Questioning the Value of Unlimited Uses


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Shadow Lodge

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thejeff wrote:

To some extent it still does even with a few encounters per day, it's just that the threshold where an ability becomes effectively unlimited shifts. You're at the point where a couple uses of judgement a day are effectively unlimited, but I'd expect making the caster's highest level spell unlimited use would still change things.

Maybe even if it was just one fight.

Yes, I'm not saying that all abilities should be unlimited, but that many abilities do become effectively unlimited given the actual rate of encounters in a typical adventure. And that's important to know when balancing abilities.

High level spells may run out, but spells 2-3 levels below your highest slot tend not to, so if a caster can do more with their low level spells than other classes can do with their unlimited abilities, it's not balanced.

Long-duration effects like wild shape or mage armour tend to become effectively always on around mid levels. Short-duration effects like shield or the inquisitor's judgment similarly become effectively unlimited once you get more uses than encounters, though unlike long-duration effects you either need to see the encounter coming or else spend an action. Rounds-per-day abilities, as previously pointed out, scale more generously than rounds of combat per day and so they tend to also become effectively unlimited unless there's a way to chew up multiple rounds at a time (like if you're a barbarian sharing rage with your mount).

So when you're balancing a high-level barbarian against other high-level martials, you should assume that the barbarian is raging - and if you're comparing a high-level druid to a high-level barbarian, you should assume that the druid is using wild shape and probably one or two long-duration low-level spells, like Barkskin.

Now, not all games are going to hit "effectively unlimited" at the same point. For example, Judgment is less useful in a game with 4-5 small encounters per day than a game with 1-2 big ones. But we also make assumptions about, for example, roughly how many of a paladin's foes will be evil or fiends/dragons/undead when assessing the usefulness of their Smite, even if that means that the class is extra useful in outlier campaigns like Wrath of the Righteous.


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Weirdo wrote:
thejeff wrote:

To some extent it still does even with a few encounters per day, it's just that the threshold where an ability becomes effectively unlimited shifts. You're at the point where a couple uses of judgement a day are effectively unlimited, but I'd expect making the caster's highest level spell unlimited use would still change things.

Maybe even if it was just one fight.

Yes, I'm not saying that all abilities should be unlimited, but that many abilities do become effectively unlimited given the actual rate of encounters in a typical adventure. And that's important to know when balancing abilities.

High level spells may run out, but spells 2-3 levels below your highest slot tend not to, so if a caster can do more with their low level spells than other classes can do with their unlimited abilities, it's not balanced.

I wonder how much this is the root of the problem. If a martial's unlimited baseline was roughly equal to what a caster could do without touching his top 2 levels of spells, would we be a lot closer to balanced? Or even 1 level lower in combat, with utility stuff behind that?

But I very much agree with most of the rest. Most of the non-casting "limited" stuff really isn't. You're using it if the situation matters at all.

The only real place limits come in is actual "novaing". Casters dumping most of their high level spells in an encounter can punch well above their level, as can things like Fast Bombing Alchemists. Doing that does tend to leave you with little left, so there is some balance there.


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Per encounter is an awesome game term that doesn't translate well into out-of-combat mechanics. It's really easy to keep track of per encounter powers, per rest, and to a similar extent, per day powers, but the once every 1d4 rounds or once every 10 minute or hour powers are annoying. Unlimited uses are easy to keep track of as well. It's a much more casual gameplay style to use unlimited.

Unlimited has a possibly better long-term usage, but caster powers scale exponentially beyond whatever limits limited uses apply, and rarely if ever do we see people play long enough for unlimited-use abilities to become more valuable. Even between limited use and unlimited use martial-ish-types, there's an imbalance, though this could also be because of exceedingly poor class design (rogue, fighter) and paizo-loved classes (barbarian, paladin). Even if you took the Paladin's smite away, you'd still have a very sturdy self-healing 1/2 casting chassis with all sorts of abilities that completely invalidate Fighter class features (feats don't count). While a smiteless Paladin would perform worse than a regular fighter in terms of raw damage output, they wouldn't suddenly become a liability if they encountered any sort of mage or enemy who could force will saves.

tl;dr: Unlimited vs limited is a bad comparison in Pathfinder because of poor unlimited class design.


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thejeff wrote:
Otherwhere wrote:
I like "per Encounter" limits rather than "per Day" limits. It makes more sense to me in most cases. ("Wha-? That combat feat I just performed I can't do any more, even though it uses up zero resources?")

"per Encounter" drives me nuts, since it seems to be such a metagame concept. What is an encounter anyway?

Why can I do this thing only once unless something changes and it becomes a different encounter, whatever that means?

Can I use these abilities outside of an "encounter"?

It also imposes metagame considerations of "No, we shouldn't chase that guy, we need to get out of combat for a few minute so we'll have our encounter powers back." No pushing on quickly hoping to deal with anyone before they can react. The Special Forces team has to sit down and spend 5 minutes resting after storming the guardhouse and before moving into the hallway.

You run into the same issues with other limits. Why can I only do this revelation or trait once per day? Is a day change in 24 hours or at 12:01? Why can I rage for 8 rounds and not 9? Why can I not use this ability to snipe again because the target knows I'm there but another person can walk up and is able to use that ability? Does what same Special Forces team wait 5 minutes so that someone's daily ability recharge since it's 12:55...

So no matter what the limitation is, it's a metagame concept. If you're willing to ignore the vast amount of other metagame concepts in the game, I don't see how per Encounter is any worse or more egregious than other limits.

This isn't an endorsement of encounter abilities per se. Just not seeing them as worse than the nonsensical, IMO, daily abilities that are all over the game.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

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There's way better ways to implement "per encounter" abilities. The psionic focus mechanic from Psionics Unleashed is a great example of it done right. It takes a full-round action to gain psionic focus, which you can expend to perform certain class features. This means you can typically only do it once per encounter or regain psionic focus by losing your turn.


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graystone wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Otherwhere wrote:
I like "per Encounter" limits rather than "per Day" limits. It makes more sense to me in most cases. ("Wha-? That combat feat I just performed I can't do any more, even though it uses up zero resources?")

"per Encounter" drives me nuts, since it seems to be such a metagame concept. What is an encounter anyway?

Why can I do this thing only once unless something changes and it becomes a different encounter, whatever that means?

Can I use these abilities outside of an "encounter"?

It also imposes metagame considerations of "No, we shouldn't chase that guy, we need to get out of combat for a few minute so we'll have our encounter powers back." No pushing on quickly hoping to deal with anyone before they can react. The Special Forces team has to sit down and spend 5 minutes resting after storming the guardhouse and before moving into the hallway.

You run into the same issues with other limits. Why can I only do this revelation or trait once per day? Is a day change in 24 hours or at 12:01? Why can I rage for 8 rounds and not 9? Why can I not use this ability to snipe again because the target knows I'm there but another person can walk up and is able to use that ability? Does what same Special Forces team wait 5 minutes so that someone's daily ability recharge since it's 12:55...

So no matter what the limitation is, it's a metagame concept. If you're willing to ignore the vast amount of other metagame concepts in the game, I don't see how per Encounter is any worse or more egregious than other limits.

This isn't an endorsement of encounter abilities per se. Just not seeing them as worse than the nonsensical, IMO, daily abilities that are all over the game.

Because at least "day" is a in-game concept.

"Encounter" itself is a metagame thing. That's what bothers me about it.


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That's just drawing an arbitrary line in the sand, to be honest. There are plenty of metagame concept that are used to streamline the game (Looking at you, HP), one more that could potentially increase balance and fun by A LOT won't hurt anything.


I don't think "Per Encounter" is that metagamey. Yes players and GMs could get into a RAW argument over the "exact nature" of what an encounter is. But the basics is that it's an ability that your character can only use so many times before they have the ability to rest and recover. If you think of a "Day" as a "Period of time between when I rest 8 hours". Then you can easily think of an "Encounter" as a "Period of time between when I rest 5 minutes"

Sovereign Court

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thejeff wrote:

Because at least "day" is a in-game concept.

"Encounter" itself is a metagame thing. That's what bothers me about it.

Instead of having it be an 'encounter' power - make it so that you get it back when you take a 2min break to catch your breath.

Though I do agree a bit - in that it means that character make sure to burn virtually all of their encounter powers every fight. Makes how they play out more predictable.

Such a system works better in a spell-point (or mana or whatever) where you get 1/2 or so of what you spent in a fight back after resting for a few minutes. (catching your breath)


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Per encounter doesn't need to be per encounter. If there is a described action that regains a resource that is less or unpractical in mid combatits still a per encounter resource but aviods feeling awkward by trying to define what an encounter is.


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Reminds me of the tome of battle. You regain your abilities after a few minutes of effectively stretches and such to get ready. So in an combat scenerio it is "per encounter" but has real world limits that doesnt break senses.


Per encounter metagame is not as bad as Style Feats where you can explicitly use them in combat only. Meaning that the Wisdom bonus you get from Monkey Chain to Climb and Acrobatics won't work unless you declare combat on the tree first.


That's how Path of War works, basically. Per Encounter-style abilities (Maneuvers) recharge after a solid minute with no combat has passed, or if the Initiator takes a Full Round to recover some of them.


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I haven't read the thread, so I apologize if I'm repeating an already discussed point. However, at least when it comes to magic items, it seems doing something 5 times per day is about on par with "at-will" per the magic item creation guidelines. I don't get the fuss around at-will. Wish at-will might be a bit much. However, there are, in fact, worse things.

I designed a high level witch that uses prehensile hair to deliver the majority of her attacks. That was over a dozen uses per day at one minute slices. I've begun playing her grassroots style in a Hells Rebels campaign taking that hex at level 1. By level 2 it was incredibly easier to play her. I anticipate by level 5 (as we just hit 3) I won't even think about needing to really restrain myself in having her use that hex. Plus, with other abilities and spells, and other party mates, the concept really makes sense.

So, if the bar is that low before Paizo says "screw it, just do it when you want" then I don't get the fuss over the term.


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Just one added point, though I'm not sure it matters much.

All this x/day vs at will only really makes sense for combat specific powers. (And the "per Encounter" thing makes no sense otherwise.)

For out of combat utility powers it matters a lot: unlimited flight is far different than "Flight 5 minutes/day in 1 minute increments".


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thejeff wrote:

Just one added point, though I'm not sure it matters much.

All this x/day vs at will only really makes sense for combat specific powers. (And the "per Encounter" thing makes no sense otherwise.)

For out of combat utility powers it matters a lot: unlimited flight is far different than "Flight 5 minutes/day in 1 minute increments".

Not everything works perfectly in it. However, a once per day overland flight lets you fly all day for all intents and purposes once you can cast it. Doing it even a second time per day is almost useless if we're talking about out of combat utility.


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Buri Reborn wrote:
thejeff wrote:

Just one added point, though I'm not sure it matters much.

All this x/day vs at will only really makes sense for combat specific powers. (And the "per Encounter" thing makes no sense otherwise.)

For out of combat utility powers it matters a lot: unlimited flight is far different than "Flight 5 minutes/day in 1 minute increments".

Not everything works perfectly in it. However, a once per day overland flight lets you fly all day for all intents and purposes once you can cast it. Doing it even a second time per day is almost useless if we're talking about out of combat utility.

Well, once/day, but all day, isn't really all that limited.


Otherwhere wrote:

Because Detect Magic is an at-will, unlimited use cantrip now, I simply turned it into a sense that all spell-casters simply have. Yes, they have to concentrate with the minor hassles that imposes, but otherwise they all can sense magic. In a world where this is so prevalent, the counter-measures are also commonly employed to obscure the aura when/if it is important to do so.

Creates some extra work for me, but I like the flavor and so it isn't a problem.

Honestly, I'd go further and make it like the magical senses of a wizard from the Dresden Files. It's generally touch range only, but you have the option to concentrate and open The Sight (basically true seeing). Doing so, however, opens up your mind to an assault from the primal forces you perceive. The stronger the thing you look at through The Sight, the worse the impact it'll have on your brain and the more you'll have to fight to not have it irreversibly damage your psyche. Think of looking at a balor and having the concentrated psychic wrath of thousands of mass murderers attempting to reflexively tear your mind apart in an instant. It's that level of bad. Oh, and I DO mean irreversibly, it cannot be undone, ever. Once you view something in The Sight, it's there indefinitely, in perfect technicolor recall, an echo of it constantly going through your mind at some level. Wizards in the Dresden Files need to be made of stern mental stuff or they simply f#@&ing lose it from eventual use of this kind of power. Which is what's awesome about the Dresden-verse: magic is amazing there, but its use is also very dangerous to the untrained, the arrogant, and the reckless.


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Cerberus Seven wrote:
Otherwhere wrote:

Because Detect Magic is an at-will, unlimited use cantrip now, I simply turned it into a sense that all spell-casters simply have. Yes, they have to concentrate with the minor hassles that imposes, but otherwise they all can sense magic. In a world where this is so prevalent, the counter-measures are also commonly employed to obscure the aura when/if it is important to do so.

Creates some extra work for me, but I like the flavor and so it isn't a problem.

Honestly, I'd go further and make it like the magical senses of a wizard from the Dresden Files. It's generally touch range only, but you have the option to concentrate and open The Sight (basically true seeing). Doing so, however, opens up your mind to an assault from the primal forces you perceive. The stronger the thing you look at through The Sight, the worse the impact it'll have on your brain and the more you'll have to fight to not have it irreversibly damage your psyche. Think of looking at a balor and having the concentrated psychic wrath of thousands of mass murderers attempting to reflexively tear your mind apart in an instant. It's that level of bad. Oh, and I DO mean irreversibly, it cannot be undone, ever. Once you view something in The Sight, it's there indefinitely, in perfect technicolor recall, an echo of it constantly going through your mind at some level. Wizards in the Dresden Files need to be made of stern mental stuff or they simply f#@&ing lose it from eventual use of this kind of power. Which is what's awesome about the Dresden-verse: magic is amazing there, but its use is also very dangerous to the untrained, the arrogant, and the reckless.

That is how I handle it. If you're able to manipulate magic, you are able to Detect it at will. It requires focus (concentration) but is otherwise always "on."

It also saves the repetitious: "I'll cast Detect Magic every 10 minutes" kind of bs that would otherwise be required. But that's to make my life as GM simpler. I simply assume the characters are doing what would be their S.O.P. - Rogues checking for traps; mages checking for magic; etc.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I actually really like once per encounter for martial tricks. It assumes your opponent is smart, and won't be fooled by the same trick twice. If you want to make it more realistic, it can be "once per opponent", where opponent isn't just the target, but anyone else in the combat who watched you do something.

As opposed to what the Swashbuckler in my group does every round:

Swashbuckler: Oops, I dropped my sword!
Enemy: Clearly he's vulnerable!
Swashbuckler: Ha, I kicked it up as free action, now I get to feint!
next round...
Swashbuckler: Oops, I dropped my sword!
Enemy: Clearly he's vulnerable!


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deinol wrote:

I actually really like once per encounter for martial tricks. It assumes your opponent is smart, and won't be fooled by the same trick twice. If you want to make it more realistic, it can be "once per opponent", where opponent isn't just the target, but anyone else in the combat who watched you do something.

As opposed to what the Swashbuckler in my group does every round:

Swashbuckler: Oops, I dropped my sword!
Enemy: Clearly he's vulnerable!
Swashbuckler: Ha, I kicked it up as free action, now I get to feint!
next round...
Swashbuckler: Oops, I dropped my sword!
Enemy: Clearly he's vulnerable!

Damn computer AI never catches that stuff...


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
graystone wrote:
deinol wrote:

I actually really like once per encounter for martial tricks. It assumes your opponent is smart, and won't be fooled by the same trick twice. If you want to make it more realistic, it can be "once per opponent", where opponent isn't just the target, but anyone else in the combat who watched you do something.

As opposed to what the Swashbuckler in my group does every round:

Swashbuckler: Oops, I dropped my sword!
Enemy: Clearly he's vulnerable!
Swashbuckler: Ha, I kicked it up as free action, now I get to feint!
next round...
Swashbuckler: Oops, I dropped my sword!
Enemy: Clearly he's vulnerable!

Damn computer AI never catches that stuff...

I was referring to this feat:

PRD wrote:


Kick Up (Combat)
You have learned how to kick items on the ground up to a ready hand.

Prerequisites: Dex 12, Acrobatic, Acrobatics 1 rank; slayer level 1st or swashbuckler level 1st.

Benefit: As long as you have at least one hand free, you can use a swift action to retrieve a single unattended item or weapon that weighs 10 pounds or less from the ground, either in your square or in any adjacent square not occupied or threatened by an enemy. Additionally, when you kick up a weapon and attempt a feint before the end of your turn, you receive a +2 circumstance bonus on the feint attempt.

So yes, according to the rules monsters and npcs are equally fooled by that trick every round.

Not the most overpowered maneuver, but it was a silly example I could think of from a recent game.


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I know. I was making a joke about poor computer foes that are tricked by the same thing every time...


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thejeff wrote:
Otherwhere wrote:
I like "per Encounter" limits rather than "per Day" limits. It makes more sense to me in most cases. ("Wha-? That combat feat I just performed I can't do any more, even though it uses up zero resources?")

"per Encounter" drives me nuts, since it seems to be such a metagame concept. What is an encounter anyway?

Why can I do this thing only once unless something changes and it becomes a different encounter, whatever that means?

Can I use these abilities outside of an "encounter"?

It also imposes metagame considerations of "No, we shouldn't chase that guy, we need to get out of combat for a few minute so we'll have our encounter powers back." No pushing on quickly hoping to deal with anyone before they can react. The Special Forces team has to sit down and spend 5 minutes resting after storming the guardhouse and before moving into the hallway.

Tome of Battle was a nice little in between of Per Encounter and Per Recharge. They can wait 5 minutes to get back all their maneuvers (unless they had Adaptive Style feat) or use their listed action.

Warblades get one back with a standard action or an attack action (with no Strike maneuvers). Swordsages get 1 with full rd action (or all with the feat). Crusaders are just crusaders so they get own special mechanics.


I for one, as a player, love to correct GMs who believe there is no problem with 'at will', having never made it to level 6 before the 'talk' on what the heck I was doing that was wrecking his (never her) game. I played a Cleric through Crimson Throne and suckered the Sorceress in as an accomplice to derail several encounters in the first book. Before we started book 2, the three of us had a 'pizza showdown' and he implemented some revisions. The rest of the AP was a lot tighter. Damn fine time!

I use spell points to make resource management vital and prevent most of the abuses I can see (including several I don't understand but see in operation).

If you don't think an at will is OP, you haven't had a min/max power trip megalomaniac spam cure minor wounds.


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There is no cure minor wounds in Pathfinder, precisely because they made orisons at-will.


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What is cure minor wounds? I can't find it on the PRD or PFSRD. Is it a 3PP or from a previous edition?

I'm guessing it's a cantrip that healed 1 HP? If so, there's nothing OP about that. Out of combat healing isn't OP, and in combat there's a lot more valuable things you can do other than heal 1 HP a round or damage undead by 1 HP per round.


It's a cleric orison from 3.5 that healed 1 hit point.

The comparison doesn't really follow, though, because cure minor wounds, while really useful, is outclassed significantly by a cure light wounds wand, and, after the first few levels, that's not really an impediment anymore, unless the GM is extremely tight with cash.


Tacticslion wrote:

It's a cleric orison from 3.5 that healed 1 hit point.

The comparison doesn't really follow, though, because cure minor wounds, while really useful, is outclassed significantly by a cure light wounds wand, and, after the first few levels, that's not really an impediment anymore, unless the GM is extremely tight with cash.

In most 3.0 or 3.5 based video games (ToEE, NWN 1 or D&D Tactics, etc), except for Guidance, it is the best useage most of time for orisons.

It lowers need for 15 minute adventuring day for meleers (okay, it makes it 30 minutes instead).

Grand Lodge

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Sure, spend a round per hit point healing up. Hope your buffs last that long.


Starbuck_II wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:

It's a cleric orison from 3.5 that healed 1 hit point.

The comparison doesn't really follow, though, because cure minor wounds, while really useful, is outclassed significantly by a cure light wounds wand, and, after the first few levels, that's not really an impediment anymore, unless the GM is extremely tight with cash.

In most 3.0 or 3.5 based video games (ToEE, NWN 1 or D&D Tactics, etc), except for Guidance, it is the best useage most of time for orisons.

It lowers need for 15 minute adventuring day for meleers (okay, it makes it 30 minutes instead).

I don't recall it being unlimited in the video games. Which makes it a couple of hit points at best.

Which might still be the best usage, most of them became pointless pretty quickly.
And in the video games, your best bet for healing was almost always just to back off a bit and sleep. However much that broke my immersion.

(I only really played NWN, though)


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thejeff wrote:
Starbuck_II wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:

It's a cleric orison from 3.5 that healed 1 hit point.

The comparison doesn't really follow, though, because cure minor wounds, while really useful, is outclassed significantly by a cure light wounds wand, and, after the first few levels, that's not really an impediment anymore, unless the GM is extremely tight with cash.

In most 3.0 or 3.5 based video games (ToEE, NWN 1 or D&D Tactics, etc), except for Guidance, it is the best useage most of time for orisons.

It lowers need for 15 minute adventuring day for meleers (okay, it makes it 30 minutes instead).

I don't recall it being unlimited in the video games. Which makes it a couple of hit points at best.

Which might still be the best usage, most of them became pointless pretty quickly.
And in the video games, your best bet for healing was almost always just to back off a bit and sleep. However much that broke my immersion.

(I only really played NWN, though)

ToEE and D&D Tactics you can't rest everywhere.

NWN and 2 had more rest anywhere bits I'll admit.


In NWN, at least, it cured 4 hp at a time, making it (at low levels) more useful than cure light wounds.

Further, in NWN, it was not unlimited. The lack of more than a four one-use orisons or cantrips was a serious "that's dumb" rule for me when dealing with 3.X spell growth charts.

(I house-ruled that folks got 1 more cantrip or orison than 1st level spell due to a high ability modifier. But that didn't help in NWN.)

Quote:
And in the video games, your best bet for healing was almost always just to back off a bit and sleep. However much that broke my immersion.

Absolutely true. The 15-minute adventuring day never really existed in NWN. Though, then again, the most powerful spells didn't either, and the spell levels, effects, and similar were all mixed up and all over the place, compared to either 3rd or 3.5... and they added their own.

But I suppose purchasing a wand of cure minor wounds in PnP 3rd was still a fairly valid use of currency. I'm not really sure how available it would have been at the time, as it's growing harder to recall the differences between the editions at times, from AD&D through 5th.


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Bwang wrote:

I for one, as a player, love to correct GMs who believe there is no problem with 'at will', having never made it to level 6 before the 'talk' on what the heck I was doing that was wrecking his (never her) game. I played a Cleric through Crimson Throne and suckered the Sorceress in as an accomplice to derail several encounters in the first book. Before we started book 2, the three of us had a 'pizza showdown' and he implemented some revisions. The rest of the AP was a lot tighter. Damn fine time!

I use spell points to make resource management vital and prevent most of the abuses I can see (including several I don't understand but see in operation).

If you don't think an at will is OP, you haven't had a min/max power trip megalomaniac spam cure minor wounds.

Cure minor wounds doesn't exist in pathfinder, and as I recall it healed one HP per casting. If you wanted to give an example of overpowered at-will abilities you didn't do a very good job of it, since unlimited out-of-combat healing is neither rare nor particularly overpowered. Consider that an encounter's CR is, I believe, calculated based on a party of 4 that is considered to be at full power.

It seems as though you've ignored a large part of the arguments in favor of at-will abilities, which is fine I guess, it's a lot to read through. But I'm not sure what your post was trying to convince me of other than you went out of your way to sabotage your GM's game, in which case there are far more efficient ways of doing so than spamming at-will abilities (like being a wizard for instance).


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5,000 gp get you Boots of the Earth that grant fast healing 1 all day, every day [with a move action] and the whole party can take turns wearing them... A perfect item for the party to chip in and buy together.

So what was so game-wrecking about cure minor wounds?

Also, Spark + Glorious Heat = 1/2 level hp healing every round spark is cast...


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graystone wrote:

5,000 gp get you Boots of the Earth that grant fast healing 1 all day, every day [with a move action] and the whole party can take turns wearing them... A perfect item for the party to chip in and buy together.

So what was so game-wrecking about cure minor wounds?

Power Creep!!!!! Paizo is ruining Pathfinder forever.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Azraiel wrote:
Nicos wrote:
I have a couple of problems with that. First you have to counter a spell with another spell. Second it make things more convoluted that they should be. Third the whole planning that kind of stuff is annoying, it doesn't show how smart the GM is, it doesn't show how much the Gm know the system, it is just a burden to have to do this kind of things. And that is just a cantrip. But well, I suppose my rant is more about magic in PF in general.

Welcome to caster supremacy?

But in all seriousness, any undercover villain (or hero for that matter) that doesn't mask their true alignment and any suspicious magical auras they're carrying around isn't even trying to stay hidden. Magic and alignment detection have been omnipresent throughout D&D's history.

They have the POTENTIAL to be omnipresent. It does not follow that they MUST be.


Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:
Reminds me of the tome of battle. You regain your abilities after a few minutes of effectively stretches and such to get ready. So in an combat scenerio it is "per encounter" but has real world limits that doesnt break senses.

I have such mixed feelings about that book...

In some ways, i loved it...
In others, I hated it...

So conflicted...

I guess I wanted martials to have nice things like casters, but felt that recovering abilities after ONE round was too much (forget the class, but you could basically use stuff one round, spend the next recovering, then use it again).

Was there something called Firesnake? I dunno, I've been drinking for hours...


Ravingdork wrote:


lemeres wrote:


And yes, you will likely not get too far in tight, winding corridors. You can get around the first bend though (And then have it shoot straight until it hits a wall and you just end there

The difference between a Snake blast and a Snake Ride the Blast is that you are going along with the latter. There is nothing that says your senses are impaired while you are using Ride the Blast.

Do you have all of your players declare their end point before they start moving? If someone enters a patch of spike stones, do you require them to finish all of their movement taking tons of damage, or do you let them change their mind/direction once they stumble into that first square, taking a little bit of damage?

And what you do in your games doesn't really matter. The rules are explicit. You can decide how your character moves ONE SQUARE AT A TIME.

I see absolutely no rules-related restrictions that would prevent someone from using Ride the Blast and Snake to get around complicated obstacles pretty easily.

That's true for movement, but you aren't doing movement - you are doing an attack. There's nothing to imply that you can change the path of your snake based on what it encounters.


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New players at least will look at unlimited use options as being better than limited. I remember the 'fun' of running out of spells in 2d edition. That, actually, was the ONLY time I played a wizard. Ever.

And he died anyway.

Things to remember: if it's too few times, a player will often wonder if it should be used up here, or if it should be Saved Until Later When It's Going To Be Needed (TM). If you only have four rounds of rage left, will you really cut loose the next fight? If you're down to your last spell, when do you cast it, and is that time 'before the monster takes out the barbarian who's one shot from dropping'?

Speaking of barbarians, that reminds me of the other side of limiting uses: people trying to get around that restriction. Rage cycling was called out by our GM as a reason he went with Unchained when it came out, and the main point of that was to turn those great 1/rage powers into 1/round ones. Players will try to find any way around some limitations ...

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