PFS Azlanti?


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1/5

16 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

All,

I'm playing

Spoiler:
Curse of the Lady's Light
with my group, and we're running PFS characters through it. We're about to reach
Spoiler:
the trap that will put you into the clone of Sorshen.
Knowing my party, it is likely that one of them will end up as pure-blooded Azlanti very soon.

My question is, what happens when the player of that character tries to bring him back to regular PFS? Everything I've been able to find has said that you cannot START as an Azlanti character, but in this case the race would be forced upon them. Should I just not record the (effective) reincarnation on the character sheet? In that case, I wouldn't want to put the two negative levels on there either, for fairness' sake.

What do you all think?

5/5

The character would need to have the condition removed, and returned to their own body, or get marked as dead.

Scarab Sages 1/5

Is it a condition being stuck in a trap?

5/5

The condition that needs to be cleared is not having the character's soul in its original body.

Scarab Sages 1/5

Brian Lefebvre wrote:
The condition that needs to be cleared is not having the character's soul in its original body.

Can you please advise what that condition is called and where it is found in the Core Rulebook? Also, how much does it cost to clear it? I'd like to make a note for future reference please.

5/5

First bullet point under the prestige table on pg. 26. Which points back to pg. 23 of the campaign guide under conditions, death and expendables. The soul was removed from the body, so the effect (I assume a spell or curse) that triggered it would need to be cleared before the end of the game or the character gets marked as dead.

Dark Archive 4/5 5/55/5 ****

Having an illegal race makes it an illegal character. In this specific instance, a solution is laid out.

(By the way, you've reversed how the spoilers are supposed to work.)

The Module in Question:

In the text, a specific solution is given. "This lingering
effect... can be dispelled, although it functions at caster level 20th"

In order to remove the condition, the player needs to pay for Dispel Magic castings/have someone cast it, until they are removed from the body, then would need a Raise Dead and 2 Restorations as normal.

Grand Lodge 4/5

A similar event can happen in another adventure. The result appears as a boon on the chronicle if it's not dealt with by the end of the session.

Spoiler:
Emerald Spire Level 15: Runes of Change

If the PFS team haven't done the same for this module, I'd have to assume they don't intend for the effect to remain in play and it must be cleared.


Pg 25 of the guide to society organized play wrote:

All spells and effects end at the end of a scenario with the following exceptions:

Spells and effects with permanent or instantaneous
duration that heal damage, repair damage, or remove
harmful conditions remain in effect at the end of the
scenario.
Afflictions and harmful conditions obtained during
a scenario remain until healed and carry over from
scenario to scenario (except in specific instances as
noted on Page 22).
• A character may have one each of the following spells that
carries overs from scenario to scenario: continual flame,
masterwork transformation, secret chest, and secret page.

The clone spell would go away at the end of the scenario.

The player would then probably need a raise dead.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

Re: MichaelCullen's post above - does the Clone spell, in this instance, remove a harmful condition (i.e., Death)?

I think that's what it boils down to - is death considered a harmful condition, and does the Clone spell qualify as removing it?

Grand Lodge 5/5

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Mike Bramnik wrote:

Re: MichaelCullen's post above - does the Clone spell, in this instance, remove a harmful condition (i.e., Death)?

I think that's what it boils down to - is death considered a harmful condition, and does the Clone spell qualify as removing it?

How about more cosmically. Which is more harmful - the condition of death on a single person or that person's soul not going to the Boneyard at the appropriate time?

Dark Archive 4/5 **** Venture-Agent, Indiana—Bloomington

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I have major problems with the whole line of reasoning. If a player fails the trap, they die. Then they are reincarnated into the clone, which takes care of the dead condition. Reincarnation is not normally legal in PFS, but as part of the written sanctioned content, it becomes legal for this scenario. I see this working more like a curse, though it is not a curse. There is no spell or service that can undo a Reincarnation, so there is no condition gained. It is a transformation, and so the it seems like a legal way to become, and play, an Azlanti, even though you can't legally start as one. If they didn't intend for this possibility, then they shouldn't have sanctioned the first room of this dungeon.

Dark Archive 4/5 **** Venture-Agent, Indiana—Bloomington

Looking more closely, Reincarnation is the instantaneous duration spell that removes all harmful conditions on the character, so it wold remain in effect at the end of the scenario, and it also removes the Death condition. Clone creates a permanent body, which wouldn't be destroyed, and technically heals all the damage done to the dead character's body when their soul enters and binds to it. While Resurrection may never be used, found, purchased, or learned by a PC, there is nothing that says it can't be used on a PC by an NPC, or the environment. So, a trap designed to use it on a PC is not illegal by the rules of PFS. I see nothing that would make the change illegal, and so it should be listed as a change on the character's chronicle sheet, and seems to be a legal, and valid, way for a character to become Azlanti.

4/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
morbon wrote:
I see nothing that would make the change illegal, and so it should be listed as a change on the character's chronicle sheet, and seems to be a legal, and valid, way for a character to become Azlanti.

The problem with this is that Azlanti get +2 to every stat. Balance-wise, this is not ideal and I could potentially see all sorts of people fighting over this to be the one to get it.

I honestly think there should probably be a ruling for this specific case as it is quite unique. I don't feel it is "right" for them to have to get a raise dead, but I also don't feel that making a character Azlanti in PFS is balanced.

4/5

I can see The line of reasoning the character in question could become Azlanti, but after playing that scenario he could never play any others as Azlanti is not a legal playable race.

It would be a cool chronicle sheet for a character ending.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 *** Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha

Is this in a sanctioned module?

Silver Crusade 5/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Meanwhile, back at the lodge...

Pathfinder A: So, you ready to do this?

Pathfinder B: Yeah, it's been fun running around like this, but regulations won't let me get back to work like this. Let's get this done.

Pathfinder A violently cuts down Pathfinder B, Pathfinder C casts raise dead.

Pathfinder C: Man, you guys are weird.

Silver Crusade 1/5 Contributor

KingOfAnything wrote:
Is this in a sanctioned module?

It's part of Shattered Star, so if that Path is sanctioned, yes.

1/5 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
UndeadMitch wrote:

Meanwhile, back at the lodge...

Pathfinder A: So, you ready to do this?

Pathfinder B: Yeah, it's been fun running around like this, but regulations won't let me get back to work like this. Let's get this done.

Pathfinder A violently cuts down Pathfinder B, Pathfinder C casts raise dead.

Pathfinder C: Man, you guys are weird.

Don't forget:

Pathfinder A is *now retired* for the PvP action.

The Exchange 3/5

I think it does work but should probably be ruled on by campaign leadership.

There is something similar on the Emerald Spire chronicle sheets and asks you to record the new race on that sheet. I assume for this you would write down Azlanti Human F. You could even buy an Elixir of Sex Shifting if you wanted to be M.

When I ran this nobody failed this and I didn't think too much about it. It would be particularly harsh to make the PC get a Wish, Miracle, or True Res as the book says would be needed but Clone is very specific that the person can't raise that body anymore.

Silver Crusade 5/5

If I had to adjudicate this complicated situation, I would consider the following points:

-Pure Azlanti are too powerful to be in PFS.

-:
The trap in question does kill the PC, but brings them back in one of Sorshen's clones.

-The normal way to come back is a raise dead and two restorations.

-Not much about this situation is normal.

So, if I had the power to adjudicate this as I see fit (I don't of course, but since this entire thing right now is hypothetical I'm going to continue like I did), where does that leave us? The most simple solution is a raise and restos, but considering the nature of trap, is that unnecessarily punitive? What other solutions besides allowing the PC to play an illegal race do we have? I would probably go with one of the following:

1: The character in question has to get a raise dead to continue playing in the campaign.

OR

2a: If the character wanted to keep the new body for fun and/or RP reasons, I would allow the character to continue on in the campaign as a normal human, having them adjust their character accordingly.

2b: If the PC wanted their old body back I would require the standard raise.

To be clear, I don't get to choose how to rule it. I'm about 99.9% sure that the correct answer for PFS is number one. If it were up to me, I would go with number two.


+1 to the request for official clarification.


Also would the answer be different if they went into their own clone, say in a high level sanctioned module?

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'd take a 'slightly different' go at it, which would be a neat story development, but not sure if it'd work for the setting.

While the trap does one thing, it does not do the other thing, which is 'give the character an Azlanti-style soul'?

So superficially they're Azlanti-ish (which isn't too unusual given Taldor and other nationalities), but they just get the 'normal human adjustments'?

Now, if they were a different race and this went off, that might be a bit disconcerting, and some folks would go the route at that point of 'Ugh, get me out if this filthy human body!'

The Exchange 3/5

I'm gonna point out again you cannot raise dead them. That clearly isn't the answer unless ruled otherwise.


I wish there was a method for "quick fixes" from campaign staff for issues like this.
Unlikely rules interactions that have unintention devastating effects on a character.

Dark Archive 4/5 5/55/5 ****

I'll refer people to the spoiler in my first post. A way to remove oneself from being Azlanti is called out in the module. Specific overrides general. Playing an Azlanti is not legal, so if one becomes an Azlanti, the condition must be cleared just as getting to an evil alignment must be.

Scarab Sages 2/5

Lots of things are not legal until something in a game happens and opens the option up to you.

Dark Archive 4/5 5/55/5 ****

Lorewalker wrote:
Lots of things are not legal until something in a game happens and opens the option up to you.

In those cases, it is specifically called out on a chronicle sheet or boon, if it can last beyond the end of a scenario. Otherwise, things of that nature don't remain open. It's not something called out on the chronicle, and it would be unbalancing to the game as a whole, so I don't see why there's reason to consider it further.

If I'm wrong and it can be done, sign me up as the first person to play it and intentionally fail my saves when approaching that trap.

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Heck, I'd take it how it rolled, no intentional failing required.

And if somehow a character ended up in that circumstance, I wouldn't be looking for the brie of 'True Azlanti' but incredibly thankful that the character *was not dead*.

4/5 5/5

Dude, this is awesome!

Imma gonna play this scenario and deliberately fail. +2 to all my stats for the cost of two restorations? Hells Yeah!

OK Bro, who wanna run this for me? I'll speed run it for you afterwards!

Silver Crusade 5/5

DrParty06 wrote:
I'll refer people to the spoiler in my first post. A way to remove oneself from being Azlanti is called out in the module. Specific overrides general. Playing an Azlanti is not legal, so if one becomes an Azlanti, the condition must be cleared just as getting to an evil alignment must be.

No, I saw your earlier post. I would just be inclined to handwave the dispel, the character is already paying for the raise, no need to make the death unnecessarily punishing on the player, especially since in the AP they get the option of staying in their new form, while that option is not on the table for PFS. I'm not going to make someone pay to try and have dispel magic get rid of a CL 20 effect that they only have a 50/50 shot of succeeding at.

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There are far *worse* bodies to end up in, seriously.

Even without the +2 to all abilities one could do far worse than this

Note: Embedded Ioun Stones sold separately

The Exchange 3/5

UndeadMitch wrote:
the character is already paying for the raise

What for?

From Clone:

Quote:
The original's physical remains, should they still exist, become inert and cannot thereafter be restored to life.

Curse of Lady's Light:

Quote:
Restoring a character's previous body is difficult but not impossible, a wish or miracle can achieve this change as can true resurrection

If you fail you get the body and your old body is dead. If you have to clear the condition those spells are the only way.

Silver Crusade 5/5

Ragoz wrote:
UndeadMitch wrote:
the character is already paying for the raise

What for?

From Clone:

Quote:
The original's physical remains, should they still exist, become inert and cannot thereafter be restored to life.

Curse of Lady's Light:

Quote:
Restoring a character's previous body is difficult but not impossible, a wish or miracle can achieve this change as can true resurrection
If you fail you get the body and your old body is dead. If you have to clear the condition those spells are the only way.

I would just require a raise, because requiring a true res/wish/miracle from 4-6 level character is unnecessarily harsh for a trap for PFS play, if we were talking about home game mode I would just play it as it lies but the discussion is about PFS mode.If you would adjudicate it differently that is fine, but I am not going to bother to argue the point further.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

There is a severe disadvantage of this particular situation that appears much later in the AP. Playing through only that part of the adventure gives the PC the low-level cool thing, without the consequences that come later.

Silver Crusade 1/5 Contributor

What's the disadvantage? Spoiler-tag as necessary.

All I remember are opportunities to use the form for trickery - certainly nothing i would call a "severe disadvantage". (I haven't read it in a while, though.)

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Spoiler:
The villain really doesn't like Sorshen.

Silver Crusade 1/5 Contributor

Spoiler:
Having looked over The Dead Heart of Xin again, it doesn't look like being in the clone actually does anything bad. The worst thing is having to fight some mezlans... that you would have had to fight anyway. The only interaction with Xin I saw was that her presence automatically triggers Vision #1, which again, was going to happen anyway.

Could you be more specific, please? I just name-searched Sorshen in the PDF, so maybe I missed something.

Dark Archive 4/5 **** Venture-Agent, Indiana—Bloomington

You couldn't make them pay for a Raise Dead or Resurrection, as they suffered from a Reincarnation, so they can't go back to their old body, as the new Clone body is the body their soul is now attached to, and is their proper body. You can't really require any of the other solutions, as Wish, Miracle, and True Resurrection are all 9th level spells, and PFS doesn't allow one to purchase spell casting services for spells of 7th level or higher.

I know Azlanti are overpowered, and not legal because the ability bonuses are unbalanced for PFS. My problem is that the effects of the trap specifically explain how to alter the character when they are Reincarnated into the Clone body. If you kill them and then try to Raise Dead or Resurrect them, they will just come back in the Clone body. Either, that first room should not have been sanctioned, as it is where the trap is located, and causes this whole thing to be possible, or it needs to have been added to the chronicle sheet as a boon. Otherwise, it would work like any permanent curse obtained, in that the transformation would stay with the character, and would have to be noted by the GM on the chronicle sheet.

I know it is unbalanced, and could cause players to fight over who gets to trigger, and thus purposely fail, the trap. It is not ideal. It can all be fixed by just not running the first sanctioned room of the dungeon. For some reason that room was sanctioned, and so until it is stated otherwise, the content of that room, and the consequences of the trap, are technically sanctioned. I can't see any other legal PFS decisions to deny that, until someone specifically in charge of PFS sanctioned content states otherwise.

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I suspect that a 'happy medium' would be what I suggested earlier. No Azlanti 'soul'?

No +2 to everything, take your standard Human modifiers. +2 to everything is for folks who are playing the AP in campaign mode.

Easy fix.

The Exchange 3/5

morbon wrote:

as Wish, Miracle, and True Resurrection are all 9th level spells, and PFS doesn't allow one to purchase spell casting services for spells of 7th level or higher.

True Resurrection is a legal spell casting service for 26,530 gold or 77 prestige. There is a solution to this problem already as much as people rather not make someone do this.

Anyone who runs into this situation should probably use the True Res rules provided in the guild guide or mark them dead (or an Azlanti).

Silver Crusade 5/5

Ragoz wrote:
morbon wrote:

as Wish, Miracle, and True Resurrection are all 9th level spells, and PFS doesn't allow one to purchase spell casting services for spells of 7th level or higher.

True Resurrection is a legal spell casting service for 26,530 gold or 77 prestige. There is a solution to this problem already as much as people rather not make someone do this.

Anyone who runs into this situation should probably use the True Res rules provided in the guild guide or mark them dead (or an Azlanti).

Which, in subtier 4-6, you might as well just tear up their character sheet. A True Res costs more than double a fifth level characters WBL and over four times a fourth level characters WBL, but only 10k more than a sixth level characters WBL. Which for just about any table is going to be completely unmanageable, esecially considering how most people have a majority of their wealth tied up in gear. That's asking too much for that level range. If a character got hit with that and the table wanted to bring them back, it would leave the entire table destitute.


I agree that the room in question should not be sanctioned or it should appear on the chronical sheet.

Scarab Sages 2/5

MichaelCullen wrote:
Pg 25 of the guide to society organized play wrote:

All spells and effects end at the end of a scenario with the following exceptions:

Spells and effects with permanent or instantaneous
duration that heal damage, repair damage, or remove
harmful conditions remain in effect at the end of the
scenario.
Afflictions and harmful conditions obtained during
a scenario remain until healed and carry over from
scenario to scenario (except in specific instances as
noted on Page 22).
• A character may have one each of the following spells that
carries overs from scenario to scenario: continual flame,
masterwork transformation, secret chest, and secret page.

The clone spell would go away at the end of the scenario.

The player would then probably need a raise dead.

Allow me to add more bold to show you should have read farther than the first sentence. There is an exception to the general rule that spells and effects end. Ones that remove negative conditions, such as death(which is what clone does, and also this trap) always remain in effect. Otherwise you would have to raise dead a character at the beginning of every adventure if they ever died.

This effect does fall under the general blanket of permanent/instantaneous effects that remove harmful conditions.

Whether or not it should be dealt with by PFS management, well, it probably(certainly) should be. But, the effect is clear as is the rule on what effects continue after the adventure.

Thus, what must be done is clear as well. Unless you change the adventure or ignore the rule of what effects continue at the end of an adventure, you must let it stand and it is in the hands of PFS management to decide if they will allow it to continue or not.

The same would be true if a character died and part of the adventure said 'If character A dies, NPC B casts reincarnation on them.' Reincarnation cures death, and would thus be permanent as per PFS rules even though it is not legal for a PC to cast the spell.

I'm not saying I like this in the slightest. My opinions are my own and make no difference to the facts. I am only attempting to present the facts here.

Though, there may be a clarification somewhere I have never seen.

Pg 25 of the guide to society organized play wrote:

All spells and effects end at the end of a scenario with the following exceptions:

Spells and effects with permanent or instantaneous
duration that heal damage, repair damage, or remove
harmful conditions remain in effect at the end of the
scenario.
Afflictions and harmful conditions obtained during
a scenario remain until healed and carry over from
scenario to scenario (except in specific instances as
noted on Page 22).

• A character may have one each of the following spells that
carries overs from scenario to scenario: continual flame,
masterwork transformation, secret chest, and secret page.

An addendum to this:

You could consider it an affliction or condition with mechanical benefits. But if this is an affliction that would require saying clone is an affliction. And, existing in a cloned body is not a negative condition, much less a condition defined in 'conditions' in the CRB. As well, anyone caught in this trap would almost certainly have to be reported as dead at the end of the adventure due to the overwhelming cost of 'curing' being raised from the dead in this way.
Essentially, this runs into the same issue reincarnate runs into, again. I return to the earlier analogy where a scenario calls out an NPC casting reincarnate on a player. Do you consider that spell to not be a healing/remove negative conditions spell or a 'condition'?

Pg 23 of the PFS guide wrote:


All conditions (including death) not resolved within
the scenario or module must be resolved by the end of
the adventure. Likewise, any wealth spent or resources
expended during the course of the adventure are tracked
and must be recorded on the Chronicle sheet. [[
However, any equipment that’s listed on the
pregenerated character sheet may only be sold to clear
their own conditions during the play of a sanctioned
event, and any remaining gold does not carry over at the
end of the adventure.
All conditions gained during an adventure, except for
permanent negative levels, ability drain that does not
reduce an ability score to 0, and conditions that provide no
mechanical effect, must be resolved before the end of the
session; if these are not resolved the character should be
reported as ‘dead.’ Permanent negative levels, ability drain,
and non-mechanical conditions being carried over to the
next session should be recorded under the Notes section
of the Chronicle sheet. An unplayable character should be
marked as dead when reporting the session. See additional
rules under Dealing with Afflictions in Chapter 7.

Here is where I will add a bit of my opinion. If you don't like changing how an adventure is written nor like how the effect works, I would suggest not being an GM or player for this adventure. It is a thorny issue which should be clarified/modified by PFS managment.

Silver Crusade 5/5

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UndeadMitch wrote:
Ragoz wrote:
morbon wrote:

as Wish, Miracle, and True Resurrection are all 9th level spells, and PFS doesn't allow one to purchase spell casting services for spells of 7th level or higher.

True Resurrection is a legal spell casting service for 26,530 gold or 77 prestige. There is a solution to this problem already as much as people rather not make someone do this.

Anyone who runs into this situation should probably use the True Res rules provided in the guild guide or mark them dead (or an Azlanti).

Which, in subtier 4-6, you might as well just tear up their character sheet. A True Res costs more than double a fifth level characters WBL and over four times a fourth level characters WBL, but only 10k more than a sixth level characters WBL. Which for just about any table is going to be completely unmanageable, esecially considering how most people have a majority of their wealth tied up in gear. That's asking too much for that level range. If a character got hit with that and the table wanted to bring them back, it would leave the entire table destitute.

To correct myself, it should be noted that the sanctioned portion is for levels 6-8, not 4-6 as I originally said. However, I stand by my statement, 6-8 is too soon to be throwing around an effect that would require a true res.

*

morbon wrote:
... I can't see any other legal PFS decisions to deny that, until someone specifically in charge of PFS sanctioned content states otherwise.

Please note: clicking the FAQ button on the OP is the best way to do this.


OsirionInfiltrator wrote:
Brian Lefebvre wrote:
The condition that needs to be cleared is not having the character's soul in its original body.
Can you please advise what that condition is called and where it is found in the Core Rulebook? Also, how much does it cost to clear it? I'd like to make a note for future reference please.

It's the condition of being an illegal character since being an Azlanti does not have Additional Resources support.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

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This is quite the tricky conundrum.

I'll say right off the bat that requiring true resurrection or wish in order to continue playing one's character is just too costly for this situation. It's also the case that continuing to play as a full-blooded Azlanti with all the accompanying ability score increases is not in the interest of the campaign.

It's true that one of the The Emerald Spire Superdungeon Chronicle sheets does reference a phenomenon that can change the PC's race and gender, and I feel that does a relatively clean job of covering a sudden and decisive change to a PC's race without calling for a complete rebuild. On the other hand, I'm not going to call it the idea solution; even reviewing it now, I can see some weird loopholes that would bother me more if it didn't show up near the end of a conventional Pathfinder Society character's career.

It seems like there are three different options in how to rule this—similar in ways to the ones Undead Mitch noted.

1) The clone effect ends, and the magically created body crumbles at the end of the scenario. The PC got to parade around with superheroic stats for several dozen encounters, but now she's dead. Raise dead would restore her to her original body.

2) The entire effect—death, clone, and new body shape—ends. Because the clone effectively brought the PC back to life immediately, she wasn't really dead at the end of the scenario. The condition clears, and if the player so desires, the PC might retain a Sorchen-esque appearance (even if she's a halfling who looks rather like that runelord).

2.1) The entire effect ends, but the PC still has to clear the permanent negative levels.

3) Create an exception that allows a PC to change her race. This would require a significant amount of rules language and a modest amount of rebuilding. It might also result in some weird rules side effects like halflings with a Strength bonus or Medium gnomes.

To me, #2.1 feels like the best option. It's not especially punitive, and it doesn't open up weird character design loopholes. Thoughts or concerns?

1/5 5/5

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

2.1 seems like a 'fair' way to handle it. And by potentially keeping 'the look', it's right along the lines of what I had suggested in the thread, but instead of race-changing to 'just human' allowing players to keep their original race (however, with the option to look a bit different) but still requiring the permanent negative levels cleared indicates that yes, this was *indeed a trap*.

The cosmetic changes in this case are sort of like the 't-shirt' for 'surviving' the trap.

Hmmm...

"I survived Sorchen's death trap and all I got was these looks to show for it..."

Catchy!

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