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So I'm making a divine caster of a deity whose worship is banned in most countries of the Inner Sea (Norgorber), and I'm trying to decide how to handle the issue of his unholy symbol.
Is it possible to keep a holy/unholy symbol hidden under your clothes and still use it for spellcasting? Would that require a bluff check or something?
He'll be openly wearing a holy symbol of a different deity that he claims to worship, and making bluff checks for that whenever it comes up in conversation. So I'm picturing him wearing both (un)holy symbols as necklaces, one above the clothing, and one below it, and putting his hand over that area of his chest whenever he casts a spell.
Of course, the obvious answer is the birthmark trait, but I have other traits I'd rather take, so I'd prefer not to have to give one of those up. If I can get a good answer here that won't run into too much table variation, I'll go with that. But I suspect I'll end up with the birthmark.
Hmm... usually a divine focus for spellcasting needs to be handled in some way - if it's a concealed item, wouldn't it take longer to "handle" (the way a concealed weapon takes longer to draw)?
Obviously you couldn't channel this way, but the rules are vague about exactly what one must do with a divine focus during spellcasting. And that probably means table variation.
I think so. Probably slight of hand with some serious bonuses, and no ones really looking most of the time.
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Lamplighter and BNW are right. Even with Birthmark, you cannot channel energy unless you present your unholy symbol. For spellcasting the waters are muddier. Some GMs might require you to present your unholy symbol as a divine focus. Some might not. Invest in Sleight of Hand (for swapping out holy symbols) and Bluff (for convincing everyone you are a cleric of the other deity). You should be fine.
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Well, he's not channeling energy as an inquisitor, so that's not an issue.
I was already planning to invest heavily in bluff, to lie about what god I worship. I'm doing the infiltrator archetype, which adds wisdom to bluff and diplomacy, on top of the normal charisma. And I'm probably going halfling, with the alternate racial trait that gives +2 bluff. I even plan to get a really fancy holy symbol that costs twice as much as the standard silver holy symbol, and call it a masterwork tool for +2 on bluff checks to pretend to be a worshiper of that deity.
I just have to decide which deity I'll pretend to worship. I was originally thinking Calistria, since she offers the same domains I was thinking of taking. But that's just not a goddess whose worshipers you want to risk angering, and my PC will be smart enough to know that. Now I'm considering Pharasma, whose worshipers might not be as angry, but how pissed off will she be when the guy who pretended to be her inquisitor finally meets her? After you die is just not the time that you want her to be angry with you. Nethys is another option, if I go with the domain I'm considering (still haven't decided for sure). As long as I'm using magic, I think he'd actually be fine with this deception.
But back on topic, sleight of hand will be tougher for me than bluff, since it's not a class skill. But I will have some dexterity for archery, and a +2 racial bonus from the same alternate racial trait that gives +2 bluff. Again, I need more traits, though, if I'm going to try and find a way to make this a class skill.
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I suggest Sarenrae.
- 1. Her followers are going to hate you if they learn you worship Norgorber anyway.
2. The fact that Honesty is one of her areas of concern makes this choice especially poetic.
Re: Sleight of Hand
Does your build have room for a dip into rogue? Perhaps the unchained version to get free Weapon Finesse for one melee weapon also?
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LOL This conversation has come full circle. One of my original concepts for this PC was to maybe go dex based melee unchained rogue with just a dip in inquisitor. But I decided to stick to straight inquisitor.
The deities I'm considering pretending to worship all offer the domains I'm considering taking (Trickery or Knowledge(Memory)), to make the lie more believable. Otherwise, Sarenrae would be a fun, ironic choice.
On Golarion there actually IS an order of Norgorberites that operate as Pharasmins, so being a pretend Pharasmin isn't that far off. Pharasma judges you based on how you follow your deity if you have one, and in this case faking being one of her clergy is just brownie points. Her church, on the other hand, might hate your guts.
The Black Markets player companion has an item called the Recondite Holy Symbol that will look different enough from a typical holy symbol of Norgorber that those untrained in Knowledge Religion won't be able to ID (DC 15 check). The most recent player companion, Agents of Evil, has an item called Anaphexis Robes specifically to facilitate disguising yourself as a Pharasmin.
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There is a Norgorber magic item that describes Norgorber's mask holy symbol as looking like an unmarked shield. Is there a deity that has a shield as their holy symbol?
Port Godless lists the DC to spot a caster using a holy symbol as DC 15 (perception or sense motive) with a possible increase of up to +5 to represent mitigating factors (presumably this would include successful attempts to conceal the holy symbol.)
I am not sure I would allow you to cast spells while presenting the holy symbol of a different deity.
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The holy symbol of the different deity isn't for casting. It's just for show. Though I might occasionally pretend to use it with one hand, while actually grabbing my real holy symbol under my robes with the other hand while casting.
Technarken, where can I find info on the Norgorberites pretending to be Pharasmins? I didn't know about that one, and it could fit my back story.
I just had a fun, slightly creepy thought. Given that this guy worships Norgorber in his role as the god of secrets, and joined the Pathfinders to uncover as many secrets as possible, this seems like it might be a fun way to introduce him every session:
Before you is a halfling dressed entirely in black, with a crossbow and other typical adventuring gear. Dangling from a necklace is a very fancy silver holy symbol of Pharasma.
"Hello, fellow Pathfinders. I am Julian Lightfoot, inquisitor of Pharasma. The lady of graves commands me to hunt down the unholy walking dead whereever they may be found."
"Hopefully, this will be an easy mission, but we all know how dangerous being a Pathfinder can be. So I'll be happy to hear confessions, if anyone has any secrets they'd like to get off their chest before we begin, just in case you go to meet Pharasma before we return home."
Of course, I'd then follow it up with calls for sense motive checks against my bluff check to see who figures out in character that he's lying to them. And then I'd probably reveal the truth to the table out of character.
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Interesting. They even worship the same aspect of Norgorber that I'm planning to focus on, as the god of secrets, which doesn't make sense to me. You'd think assassins would worship him as the god of murder and poison. His aspect as the god of secrets is supposed to be the patron of spies, like my character.
I don't think I'd do well pretending to be a silent monk. I like the idea of pretending to be an undead hunting inquisitor of Pharasma, not some cloistered monk. Assuming I don't change my mind about what domain to take, I think I'll go with that.
Besides my local PFS scene already has a silent monk. Amusing character - he actually has a vow of truth, not silence, but because of that, Zarta Dralneen made him take a vow of silence also before she'd let him join the Dark Archive.
Besides my local PFS scene already has a silent monk. Amusing character - he actually has a vow of truth, not silence, but because of that, Zarta Dralneen made him take a vow of silence also before she'd let him join the Dark Archive.
That is excellent.
Pharasma judges you based on how you follow your deity if you have one, and in this case faking being one of her clergy is just brownie points.
I had the same response in mind.
Don't fear Pharasma, she doesn't hold grudges if you pretend to be one of her followers if you do so because of your actual religious beliefs.|
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Heh. I'm really starting to like the Pharasma idea. He can claim his goal in life is to hunt undead, even though it isn't. But then he'll end up actually hunting some just to keep up the cover story. Pharasma would love that.
And the bit about offering confessions to fellow Pathfinders, to try and learn about their secrets, would advance his real goal of trying to find out as many secrets as possible. It's the type of thing that will give a sense motive roll, since he's not acting like a normal priest of Pharasma, but it might seem close enough to work as a cover story. :)
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Interesting. They even worship the same aspect of Norgorber that I'm planning to focus on, as the god of secrets, which doesn't make sense to me. You'd think assassins would worship him as the god of murder and poison. His aspect as the god of secrets is supposed to be the patron of spies, like my character.
I don't think I'd do well pretending to be a silent monk. I like the idea of pretending to be an undead hunting inquisitor of Pharasma, not some cloistered monk. Assuming I don't change my mind about what domain to take, I think I'll go with that.
Besides my local PFS scene already has a silent monk. Amusing character - he actually has a vow of truth, not silence, but because of that, Zarta Dralneen made him take a vow of silence also before she'd let him join the Dark Archive.
Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead.
Bah, death is no obstacle for the Lady of Graves!
There is also some information on the Anaphaxia in some of the background material for the adventure path
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it's a surer thing if both of them are dead...
AND have had their lower jaws removed.
I would like to say that this is one of the best character ideas I've seen for a while.
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Divine casters of evil gods are often a hindrance, particularly if the players are expecting spells like Align Weapon Good, Protection From Evil or spontaneous Cures. Tell the players you worship Calistria and favour negative energy, if you want to keep Norgorber secret. Sarenrae or Pharasma may cause too much confusion. Inquisitors may not have the same issues as players seem to expect less divine aid from them.
At my table, any spell that requires a Divine Focus must have line of effect from the (un)holy symbol. Tattoo, birthmark or Ploog's skull generally must be visible for anything other than personal effect. Of course, seeing it and knowing what it is are two very different things.
If you want to get into the God Of Secrets thing, I suggest you read "Lythande".
As an inquisitor, he doesn't have channeling or spontaneous cures, so nobody should expect that. And with the infiltrator archetype, he can cast spells opposed to his deity's alignment, so I'll be able to cast stuff like Protection from Evil with no problem.
I don't know where you're getting the idea of the divine focus needing line of effect to all targets. I know channeling specifically says that you need to present your holy symbol, but I usually imagine holy symbols being worn on necklaces, with the caster grabbing them in one hand while casting. If the holy symbol is in front of you, does that mean your body blocks the effect, so your allies behind you don't get the benefit of Bless?
Actually, I've started looking at spells, and realized that a lot fewer inquisitor spells even require a divine focus than I thought. Stuff like Bless, Cure Light Wounds, and Protection from Evil make great wands or scrolls, so I won't ever need to cast them with my own components. The Wrath and Command spells I was thinking of starting with don't require a divine focus. And I was still debating the 0 level spells, with most of those that I want to take not needing a divine focus, either. So I could conceivably just not have an unholy symbol or birthmark to my deity, if none of my spells require it.
I don't think I'll be able to keep that up forever, though. There are definitely higher level spells that I'll want that require a divine focus.
Actually, I was looking at the spell list, and Spiritual Weapon made me laugh. It's a good spell that I'd consider taking, but the weapon will look like Norborger's favored weapon, which is a short sword. I was already planning to not carry his favored weapon, just to keep up the ruse. I suppose I could just claim that the short sword of the Spiritual Weapon is actually just a slightly longer than average dagger (Pharasma's favored weapon). I might need to take skill focus: bluff before I start casting that one.
If you spend the coin (150gp from memory?) your Holy Symbol of Pharasma should count as a masterwork tool (bluff). It's only going to help you with bluffs to convince people you worship Pharasma, not any other bluffs, so it's hardly game-breaking.
Also if you've done your bluffing well enough it should give you a circumstance bonus to your slight of hand checks to use your actual holy symbol (I must've seen that wrong, your Holy Symbol's blue and white, right? Must have caught the light funny...)
So the 2 should feed off each other pretty well.
Expect some table variation for these things, and talk to the GM before playing (obviously).
Sounds like a fun character
If you want to get into the God Of Secrets thing, I suggest you read "Lythande".
Sorry for the OT... I didn't realize she wrote a book about that character! I remember Lythande from Thieves World book 1... :-)
Edit: Oops. It's not a novel/book, but a collection of short stories/novellas.
If you have the Bluff score to back it up, the Power of Suggestion trait could be your ticket out of getting caught with the "wrong" Holy Symbol.
Is there any rule that says a holy symbol cannot be hidden in another object? If not you may be able to hide your actual unholy symbol inside a fake holy symbol of another deity. Another option is to get a weapon with the reliquary special ability. This way your weapon or shield functions as a divine focus. The reliquary will probably need to be part of a magic weapon so will not work at first level.
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VRMH, that Power of Suggestion trait could be fun and flavorful. But half my problem is trying to avoid taking an extra trait for this (Birthmark). But given how interesting that one is, I might actually want to go with that instead of Birthmark, if I end up going that route. Thanks for the suggestion.
Another option is to get a weapon with the reliquary special ability. This way your weapon or shield functions as a divine focus. The reliquary will probably need to be part of a magic weapon so will not work at first level.
I think I've heard of this in the past, but don't know any details. I tried checking the prd, but I can't find this property anywhere, only a crafting feat, which I'm assuming will be disallowed for PFS. Where can I find info on this, and is it PFS legal?
While you cannot take the feat for PFS you should be able to purchase a weapon made with the feat. Otherwise no magic items would be allowed in PFS.
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While you cannot take the feat for PFS you should be able to purchase a weapon made with the feat. Otherwise no magic items would be allowed in PFS.
A reliquary has no official cost, so you can't buy one. In fact, it was asked a while back and confirmed.
I don't play PFS so do not keep up with their rulings, but there is a cost listed in the description of the feat. That link looks to be almost 3 years old.
Benefit: When you craft a magic weapon, magic armor, or magic shield, you may add one casting of consecrate or desecrate as part of the item crafting process. This increases the item's price by 250 gp. The item becomes a reliquary and can be used as a holy (or unholy) symbol divine focus of your deity. If you cast consecrate or desecrate, your reliquary counts as a permanent fixture for that spell while it remains in the spell's area.
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Yeah, I was thinking that would be a problem for PFS. The feat might say what the cost is, but in PFS, you can't buy any custom items. If it's not in the equipment chapter of a book, and specifically listed as PFS legal (which most things are, if they're in the equipment chapter of a book), then you can't take it in PFS.
Huh. Just noticed this thread got moved out of the PFS area, which is where I started it.
Yeah, I was thinking that would be a problem for PFS. The feat might say what the cost is, but in PFS, you can't buy any custom items. If it's not in the equipment chapter of a book, and specifically listed as PFS legal (which most things are, if they're in the equipment chapter of a book), then you can't take it in PFS.
Huh. Just noticed this thread got moved out of the PFS area, which is where I started it.
You could just buy a cup,a jar , or a belt pouch and hold the holy symbol inside if the technique were legal.
Regarding sleight of hand, the trait Wisdom in the Flesh could help, lets you use wisdom for a physical skill.
I've been considering a character like this, though at my PFS lodge there's a lot of trust/not caring so no one has a problem with characters and secrets (as long as we're not gaming for a mechanical advantage). That might vary based on your group though.
Your Norgorber cleric would only need to brandish his unholy symbol to cast spells with the Divine Focus component and to channel energy. Since channelling, according to Pathfinder artwork, looks like an explosion of brightly coloured energies, channelling negative energy would probably alert your immediate surroundings that something is wrong, anyway. So your main problem is using the spells with the DF components. The most obvious solution is to not rely on those spells when you're in the company of people you want to hide your allegiance from.
-Nearyn
Fromper, to keep threads 'on track', one can use [PFS Specific] or such in the topic, to keep folks from hitting the 'move this thing' flag.
And even if it does get moved then, you'll still hopefully only have the people weighing in on PFS-style play versus overall Pathfinder play.
Ah, well that's what I get for not double-checking.
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So I still haven't decided which traits I'm taking for this guy.
I did realize that one of the traits I wanted to take isn't as important as I thought. So I have options, and I can take Birthmark or Power of Suggestion without it messing up other stuff I want to do.
I did decide one interesting detail that I think will make his overall story arc interesting. I've decided that his life long quest is to discover the identities of the Decemvirate. So he'll play along as a faithful Pathfinder over the long term, in the hopes of reaching an important enough position to uncover that secret. That really cements my reason for joining the Society, and for not betraying them any time soon, despite having loyalties that lie elsewhere.
That's clever, I might have to steal that!
While you cannot take the feat for PFS you should be able to purchase a weapon made with the feat. Otherwise no magic items would be allowed in PFS.
Not that that would help. I assume that a reliquary weapon dedicated to Iomedae for instance would pretty much reveal itself to a Knowledged Religion check. Reliquary weapons main purpose is to allow a divine caster to keep a weapon in hand while doing things that require a divine focus.
While you cannot take the feat for PFS you should be able to purchase a weapon made with the feat. Otherwise no magic items would be allowed in PFS.Not that that would help. I assume that a reliquary weapon dedicated to Iomedae for instance would pretty much reveal itself to a Knowledged Religion check. Reliquary weapons main purpose is to allow a divine caster to keep a weapon in hand while doing things that require a divine focus.
The description in the feat does not mention that it has to have a visual manifestation of the deity. Since it is a property of a magic item spellcraft will probably be able to identify it if a detect magic is used. I think the nature of the deity will have some effect on this. A reliquary to Iomedea would probably have visual markings, but Norgorber is after all the god of secrets.
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So I found the fairly obscure Student of Philosophy trait, which lets use intelligence instead of charisma on bluff and diplomacy checks to talk to people. It doesn't work on bluff checks to feint or diplomacy to gather information, but that really doesn't matter for this PC. In other words, I can dump charisma completely, since that's all I was using it for, and add those extra points to intelligence, which is GREAT for a skill monkey PC with lots of int based skills.
I still haven't decided on a second trait, but it's probably going to be Birthmark or Power of Suggestion. Birthmark is the easy choice, but Power of Suggestion could be fun. I'll have the bluff check to make it work, and I won't actually need an unholy symbol at level 1, since none of my starting spells require a divine focus.
Power of suggestion does seem pretty fun, and setting the bluff DC at a specific value is quite useful, though I could see some players getting a bit miffed if they "beat" your bluff but are still fooled (especially if it happens repeatedly).
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And I forgot to mention: Sleight of Hand is a class skill for me, after all. I didn't realize that at first, because I missed that the Shiftless alternate racial trait from the ARG gives it as a class skill. I took that racial trait for the +2 racial bonuses to bluff and sleight of hand, but I missed SoH becoming a class skill. It'll still suck at low levels, due to armor check penalties, but by level 4 or 5, I'll have more skill ranks and better armor, so I should be pretty good at it.
So I could have the potential to be good at switching out (un)holy symbols quickly and stealthily in battle, but the exact mechanics are going to be subject to GM discretion.
Still, Birthmark is the easiest choice, and the least disruptive. If this was a home campaign, where I could work things out with the GM and other players in advance, and never have to discuss it again, I would be more likely to go for the sleight of hand and Power of Suggestion method. But because it's PFS, and I'd have to go through that conversation at every single table, I think I'm leaning towards Birthmark. Which will still make it fun to explain why my Spiritual Weapon spell produces a longer "dagger" than most people would expect. (Pharasma's favored weapon is a dagger, while Norgorber's is a short sword, so they are similar enough for me to bluff it away.)
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So I stopped by the local gaming store for other things, and I checked out the Anaphexia listing in the Agents of Evil book. Apparently, they ritually cut out the tongues of new members, which is why they're a silent order. So that won't work for my back story, which I already wrote.
So now I need to come up with a new back story to replace the one I already wrote.