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So I'm looking at the siegebreaker and I'm curious about something. I'll quote the relevant parts.
So If I had levels of Siegebreaker and Barbarian to have Breaker Rush and the knockback Rage power and had also taken the Merciless Rush feat and activated it, would I do three separate amounts of damage of my STR mod on a bull rush? Each happens because each condition is met and they are all separate blows so each works? If not why would this not work to get three separate damages?
Sounds legit. 3x Strength mod on Bullrushes is pretty much the MO of anyone who calls themselves a "Siegebreaker".
Bumping for a new day
It doesn't quite feel right to me. I think this FAQ applies here, though I could be wrong.
Do ability modifiers from the same ability stack? For instance, can you add the same ability bonus on the same roll twice using two different effects that each add that same ability modifier?
No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier. For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.
EDIT: It certainly isn't clear to me, though, because each of these uses the "deals damage equal to..." language contemplated by the FAQ, which doesn't address what happens when you have multiple instances of that. Still, it feels off to me. So I guess if I'm ruling on it, you can get: "Add X ability modifier", "Add a bonus equal to X ability modifier", or one of each, but not multiples of either (if that makes sense).
But again, that's just how I'd rule it. Don't know if that's actually the intent.
I can't see any reason that it doesn't work, but I agree that it doesn't quite feel right.
I would say that if you have all three of these abilities you don't deal 3x you strength damage, you instead deal your strength damage 3 times.
Sometimes this is the same thing, but when facing damage reduction it becomes quite different.
I would say that if you have all three of these abilities you don't deal 3x you strength damage, you instead deal your strength damage 3 times.
Sometimes this is the same thing, but when facing damage reduction it becomes quite different.
for sure it's dealing str 3 times. If it was 3 times str the FAQ would come in and stop it from working.
I would say that if you have all three of these abilities you don't deal 3x you strength damage, you instead deal your strength damage 3 times.
Sometimes this is the same thing, but when facing damage reduction it becomes quite different.
That is how I am inclined to read it, and my first thought on how I would interpret it. You have three separate abilities that deliver damage. Assuming you had a STR modifier of +6, and were successful to activate all abilities against a target with DR 5, you would do (6-5)+(6-5)+(6-5), or a net of 3 points of damage.
I cannot think of a clear example in the rules to directly compare to, but I base this on the statement that each says "you deal this damage." If they were intended to add together, I would expect language something like "you deal additional damage above what you might otherwise do."
Maybe someone will have an example or other reference to clarify the way these interact.
So I'm looking at the siegebreaker and I'm curious about something. I'll quote the relevant parts.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
So If I had levels of Siegebreaker and Barbarian to have Breaker Rush and the knockback Rage power and had also taken the Merciless Rush feat and activated it, would I do three separate amounts of damage of my STR mod on a bull rush? Each happens because each condition is met and they are all separate blows so each works? If not why would this not work to get three separate damages?
Its 3 different steps from the same ability. So the effects should stack.
1.Siegebreaker Breaker Rush
When he performs it triggers damage.
2.rage power Knockback
If successful then triggers damage.
3.Merciless Rush
If successful by 5 or more, it triggers damage.
3 distinct sources, coming from 1 action that trigger from different conditions.
You could perform a bull rush, and fail, in which case you do 5 damage.
You could perform a bull rush and succeed and do 5 more damage.
You could perform a bull rush and succeed by 5 or more, and do an extra 5 more damage.
I thought the Siegebreaker needed to succeed too, otherwise he tried to bull rush but missed so he didn't perform a bull rush.
I thought the Siegebreaker needed to succeed too, otherwise he tried to bull rush but missed so he didn't perform a bull rush.
Well Here is the thing:
When we think of A disarm combat maneuver, its either you disarmed your foe or you didn't.
The same with tripping. You either tripped the foe, or you didn't.
When you perform a bull rush
"A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm."
"If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet."
"If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target."
A archetype that is literally a linebacker, is brutal at bull rushing or overrun to the degree that attempting it causes damage.
Why? Because you are literally performing an attack action, or more precisely "You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack."
So sucess or no success you still made contact, and that is why they take damage from the Breaker Rush ability.
The stacking bonuses FAQ wouldn't apply because these aren't bonuses that are being added to anything. You aren't dealing damage and adding your Str bonus to it, you're dealing damage equal to your Str bonus. And it isn't an AoO so there's no issue with multiple triggers on the same action. You simply apply them in sequence, causing three separate instances of damage all of which are equal to your Str bonus. That also means that DR applies three times and you get no benefit from your any weapons to overcome it since the damage isn't attached to a weapon.
I would like to point this out for Siegebreaker alone
If he has Improved Bull Rush or Improved Overrun, the damage dealt by the appropriate maneuver increases by 2 and he adds any enhancement bonus from his armor or shield (though such enhancement bonuses do not stack, if both armor and shield are magic).
So there is a way you can get that damage to overcome SOME DR, like the material based DR, if the enhancement is high enough.
It is a bit of a weird rules thing. I would maybe let it bypass DR X/magic but that is a ruling rather than a rule.