big a difference. In all my years of playing from 1st ed to Pathfinder I have more often then not seen players do more damage on a regular hit then a critical strike. In fact my early group had rules to improve the crit factor by rolling to confirm it repeatedly at higher and higher numbers. In this case it could make a scary difference but not always. Seen in several cases guy rolls a crit confirms it then confirms it twice more using our system. X3 damage, then rolls a one for damage. Ends up doing like 9 points to a monster. Me barely hits the monster does 13 points regular hit.
Even with high crit weapons X4 it won't always make a difference. Even with both most high crit weapons start at 20 then with keen goes to 19 or 20. Now adds Improved Crit fat he is now 17 to crit. While three lower then before the law of averages still doesn't favor you.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Chess Pwn wrote:
same source, both coming from a weapon focus feat, don't stack.

+1


Derek Dalton wrote:

We have made one rule change that applies to stacking bonuses. Improved Critical a feat and Keen a magic enhancement. Both say they don't stack but both are two very different bonuses. Improved Critical is a feat most PCs unable to get it until at least seventh or higher. Keen is a magic enhancement. It by Pazio's own rules should stack and apply and yet they say no. Our group has ruled this is an error and have ignored it.

It was ruled this way probably for game balance but it's not really an issue. Keen has requirements as does Improved Critical. Unless you are a fighter or fighter rogue combination looking for that critical hit all the time most are not going to combine the two. It is powerful but not to the degree I think Pazio is afraid of. It in most cases really isn't that big a difference. In all my years of playing from 1st ed to Pathfinder I have more often then not seen players do more damage on a regular hit then a critical strike. In fact my early group had rules to improve the crit factor by rolling to confirm it repeatedly at higher and higher numbers. In this case it could make a scary difference but not always. Seen in several cases guy rolls a crit confirms it then confirms it twice more using our system. X3 damage, then rolls a one for damage. Ends up doing like 9 points to a monster. Me barely hits the monster does 13 points regular hit.
Even with high crit weapons X4 it won't always make a difference. Even with both most high crit weapons start at 20 then with keen goes to 19 or 20. Now adds Improved Crit fat he is now 17 to crit. While three lower then before the law of averages still doesn't favor you.

Even if they stacked that's not what a x4 weapon crit would get. Double of a double is a triple not a quadruple. It would be 18 19 20 x4. Not 17.


Cavall wrote:
Derek Dalton wrote:

We have made one rule change that applies to stacking bonuses. Improved Critical a feat and Keen a magic enhancement. Both say they don't stack but both are two very different bonuses. Improved Critical is a feat most PCs unable to get it until at least seventh or higher. Keen is a magic enhancement. It by Pazio's own rules should stack and apply and yet they say no. Our group has ruled this is an error and have ignored it.

It was ruled this way probably for game balance but it's not really an issue. Keen has requirements as does Improved Critical. Unless you are a fighter or fighter rogue combination looking for that critical hit all the time most are not going to combine the two. It is powerful but not to the degree I think Pazio is afraid of. It in most cases really isn't that big a difference. In all my years of playing from 1st ed to Pathfinder I have more often then not seen players do more damage on a regular hit then a critical strike. In fact my early group had rules to improve the crit factor by rolling to confirm it repeatedly at higher and higher numbers. In this case it could make a scary difference but not always. Seen in several cases guy rolls a crit confirms it then confirms it twice more using our system. X3 damage, then rolls a one for damage. Ends up doing like 9 points to a monster. Me barely hits the monster does 13 points regular hit.
Even with high crit weapons X4 it won't always make a difference. Even with both most high crit weapons start at 20 then with keen goes to 19 or 20. Now adds Improved Crit fat he is now 17 to crit. While three lower then before the law of averages still doesn't favor you.
Even if they stacked that's not what a x4 weapon crit would get. Double of a double is a triple not a quadruple. It would be 18 19 20 x4. Not 17.

This is not correct. There's no correct way for this at all in Pathfinder, since they can't stack. Any way, have fun with your 9/12-20 crit ranges.

Grand Lodge

Rub-Eta wrote:
Cavall wrote:
Derek Dalton wrote:

We have made one rule change that applies to stacking bonuses. Improved Critical a feat and Keen a magic enhancement. Both say they don't stack but both are two very different bonuses. Improved Critical is a feat most PCs unable to get it until at least seventh or higher. Keen is a magic enhancement. It by Pazio's own rules should stack and apply and yet they say no. Our group has ruled this is an error and have ignored it.

It was ruled this way probably for game balance but it's not really an issue. Keen has requirements as does Improved Critical. Unless you are a fighter or fighter rogue combination looking for that critical hit all the time most are not going to combine the two. It is powerful but not to the degree I think Pazio is afraid of. It in most cases really isn't that big a difference. In all my years of playing from 1st ed to Pathfinder I have more often then not seen players do more damage on a regular hit then a critical strike. In fact my early group had rules to improve the crit factor by rolling to confirm it repeatedly at higher and higher numbers. In this case it could make a scary difference but not always. Seen in several cases guy rolls a crit confirms it then confirms it twice more using our system. X3 damage, then rolls a one for damage. Ends up doing like 9 points to a monster. Me barely hits the monster does 13 points regular hit.
Even with high crit weapons X4 it won't always make a difference. Even with both most high crit weapons start at 20 then with keen goes to 19 or 20. Now adds Improved Crit fat he is now 17 to crit. While three lower then before the law of averages still doesn't favor you.
Even if they stacked that's not what a x4 weapon crit would get. Double of a double is a triple not a quadruple. It would be 18 19 20 x4. Not 17.
This is not correct. There's no correct way for this at all in Pathfinder, since they can't stack. Any way, have fun with your 9/12-20 crit ranges.

They used to stack in 3.0, but it was removed when 3.5 came out, as it caused some really bad things to happen.

Rapier 18-20
Keen rapier or Improved Critical (rapier) 15-20
Keen rapier and Improved Critical (rapier) 12-20

Now, imagine a Magus with this.

So, does Keen or Improved Critical increase the head-chopping range on a Vorpal weapon, or just the non-Vorpal crit range?


BadBird wrote:
Can anyone think of why two +1s from two different Weapon Focus feats wouldn't stack - like if you have Weapon Focus: Temple Sword and then use Ascetic Style with Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike? Seems like they're both untyped and both apply...

Weapon Focus feat description:

Quote:
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

Dark Archive

kinevon wrote:

They used to stack in 3.0, but it was removed when 3.5 came out, as it caused some really bad things to happen.

Rapier 18-20
Keen rapier or Improved Critical (rapier) 15-20
Keen rapier and Improved Critical (rapier) 12-20

Now, imagine a Magus with this.

So, does Keen or Improved Critical increase the head-chopping range on a Vorpal weapon, or just the non-Vorpal crit range?

Oh it got worse than that;

Scimitar 18-20, x2

Disciple of Dispater (triples threat range, no Keen) 12-20, x2

Improved Critical 9-20, x2

Weapon Master (+2 threat, + x1 crit damage) 7-20, x3

...stacking critical threat was obscenely broken.

To the other, the Vorpal quality only triggers on a natural 20 thankfully.


Derek Dalton wrote:

We have made one rule change that applies to stacking bonuses. Improved Critical a feat and Keen a magic enhancement. Both say they don't stack but both are two very different bonuses. Improved Critical is a feat most PCs unable to get it until at least seventh or higher. Keen is a magic enhancement. It by Pazio's own rules should stack and apply and yet they say no. Our group has ruled this is an error and have ignored it.

It was ruled this way probably for game balance but it's not really an issue. Keen has requirements as does Improved Critical. Unless you are a fighter or fighter rogue combination looking for that critical hit all the time most are not going to combine the two. It is powerful but not to the degree I think Pazio is afraid of. It in most cases really isn't that big a difference. In all my years of playing from 1st ed to Pathfinder I have more often then not seen players do more damage on a regular hit then a critical strike. In fact my early group had rules to improve the crit factor by rolling to confirm it repeatedly at higher and higher numbers. In this case it could make a scary difference but not always. Seen in several cases guy rolls a crit confirms it then confirms it twice more using our system. X3 damage, then rolls a one for damage. Ends up doing like 9 points to a monster. Me barely hits the monster does 13 points regular hit.
Even with high crit weapons X4 it won't always make a difference. Even with both most high crit weapons start at 20 then with keen goes to 19 or 20. Now adds Improved Crit fat he is now 17 to crit. While three lower then before the law of averages still doesn't favor you.

You are also running your damage wrong. It isn't double (or triple/quadruple a single roll of the dice), it is double (triple/quadruple) the number of dice you roll, and do the same for static modifiers. It can still happen that a crit does less damage than a normal hit. E.g, 1d8, roll an 8. Get a crit next round and roll two 1's. But the bell curve of multiple dice being rolled results in a better damage roll in most cases.


Rub-Eta wrote:
Cavall wrote:
Derek Dalton wrote:

We have made one rule change that applies to stacking bonuses. Improved Critical a feat and Keen a magic enhancement. Both say they don't stack but both are two very different bonuses. Improved Critical is a feat most PCs unable to get it until at least seventh or higher. Keen is a magic enhancement. It by Pazio's own rules should stack and apply and yet they say no. Our group has ruled this is an error and have ignored it.

It was ruled this way probably for game balance but it's not really an issue. Keen has requirements as does Improved Critical. Unless you are a fighter or fighter rogue combination looking for that critical hit all the time most are not going to combine the two. It is powerful but not to the degree I think Pazio is afraid of. It in most cases really isn't that big a difference. In all my years of playing from 1st ed to Pathfinder I have more often then not seen players do more damage on a regular hit then a critical strike. In fact my early group had rules to improve the crit factor by rolling to confirm it repeatedly at higher and higher numbers. In this case it could make a scary difference but not always. Seen in several cases guy rolls a crit confirms it then confirms it twice more using our system. X3 damage, then rolls a one for damage. Ends up doing like 9 points to a monster. Me barely hits the monster does 13 points regular hit.
Even with high crit weapons X4 it won't always make a difference. Even with both most high crit weapons start at 20 then with keen goes to 19 or 20. Now adds Improved Crit fat he is now 17 to crit. While three lower then before the law of averages still doesn't favor you.
Even if they stacked that's not what a x4 weapon crit would get. Double of a double is a triple not a quadruple. It would be 18 19 20 x4. Not 17.
This is not correct. There's no correct way for this at all in Pathfinder, since they can't stack. Any way, have fun with your 9/12-20 crit ranges.

It's an entirely correct statement. One, I stated they don't stack, and two I stated pathfinder doesn't double up doubles. Multiples add not multiply. Also, once again, I said it doesn't stack. I don't understand your statement.

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