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Hello! I'm running an evil wizard (And am posting about it a lot. Have a lot of questions :P) and was wondering your opinions of the Lich. There's quite a few things to love about it, including immortality, all the nice undead immunities, a natural armor bonus (meaning huge AC's for wizards now, weehee), DR, a nice +2 to all three mental scores, and loads of resistances. Plus, you can't be killed unless your phylactery is destroyed.
However, being undead can be difficult in many different ways. While you just sort of minded your own business in your dark tower before, now every clergyman and adventurer across the continent is at your door. More undead for your army, but still. You can be controlled, though it is difficult. You are also rotting, and need an alter self spell every so often to keep yourself from looking like a corpse. You draw quite a bit of attention to yourself and though you have gained quite a few immunities, you have gained quite a few glaring weaknesses to holy water, positive energy, and spells that target the undead.
My question is if lichdom is worth it for wizards, and if it is, how do you get around those weaknesses? Getting first in initiative is likely, but not guaranteed. Even if you contingency yourself outta there, you will have to deal with the lich hunt eventually. Opinions?
Good way to avoid death from old age, but if that isn't creeping up on you it's not really worth the effort and exorbitant cost. I can think of better ways to spend 120k.
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Well, always remember- there are other outs for death.
I personally like the worm that walks. It is not really a plan, so much as a happy coincidence that you are so evil and powerful that you tell Pharasma to go stick a ceremonial dagger where Sarenrae don't shine....
It is for the kind of guy that you can kind expect to get stabbed and left to rot in a random field. The kind the lives fast, dies young...and then doesn't stop after that. People have tried to stop you... and you can see how well that worked out. So you might as well keep going full throttle.
Much nicer than the rather conservative lich when you need someone that is willing to blow up the world.
Anyway, being a swarm allows you to go incognito much more easily than being a rotten corpse.
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You won't be able to enjoy the taste of coffee again. That's a pretty big downside.
You won't be able to enjoy the taste of coffee again. That's a pretty big downside.
True, vampires at least can get the caffine by drinking someone that drank coffee.
Lich is worth is just for the awesome, classic evil wizard trope. How often do you really get to pursue lichdom in a campaign, anyway? :D
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Yeah, I've never really gotten the whole lich thing given that vampirism is SO much easier to achieve and overall 'more powerful'... +18 to stats instead of +6, better HPs (due to higher Cha), better healing (from fast healing 5, blood drain, AND energy drain), better natural armor bonus, lots more special powers, et cetera. Lich's get better DR and energy immunity and don't have the vampire's specific weaknesses. Lich rejuvenation is nice, but takes 1d10 days... while a 'destroyed' vampire is back at full power in a little over an hour. In theory you are at the mercy of the vampire that turns you... but that is easily circumvented;
find vampire too low level to control you
take vampire somewhere it can't get to its coffin in 2 hours
summon powerful outsider
make deal with outsider to kill vampire in 100 hours unless you banish it first
tell vampire to make you a full vampire or die (i.e. spawn wouldn't be able to dismiss the outsider)
So yep, lich is the classic... I just don't really see why.
Yeah, I've never really gotten the whole lich thing given that vampirism is SO much easier to achieve and overall 'more powerful'... +18 to stats instead of +6, better HPs (due to higher Cha), better healing (from fast healing 5, blood drain, AND energy drain), better natural armor bonus, lots more special powers, et cetera. Lich's get better DR and energy immunity and don't have the vampire's specific weaknesses. Lich rejuvenation is nice, but takes 1d10 days... while a 'destroyed' vampire is back at full power in a little over an hour. In theory you are at the mercy of the vampire that turns you... but that is easily circumvented;
find vampire too low level to control you
take vampire somewhere it can't get to its coffin in 2 hours
summon powerful outsider
make deal with outsider to kill vampire in 100 hours unless you banish it first
tell vampire to make you a full vampire or die (i.e. spawn wouldn't be able to dismiss the outsider)So yep, lich is the classic... I just don't really see why.
Well, vampires have ridiculously stupid weaknesses. While lich is just bonuses, so that's probably why. You wouldn't even be able to play a vampire in my setting effectively simply because of the running water weakness.
I have played a few. It is definitely both fun and worth it.
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Wouldn't Contingency -> Lesser Wish -> Reincarnation be:
- cheaper
- easier
- faster
- non-alignment specific?
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Wouldn't Contingency -> Lesser Wish -> Reincarnation be:
- cheaper
- easier
- faster
- non-alignment specific?
my character (arcanist) has contingency + reincarnate up. (how he got reincarnate is a long and involved story - but RAW you could do it with a short-med dip into Collegiate Arcanist).
the downside is that you have to keep repaying the reincarnate cost. The upside is that you can specify the reincarnate to trigger n rounds/turns after you bite it. the cost isn't exorbanant (I just hit 17th level). Adding extend spell to the contingency and using the arcanist exploit to extend the duration of a spell you can keep that one reincarnate up for at least a month and a half (roughly).
Of course what you reincarnate into is a mixed bag...
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Tammy thinks it's worth it.
Contingency can be dispelled ?
for clones you need lvl 15
lichdom is only lvl 11
Scrolls, my friend. Way cheaper to get the scrolls to cast clone, create a demiplane where time doesn't exist, and populate it with traps and guards to protect your body than to become a lich.
Yes, contingency can be dispelled.. but I'm a L17 arcanist right now... adding in the +2 to CL (ioun stone + tattoo) would make it a DC 30 to dispel it. I could add another 2 if I wanted to forego the extra length.
Of course, if I wanted to be really weird, I could also maximize the reincarnate spell. That would make it an autoroll of 100 (GM's choice). No idea what an empowered spell would do if it's over 100. lol.
In short, yes, lichdom is definitely worth it if you are worried about being killed or just like the idea of being an undead master.
Vampires are meant to be infiltrators and chameleons; if the realize you are hunting them, they will kill you or go into hiding. They are supposed to be mysterious parasites on society. Someone brought up that Vamps are at full power 1-hr after being defeated, and yes this is true. However, for one hour they are too weak to do anything. Typical vampire hunting strategy dictates that you find where the vampire will go, then attack it.
Liches are just power. Every dedicated arcane caster's main weakness is the fact that they are easy to kill if they are unprepared *queue Illidan proclaiming that you are not prepared*. Lichdom resolves this by giving you a free unconditional revive 1d10 days after death. The other major thing is the paralyze. The vast majority of people on Golarion are NPCs with NPC levels between level 1 and 6 (CR 1/3 and 4). Practically none of them are going to resist the Lich's paralyzing touch, meaning that encountering a lich more or less equals death. You basically have the equivalent of a vorpal sword who, on touch, relies on the victim to either have a bad save or roll a 1. There is also the bit where you can touch yourself and heal yourself. It isn't automatic, but that isn't that bad.
The other major benefit of Lichdom if the army you can have walking around with you. Zombies are actually viable as more than cannon-fodder since you can heal them up to full between fights (effectively replacing bloody skeletons so long as they don't die) and can animate up to 30 HD instead of 20, making them far more dangerous statistic wise. The other major benefit is that you could actually have a small army of intelligent undead at your beak and call, mostly because they know that killing you permanently will be next to impossible. What is better than bloody skeletons? Why, bloody skeleton champions, of course!
There are some downsides, however, most notably being you lose the ability to be hedonistic in certain fields. You can't go to a brothel (code named: "Dance house" in Ultimate Campaign) after an adventure and disappear for a week. Well, you could, but I'm pretty sure everyone would run screaming instead of sauntering up to you.
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Tammy's always prepared.
Also if Tammy disappears in a dancehall for a week you better believe no one is walking out alive (tho they will be walking out:-D)
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You won't be able to enjoy the taste of coffee again. That's a pretty big downside.
This is a HUGE problem. Seriously. No really. Seriously. P-R-O-B-L-E-M
Ah, yes.... because when you become a lich you can still see, hear, smell, touch, and have a sense of balance.... but suddenly you lose the ability to taste coffee?
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Lich + Transformation = Mum Rah, the everliving.
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Interesting. Didn't even know the Worm that Walks existed. If I bite the dust before I can achieve lichdom, that would probably be the path I would take. But if I do survive, I'm definitely going the route of lichdom. It doesn't have that many weaknesses, and my will save would be so high by that point that I doubt control and command undead would even work. Plus having a spare spellbook next to my phylactery in a private demiplane seems like the safest route. My wizard is still young, so he has quite a few years to gather up the gold. Thanks for the info!
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Also, you're a magic user. I see no reason why a remotely intelligent lich couldn't/wouldn't take steps to keep his body from decaying. As a matter of fact, that'd be on my list of spells to research during the process of finding 120K GP.
Assuming no other spell would do, though I think there are multiple options, I'd just research a spell. "Appear living" Target: Dead body for the next 24 hours the dead body does not decay and has all appearances of life (heartbeat, breathing, warmth, etc.). You're an 11th level caster. This is probably the equivalent of a first or second level spell.
Edit: Hell, with just a little prep it wouldn't be that hard to convince people you're not dead.
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Lichdom is a well-established route to becoming a god. I went that route long ago with a Halfling psion who went psionic lich with the intent on becoming the Halfling god of Vengeance. Just think of the power he'd have. Every time they had to deal with a short joke or were told to keep up by somebody longer-legged, he'd get more influence. Imagine the rage simmering under those smiling, genial faces.
Vampirism has problems. You need someone to bring you in, and they'll be cautious about somebody they don't know. Sunlight is an issue, which means only working at night of heading underground. And you need to feed all the time.
As a lich, you keep away from holy stuff and you're okay. It's more for the people who like to sit home and read instead of going to a party. You do it in your isolated, trapped tower and nobody even knows you're dead. There's finally time enough to read everything.
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As a lich, you keep away from holy stuff and you're okay. It's more for the people who like to sit home and read instead of going to a party. You do it in your isolated, trapped tower and nobody even knows you're dead. There's finally time enough to read everything.
There is also the point about if you're a lich that isn't a complete jerk to people.
Imagine if you actually did nice things for people, they might like you enough to say that you are not bat-shiz evil, but this really only works if you're lawful evil.If you want true immortality, get powerful enough to cast gate, go to the plane of your god or gods, and ask the god you serve to grant you true immortality. Ask what mighty quest you need undergo for this boon. In essence, you'd become a demi-god, but it is also entirely possible that the deity would just grant you the auto-reincarnate ability Reincarnated Druids have.
You could also just play a reincarnated druid, and take two levels in Green Faith whatever so you can sleep off the negative levels.
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Or have some Clones ready. Or just keep Magic Jarring into expendable bodies. Or have reliable minions with Raise Dead scrolls. Or all of the above.
Astral Projection from your personal pocket dimension.
The spell is indefinite duration and places your body in suspended animation. There is no RAW for breaking the silver cord in Pathfinder.
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Ah, yes.... because when you become a lich you can still see, hear, smell, touch, and have a sense of balance.... but suddenly you lose the ability to taste coffee?
Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.
I'm assuming that drinking is included with the no eating thing. If you'd prefer, becoming a lich means giving up ice cream.
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Ah, yes.... because when you become a lich you can still see, hear, smell, touch, and have a sense of balance.... but suddenly you lose the ability to taste coffee?Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.I'm assuming that drinking is included with the no eating thing. If you'd prefer, becoming a lich means giving up ice cream.
I'm out.
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I'm out.Ah, yes.... because when you become a lich you can still see, hear, smell, touch, and have a sense of balance.... but suddenly you lose the ability to taste coffee?Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.I'm assuming that drinking is included with the no eating thing. If you'd prefer, becoming a lich means giving up ice cream.
spell research?
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I'm out.Ah, yes.... because when you become a lich you can still see, hear, smell, touch, and have a sense of balance.... but suddenly you lose the ability to taste coffee?Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.I'm assuming that drinking is included with the no eating thing. If you'd prefer, becoming a lich means giving up ice cream.spell research?
Oh, right. Aaannnnnddd I'm back.
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Also, you're a magic user. I see no reason why a remotely intelligent lich couldn't/wouldn't take steps to keep his body from decaying. As a matter of fact, that'd be on my list of spells to research during the process of finding 120K GP.
Assuming no other spell would do, though I think there are multiple options, I'd just research a spell. "Appear living" Target: Dead body for the next 24 hours the dead body does not decay and has all appearances of life (heartbeat, breathing, warmth, etc.). You're an 11th level caster. This is probably the equivalent of a first or second level spell.
Edit: Hell, with just a little prep it wouldn't be that hard to convince people you're not dead.
Gentle Repose.
And just to be safe against dispels and just so should you forget to refresh it immediately over the coming centuries Unguent of Timelessness, so that you dont start to desiccate as fast as a normal fresh corpse.
If you plan it from the start, and are diligent in your rebuffing, you are just a bit cooler that "normal". and this is what Gloves are for. .. Well, not exactly, but you get the drift.
If in the centuries something or the other happend, there is still Alter Self when you interact with society. The lesss they know about you, the better. The best way to defeat a danger to your eternal undead exkistance, is to never let it raise to oppose you.
Tammy wishes she learned Gentle Repose, instead she must bathe in the blood of the innocent once every moon.
Eternal beauty has a price.
Also, you're a magic user. I see no reason why a remotely intelligent lich couldn't/wouldn't take steps to keep his body from decaying. As a matter of fact, that'd be on my list of spells to research during the process of finding 120K GP.
Assuming no other spell would do, though I think there are multiple options, I'd just research a spell. "Appear living" Target: Dead body for the next 24 hours the dead body does not decay and has all appearances of life (heartbeat, breathing, warmth, etc.). You're an 11th level caster. This is probably the equivalent of a first or second level spell.
Edit: Hell, with just a little prep it wouldn't be that hard to convince people you're not dead.
Gentle Repose.
And just to be safe against dispels and just so should you forget to refresh it immediately over the coming centuries Unguent of Timelessness, so that you dont start to desiccate as fast as a normal fresh corpse.
If you plan it from the start, and are diligent in your rebuffing, you are just a bit cooler that "normal". and this is what Gloves are for. .. Well, not exactly, but you get the drift.
If in the centuries something or the other happend, there is still Alter Self when you interact with society. The lesss they know about you, the better. The best way to defeat a danger to your eternal undead exkistance, is to never let it raise to oppose you.
Gentle Repose wouldn't work - a lich isn't a corpse. Or... is it? Silly undefined terms...
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Gentle Repose works, there's a Lich in an adventure path that uses it every day to keep from rotting.
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If you don't mind third party feats, and happen to be playing Way of the Wicked, there's a few to allow a Lich to retain there previous appearance at the cost of supressing the Aura of Fear called Mortal Visage. I doubt most GM's allowing Lichdom will object to it.
As to whether Lichdom is worth it in terms of gold...you're effectively getting a slotless +2 Headband of Mental Prowess (20,000) and +5 Amulet of Natural Armour (100,000) that you can futher add onto with actual Headbands and Amulets. Given those two items would, infact, total 120,000gp...
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Also, you're a magic user. I see no reason why a remotely intelligent lich couldn't/wouldn't take steps to keep his body from decaying. As a matter of fact, that'd be on my list of spells to research during the process of finding 120K GP.
Assuming no other spell would do, though I think there are multiple options, I'd just research a spell. "Appear living" Target: Dead body for the next 24 hours the dead body does not decay and has all appearances of life (heartbeat, breathing, warmth, etc.). You're an 11th level caster. This is probably the equivalent of a first or second level spell.
Edit: Hell, with just a little prep it wouldn't be that hard to convince people you're not dead.
Gentle Repose.
And just to be safe against dispels and just so should you forget to refresh it immediately over the coming centuries Unguent of Timelessness, so that you dont start to desiccate as fast as a normal fresh corpse.
If you plan it from the start, and are diligent in your rebuffing, you are just a bit cooler that "normal". and this is what Gloves are for. .. Well, not exactly, but you get the drift.
If in the centuries something or the other happend, there is still Alter Self when you interact with society. The lesss they know about you, the better. The best way to defeat a danger to your eternal undead exkistance, is to never let it raise to oppose you.
Sounds like a perfect candidate for a cheap custom magic item. Also, when you are killed and renew your body via phalactry wouldn't it be as it was when you made the phalactry. Aka pre decomposition?
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Presumably there's also something that can be done with capturing an android body and using it. Android bodies renew themselves after the android soul has departed and allow a new soul in. It stands to reason that that ability can be corrupted to keep the same soul in.
And that's how we got clockwork time lords.
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Ah, yes.... because when you become a lich you can still see, hear, smell, touch, and have a sense of balance.... but suddenly you lose the ability to taste coffee?Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.I'm assuming that drinking is included with the no eating thing. If you'd prefer, becoming a lich means giving up ice cream.
Why would you need a fully functional digestive system to taste things?
Lich can speak without vocal cords so... why he cant taste food without tongue and nose ?
(Magic is magic afterall ! :) )
He can taste it but can't eat it. So, chewy, chewy, spit?
*shakes skull as hood billows in the wind*
Lichdom... because you're worth it.
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On a side note, in my current campaign I have the players about to get shunted to the Shadow Plane where the big bad guy is a dracolich who uses Magic Aura to give hundreds of items in his treasure hoard the aura of a phylactery. Of course, the real one is tightly protected elsewhere but it'll be fun watching them deal with the fakes.
@Shiroi
If you found some kind of swarm with a hive mind, I think you might be able to just keep it dominated and living inside you.
Actually, I'm going to remember that if I ever get to play a lich!
Edit- They need an INT score and a hive mind. Hellwasp swarm would work! >=D
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I'm shocked people don't do that already, considering the love of food and hate of obesity.
Side notes aside, I see no reason a lich can't pretend to eat. If they get food in their stomach it might not actually go anywhere though, and this might cause some unpleasant smells and feelings until it's purged. For instance, by placing some form of swarm spell in your stomach. Which is also neat if you ever want to cast vomit swarm for free with no magic and laugh as the opposing wizard headscratches and runs to consult his books.
Yeah...but the lich had better clean that stuff out, or you get rot and maggots- two things that are not very condusive to proper maintenance of a lich body (no idea how well reconstruction works on finer detail; many still seem fairly dead and skeletal despite having that ability; if you want to be anything more than a skeleton, you might need to put in effort)
At some point, after a few hundred years of not needing to eat....putting food into your mouth and swallowing seems more like pouring cereal onto your lap- just messy and disgusting.
That might be why some still choose the lesser paths of vampires and ghouls- they still have enough going on that they can indulge in baser instincts. You might write that off...but many people want immortality, and not all are the clinical wizard who could barely be bothered to leave his studies to eat when he was alive.
Not every Lich is a Wizard, Tammy's a Ranger and damn proud of it.