Gaining a higher bonus that does not itself bypass DR (like greater magic weapon or transferral from a ranged weapon to its ammunition) does not remove the ability to bypass DR via the original bonus.
I got the GMW FAQ that I wanted!
Versatile Weapon just got a lot more valuable. 50 projectiles at a casting, and 1 min/level. Yeah for level 4 Bards or level 7 Rangers with 14 Wisdom! The spell also competes with a lot of great level 3 Wiz/Sorc spells too.
Now for action economy, the caster has to carry a quiver, then do the knowledge check to ID the type of DR, and cast the spell.
Or a bunch of different types of missiles in various quivers are needed.
Then the archers pull a pile from the grab bag (after delaying to go after the caster and knowledge expert [which may not be the same person, costing another round and some wasted arrows in round 1]).
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The thing is that this ruling is presented as if the game had always been this way. So how was archery supposed to be effective before Ultimate Combat in high level play? As before then clustered shots did not exist. Were you just supposed to spend all your gold on aligned ammunition?Yup, Clustered Shots just went from Green to Blue in a lot of Archer-based guides with this FAQ.
**EDIT**
Ironically enough, the Empty Quiver Style feat chain just got a lot more valuable, too...
Pretty much.
This is a FAQ that should've been done back in the days when Pathfinder only had the Core Rulebook and Beastiary, but never was (for unknown reasons). And considering the motto back then was "Martials cannot have nice things," it's no surprise the FAQ reached the outcome that it did. Because it's an answer that comes from a book that basically said "Screw Martials, Thug Wizards 4 Lyfe."
It wasn't done because no one asked the question. Go back and read this thread and you'll see most people in it scoffed at the idea of my FAQ. Most thought the whole idea of it was silly or ridiculous or a waste of time. No one ever questioned it because everyone just assumed it was true. Hell, I did the same. I don't remember why I did it, but I know I started looking into bows and ammo for some reason back then and discovered that the actual wording of the rules did not fit the assumed rules everyone played with.
Hence the FAQ. I thought the rules error was probably a holdover issue from the change to Pathfinder, and even brought that point up. But the ruling was upheld, and that's that. I'm fine with either ruling. If they had rules arrows bypass DR, great, if they ruled as they did, that's great too.
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I've seen quiet a few complaints about archers in the past, so I am not surprised, and you can provide all the data you want, but they will come back "I cant explain it, but it feels overpowered", and that is all they care about. That is likely the source of this ruling which I will be ignoring.The thing is that this ruling is presented as if the game had always been this way. So how was archery supposed to be effective before Ultimate Combat in high level play? As before then clustered shots did not exist. Were you just supposed to spend all your gold on aligned ammunition?Yup, Clustered Shots just went from Green to Blue in a lot of Archer-based guides with this FAQ.
**EDIT**
Ironically enough, the Empty Quiver Style feat chain just got a lot more valuable, too...
Pretty much.
This is a FAQ that should've been done back in the days when Pathfinder only had the Core Rulebook and Beastiary, but never was (for unknown reasons). And considering the motto back then was "Martials cannot have nice things," it's no surprise the FAQ reached the outcome that it did. Because it's an answer that comes from a book that basically said "Screw Martials, Thug Wizards 4 Lyfe."
I can understand why they'd say that, but logically speaking, an archer is only overpowered if they're either A. Left alone, or B. Take investments (i.e. feats) that help reduce their "dead zones," so to speak, and several archers don't get access to some of the best investments that shore that up (Point Blank Master being the biggest culprit, since it's limited to Fighters, Rangers, Slayers, and Eldritch Archer/Myrmidarch Magi).
The former requires a very lenient and unimposing GM. The latter requires players to have solid system mastery. And quite frankly, with one or both problems occurring, it wouldn't matter if the player was an archer, caster, or even melee character: the character in question will always be "overpowered." Which means the issue of being "overpowered" doesn't really mean anything.
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The thing is that this ruling is presented as if the game had always been this way. So how was archery supposed to be effective before Ultimate Combat in high level play? As before then clustered shots did not exist. Were you just supposed to spend all your gold on aligned ammunition?Yup, Clustered Shots just went from Green to Blue in a lot of Archer-based guides with this FAQ.
**EDIT**
Ironically enough, the Empty Quiver Style feat chain just got a lot more valuable, too...
Pretty much.
This is a FAQ that should've been done back in the days when Pathfinder only had the Core Rulebook and Beastiary, but never was (for unknown reasons). And considering the motto back then was "Martials cannot have nice things," it's no surprise the FAQ reached the outcome that it did. Because it's an answer that comes from a book that basically said "Screw Martials, Thug Wizards 4 Lyfe."
It wasn't done because no one asked the question. Go back and read this thread and you'll see most people in it scoffed at the idea of my FAQ. Most thought the whole idea of it was silly or ridiculous or a waste of time. No one ever questioned it because everyone just assumed it was true. Hell, I did the same. I don't remember why I did it, but I know I started looking into bows and ammo for some reason back then and discovered that the actual wording of the rules did not fit the assumed rules everyone played with.
Hence the FAQ. I thought the rules error was probably a holdover issue from the change to Pathfinder, and even brought that point up. But the ruling was upheld, and that's that. I'm fine with either ruling. If they had rules arrows bypass DR, great, if they ruled as they did, that's great too.
I know the score, and the assumptions were made simply for continuity and consistency between other related rules (i.e. melee weapons). It's because of these assumptions that, like you said, nobody asked the question.
Of course, my point was that even if the question was asked, the answer would've been the same, simply because the rule in question is in a book that basically said "Martials cannot have nice things."
What about mythic DR? Special materials are cheap and easy, but overcoming mythic dr with a bow is going to get really expensive.
And how does bane work? Is the +2 from bane considered to be on the bow or applied to the arrows?
Bane would be on the bow.
Also, I believe you mean Epic DR, since last I checked, Mythic DR only requires that you have Mythic Tiers to beat.
What about mythic DR? Special materials are cheap and easy, but overcoming mythic dr with a bow is going to get really expensive.
And how does bane work? Is the +2 from bane considered to be on the bow or applied to the arrows?
The table for ranged weapon properties in the magic items chapter gives Bane a superscript, and if you check the superscript it says, "3 Projectile weapons with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition." So you have nothing to worry about with Bane. If you shoot +1 arrows of a +2 bane how, you will be able to bypass cold iron and silver and the actual name property with increase the enhancement of the arrows to +3. Good news for Inquisitors, and before you ask, the Band Baldric won't help as it can only be used with light or one-handed melee weapons.
That subscript 3 was something interesting. I remember threads asking about that subscript. It's telling that it exists now that we have this FAQ.
It factored heavily into my arguments on the first page of the thread. I didn't pay any attention to it at first, but once I realized it was there, I realized that this was how the rules must be work, because, otherwise, that superscript is completely superfluous.
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The wording of the question seems flawed though:
When a ranged weapon shares its enhancement bonus with its ammunition, does this count as “true” enhancement bonus or more like a temporary bonus like greater magic weapon?
Greater magic weapon doesn't bypass DR other than magic because it explicitly says it doesn't, not because it is a temporary bonus. I cannot find any general rule that says temporary bonuses don't count for this purpose.
For example, what happens if a magus uses his arcane pool to increase the enhancement bonus of his weapon from +1 to +3. I believe it should still bypass cold iron/silver DR, but someone might broaden the scope of this question by trying to apply it to all temporary bonuses.
Funny, we have come full circle back to 3.0 when magical ammo was more important than magical bows.
In 3.5, magical ammo was less important since enhancement bonus become the same as bows if higher (and was granted everything one bow). Also you added all bonus abilities on bow and arrow. A flaming bow with frost arrows dealt both.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Why is it that this is felt to hurt significantly in core?
Doesn't core have cold iron arrows? Silver arrows? Adamantime arrows?
Before high level, most archers buy individual material arrows. At higher level it was merely convenient to "I have a +3 bow so that means I don't need cheap gold iron or silver arrows right?" You certainly have the cash/gp to buy them now.
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Why is it that this is felt to hurt significantly in core?
Doesn't core have cold iron arrows? Silver arrows? Adamantime arrows?Before high level, most archers buy individual material arrows. At higher level it was merely convenient to "I have a +3 bow so that means I don't need cheap gold iron or silver arrows right?" You certainly have the cash/gp to buy them now.
For PFS you can't buy individual arrows you have to buy in lots of 20. Non core can get around that by buying 1 durable arrow Core archers need to save up a fair bit for a full pack of adamantine arrows.
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Why is it that this is felt to hurt significantly in core?
Doesn't core have cold iron arrows? Silver arrows? Adamantime arrows?Before high level, most archers buy individual material arrows. At higher level it was merely convenient to "I have a +3 bow so that means I don't need cheap gold iron or silver arrows right?" You certainly have the cash/gp to buy them now.
Cold Iron and Silver Arrows are only double the price of regular arrows, if I remember, so they're practically dirt cheap, and like you said, it's not a big problem to get them (besides having proper carrying capacity, of course).
Adamantine Arrows are 60 gold a pop, compared to the 2 or 3 gold that Cold Iron and Silver Arrows are. Multiplied by 20, that's 1,200 gold, and is worth more than any Potion in the game. Since Constructs are fairly common around 6th level and beyond, and have DR/Adamantine, having to spend 1,200 gold just to bypass DR/Adamantine is a significant expenditure just to deal with a specific enemy.
Not to mention the amount of attacks that an Archer gets compared to a melee guy, means he's going to burn through those arrows in 3, maybe 4 rounds tops. Which means the Arrows are only good for one encounter.
That's not including things like +4 Bane/Holy/Unholy Arrows to bypass DR/Epic (which Bows cannot do anymore), and are infinitely more expensive than most every weapon you come across. And it's only good for one attack, out of the 5 or so attacks you'd get when you have access to those kinds of items.
OR, you just take a single feat, and make the DR application nowhere near as crippling as it normally is. Simple as that. I don't know about you, but compared to dealing with all of that hauling of so many different kinds of arrows and murdering your WBL to deal with something as insignificant as DR (compared to a melee guy who doesn't have to do any of that), taking a feat to make the effectiveness of your attacks infinitely better versus DR is not only much simpler, but also much more practical both as an opportunity cost and as an investment. After all, what if you're facing enemies whose DR is Slashing/Piercing/Bludgeoning?
Of course, the reason why people say it's a significant detriment to Core-only is because, like Spellcasters specializing in Blasting, the options to reduce the weaknesses and improve the strengths of that type of specialization don't exist in the Core Rulebook.
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Why is it that this is felt to hurt significantly in core?
Doesn't core have cold iron arrows? Silver arrows? Adamantime arrows?Before high level, most archers buy individual material arrows. At higher level it was merely convenient to "I have a +3 bow so that means I don't need cheap gold iron or silver arrows right?" You certainly have the cash/gp to buy them now.
Uh, look at this thread. All the mitigating factors don't apply in Core :-).
Before the ruling, the high level archer just shot arrows from his +5 bow, not caring what DR the baddy had.
After the ruling, the high level archer has to learn what DR the bad guy has, have bought the correct arrows, and then have enough of the correct arrows. The 60 arrows in an efficient quiver are going to go very quickly, ESPECIALLY when they have to be split up into different types.
And if there are alignment components to the DR they are likely going to have to spend somebodys action to get the arrows aligned.
Does this make the archer useless? Of course not.
Does this significantly impact the effectiveness of the archer? Of course it does.
Thank God. Archers are OP as is anyways. Not that it matters much with Clustered Shots.
The table for ranged weapon properties in the magic items chapter gives Bane a superscript, and if you check the superscript it says, "3 Projectile weapons with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition." So you have nothing to worry about with Bane. If you shoot +1 arrows of a +2 bane how, you will be able to bypass cold iron and silver and the actual name property with increase the enhancement of the arrows to +3. Good news for Inquisitors, and before you ask, the Band Baldric won't help as it can only be used with light or one-handed melee weapons.What about mythic DR? Special materials are cheap and easy, but overcoming mythic dr with a bow is going to get really expensive.
And how does bane work? Is the +2 from bane considered to be on the bow or applied to the arrows?
But they're not actually +1 arrows, right? Just magic for damage purposes? So Bane should make them just +2.
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But they're not actually +1 arrows, right? Just magic for damage purposes? So Bane should make them just +2.The table for ranged weapon properties in the magic items chapter gives Bane a superscript, and if you check the superscript it says, "3 Projectile weapons with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition." So you have nothing to worry about with Bane. If you shoot +1 arrows of a +2 bane how, you will be able to bypass cold iron and silver and the actual name property with increase the enhancement of the arrows to +3. Good news for Inquisitors, and before you ask, the Band Baldric won't help as it can only be used with light or one-handed melee weapons.What about mythic DR? Special materials are cheap and easy, but overcoming mythic dr with a bow is going to get really expensive.
And how does bane work? Is the +2 from bane considered to be on the bow or applied to the arrows?
You know that you can buy magic arrows, right?
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You know that you can buy magic arrows, right?But they're not actually +1 arrows, right? Just magic for damage purposes? So Bane should make them just +2.The table for ranged weapon properties in the magic items chapter gives Bane a superscript, and if you check the superscript it says, "3 Projectile weapons with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition." So you have nothing to worry about with Bane. If you shoot +1 arrows of a +2 bane how, you will be able to bypass cold iron and silver and the actual name property with increase the enhancement of the arrows to +3. Good news for Inquisitors, and before you ask, the Band Baldric won't help as it can only be used with light or one-handed melee weapons.What about mythic DR? Special materials are cheap and easy, but overcoming mythic dr with a bow is going to get really expensive.
And how does bane work? Is the +2 from bane considered to be on the bow or applied to the arrows?
For the same price as buying Magic Bows.
Which makes Magic Arrows the most expensive consumable in the game, since you can have an effective +10 Arrow be worth 1/4 of a Level 20 character's WBL.
You know that you can buy magic arrows, right?But they're not actually +1 arrows, right? Just magic for damage purposes? So Bane should make them just +2.The table for ranged weapon properties in the magic items chapter gives Bane a superscript, and if you check the superscript it says, "3 Projectile weapons with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition." So you have nothing to worry about with Bane. If you shoot +1 arrows of a +2 bane how, you will be able to bypass cold iron and silver and the actual name property with increase the enhancement of the arrows to +3. Good news for Inquisitors, and before you ask, the Band Baldric won't help as it can only be used with light or one-handed melee weapons.What about mythic DR? Special materials are cheap and easy, but overcoming mythic dr with a bow is going to get really expensive.
And how does bane work? Is the +2 from bane considered to be on the bow or applied to the arrows?
For the same price as buying Magic Bows.
Which makes Magic Arrows the most expensive consumable in the game, since you can have an effective +10 Arrow be worth 1/4 of a Level 20 character's WBL.
Or you could buy durable arrows, which are reuseable.
Can durable arrows be adamantine/mithral/cold iron? Because that seems like it fixes most of the issues.
It appears to be 61g per durable adamantine arrow. Not a horrible price at higher levels.
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For example, what happens if a magus uses his arcane pool to increase the enhancement bonus of his weapon from +1 to +3. I believe it should still bypass cold iron/silver DR, but someone might broaden the scope of this question by trying to apply it to all temporary bonuses.
Kinda wondering on this myself now does this affect any other methods of only temp. boosting an item.
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Kinda wondering on this myself now does this affect any other methods of only temp. boosting an item.
For example, what happens if a magus uses his arcane pool to increase the enhancement bonus of his weapon from +1 to +3. I believe it should still bypass cold iron/silver DR, but someone might broaden the scope of this question by trying to apply it to all temporary bonuses.
The Magus has to use his Arcane Pool to boost a weapon. Same goes for Paladins with Divine Bond and other such effects.
Ammunition isn't a weapon.
Therefore, the bonus applies to the weapon, which gets transferred to the ammunition.
So, the temporary boosts won't work because they don't directly enhance the ammunition.
Kinda wondering on this myself now does this affect any other methods of only temp. boosting an item.
For example, what happens if a magus uses his arcane pool to increase the enhancement bonus of his weapon from +1 to +3. I believe it should still bypass cold iron/silver DR, but someone might broaden the scope of this question by trying to apply it to all temporary bonuses.
The Magus has to use his Arcane Pool to boost a weapon. Same goes for Paladins with Divine Bond and other such effects.
Ammunition isn't a weapon.
Therefore, the bonus applies to the weapon, which gets transferred to the ammunition.
So, the temporary boosts won't work because they don't directly enhance the ammunition.
I believe they are asking if temp enhancement boosts let normal weapons bypass DR. can a magus with a +1 adds +2 can he now break cold iron?
I believe they are asking if temp enhancement boosts let normal weapons bypass DR. can a magus with a +1 adds +2 can he now break cold iron?Kinda wondering on this myself now does this affect any other methods of only temp. boosting an item.
For example, what happens if a magus uses his arcane pool to increase the enhancement bonus of his weapon from +1 to +3. I believe it should still bypass cold iron/silver DR, but someone might broaden the scope of this question by trying to apply it to all temporary bonuses.
The Magus has to use his Arcane Pool to boost a weapon. Same goes for Paladins with Divine Bond and other such effects.
Ammunition isn't a weapon.
Therefore, the bonus applies to the weapon, which gets transferred to the ammunition.
So, the temporary boosts won't work because they don't directly enhance the ammunition.
Well yeah. After all is said and done, it is a +3 weapon. It doesn't have language like Greater Magic Weapon, which only provides the bonuses and none of the other benefits associated. And this is assuming that you aren't using a Ranged Weapon, which has specific limitations (spelled out by the FAQ).
Similarly, if I was a Barbarian with a +1 Furious weapon, I'd be able to bypass Cold Iron and Silver DR while Raging, because my weapon is now +3, which normally bypasses those DRs.
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The problem is the wording of the question in the FAQ implies that the bonus being temporary has something to do with the reason it might not work and the answer does nothing to explicitly dispel that notion.
When a ranged weapon shares its enhancement bonus with its ammunition, does this count as “true” enhancement bonus or more like a temporary bonus like greater magic weapon?
Exactly what determines when and if the bonus over comes DR?
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If I remember right, the bonus progression being equal to special materials for DR purposes (depending on how high the bonus is) was Erratted in after the initial printing of the Core Rulebook. I could be wrong.
The question of the thread, and the eventual FAQ that resulted, is the difference between ranged weapons and their ammo. If you want to bypass DR for special materials like Cold Iron or Silver, you would need Magical Ammo or Ammo of that material, the weapon that fires the ammo does not infer the DR qualities for Special Materials to the ammo. That is what the FAQ clarifies.
Here is the Core Rulebook entry about overcoming DR
Overcoming DR: Damage reduction may be overcome
by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with
a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the
enhancement
from masterwork quality), certain types of
weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons
imbued with an alignment.
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an
enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic
weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with
an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon
(in addition to any alignment it may already have).
Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater
can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless
of their actual material or alignment. The following
table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to
overcome some common types of damage reduction.
Weapon Enhancement
DR Type Bonus Equivalent
Cold iron/silver +3
Adamantine* +4
Alignment-based +5
* Note that this does not give the ability to ignore hardness,
like an actual adamantine weapon does
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Magic Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: When a ranged weapon shares its enhancement bonus with its ammunition, does this count as “true” enhancement bonus or more like a temporary bonus like greater magic weapon? In other words, does the shared enhancement bonus allow the arrow to bypass damage reduction as if it was cold iron, silver, adamantine, and aligned?
No, other than the ways indicated in the Core Rulebook (if the ranged weapon is at least +1, they count as magic, and if the ranged weapon is aligned they count as that alignment as well) the enhancement bonus granted to ammunition from the ranged weapon doesn’t help them overcome the other types of damage reduction. Archers and other such characters can buy various sorts of ammunition or ammunition with a high enhancement bonus to overcome the various types of damage reduction.
What!?
*edited down from a few hundred words to be less inflamatory.
Magic Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: When a ranged weapon shares its enhancement bonus with its ammunition, does this count as “true” enhancement bonus or more like a temporary bonus like greater magic weapon? In other words, does the shared enhancement bonus allow the arrow to bypass damage reduction as if it was cold iron, silver, adamantine, and aligned?
No, other than the ways indicated in the Core Rulebook (if the ranged weapon is at least +1, they count as magic, and if the ranged weapon is aligned they count as that alignment as well) the enhancement bonus granted to ammunition from the ranged weapon doesn’t help them overcome the other types of damage reduction. Archers and other such characters can buy various sorts of ammunition or ammunition with a high enhancement bonus to overcome the various types of damage reduction.
What!?
*edited down from a few hundred words to be less inflamatory.
Well, it was how the rule always was, we just got it wrong because it was a specific case over general. No need for such a lack of inflammatory words :Oc
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Well, it was how the rule always was, we just got it wrong because it was a specific case over general. No need for such a lack of inflammatory words :OcMagic Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: When a ranged weapon shares its enhancement bonus with its ammunition, does this count as “true” enhancement bonus or more like a temporary bonus like greater magic weapon? In other words, does the shared enhancement bonus allow the arrow to bypass damage reduction as if it was cold iron, silver, adamantine, and aligned?
No, other than the ways indicated in the Core Rulebook (if the ranged weapon is at least +1, they count as magic, and if the ranged weapon is aligned they count as that alignment as well) the enhancement bonus granted to ammunition from the ranged weapon doesn’t help them overcome the other types of damage reduction. Archers and other such characters can buy various sorts of ammunition or ammunition with a high enhancement bonus to overcome the various types of damage reduction.
What!?
*edited down from a few hundred words to be less inflamatory.
That may be how you always interpreted it, but that doesn't mean that's what the rule always was.
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Well, it was how the rule always was, we just got it wrong because it was a specific case over general. No need for such a lack of inflammatory words :OcMagic Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: When a ranged weapon shares its enhancement bonus with its ammunition, does this count as “true” enhancement bonus or more like a temporary bonus like greater magic weapon? In other words, does the shared enhancement bonus allow the arrow to bypass damage reduction as if it was cold iron, silver, adamantine, and aligned?
No, other than the ways indicated in the Core Rulebook (if the ranged weapon is at least +1, they count as magic, and if the ranged weapon is aligned they count as that alignment as well) the enhancement bonus granted to ammunition from the ranged weapon doesn’t help them overcome the other types of damage reduction. Archers and other such characters can buy various sorts of ammunition or ammunition with a high enhancement bonus to overcome the various types of damage reduction.
What!?
*edited down from a few hundred words to be less inflamatory.
There is no limitation in the original RAW. So there is no specific over general. Here's my reasoning.
"Damage Reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment"
Please notice that a magic weapon is any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus. It is not counted as only magic for piercing DR, all magic weapons get the entire table for DR piercing based on their bonus.
So when the rules say this,
"Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction,"
it refers back to the definition for magic weapon as given in the previous paragraph. Especially since the arrow explicitly gains the full enhancement bonus of its weapon if it is higher than the ammunition's. And thus gains the entire table as all magic weapons do... unless the text also says they only pierce DR/magic. Like greater magic weapon.
Also note that Greater Magic Weapon has to specifically say that its increased enhancement bonus over Magic Weapon does not allow it to pierce additional DRs. As the definition of a magic weapon already allows it to pierce additional DR and so it must be explicitly taken away.
So, there is little to indicate that an arrow is treated differently than a sword. Other than a magic sword is always a magic sword... while a non-magic arrow can be a magic arrow... or at least counted as one. Maybe they intended to limit ammunition, but the text does not really bear it out.
To re-state for clarity, if a magic weapon is 'any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus' and an arrow is counted as a magic weapon with a +1 or higher bonus... either melee weapons gain the same limitation of only piercing DR/magic or arrows by RAW(before the FAQ) pierce additional DR based on their enhancement bonus.
I do not say all this to negate the FAQ, as that can not be done. It supersedes the original text. I say this to counter the idea that this is not a new rule.
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"Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction"
A +5 bow is a weapon.
A +1 sword under a greater magic weapon spell has an enhancement bonus of +3 or better. Yet it doesn't overcome DR.
This FAQ isn't a new rule. It's just clarifying that a magic projectile weapon using non magical ammunition is granting the ammunition the effects of a greater magic weapon spell.
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You know that you can buy magic arrows, right?But they're not actually +1 arrows, right? Just magic for damage purposes? So Bane should make them just +2.Is the +2 from bane considered to be on the bow or applied to the arrows?The table for ranged weapon properties in the magic items chapter gives Bane a superscript, and if you check the superscript it says, "3 Projectile weapons with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition." So you have nothing to worry about with Bane. If you shoot +1 arrows of a +2 bane how, you will be able to bypass cold iron and silver and the actual name property with increase the enhancement of the arrows to +3.
Buying +1 arrows for a Bane bow to penetrate DR is a lot more expensive than buying silver or cold iron arrows, and doesn't rely on you having the right type of Bane.
Wow. Those poor, poor archers.
;P
It's like some archer fan saw this coming, and so invented Clustered Shots in advance.
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"Damage Reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment"Please notice that a magic weapon is any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus. It is not counted as only magic for piercing DR, all magic weapons get the entire table for DR piercing based on their bonus.
I think it is much simpler to read "magic weapons" in that sentence as referring to weapons capable of bypassing DR/magic. That is separate from the additional rules regarding a high enhancement bonus.
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"Damage Reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment"Please notice that a magic weapon is any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus. It is not counted as only magic for piercing DR, all magic weapons get the entire table for DR piercing based on their bonus.
I think it is much simpler to read "magic weapons" in that sentence as referring to weapons capable of bypassing DR/magic. That is separate from the additional rules regarding a high enhancement bonus.
What grants access to the table?
This line,"Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction."
This is the only qualifier.
The only qualifier for a magic weapon is for it to have an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher.
Is an arrow fired by a +5 bow both a magic weapon and have an enhancement bonus of +5?
Yup.
"This spell functions like magic weapon(which never says the item is a magic weapon, by the way. It only gives it a +1 enhancement), except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). [/b]This bonus does not allow a weapon to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.[b]"
This is how one would say that a weapon with an enhancement bonus only bypasses magic no matter how high the bonus.
"Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."
Now, what does this say? How does one find out the benefits of a magic weapon in regards to overcoming DR? By examining its enhancement bonus and referencing the table. This text does not limit the normal benefits of a magic weapon as GMW does.
Of course I can see reading this as meaning "treat as a +1 magic weapon for overcoming DR." But it is not more simple as you have know to treat the arrow as different from any other magic weapon and the text does not point to this idea well.
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Wow. Those poor, poor archers.
;P
** spoiler omitted **
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"Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."Now, what does this say? How does one find out the benefits of a magic weapon in regards to overcoming DR? By examining its enhancement bonus and referencing the table.
I understand why that might be confusing. But it does not say "Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon is treated as having an enhancement bonus equal to that of the weapon." It only says to treat the ammunition as magic. What does a magic weapon do? It bypasses DR/magic.
Honesyly, Lorewalker, if you really want to argue this l, please go back and read through every post I made in this thread and you'll see I've already addressed your points. If have anything else new to add, I would be happy to discuss it further, even if the point is a little moot.
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Lore, I quoted the whole section above. It never says "ranged weapons" to quantify the bonus, just "Weapons." It only mentions Ranged Weapons in relation to Alignment and Magic, not any of the special materials.
Now, a discussion locally here has players and VO's agree that weapon properties still get to the arrow, like Seeking, Fire, and the like, but the DR properties are not included from the bow, that needs to be on the Arrow itself, with the exception of Alignment and Magic, as mentioned.
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I understand why that might be confusing. But it does not say "Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon is treated as having an enhancement bonus equal to that of the weapon." It only says to treat the ammunition as magic. What does a magic weapon do? It bypasses DR/magic."Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."Now, what does this say? How does one find out the benefits of a magic weapon in regards to overcoming DR? By examining its enhancement bonus and referencing the table.
No, that part doesn't. But then again... there is a rule that says that specifically. That the arrow has the enhancement bonus of the bow. And the only qualifier for a magic weapon to pierce additional DR is having a +3 or higher bonus. Since the arrow does explicitly gain the enhancement bonus then it also would pierce DR.
Also, a magic weapon by definition pierces DR based on its enhancement bonus, as per the Overcoming Damage Reduction section. It just always overcomes DR/magic as well. It is not a limited definition.