I think I have found a way for someone to keep attacking until they miss. You need two levels of siegebreaker fighter, eleven levels of fell rider cavalier, and the shield slam feat. Shield slam gives a free bull rush on hits with a shield, siegebreaker gives a free overrun if you succeed with a bull rush, and fell rider can make a free attack if overrun succeeds. Does this work?
Sorry if this has been asked before I am bad at using search.
EDIT: Also bull-rush and overrun maneuvers require expenditure of your movement which is limited, so even if you keep succeeding on attack rolls and combat maneuver checks you will finally run out of speed even if the GM does not say that you used too many free actions to fit them in single round.
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Remember folks just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should. (Or that your DM will let you.
2 of those sound like you have to actually be moving, even without me reading the full rules of the feats, so even that already sounds like a no. Even if they technically did a GM can put what he calls a reasonable limit on free actions. So either way it does not work.
This is a bit of a derail, but since it involves what the OP is trying to do, I believe it's appropriate, since it's grounds for debunking his shenanigans...
The Overrun Maneuver itself is broken because its mechanics are poorly-written as well as shoddily enforced.
For starters, you can't actually use it as part of a Charge, because A. The movement rules conflict, and B. Overrun cannot substitute an attack. So how can you spend a Standard Action (because you cannot substitute the maneuver for the attack roll, which means the Standard Action to perform it is required) on top of a Full Round Action option? Simple intelligence and rules-parsing tells you that you just can't without engineering some weird gimmicks.
Secondly, you must spend a Move Action in order to use the maneuver, as a Standard Action, and even that's broken. Why? To begin with, the Maneuver itself doesn't say that you can move, so if you spend a Standard Action to perform it, you would actually do it in your own squares that you occupy, meaning you Overrun yourself. Additionally, if we subscribe to the intent that "Once you perform a hostile action, such as performing a Disarm/Sunder/Trip, you end your movement," and Overrun does not provide rules verbiage to supersede such intentions, if you attempted to perform Overrun against an enemy, you would be forced to end your movement on the squares that they occupy to affect them, which means you would be forced back to the last legal space you occupied before the action occurred (which would be adjacent).
This means that every time you want to perform the Overrun Maneuver, you have to spend a Move Action (or some other way to get Movement) in order to perform the Overrun Maneuver, because otherwise you'll be performing the maneuver in squares you occupy (that the enemy doesn't, meaning it doesn't affect them).
So not only do the rules not support the intent, but quite frankly it screws you over so hard you're lucky to do anything useful about it. Not even involving Mounts, which is what this is commonly used for, makes these rules any easier to parse or follow in regards to the intent behind them.
"Overrun
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. You can only overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Overrun feat, or a similar ability, initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. If your overrun attempt fails, you stop in the space directly in front of the opponent, or the nearest open space in front of the creature if there are other creatures occupying that space."
It specifically tells you that it can be used during your move or as part of a charge.
I'm not seeing the issue.
You cannot overrun the guy at the end of the charge, what the overrun is specifically doing in this case is letting A charge past B to get to C, who is on the opposite side of B, and complete the charge on C. But yes, overrun is a contender for dumbest wording of a mechanic.
You cannot overrun the guy at the end of the charge, what the overrun is specifically doing in this case is letting A charge past B to get to C, who is on the opposite side of B, and complete the charge on C. But yes, overrun is a contender for dumbest wording of a mechanic.
Except the Charge rules won't let you do that. You must end your movement in the closest square from which you could attack. Passing through the creature and arriving on the opposite side isn't the closest square from which you could attack from your starting position. Nothing in the Overrun rules text allows you to circumvent the Charge rules.
@ Brain in a Jar: You're presuming that the bolded text allows you to supersede action economy. It doesn't.
See Bull Rush as an example of a non-attacking maneuver able to work as part of a Charge:
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.
That bolded part specifically allows you to perform the Bull Rush Maneuver in place of the standard Attack allowed from the Charge; it is missing from the Overrun entry. Lacking that, and following the intent behind such verbiage in the Bull Rush entry granting permission, Overrun doesn't grant that permission. Ergo, problems arise.
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Re-read it, Darksol, the comma is a bit misleading:
OverrunAs a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. You can only overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Overrun feat, or a similar ability, initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. If your overrun attempt fails, you stop in the space directly in front of the opponent, or the nearest open space in front of the creature if there are other creatures occupying that space.
When you attempt to overrun a target, it can choose to avoid you, allowing you to pass through its square without requiring an attack. If your target does not avoid you, make a combat maneuver check as normal. If your maneuver is successful, you move through the target's space. If your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target's space and the target is knocked prone. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has.
It is:
option A) As a standard action, taken during your moveor
option B) as part of a charge
not
version C) As a standard action, ... as part of a charge
As you say, you can't take a standard action during a charge, but you can make an overrun as part of a charge.
Oh goody
Another "How does Overrun work" debate
Never seen one of those before
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I think I have found a way for someone to keep attacking until they miss. You need two levels of siegebreaker fighter, eleven levels of fell rider cavalier, and the shield slam feat. Shield slam gives a free bull rush on hits with a shield, siegebreaker gives a free overrun if you succeed with a bull rush, and fell rider can make a free attack if overrun succeeds. Does this work?
Sorry if this has been asked before I am bad at using search.
You start with shield slam, right?
Shield slam
You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.
So you use your attack to shield slam.
Breaker Momentum (Ex)At 2nd level, when a siegebreaker successfully bull rushes a foe, he can attempt an overrun combat maneuver check against that foe as a free action.
This ability replaces the feat gained at 2nd level.
Not well defined, but so far it don't give free movement, so you can make the bull rush, but you must abide to: "if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn"
Deadly Rampage (Ex): At 11th level, a mounted fell rider no longer provokes attacks of opportunity when he attempts to overrun a creature. He can make a single melee attack against the creature as a free action if the overrun attempt succeeds. This ability replaces mighty charge.
You make another shield bash with that attack. Now you check if you can make the overrun.
You can take a 5' step? No, you have already moved.You are able to spend an action to move this turn? No, you have already spent it, you can't spend it twice.
Conclusion: you can't spend again a resource you have already spent, so you can't overrun the target more than once.
Re-read it, Darksol, the comma is a bit misleading:
OverrunAs a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. You can only overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Overrun feat, or a similar ability, initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. If your overrun attempt fails, you stop in the space directly in front of the opponent, or the nearest open space in front of the creature if there are other creatures occupying that space.
When you attempt to overrun a target, it can choose to avoid you, allowing you to pass through its square without requiring an attack. If your target does not avoid you, make a combat maneuver check as normal. If your maneuver is successful, you move through the target's space. If your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target's space and the target is knocked prone. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has.
It is:
option A) As a standard action, taken during your move
or
option B) as part of a chargenot
version C) As a standard action, ... as part of a chargeAs you say, you can't take a standard action during a charge, but you can make an overrun as part of a charge.
Except Overrun is a Standard Action to perform, which the text does not supersede it requiring.
Going over it again:
"As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge..."
So, from this, we know Overrun is attempted as a Standard Action, full stop. There's nothing that suggests we can do this for anything less than a Standard Action. Now when can this Standard Action be taken?
There are 2 options that the sentence gives us. They are:
A. During your move(ment)
B. As part of a Charge
This means that during Movement (a Move Action), you can spend a Standard Action to perform the Maneuver. Seems appropriate, except the RAI regarding movement and performing hostile actions such as combat maneuvers (Sunder, Trip, Disarm, even Bull Rush and Grapple) means that once you perform the other action, your Movement immediately ends. Nothing in Overrun provides a green card to supersede this, meaning once you make the attack roll, your movement ends (and you wind up in the closest space).
Then we get to being able to do so as part of a Charge. There are two reasons why this doesn't work. For starters, the action economy. Being able to do it as part of a Charge means you must spend a Standard Action to do so on top of the Full-Round Action needed to charge in the first place. You're not given credence to supersede the action economy required outside of "as part of a Charge." So we perform the Charge action, right? Now we go to perform the Overrun maneuver, right? Except, you can't take a Standard Action to perform it, because you already took a Full-Round Action to perform Charge. You don't get a green card to bypass the rules of the actions in regards to these two, because there is no text to support that outside of rules saying "You can use these together." Sure, if you have some weird cheating rules to go with it. Because let's face it, even if you can combine them by ignoring the laws of Action Economy, you still can't substitute the Overrun Maneuver as part of the Attack you get from Charge. Overrun has no text that says "In place of a melee attack" like other maneuvers do *cough*Bull Rush*cough*. So you would be required to perform them separately, because suggesting you can make both an attack AND a Combat Maneuver check with the same Full-Round Action, most GMs would call cheatng shenanigans, requiring separate actions for each, and is symbolized by the factor you can't normally combine them.
The next argument comes from the factor that you can't even feasibly work it together because of conflicting movement rules. Charge Rules require that you move the most direct way possible, and that you end your movement at the closest square you could attack from in relation to your starting space. So, let's presume we're a Mounted creature (because anyone who isn't Mounted doing this is just a waste of time), and have 10 foot reach. The intent behind performing Charge is that you must end 10 feet away (reach-wise) from the target you wish to Charge towards. However, this means that if you want to perform the Overrun Maneuver, you must occupy some parts of their square, and not the square(s) you must occupy via the Charge rules. Can there be examples of this that can work? Probably. Let's remove Reach from the equation, and there you have it, potential for this option to be debunked, though this is presuming you can even get past the first argument.
I understand the RAI of how these things are supposed to work, but the RAW doesn't support that, like it does for Bull Rush. You can't sit there and give me two separate subjects that follow the same conditions (for example, a truck and a van) and say "They work," especially when the truck is missing an engine (or other core part) needed for the vehicle to actually function.
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Both reading are valid, one work with the rules, one go against the rules. What do you think is the one we should use?
Note that Overrun isn't one of the actions listed in the Actions In Combat table. So we only have the phrase:
"As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge,"
So it can mean:
"As a standard action, taken during your move" + "As a standard action, taken ... as part of a charge,"
or
"As a standard action, taken during your move" + (separate statement) "as part of a charge," without any requirement to take a standard action.
The first version don't work with the rules, the second work with them.
The only logic conclusion is that the second version is what the developers mean.
Another hole in your logic: you assume that you are overrunning someone to attack him. Actually in the real word you try to overrun someone to attack the guy behind him, not to attack him.
Read this:
Moving Through a Square
...
Overrun: During your movement, you can attempt to move through a square occupied by an opponent (see Overrun).
That is your goal, to move trough the first creature square.
Both reading are valid, one work with the rules, one go against the rules. What do you think is the one we should use?
Note that Overrun isn't one of the actions listed in the Actions In Combat table. So we only have the phrase:
"As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge,"So it can mean:
"As a standard action, taken during your move" + "As a standard action, taken ... as part of a charge,"
or
"As a standard action, taken during your move" + (separate statement) "as part of a charge," without any requirement to take a standard action.The first version don't work with the rules, the second work with them.
The only logic conclusion is that the second version is what the developers mean.Another hole in your logic: you assume that you are overrunning someone to attack him. Actually in the real word you try to overrun someone to attack the guy behind him, not to attack him.
Read this:
Moving Through a Square
...
Overrun: During your movement, you can attempt to move through a square occupied by an opponent (see Overrun).That is your goal, to move trough the first creature square.
The second one still doesn't work with the rules.
Even if you do it as part of a charge, for free, you're still having to end your movement prematurely because of how performing actions works. You want to charge a guy behind a guy? Fine. You make your Overrun check, and then you end the movement prematurely to where you're supposed to be, because you have to make the check in order to get where you're supposed to be, which stops your movement.
A lot of GMs are still going to call shenanigans if you try to Overrun someone as a part of Charging a different target without a feat, especially if the expectation is "I can still hit the guy I'm charging."
Oh wait, there is a feat for that? Sounds like you're pulling something that requires a feat to do, my friend. Ergo, your argument goes down the toilet.
Since when does making a check end the move? Failing the check does, per Overrun, but I can't find anything in the rules which indicates that an action which may be explicitly taken during a move stops the movement.
Since when does making a check end the move? Failing the check does, per Overrun, but I can't find anything in the rules which indicates that an action which may be explicitly taken during a move stops the movement.
There is more than a precedent for it.
Take a generic attack as an example. You can move and attack, or you can attack and move. Let's say you want to move, attack, and continue moving (which is essentially what Overrun is). By the rules, you can't do that. You need the Spring Attack feat (or the Ride/Fly-by Attack feat) to do so. Similarly, for Overrun, you would need the Charge Through feat to be able to Charge, Overrun, and then complete said Charge, which is precisely what Diego Rossi is suggesting can be done without said feat. I didn't realize we had so many damn Prone Shooter feats in this game, since apparently you don't need half of them, even though normally, according to the feat description, they're required to do what Diego Rossi is proposing that I can be able to do without said feats.
Let's also take for example, a Strength check to break open a sealed wooden door. If you moved 15 feet, and spent a Standard Action to break down the door, you couldn't then move 15 more feet into the next room, even if your Strength check is successful. Once you stop spending a Move Action to Move (or whatever Movement you have) to perform a separate Action (such as attack, perform a check, etc., which Overrun falls under), your Movement ends. Full stop.
You would be correct in that there is nothing in the rules written that preludes such activities, but the precedent (and the intent) is real, and is as much in force as the Hands V.S. "Hands" argument from the Devs. In short, it's an "unwritten rule," one that, from what I can tell, Overrun doesn't supersede in any way.
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Even if you do it as part of a charge, for free, you're still having to end your movement prematurely because of how performing actions works. You want to charge a guy behind a guy? Fine. You make your Overrun check, and then you end the movement prematurely to where you're supposed to be, because you have to make the check in order to get where you're supposed to be, which stops your movement.
As it is the second or third time you say this, please cite chapter and verse of the rules that say so.
What check stop you from completing your movement?Not your interpretation of the rules, the actual text saying what checks stop your movement.
Your position seem to be that all checks and actions made while moving stop your movement. Prove it.
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The point of overrun is to be able to go through someone's square and not be stopped. If you could only go to the next adjacent square the ability would be useless.
I hope that argument is not being presented as intent.
Even if you do it as part of a charge, for free, you're still having to end your movement prematurely because of how performing actions works. You want to charge a guy behind a guy? Fine. You make your Overrun check, and then you end the movement prematurely to where you're supposed to be, because you have to make the check in order to get where you're supposed to be, which stops your movement.As it is the second or third time you say this, please cite chapter and verse of the rules that say so.
What check stop you from completing your movement?Not your interpretation of the rules, the actual text saying what checks stop your movement.
Your position seem to be that all checks and actions made while moving stop your movement. Prove it.
I already cited my proof in the post above. Look at Spring Attack. Look at Fly-By Attack. Look at Ride-By Attack. Look at Charge Through. These feats have normal text. The most compelling one is Fly-By Attack:
Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move.
This means that if you don't have a feat (or similar ability) allowing otherwise, you cannot take a Standard Action unless it is before or after you move. Overrun is a Standard Action. I'll let you connect the dots from there...
I also took a quick glance through the Combat chapter, and found this important tidbit in regards to spellcasting:
You can cast such a spell either before or after you take a move action.
This means that if you cast a spell at some point during your Move Action for Movement, your Movement ends immediately.
I'm sure there are other examples, but this primarily sums up that once you spend an Action to move, and then perform a different Action, your movement ends immediately. Full stop. There is a precedent. It's been demonstrated on multiple occasions. I think that's more than enough proof of my point.
The point of overrun is to be able to go through someone's square and not be stopped. If you could only go to the next adjacent square the ability would be useless.
I hope that argument is not being presented as intent.
It's not the intent, clearly. It's the RAW answer as to how it works with how the rules are written.
Per RAW, the combat maneuver is useless and is actually broken and can't work. Per RAI, it works, but is quite pointless to bother using, given the headache here.
Discussion of what action regular overrun uses, or if it can be used during charge or not is irrelevant here anyway, because combination of abilities proposed by Gishou has overrun as a free action triggered by a successful bull-rush, itself a free action triggered by a shield slam.
The point of overrun is to be able to go through someone's square and not be stopped. If you could only go to the next adjacent square the ability would be useless.
I hope that argument is not being presented as intent.
It's not the intent, clearly. It's the RAW answer as to how it works with how the rules are written.
Per RAW, the combat maneuver is useless and is actually broken and can't work. Per RAI, it works, but is quite pointless to bother using, given the headache here.
Clearly is not evident.
If thr PDT team were to make a ruling right now what do you think it would be.A. Overrun allows you to keep going until your movement is expended
B. You can move one square beyond the overrun opponent⬅how I am viewing your interpretation, but feel free to correct me if I misunderstood
C. Other ruling
Also those other abilities don't have anything to do with overrun. They have their own reasons as to why they work like they do, that are defined,within thr rules. You can find a reason for stopping overrun because there is no wording. Yes I understand that sometimes the wording of the ruled does support intent, but I see no evidence to support your statement.
The point of overrun is to be able to go through someone's square and not be stopped. If you could only go to the next adjacent square the ability would be useless.
I hope that argument is not being presented as intent.
It's not the intent, clearly. It's the RAW answer as to how it works with how the rules are written.
Per RAW, the combat maneuver is useless and is actually broken and can't work. Per RAI, it works, but is quite pointless to bother using, given the headache here.
It's no more raw than the other argument: the wording is unclear. For unclear wording, we have RAI as a stand in. Which do you think is intended: a mechanic that is useless or a mechanic that works as the flavor description provides?
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I'm pretty certain we're in specific trumps general territory here, Darksol.
Yes, a charge normally requires you to stop in the first square from which you can attack the target. Overrun, however, allows you to decide to perform an overrun combat maneuver at that point instead of the attack. Overrun clearly requires you to move into the target's square, ergo, the specific rule in this case allows you to ignore the general requirement that you stop in the first square from which you could attack.
Yes, normally you can't perform a standard action in combination with a full-round action, such as charge. Except an attack is also, for all intents and purposes, a standard action...which you can perform at the end of a charge. If the overrun rule states overrunning is a standard action taken during your move (rather than at the end of your move; important distinction) or a charge (in place of the attack normally granted at the end of the charge), then you are allowed to make the combat maneuver check.
You're overcomplicating the rule. A rule as written need not say, "this is an exception to the standard rule;" its very existence makes it an exception.
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Even if you do it as part of a charge, for free, you're still having to end your movement prematurely because of how performing actions works. You want to charge a guy behind a guy? Fine. You make your Overrun check, and then you end the movement prematurely to where you're supposed to be, because you have to make the check in order to get where you're supposed to be, which stops your movement.As it is the second or third time you say this, please cite chapter and verse of the rules that say so.
What check stop you from completing your movement?Not your interpretation of the rules, the actual text saying what checks stop your movement.
Your position seem to be that all checks and actions made while moving stop your movement. Prove it.
I already cited my proof in the post above. Look at Spring Attack. Look at Fly-By Attack. Look at Ride-By Attack. Look at Charge Through. These feats have normal text. The most compelling one is Fly-By Attack:
Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move.This means that if you don't have a feat (or similar ability) allowing otherwise, you cannot take a Standard Action unless it is before or after you move. Overrun is a Standard Action. I'll let you connect the dots from there...
I also took a quick glance through the Combat chapter, and found this important tidbit in regards to spellcasting:
You can cast such a spell either before or after you take a move action.This means that if you cast a spell at some point during your Move Action for Movement, your Movement ends immediately.
I'm sure there are other examples, but this primarily sums up that once you spend an Action to move, and then perform a different Action, your movement ends immediately. Full stop. There is a precedent. It's been demonstrated on multiple occasions. I think that's more than...
You have cited several abilities that give permission to make an action in the middle of moving, but you fail to see that overrun give the same benefit. It is in the first row of the description::
Overrun
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
And you continue to say that "overrun is a standard action", while it is not true. It is a standard action when made together with a move action, it is it is a no action that is taken during a charge when done as part of a charge.
You are in the same boat of the guys that were saying "sunder is a standard action, you can't make it when making a full attack".
You are in the same boat of the guys that were saying "sunder is a standard action, you can't make it when making a full attack".
Not really, Sunder is an attack action while overrun is part of other actions (that sometimes requires you to spend an action to use); the boat may be made by the same faulty manufacturer but not the same boat.
Except Overrun is a Standard Action to perform, which the text does not supersede it requiring.
Going over it again:
"As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge..."
So, from this, we know Overrun is attempted as a Standard Action, full stop. There's nothing that suggests we can do this for anything less than a Standard Action. Now when can this Standard Action be taken?
This cant be correct i guess.
You say an Overrun is a Standard Action, no matter what. if you do it while charging or if you do it while moving: you must take the Standard Action when you come in contact to the target of the overrun.so you do:
full Action: Charge
and additional to the FULL Action Charge, you do the Standard Action overrun? sounds kinda impossible to me, except you find a way to gain a Bonus Standard Action.
That's the crux of the argument. You must spend a Standard Action for it. It cannot be substituted for an attack roll. There's no permissive language or text allowing it to conceivably work with a Charge; and there are Combat Maneuvers which do work with a Charge that behave similarly, i.e. Bull Rush.
Overrun is just written poorly; if it was cleaned up and written to actually work, then it wouldn't be so looked down upon. Errata is needed.
Infinite attacks: play a Reincarnation Druid. Make one attack per day for all eternity. Infinite attacks!
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Except Overrun is a Standard Action to perform, which the text does not supersede it requiring.
Going over it again:
"As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge..."
So, from this, we know Overrun is attempted as a Standard Action, full stop. There's nothing that suggests we can do this for anything less than a Standard Action. Now when can this Standard Action be taken?
This cant be correct i guess.
You say an Overrun is a Standard Action, no matter what. if you do it while charging or if you do it while moving: you must take the Standard Action when you come in contact to the target of the overrun.so you do:
full Action: Charge
and additional to the FULL Action Charge, you do the Standard Action overrun? sounds kinda impossible to me, except you find a way to gain a Bonus Standard Action.
Please, be careful when you cite and edit nested posts, you have attributed to me Darksol statement.
The post above is how it should have read.
Except Overrun is a Standard Action to perform, which the text does not supersede it requiring.
Going over it again:
"As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge..."
So, from this, we know Overrun is attempted as a Standard Action, full stop. There's nothing that suggests we can do this for anything less than a Standard Action. Now when can this Standard Action be taken?
This cant be correct i guess.
You say an Overrun is a Standard Action, no matter what. if you do it while charging or if you do it while moving: you must take the Standard Action when you come in contact to the target of the overrun.so you do:
full Action: Charge
and additional to the FULL Action Charge, you do the Standard Action overrun? sounds kinda impossible to me, except you find a way to gain a Bonus Standard Action.That's the crux of the argument. You must spend a Standard Action for it. It cannot be substituted for an attack roll. There's no permissive language or text allowing it to conceivably work with a Charge; and there are Combat Maneuvers which do work with a Charge that behave similarly, i.e. Bull Rush.
Overrun is just written poorly; if it was cleaned up and written to actually work, then it wouldn't be so looked down upon. Errata is needed.
so what you mean is that you overrun the target of your Charge, instead of attacking it?
that cant work aswell.
Charge FORBIDS to move any further than the closest square you can attack your target from.
"You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the Opponent"And it FORBIDS to move after you attacked.
"You must move before your attack, not after."Overrun Forces you to move when you succeed.
"overrun your target, moving through its square"so it cant be correct that you replace your attack from the Charge with the overrun attempt, because...
You're going over what I basically said.
I did take out Diego Rossi's quotation, as it wasn't him that was saying you can't Overrun as part of a Charge, it was me.
And I already said all of this: The movement rules for Charge compared to the movement rules for Overrun do not work together; Charge requires that you end your movement at the closest space from which you could attack the designated foe, Overrun requires that you move through the foe. One silly interpretation would allow you to move through the enemy, then end your movement at the closest space to attack from, but that's also contradicted by Charge requiring to you move the most direct route possible.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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You cannot overrun the guy at the end of the charge, what the overrun is specifically doing in this case is letting A charge past B to get to C, who is on the opposite side of B, and complete the charge on C. But yes, overrun is a contender for dumbest wording of a mechanic.
It isn't saying that, or the Feat Charge Through wouldn't have a purpose.
You cannot overrun the guy at the end of the charge, what the overrun is specifically doing in this case is letting A charge past B to get to C, who is on the opposite side of B, and complete the charge on C. But yes, overrun is a contender for dumbest wording of a mechanic.It isn't saying that, or the Feat Charge Through wouldn't have a purpose.
By RAW it doesn't have purpose, that's how badly written it is.
Except for the bit where GMs can impose a limit on free actions per-turn (typically 3-5).Here's a way to get infinity damage:
Get a Quickdraw, Throwing Shield.
Take the Quickdraw Feat.
Acqurie a Blinkback Belt.Throwing a Throwing Shield is a Free Action.
As soon as the Ranged Attack is resolved, it teleports immediately back to your belt, where
drawing it is a Free Action.
Then throwing it would be a Free Action...
I usually limit it to one free action per type - 1 chance to briefly talk, drop, regrab, avert gaze, fall prone (for those times you can more than once), etc. - with the only real exception being grabbing stuff for ranged attacks.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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It isn't saying that, or the Feat Charge Through wouldn't have a purpose.By RAW it doesn't have purpose, that's how badly written it is.
When you make statements with ambiguous RAW, you really should say "My version of RAW" at the start. Otherwise you sound like there is no way to interpret the rules such that feat has a purpose.
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What if he had Spring Attack? Then he could keep moving after taking his Move Action to move and then attack, assuming he hasn't expended his move allotment yet.You start with shield slam, right?
Shield slam
You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.You make another shield bash with that attack. Now you check if you can make the overrun.
You can take a 5' step? No, you have already moved.
You are able to spend an action to move this turn? No, you have already spent it, you can't spend it twice.Conclusion: you can't spend again a resource you have already spent, so you can't overrun the target more than once.
The requirement is to spend an action to move or to take a 5' step, not to move. Both not allowed by the rules if you have already used your move+standard unless you have a way to get a extra move action.
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Here's a way to get infinity damage:
Get a Quickdraw, Throwing Shield.
Take the Quickdraw Feat.
Acqurie a Blinkback Belt.Throwing a Throwing Shield is a Free Action.
As soon as the Ranged Attack is resolved, it teleports immediately back to your belt, where
drawing it is a Free Action.
Then throwing it would be a Free Action...
Throwing Shield: This shield is designed for throwing and has specially designed straps allowing you to unclasp and throw it as a free action.
As unclasp, in that phrase, mean removing a worn shield, not one you have dangling from your belt, you need a way to don the shield as a free action too.
AFAIK you can have a quickdraw throwing shield, so it don't work.
When you attempt to overrun a target, it can choose to avoid you, allowing you to pass through its square without requiring an attack. If your target does not avoid you, make a combat maneuver check as normal. If your maneuver is successful, you move through the target's space. If your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target's space and the target is knocked prone. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has.
SRD
Movement During a Charge
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
Attacking on a Charge
After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.
Weapons Readied against a Charge: Spears, tridents, and other weapons with the brace feature deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.
Swinging Charge from Ropes or Vines
As a full-round action, you can swing using a rope, vine, or similar aid within reach toward an opponent and make a single melee attack. You must move at least 20 feet (4 squares) and you must start on elevation that is equal or higher than that of your opponent. Your movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
This action is otherwise treated as a charge attack.
Overrun: "As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square."
Note: "During" and "as a part of". Both indicate it happens in the middle and not at the beginning or the end.
Normally, you take a standard before or after your move. Overrun during your move lets you take it in the middle. It is just like ride-by/fly-by in that you continue to move (unless the attack failed, which stops the movement).
A charge is a full round action unless you are limited to only a standard, in which case it is a standard action. As a full round, you move, move, and attack, so you already get an extra action charging.
A charge begins with movement, and ends with a single attack.
Overrunning as part of a charge occurs in the movement part of the charge, and not the attack part of the charge. The only positional requirement for an overrun during a charge is the overrun target in in the line that would normally prevent a charge of the charge target. If the overrun attack fails, the charge is aborted.
In either case, the overrun lets you attack while moving. The overrun as part of a charge lets you attack after the move also. So a 1st level character can make two attacks a round at full BAB if the first is an overrun to achieve a charge.
/cevah
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AFAIK you can't have a quickdraw throwing shield, so it don't work.What does AFAIK mean? You can have a Quickdraw, Throwing Shield. There's nothing wrong with that. Is there? Please quote the rule.
AFAIK: As Far As I Know It.
About the quickdraw, throwing shield:
Quickdraw Shield, Light Wooden or Steel: This light shield is specially crafted with a series of straps to allow a character proficient in shields to ready or stow it on his or her back quickly and easily. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a swift action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw a light or one-handed weapon with one hand and a quickdraw shield with the other in the time it would normally take you to draw one weapon. If you have the Quick Draw feat, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a free action.
Throwing Shield: This shield is designed for throwing and has specially designed straps allowing you to unclasp and throw it as a free action. Tower shields cannot be throwing shields. Neither a shield's enhancement bonus to AC nor its shield spikes apply on your attack or damage rolls.
Both are specific kinds of equipment.
A Quickdraw Throwing shield is in the same same category of a Tower Buckler shield, 2 different pieces of equipment that can't be mixed.
That makes no sense Diego.
The Throwing Shield listed in the Ultimate Equipment table on the PRD lists a +50 cost to it, not a flat 50 gold cost.
Unless you have proof that's a typo, that means it's in addition to whatever the baseline shield is, meaning a Quickdraw Light/Heavy Shield is just as valid a choice as the regular counterparts.
Reviewing the text, it only limits Tower Shields as not valid for throwing shield, which means all other shields would be valid for use, including the Quickdraw Shields. You could, in fact, have a Buckler as well, per RAW, as a Throwing Shield lists its damage dice as 1D6 (which means that a Buckler can, in fact be used to throw, but not bash with), not to mention a Klar, but I'm fairly certain that is not RAI.
Ironically enough, this means that a Heavy or Light shield crafted as such deals 1D6 damage when thrown, full stop, since Spikes won't apply (nor would spells such as Enlarge Person or Gravity Bow/Lead Blades).
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That makes no sense Diego.
The Throwing Shield listed in the Ultimate Equipment table on the PRD lists a +50 cost to it, not a flat 50 gold cost.
Unless you have proof that's a typo, that means it's in addition to whatever the baseline shield is, meaning a Quickdraw Light/Heavy Shield is just as valid a choice as the regular counterparts.
Reviewing the text, it only limits Tower Shields as not valid for throwing shield, which means all other shields would be valid for use, including the Quickdraw Shields. You could, in fact, have a Buckler as well, per RAW, as a Throwing Shield lists its damage dice as 1D6 (which means that a Buckler can, in fact be used to throw, but not bash with), not to mention a Klar, but I'm fairly certain that is not RAI.
Ironically enough, this means that a Heavy or Light shield crafted as such deals 1D6 damage when thrown, full stop, since Spikes won't apply (nor would spells such as Enlarge Person or Gravity Bow/Lead Blades).
You are right, I hadn't noticed that it is +50 and not a flat cost.
It is stupid but it allow as many attacks as the free actions that the GM allow. AFAIK it don't even suffer any penalty for making multiple attacks in a round.Someone at Paizo has read too many Captain America comics.
The blinkback belt don't work with bucklers, they aren't melee weapons:
Up to two one-handed melee weapons or up to four light melee weapons can be hung from the belt in straps or sheaths.
but shield are, so it will work with them.
That makes no sense Diego.
The Throwing Shield listed in the Ultimate Equipment table on the PRD lists a +50 cost to it, not a flat 50 gold cost.
Unless you have proof that's a typo, that means it's in addition to whatever the baseline shield is, meaning a Quickdraw Light/Heavy Shield is just as valid a choice as the regular counterparts.
Reviewing the text, it only limits Tower Shields as not valid for throwing shield, which means all other shields would be valid for use, including the Quickdraw Shields. You could, in fact, have a Buckler as well, per RAW, as a Throwing Shield lists its damage dice as 1D6 (which means that a Buckler can, in fact be used to throw, but not bash with), not to mention a Klar, but I'm fairly certain that is not RAI.
Ironically enough, this means that a Heavy or Light shield crafted as such deals 1D6 damage when thrown, full stop, since Spikes won't apply (nor would spells such as Enlarge Person or Gravity Bow/Lead Blades).
You are right, I hadn't noticed that it is +50 and not a flat cost.
It is stupid but it allow as many attacks as the free actions that the GM allow. AFAIK it don't even suffer any penalty for making multiple attacks in a round.Someone at Paizo has read too many Captain America comics.
The blinkback belt don't work with bucklers, they aren't melee weapons:
Up to two one-handed melee weapons or up to four light melee weapons can be hung from the belt in straps or sheaths.but shield are, so it will work with them.
Per RAW, yes, but Scott is just abusing a simple typo (or perhaps a miswording). This is basically the intent of it:
This shield is designed for throwing and has specially designed straps allowing you to unclaspand throwit as a free action.
It's obviously unintended to provide Free Action Attacks, and any sane GM (PFS or otherwise) would tell you that.
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Per RAW, yes, but Scott is just abusing a simple typo (or perhaps a miswording). This is basically the intent of it:This shield is designed for throwing and has specially designed straps allowing you to unclaspIt's obviously unintended to provide Free Action Attacks, and any sane GM (PFS or otherwise) would tell you that.and throwit as a free action.
Probable, or the writer wanted to give the character 1 free attack at the expense of losing the shield bonus (making it returning wouldn't help much, it return at the end of your turn, so still a single attack). A large number of shields would weight too much for most characters, so that too would limit this trick usefulness. It is the blinkback belt that make the difference.
It would surely benefit from a rewording to remove the possibility of infinite attacks.
A player trying this trick at my table would receive 1 warning, then a polite request to find another GM. If I were in a group where the GM allow this I would leave.