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What should I do with my stats? (First game)

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My DM is quite the traditionalist and want's us to make characters where we roll each stat in order and we get what we're given, I rolled the following on the 3D6 classic system.

STR:18
DEX:10
CON:11
INT:15
WIS:11
CHA:9

High INT/STR but low CON seems like an awkward place to be, so what should I do with this character, my first instinct was a Gish of some, a crossblooded sage/draconic sorcerer so I can become a dragon disciple and cast with my int and maybe take a few fighter levels too. What do you people think? What should this character be?

Go human fighter and get toughness as feat. Go the reach weapon routine and you should be fairly ok. Or go barbarian. Booth can do ok with high con. OR be a stonelord dwarf paladin. Doesn´t need high cha and the con and wis from dwarf helps.

This character should probably be scared.

High Str. only is not a great place to be at all. Low con isn't great, but with Heavy Armor it's not a death sentence to a melee character and unfortunately Str. being your only high stat you are probably shoehorned into that.

The bad new is that without GM Fiat Crossblooded does not work with Sage. 15 Int. is a bit on the meh side for casting too.

The good news is that the feat Artful Dodge exists. Without it there are a ton of melee options you just wouldn't have. 15 Int. is just good enough to open up all the doors you need open.
Liberty's Edge

You could play a human (or half-human) wizard and add the +2 to INT. You would be "wasting" the 18 STR, but you will be staying out of melee so the relatively low CON will hurt less.

I'd also recommend a dwarven reach build. Use the dwarven martial proficiency in dwarven boulder helmet and dwarven long axe to threaten at both ranges and always have two damage types available.
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If your GM is being a traditionalist about your ability scores, perhaps he is being a traditionalist about other things.

Are there any other rules and guidelines we should know about before I advise you do in the direction of taking some kind of radical, hypercomplex monstrosity?

All my characters are radical, hypercomplex monstrosities.

Is the Gish Dragon Disciple build not recommended then? I was thinking the way dragon disciple is built I could buff, debuff, blast and use a long spear to support other melee characters who are more tanky sorcerer/fighter/DD The Draconic/sage crossblooding is being allowed even though it breaks a few rules just because he thought it seemed cool.

I also have the option of playing as a character with these stats since there is a spare character sheet

STR: 12
DEX: 16
CON: 10
INT: 10
WIS: 8
CHA: 14

Would that be better?

Hyper complex monstrosities are allowed

Dwarven Ranger with reach weapon? not that it's a better suggestion then barbarian or fighter... I just like Rangers... Seriously, though, I would grab a bardiche, combat expertise, and a bunch of trip feats, and get my trip game on. But that's just me.

Consider a slayer shield slam build. A dwarf with the relentless alt trait is good for this.

Is the second set of stats easier to work with than the first?

You could make an ok character from either. With the second set I would maybe make an elven archer summoner.

I think I'd enjoy the first set more as a dwarven reach build or dwarven shield slam build.
Michael Moran 560 wrote:
Is the Gish Dragon Disciple build not recommended then? I was thinking the way dragon disciple is built I could buff, debuff, blast and use a long spear to support other melee characters who are more tanky sorcerer/fighter/DD The Draconic/sage crossblooding is being allowed even though it breaks a few rules just because he thought it seemed cool.

It's questionable. Mostly because you have paper thin defenses without heavy armor. Yes, you can try to use a reach weapon, but you'll still be really close to the front lines and you are a point short of where you really want to be for casting. The real kicker is there is no race with good ability scores for that build. I know this is heresy, but I'd rather have two good ability scores for a Gish than play a human.

Michael Moran 560 wrote:

I also have the option of playing as a character with these stats since there is a spare character sheet

STR: 12
DEX: 16
CON: 10
INT: 10
WIS: 8
CHA: 14

Would that be better?

Honestly, probably yes. There are a lot of ways to get Dex to hit and damage, so having high enough Dex. is a lot better. 14 Cha. isn't that much worse than 15 Int. Even in the case of playing a Dragon Disciple I would rate these as better ability scores. There are a lot of races such as Kitsune that can bolster Cha. and Dex. and Half-Elf can even get an impressive +4 Cha. making it a tempting combo.

Perhaps then I should just pick the second set of stats and be a bard with a rapier and a shortbow?
Grand Lodge

The second set of stats definitely strikes me as a Divine Hunter Paladin or an archer bard.

In an all-3d6 stats game, unless there's cheating going on, most of the rest of the group will probably be pretty weak. A martial with 18 Strength will be a valuable contributor to that party - a reach weapon and heavy armor being a good option with those stats.

Depending on item availability, one possibility is to go for a fighter (or slayer, or whatever) with a single level dip into wizard or magus; then get wands and cast defensive spells (Shield, Mirror Image) to improve your survival chances.

Or start as a Wizard who stays back and uses spells at first, then charges into battle when his allies start to take damage. At level 1 there's not much difference between a Fighter and Wizard with the same stats in terms of damage output.

The first set of stats, I'd first see if your GM will allow called shots. If so, then I'd go full fighter and focus on upping my damage and critical so that by 8th level, you take imp. crit and you're dishing out debilitating blows fairly regularly.

Otherwise, I'd still go as a fighter, probably with Mutagen Warrior and/or Eldritch Guardian (Protector Archetype for Familiar) and would also consider taking the Martial Master Archetype as well.

If you go with the second option, you definitely want to be an archer. I'd probably go Divine Hunter like Ms. P suggested, but I'd also consider a single level dip into a Hooded Champion Trapmaster Ranger. This gets you two standard action touch attacks with a bow/day, bolsters your your Fort save, and gives you a few extra skill points that can be vital to playing a functional character (I'm thinking mobility related skills, like acrobatics, climb, and swim or wait a few levels, then put them into Disable Device (4 Ranks + 3 Class Skill + 1 Ranger Trapfinding +2 Mwk. Thieves tools = +10, which should get you past 90% of traps you come across.)
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I am surprised nobody suggested a Strength-based Magus for that first statistical build. Did I miss something?

@ The Mortonator: I'm presuming you're referring to Kindred-Raised, which requires that you get a +2 to Charisma, and then +2 to one other ability score of their choice. I'd question whether the validity of removing Elven Immunities would be worth it. Additionally, there are better race choices if you're looking at statistical increases. Aasimar being the primary superiority.

My character has to be chaotic neutral for it to work due to other reasons so I can't be a paladin
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I am surprised nobody suggested a Strength-based Magus for that first statistical build. Did I miss something?

I almost did. But, eeeh. I guess I'm just kinda meh on the standard Magus with that score since it takes so long for Heavy Armor.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
@ The Mortonator: I'm presuming you're referring to Kindred-Raised, which requires that you get a +2 to Charisma, and then +2 to one other ability score of their choice. I'd question whether the validity of removing Elven Immunities would be worth it. Additionally, there are better race choices if you're looking at statistical increases. Aasimar being the primary superiority.

I didn't see a version with the word "other" written initially. The Aasimar point is very accurate though.

That's just how the D20 site has it written.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
That's just how the D20 site has it written.

Yes, I know, point is I should've checked D20. I got it. It's sad to see, +4 Cha would've been a lot more useful.

Half-elf Eldritch knight wizard(or sage sort)/fighter?

What races are allowed? That can be a game changer.
Honestly, I'd consider a small sized martial character with that first stat array, like a Gnome Fighter. That 18 is juicy enough to take a hit from racial and still be strong.

A gnome fighter also has the advantage of boosted Con. Do you guys think a dwarf druid could work? You don't need a great wisdom if you're going into Wild Shaping, and a 13 Constitution isn't so bad if you boost it the first chance you get.

What about an empiricist investigator with a fighter dip? That lets you leverage that int usefully and strength based two handed weapon melee works just fine for them. One level of Fighter gets you all the proficiencies you need to make up for that dexterity and then it's all investigator.

The hit dice are a little smaller than a fighter, but false life will fix that right up. Really, the only weaknesses of the investigator as a combat class are the delay on studied combat and the poor proficiencies and unlike other int classes they don't have to deal with spell failure if they get heavy armor proficiency.
Grand Lodge

No one mentioned magus? Really? The quintessential gish? Get a race with a CON bonus like gnome, and zap away!
Lem "The Bard" wrote:
No one mentioned magus? Really? The quintessential gish? Get a race with a CON bonus like gnome, and zap away!

The game isn't starting at level 12 or whenever magi finally get heavy armor casting and the stat array has 10 dexterity.

Lem "The Bard" wrote:
No one mentioned magus? Really? The quintessential gish? Get a race with a CON bonus like gnome, and zap away!

I did.

That makes me a very sad panda.

This is the core rulebook (He let me have crossblooded and sage because they are pretty easy to understand and he doesn't have to own the book to make sure I'm not bullshitting), I can't have magus

I'll this much

I must be a half-elf
I must be chaotic Neutral
I cannot be a magus

Perhaps a fighter/Eldritch knight would work?
Michael Moran 560 wrote:

This is the core rulebook (He let me have crossblooded and sage because they are pretty easy to understand and he doesn't have to own the book to make sure I'm not b##@*~~!ting), I can't have magus

I'll this much

I must be a half-elf
I must be chaotic Neutral
I cannot be a magus

Perhaps a fighter/Eldritch knight would work?

I don't even know why you're asking at this point. Seems like your path is set in stone. 90% of this thread's advise is useless if it's core only.

Since, you seem to have your heart set on Gish and a lack of reasonable options I suppose the original Dragon Disciple plan is good. I just wouldn't expect it to be a fantastic character.
The Mortonator wrote:
Michael Moran 560 wrote:

This is the core rulebook (He let me have crossblooded and sage because they are pretty easy to understand and he doesn't have to own the book to make sure I'm not b##@*~~!ting), I can't have magus

I'll this much

I must be a half-elf
I must be chaotic Neutral
I cannot be a magus

Perhaps a fighter/Eldritch knight would work?

I don't even know why you're asking at this point. Seems like your path is set in stone. 90% of this thread's advise is useless if it's core only.

Since, you seem to have your heart set on Gish and a lack of reasonable options I suppose the original Dragon Disciple plan is good. I just wouldn't expect it to be a fantastic character.

I'm not set on the gish, it's purely that my party of 5 already has a fighter and a barbarian in it, I can't be a magus, I can't be a paladin, and I can't be a dwarf which is because the campaign is story based and the dm has told me i have to be a neutral elf/half-elf

I suppose I should also mention knowing my DM mostly does things like call of Cthulhu he generally tries to minimize combat in favor of dialogue and stuff in towns, so having powers I can use out of combat would be very useful too.

PLOT TWIST:

I'm allowed to reroll one stat in this game, the second set of stats had not used it's reroll and I decided to reroll CON and got 15 giving the following stats

STR: 12
DEX: 16
CON: 15
INT: 10
WIS: 8
CHA: 14

I imagine this would give that second character far more options? Archer Bard perhaps?

Sounds like archer bard is your best pick at this stage. It's so hard for me to make characters without at least having the apg.
Sczarni

You won't regret bard. Make sure to pump that perform into the skies!

What about a sorcerer? A Halfling sorcerer drops your Str to 10 unfortunately but you'd get an 18 Dex and 16 Cha out of the bargain. Decent spells, used ranged touch attacks and try not to get targeted by any compulsions or mind effects.

Then again you could go grippli too. Still lose 2 Str but your Wis goes up 2. You get net proficiency and you could take a tongue at level 1 as a feat that delivers your touch attacks 10' away.

With a Wis 8 you're always going to be hurting for Will saves so best to shore that up best you can and stay away from being the party scout or survivalist.

Here's a thought. The idea of this character is that you use Dirty Tricks to lock in Sneak Attack Damage, then mulitply it by many Natural Attacks. I'm useing Pathfinder Society as a baseline set of rules, but it should work okay even if your GM does things differently. You should always vet your builds with your GM in advance nobody gets unpleasant surprises. Nobody wants characters RULED out of existence.

Race: Tengu with the Claws alternative Trait, so you have Claws and Bite
1Brawler1: Snakebite Striker, Sneak Attack 1d6 Unarmed 1d6, Dirty Fighting

You Full Attack is 1 Bite 2 Claws, and 1 Unarmed Strike. Not bad. Plus, if you win Initiative or achieve Flanking, all those attacks get +1d6.

2B2: Improved Dirty Trick
3B2Ninja1: Sneak Attack 2d6, Poison, Quick Dirty Trick

So, now, you sacrifice one of your 4 Natural attacks every round or so to Make your opponent Blind: no Dex mod to AC, so you get your Sneak Attack. Plus all the other lovely debuffs you get on a Blinded opponent.

If your opponent is still functional while Blinded, play another Dirty Trick on him the next round and make him Deaf, too. Then maybe the party Ranger can cast Negate Aroma on you, if your GM won't allow Dirty Tricks to make your opponent anosmic.

4B2N1Warpriest1: Aura, Spells, Sacred Weapon 1d6, Minor Blessings: Destruction, Earth (?), Ability +1, Weapon Focus Claws

So, now your Claws do 1d6 like your Unarmed Strikes, do, and so will all your attacks you take Weapon Focus For. The Destruction Blessing at level 1 grants +1 damage to ALL your attacks. The Earth Blessing only gives a damage bonus to 1 of them, so maybe something else.

5B2N1W1Witch1: Weapon Focus Bite, White Hair

White Hair has a sort of Grab Feature, so get Armor Spikes: and extra 1d6 damage with every Grapple Check, and since the Grapple is a seperate attack, you can get Sneak Attack Damage with a St mod bonus with this, too.

6B2N2W1Wh1: Weapon Focus Hair
7B2N3W1Wh1: Sneak Attack 3d6, Snake Style
8B2N4W1Wh1: Snake Sidewind
9B2N4W1Wh1Monk1: Combat Reflexes, Snake Fang

I LOVE Snake Fang! It's an Attack of Opportunity Hair Trigger. You get an AoO every time someone attacks you and misses & an Immediate Action Attack, too.

10B2N4W1Wh1M2: Improved Grapple
11B2N4W1Wh1M3: Maneuver Training, Drunken Ki, Hamatula Strike

At this point, your Bite and Unarmed Strikes (when using Snake Style) count as Piercing Weapon,

12B2N4W1Wh1M3Fighter1: Feral Combat Training Claws

and now your Claws, too. Which means that whenever you score a hit with one of those weapons, you get a Free Grapple Attack, and you get your Armor Spike Damage with your ST Mod again and your Sneak Attack Damage again.

You could do this with your Attacks of Opportunity, too, but there might be a problem with this. Releasing a Grapple is a Free Action, which means it can only be done during your turn, and Attacks of Opportunity happen outside your turn. So if you Grapple one guy using Snake Fang and Hamatula Strike, you may not be allowed to Release that Grapple until it's your turn again, and sometimes that's inconvenient. Although lot of the time, you can you can take Free Actions at the same time as you take other actions, so your GM might allow it. Ask before you Grapple.

If this isn't PFS, and the OP's PC isn't, then in subsequent levels take Ninja Vanishing Trick, which will be quickly replentished by Drunken Ki. You might consider being Human and gaining Claws and Bite via 2 levels in Alchemist with the Vivisectionist Archetype, and the Feral Mutagen Discovery, increasing your Sneak Attack Damage at the same time as you open the door to the Martial Versatility Feat which would allow you to apply Weapon Focus, and for that matter Improved Natural Attack to all your Natural Attacks. You might get Claws and a Bite via 2 levels in Druid with the Beast Shaman Archetype--I like Saurian Shaman--and 2 more later to Wild Shape into a Megaraptor or Allosaurus. I've been frustrated by this because it's hard to squeeze all that into just 12 levels.

I'd go with Human Magus.

STR:18
DEX:12 (+2 racial bonus)
CON:11
INT:15
WIS:11
CHA:9

Start off with a Chain Shirt for AC 15, resonable at 1st level. Grab toughness at 1st level for 12 HPs including favored class bonus. Boost Con to 12 at level 4 and Int to 16 at level 16. Str for level 8 and 12. Make good use of the shield spell.

Going to advise human magus as well, but put the +2 into Int as well as your 4th level stat bump. An 18/18 str/int for a rolled stat character by level 4 is pretty decent.

Look at a Magus guide and focus on using Shocking Grasp (the magical lineage trait is golden for a magus focusing on shocking grasp). You should be able to put some serious damage on anything that isn't immune to electrical.

Am folks... he said he can´t be a magus.
Forbidden by the GM.

Jesus christ, first he makes everyone roll stats, then he disallows a bunch of class and racial options - especially the best class you could pick for those stats?

I change my advice. Dump the dm. Clearly he is a badwrongfun kind of guy.

Op noted he has to be a half-elf as well.
GM_Beernorg wrote:
Op noted he has to be a half-elf as well.

A lot of GMs allow Half Elves to take Human Feats like Martial Versatility, and my last post considered taking Martial Versatility. Meanwhile, the OP actually weighed a lot Race Options. He might yet be allowed to play a Human or Tengu. It's worth his asking, anyway.

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