Do martial characters really need better things?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Ssalarn wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:
Maybe we should stop saying 'martials need better things' and instead say, 'martials need more interesting things'.

Or just be more specific about the context of "better". Generally speaking, their numbers are really solid for combat, but even then there can be issues with adapting to various scenarios (flying opponents, magic walls, etc.).

Maybe "Martials need better tools for adapting in combat and participating out of combat in a magical world".

Yeah, but 'better' makes people angry and confused.


How about "Paizo Martials need tools for adapting in combat and participating out of combat in a magical world"


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How about "Paizo Martials need to evolve through leveling so as to be of comparable threat and danger and flexibility as the magical creatures of equivalent CR that populate a magical world."

A party should be every bit as scared of a Fighter as they would of a [intelligently played] Dragon or Devil with his CR.


Insain Dragoon wrote:

How about "Paizo Martials need tools for adapting in combat and participating out of combat in a magical world"

Bit longwinded though.


Just a bit, but it avoids "trigger words" like

Casters
Better
Nice Things
Disparity

Additionally it specifies that the problem is generally related to Paizo martials, since a lot of 3PP martials already have strong tools.


You forgot tiers as a trigger, but it seems to have lost the same level of hate people had about it before.


BackHandOfFate wrote:

Okay.. getting close to 600 posts not counting the 200 deleted posts... Waiting for the next thread titled "What Kind of Better Things Do Martials Need?"

I just discovered Path of War not too long ago. This stuff is the bomb. Give the fighter a full maneuver progression list and knowledge of four disciplines. Give him 6 skillpoints/level and make the chosen discipline skills class skills for him. Give him a good Reflex or Will save for the love of breadbaskets! Give him ways to shrug off harmful conditions. Make him resilient. Give him all the equipment trick feats for free to encourage diverse fighting styles.

Just a few suggestions.

So, basically, the way to give martials better things in Pathfinder is to not play Pathfinder.

That's basically what I've done since I run my own campaigns and wind up home-brewing so much. I love finding sources that work for me so I don't have to put in so much effort recreating the wheel.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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hiiamtom wrote:
You forgot tiers as a trigger, but it seems to have lost the same level of hate people had about it before.

"Tier" is a trigger word, but it's also not always helpful in facilitating the discussion anyway. You really only cover one axis of the XY chart you need to accurately gauge a class' balance and it's fairly inaccurate as a measurement.

It's much more useful as a tool for a GM designing a campaign than it is for actually designing a class. You might use it as a benchmark, for example "I want the class to be well regarded for its strength and versatility, similar to an alchemist, bard, or inquisitor, so I'll look at what they and other Tier 3 classes have in common".

Less useful would be "I need to bring class X up to Tier Y", because you're only looking at 1/2 of the equation and it may not be possible to safely make that transition without rewriting a fair chunk of the existing mechanics.

It also doesn't really set a firm benchmark. After all, a PF Fighter is technically Tier 4. He is capable of successfully delivering the best full attack damage in the game, swapping back and forth with the Barbarian until you eventually hit 20th level and the Fighter's capstone pushes him into a firm lead. The Fighter actually holds up better in theorycraft than he does in practice.

The other issue is intent of design. Pathfinder has these whacky anime spellcasters who make reality their b%&#+ right from level one, but it's pretty clear that the creative lead and the design team (with a notable exception or two) are actually trying to design a game where the heroes are less like modern anime and more like classic Conan, Elric of Melniboune, with a splash of Miskatonic archaeologist thrown in for good measure. I remember having this revelation reading Occult Adventures where I realized that this new psychic magic and the associated classes was what they'd been designing the game for all along. Despite the fact that they very much created a world and system with anime power levels, they still envision a world where the heroes are weak and flawed, and it's the bad guys who have all the good stuff. The issue becomes, they know how to keep that nasty anime stuff out of their martial characters, they're just too deep in to fix the casters. Then you've got new designers like Mark Seifter or their stable of freelancers who very much recognize the nature of the current game and aim to create materials that belong in the world that is, not the world as they wish it to be... And then you've got a pretty solid explanation for the continuance of martial/caster disparity and the oddity of their errata seeming to disproportionately target martial characters.

The real fix in the game is to revisit spellcasting from the ground up and level it off a bit or break the game up into the kind of Heroic/Legendary/Mythic tiers like 4th edition had to more specifically delineate the expectations of what a character can do at various levels of play, but that's simply not something they can effectively do anymore. You can't fix spellcasting without addressing the multiplicity of game-changing spells that are out there, and you can't bring martial characters up to that level of power without redesigning the game from the base up. So you have the current situation, where martial characters conform to the grittier, less "cartoonish" parameters that some of the Paizo team prefers, because it's easy not to give martials those abilities. Meanwhile, everyone just pretends that casters are perfectly well balanced because the GM doesn't have to listen to the words on the page if he doesn't want to [hyperbole] and everyone knows anime super ninja mages are cheese anyways. [/hyperbole]

I think Pathfinder's "soul" such as it is, is something that's still being defined. You've got the James Jacobs and Jason Buhlman game-as-they-envision-it, which is a very "traditional" grouping of ideas like Rangers and Paladins having to have gods, Paladins having to worship Lawful or Neutral Good deities, Fighters who are constrained by certain limitations that are inaccurately defined as "realism", the belief that "all day" abilities have to be 50% or less effective than limited use abilities, etc. Then you've got the embrace-it-for-what-it-is grouping of philosophies that you see predominantly in 3pp works or newer designers like Mark Seifter where they don't just see the "anime" elements that already suffuse the game, they actively expand on them, with Barbarians whose rage is actually adopting magical fey aspects, goblins who make suits of armor out of ectoplasm, dragon riding warriors and spellcasters, and magic users who forge their energy into magical arm cannons instead of casting spells.

I suspect the game is evolving to a place where both of these philosophies will have to sacrifice a bit to reach an equitable compromise where the magic system is brought down a bit and the nonmagical characters are brought up a bit, but I think any real rebalancing of the current dynamics is something Paizo won't be able to execute until they do a new edition.


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Otherwhere wrote:
BackHandOfFate wrote:

Okay.. getting close to 600 posts not counting the 200 deleted posts... Waiting for the next thread titled "What Kind of Better Things Do Martials Need?"

I just discovered Path of War not too long ago. This stuff is the bomb. Give the fighter a full maneuver progression list and knowledge of four disciplines. Give him 6 skillpoints/level and make the chosen discipline skills class skills for him. Give him a good Reflex or Will save for the love of breadbaskets! Give him ways to shrug off harmful conditions. Make him resilient. Give him all the equipment trick feats for free to encourage diverse fighting styles.

Just a few suggestions.

So, basically, the way to give martials better things in Pathfinder is to not play Pathfinder.

That's basically what I've done since I run my own campaigns and wind up home-brewing so much. I love finding sources that work for me so I don't have to put in so much effort recreating the wheel.

I don't think going third party is neccesarily not playing Pathfinder, just playing enhanced Pathfinder. If you're basically scrubs the problem doesn't really exist and you'll get along fine for a long while, but once you start mastering the game you'd want to join the 3pp Master Race and play real Pathfinder.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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Malwing wrote:

I don't think going third party is neccesarily not playing Pathfinder, just playing enhanced Pathfinder. If you're basically scrubs the problem doesn't really exist and you'll get along fine for a long while, but once you start mastering the game you'd want to join the 3pp Master Race and play real Pathfinder.

I think there's (at least) two Pathfinders, and that's where the trouble starts. The game tries to be Sherlock Holmes, Conan the Barbarian, and Naruto Shippuden all at once, and it does that by making it so that only some classes are allowed access to each of those types of play. Unfortunately, a caster can always play down to the Sherlock or Conan styles, or be poorly built and never reach its potential, but classes like the Fighter and Rogue cannot play up to the Naruto levels, so you end up with a subset of classes that can play any style of game Pathfinder offers, and others that are limited to a select few.

3pp materials let you bridge that gap in a variety of ways, including casters with lower ceilings, martials or martial replacements with higher floors and ceilings, new mechanics to bridge the gaps, etc. I don't necessarily think 3pp is for the "real" players, but I do think it's currently the only tool set that allows you to create a world where the guy who leads nations and rally armies by the might of his strong right arm and the guy who delves the mysteries of the universe and controls the powers of creation can actually meet on equal footing without the GM deus exing in artifacts and plot armor to equalize the playing field.


I agree that the Occult Adventures book is a good gauge of what a "core" refresh would look like with Psychic spellcasting rewriting spells and creating brand new classes around it. I also agree that they have created flavor around specific groups of classes/pulp stories they like. It shows in how the game not only seems balanced only for low level play, but that high level playtesting is treated as an odd an zany thing they tried a few times.

I think this team will always produce a core of 9th level casting with overpowered class abilities, spell-less classes that will struggle at mid and high levels with their bad saves and 3/4 BAB, and a solid set of low tier 2 to low tier 3 classes that are interesting and fun to play. But what they have also done is introduce weaknesses to psychic magic that is fun to play around, improved the ratio of that great middle ground compared to the ends of the class balance spectrum, and create almost amazing subsystems that can easily be adjusted for homebrew (like chakras or psychic skill enhancements).

I would be curious what the gameplay rules of "Pathfinder 2.0" would look like, I think it would have significant changes but be very familiar.


My 2 cents worth: Fighter is one of the weaker classes at levels beyond mid and tends to be a trap for inexperienced players who get sucked in by its lone abilities to OVER-SPECIALIZE. Even a well built versatile fighter becomes too dependent on magical help either from allies or magic items after a while...even while having to spend alot on his weapons.

That said i would hate to change the class more than just a bit here and there...there is a value to having an easy to run class for new players who at times can enjoy doing more damage than anyone else or someone who doesn't want to work too hard while trying to enjoy themselves.

My suggestion would be good will saves along with fortitude. There is no point in giving a class alot of feats and almost "requiring" one or more be used to compensate for an obvious and severe vulnerability. Second I would give greater flexibility to change out feats..or even chains of feats...so the fighter doesn't get permanently trapped in an overly specialized role. Lastly in PFS play, i would enable the fighter be able to acquire arms and/or armor cheaper, in as he misses out on the normal campaign "bonus" of getting all the weapons, armor, and shields no one else but he, can use well.


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Personally I wish they would create more Martials like TPKs Malefactor. A Martial with slight magical ability that does not involve spells in the normal sense that allows them to do interesting things.

On a side note, the Malefactor is easily one of my favorite classes ever :P.

Liberty's Edge

At this point after six years of development I don't think we will ever see any fixes. If we do only 3pp imo. As for renaming similar threads, no matter whatever it's called it will still rub some the wrong way.

As for the soul of the game and evolving. Short of another edition that may have shed some of 3.5. flaws. It makes no sense to do another if it's going to be another rehash of 3.5 with some minor houserules. So ether they find some way to accomadate both who want major change and those who do not. Not a impossible task but damn close imo. Offer something entirely new even if it may cost them fans. Or keep patching a system that while I find fun to play and run is showing it's flaws.


memorax wrote:

At this point after six years of development I don't think we will ever see any fixes. If we do only 3pp imo. As for renaming similar threads, no matter whatever it's called it will still rub some the wrong way.

As for the soul of the game and evolving. Short of another edition that may have shed some of 3.5. flaws. It makes no sense to do another if it's going to be another rehash of 3.5 with some minor houserules. So ether they find some way to accomadate both who want major change and those who do not. Not a impossible task but damn close imo. Offer something entirely new even if it may cost them fans. Or keep patching a system that while I find fun to play and run is showing it's flaws.

At this rate I'm too invested in this version of Pathfinder to change to a new edition if its drastically different and I have little incentive since third party products have literally solved every problem I had with the game and Pathfinder Unchained solved the rest. If there was a Pathfinder 2.0 I imagine that Stamina would be a common resource that synchs up with the numerous pseudo mana pools that seem to be popping up in so many classes so I imagine some kind of feat based maneuver system instead of some combat feats and consolidate feats that happen x times a day into a common resource instead of having a ton of exception rules and differently named pools.

Liberty's Edge

I totally get the point about being invested in PF. Except I just can't see a edition with no major changes selling as well as PF core did imo. As you say with 3pp and some other PF books that fix some flaws. Buying the same thing twice when their 5E and other fantasy rpgs. Just seems like throwing money away for nothing. I like PF just not enough to reinvest in the same material a third time. I can respect not wanting any major changes. Even if I don't necessarily agree. Just giving all class more skill points and a more skills would be a step in the right direction. It's somewhat criminal that Fighters don't get Perception when they are the ones at the front of most if not all adventuring parties.


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BackHandOfFate wrote:

Okay.. getting close to 600 posts not counting the 200 deleted posts... Waiting for the next thread titled "What Kind of Better Things Do Martials Need?"

I just discovered Path of War not too long ago. This stuff is the bomb.

I also started using Path of war not too long ago and I can't like the system, the whole idea of preparing maneuvers kills it for me.


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Ssalarn wrote:

I think there's (at least) two Pathfinders, and that's where the trouble starts. The game tries to be Sherlock Holmes, Conan the Barbarian, and Naruto Shippuden all at once, and it does that by making it so that only some classes are allowed access to each of those types of play.

Ok, you nailed it. This is a very accurate description of the game.


Meager Rolmug wrote:

My 2 cents worth: Fighter is one of the weaker classes at levels beyond mid and tends to be a trap for inexperienced players who get sucked in by its lone abilities to OVER-SPECIALIZE. Even a well built versatile fighter becomes too dependent on magical help either from allies or magic items after a while...even while having to spend alot on his weapons.

That said i would hate to change the class more than just a bit here and there...there is a value to having an easy to run class for new players who at times can enjoy doing more damage than anyone else or someone who doesn't want to work too hard while trying to enjoy themselves.

I'm not sure that a class that's easy to run for new players should also be one that is weak and tends to be a trap. It's the sort of thing that leads to people feeling disappointed, sometimes with the entire concept of tabletop RPGs. I've seen it a couple of locally with people I know joining an experienced PathFinder group that plays locally and finding after three or four sessions that the Fighter or Rogue they were told was a good class to play was not only practically superfluous but was also quite boring. And they won't play anything "D&D-like" as a result.


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Nicos wrote:
BackHandOfFate wrote:

Okay.. getting close to 600 posts not counting the 200 deleted posts... Waiting for the next thread titled "What Kind of Better Things Do Martials Need?"

I just discovered Path of War not too long ago. This stuff is the bomb.

I also started using Path of war not too long ago and I can't like the system, the whole idea of preparing maneuvers kills it for me.

Yeah, unfortunately, while the book's heart is in the right place, the actual execution feels corny and contrived.


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^That was sort of my impression of it as well.

These are all attempts at addressing the underlying issue: straight martial classes are lacking the expansiveness and options of caster classes at higher levels.

That's fine! That's where creativity gets engaged!

I see no problem with home-brewing solutions, or 3PP, in order to have a more enjoyable gaming experience.


Bluenose wrote:
Meager Rolmug wrote:

My 2 cents worth: Fighter is one of the weaker classes at levels beyond mid and tends to be a trap for inexperienced players who get sucked in by its lone abilities to OVER-SPECIALIZE. Even a well built versatile fighter becomes too dependent on magical help either from allies or magic items after a while...even while having to spend alot on his weapons.

That said i would hate to change the class more than just a bit here and there...there is a value to having an easy to run class for new players who at times can enjoy doing more damage than anyone else or someone who doesn't want to work too hard while trying to enjoy themselves.

I'm not sure that a class that's easy to run for new players should also be one that is weak and tends to be a trap. It's the sort of thing that leads to people feeling disappointed, sometimes with the entire concept of tabletop RPGs. I've seen it a couple of locally with people I know joining an experienced PathFinder group that plays locally and finding after three or four sessions that the Fighter or Rogue they were told was a good class to play was not only practically superfluous but was also quite boring. And they won't play anything "D&D-like" as a result.

That's why i suggested the fixes that get rid of the trap aspect.


Otherwhere wrote:

^That was sort of my impression of it as well.

These are all attempts at addressing the underlying issue: straight martial classes are lacking the expansiveness and options of caster classes at higher levels.

That's fine! That's where creativity gets engaged!

I see no problem with home-brewing solutions, or 3PP, in order to have a more enjoyable gaming experience.

In regards to Path of War, I've found that Stamina+Book of Martial action works better for the fighters in terms of not feeling like a vancian martial.


Malwing wrote:
...Book of Martial action ...

?


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Malwing wrote:
Otherwhere wrote:

^That was sort of my impression of it as well.

These are all attempts at addressing the underlying issue: straight martial classes are lacking the expansiveness and options of caster classes at higher levels.

That's fine! That's where creativity gets engaged!

I see no problem with home-brewing solutions, or 3PP, in order to have a more enjoyable gaming experience.

In regards to Path of War, I've found that Stamina+Book of Martial action works better for the fighters in terms of not feeling like a vancian martial.

I prefer always-on feats and abilities for martials, and greatly dislike the move towards giving every damn class in Pathfinder some sort of expendable pool on which its strongest abilities depend. Not having to "prepare stances" (bleeargh!) is a step in the right direction, but basing everything off of a pool still leaves me wanting more.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Everyone having pools, and pools having recharge mechanics, annoy the heck out of me, too. Depending on the abilities tied to the pools, it becomes more about metagaming your pool then the abilities the pool actually has!...

Recharge mechanics for the maneuver system have always been the wonkiest and hardest to deal with part of that system of War.

On the other hand, I've always loved Stances. They just seem so appropriate.

==Aelryinth


I say let the Iron Heroes Executioner and other classes be used in Pathfinder.
Executioner is basically a different way to do the slayer with a grit pool.


Book of Martial Action is a product that introduces a martial pool of points that powers Martial techniques. Its almost identical to stamina, so similar that when it came out I just equated one to the other. Its not as far reaching as Path of War Maneuvers but I've found some busted combinations with other feats. Overall its been a ton of fun.

I understand pool points taking over the game being annoying but the way I see it, you either get a resource to spend or don't, and look how much good not having a resource to spend has done for Fighters and Rogues. If you want power and nothing to give for it then apparently Pathfinder gets wonky. I'm just thankful that Path of War and Stamina recharges basically between fights instead of being a per day situation.


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Malwing wrote:
I understand pool points taking over the game being annoying but the way I see it, you either get a resource to spend or don't, and look how much good not having a resource to spend has done for Fighters and Rogues. If you want power and nothing to give for it then apparently Pathfinder gets wonky.

This is a Pathfinder/Paizo problem, not a problem with the actual design space.

Personally my preferred design space is giving martials a handful of capabilities roughly on par with equal level magic, usable at will.

Casters get diversity, martials get endurance.


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kyrt-ryder wrote:
Malwing wrote:
I understand pool points taking over the game being annoying but the way I see it, you either get a resource to spend or don't, and look how much good not having a resource to spend has done for Fighters and Rogues. If you want power and nothing to give for it then apparently Pathfinder gets wonky.

This is a Pathfinder/Paizo problem, not a problem with the actual design space.

Personally my preferred design space is giving martials a handful of capabilities roughly on par with equal level magic, usable at will.

Casters get diversity, martials get endurance.

That's not balance though.

Something you'll observe and soemthing I noticed recently is that groups adventuring time is based largely on the smallest resource pool available depending on the importance of that particular pool to group success.

In the case of one game I'm in I noticed this was because of our Oracle's spells. The group had no means of HP recovery outside of their limited amount and thus we would hunker down and refresh even though every person was a caster of some form.

Does this mean the Oracle is OP?

No.

It means that kind of design is largely meaningless in a space where a group will usually only stay active through the smallest most important resource pool, be it spell slots, ability uses, or hit points.

Making something "at-will" only serves to keep it as a staple bread and butter option that will not factor hard into group decisions which is tricky to balance correctly.


My own experience says otherwise Tark, the reason being that the martials don't have these sorts of abilities now.

I give them a few really freaking awesome things they can do as often as they like. [In addition to Full Attack/Charge spam, or possibly in conjunction with them] whereas casters have a TON of different ones they can use depending on the situation... but are restricted in uses per day.

In actual play experience it's quite balanced.


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TarkXT wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Malwing wrote:
I understand pool points taking over the game being annoying but the way I see it, you either get a resource to spend or don't, and look how much good not having a resource to spend has done for Fighters and Rogues. If you want power and nothing to give for it then apparently Pathfinder gets wonky.

This is a Pathfinder/Paizo problem, not a problem with the actual design space.

Personally my preferred design space is giving martials a handful of capabilities roughly on par with equal level magic, usable at will.

Casters get diversity, martials get endurance.

That's not balance though.

Something you'll observe and soemthing I noticed recently is that groups adventuring time is based largely on the smallest resource pool available depending on the importance of that particular pool to group success.

In the case of one game I'm in I noticed this was because of our Oracle's spells. The group had no means of HP recovery outside of their limited amount and thus we would hunker down and refresh even though every person was a caster of some form.

Does this mean the Oracle is OP?

No.

It means that kind of design is largely meaningless in a space where a group will usually only stay active through the smallest most important resource pool, be it spell slots, ability uses, or hit points.

Making something "at-will" only serves to keep it as a staple bread and butter option that will not factor hard into group decisions which is tricky to balance correctly.

Pretty much. Basically having zero resource is wonky in Pathfinder because the rest of the game exists. When I work on homebrew things for martials some kind of resource is discarded. Action economy and quick-renewing point pools like stamina are my favorites but Path of War does virtually use the latter, I'm just not too keen on this slot situation and the nebulous way it recovers.

To put things in perspective, products like Spheres of Power are out there that has limited at-will magic but one thing people can be wary about is that at-will magic sounds broken. And there are Wizard clone classes that can cast at-will but wind up being 1/2 BAB classes. Also Sorcerer clones that spend action economy instead of spell slots and have much fewer spells known that are pretty much broken. At-will magic is a delicate thing to balance and having at-will effectively magic is even harder if it's attached to classes that already deal more persistent damage than anyone.

Another thing I noticed is that everyone wants to do stuff even at the cost of running out of fuel, so if you have a caster with limited resources, that's how long your day is. Whenever I make a competent combatant its the same story. We come across a horde of mooks and I suggest not wasting spells because my Fighter guy can kill them all without spending resources or taking much damage and we might need the spell later. Spells still get cast because nobody feels right just sitting there drinking tea while the Fighter mows down a small army so that you can cast an actually important spell. And that guy is going to run out of spells eventually because of this so now everyone has to rest because those spells are important.


kyrt-ryder wrote:

My own experience says otherwise Tark, the reason being that the martials don't have these sorts of abilities now.

I give them a few really freaking awesome things they can do as often as they like. [In addition to Full Attack/Charge spam, or possibly in conjunction with them] whereas casters have a TON of different ones they can use depending on the situation... but are restricted in uses per day.

In actual play experience it's quite balanced.

I think you may be misunderstanding my point.

From your observation at what point have you noticed this group stopping the adventuring day and refreshing resources?


the secret fire wrote:

I prefer always-on feats and abilities for martials, and greatly dislike the move towards giving every damn class in Pathfinder some sort of expendable pool on which its strongest abilities depend. Not having to "prepare stances" (bleeargh!) is a step in the right direction, but basing everything off of a pool still leaves me wanting more.

Not being able to prepare is part of the problem. You either need to greatly increase the "always on" toolkit or allow a much greater menu to pick from and then "prepare" a narrow pool. Sort of like Brawler and martial flexibility, but with such a narrow class idea.

I think things are much better if you modify Combat Style feats like Rangers have (one of the only difference making ways to grant feats to a martial), but allow the player to change combat style. Maybe a fighter gets 2 combat styles at once and chances them out, Ranger Paladin and Rogue gets 1, Monk gets 1 and the unarmed style, Barbarian gets none because they rely on combat styles. Extrapolate to non-core classes from there. Maybe even say you "know" a certain number of combat styles and can "prepare" a certain number. So a fighter "prepares" 2 styles a day but knows them all, ranger and paladin knows and uses 1 style, rogue maybe knows 2 and uses one, monk must used unarmed and can choose one other, etc.

The concept that the critical core feats any martial needs to use have prereqs that completely bar entry while spells don't have the same requirement is silly.


I just stick with stamina and martial actions. Stamina refreshes enough where it might as well be at-will and just serves as a gauge to prevent martials from nova-ing. Also stamina kinda feels right, like you're pushing your limits to do something amazing and taking a breather so you can do more, as opposed to this per day nonsense that a lot of martial abilities have.


Malwing wrote:
I just stick with stamina and martial actions. Stamina refreshes enough where it might as well be at-will and just serves as a gauge to prevent martials from nova-ing. Also stamina kinda feels right, like you're pushing your limits to do something amazing and taking a breather so you can do more, as opposed to this per day nonsense that a lot of martial abilities have.

It's kind of why I like the maneuver system as well though it has a few flaws to work out (some maneuvers fail the bag of cats test and others are flat out broken) the action economay is such that you ahve to pick and choose with care.

In a lot of ways a slightly altered Psychic Warrior might come very close to an ideal for me.


TarkXT wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

My own experience says otherwise Tark, the reason being that the martials don't have these sorts of abilities now.

I give them a few really freaking awesome things they can do as often as they like. [In addition to Full Attack/Charge spam, or possibly in conjunction with them] whereas casters have a TON of different ones they can use depending on the situation... but are restricted in uses per day.

In actual play experience it's quite balanced.

I think you may be misunderstanding my point.

From your observation at what point have you noticed this group stopping the adventuring day and refreshing resources?

The same point they always would have. The difference is that every time they fight the martial actually has awesome s*%@ rather than 'I charge for marginal damage' or 'I full attack... again.'

Basically at all levels the martial's schtick [a group of perhaps 4-5 valuable options] levels up with him to be comparable to the caster's very best spells. Usable at will.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

My own experience says otherwise Tark, the reason being that the martials don't have these sorts of abilities now.

I give them a few really freaking awesome things they can do as often as they like. [In addition to Full Attack/Charge spam, or possibly in conjunction with them] whereas casters have a TON of different ones they can use depending on the situation... but are restricted in uses per day.

In actual play experience it's quite balanced.

I think you may be misunderstanding my point.

From your observation at what point have you noticed this group stopping the adventuring day and refreshing resources?

The same point they always would have. The difference is that every time they fight the martial actually has awesome s~!$ rather than 'I charge for marginal damage' or 'I full attack... again.'

Basically at all levels the martial's schtick [a group of perhaps 4-5 valuable options] levels up with him to be comparable to the caster's very best spells. Usable at will.

Okay, now how often do those martials get to use those "at-will" abilities versus how quickly the others run out of resources and the group is forced to refresh?


Malwing wrote:
Another thing I noticed is that everyone wants to do stuff even at the cost of running out of fuel, so if you have a caster with limited resources, that's how long your day is. Whenever I make a competent combatant its the same story. We come across a horde of mooks and I suggest not wasting spells because my Fighter guy can kill them all without spending resources or taking much damage and we might need the spell later. Spells still get cast because nobody feels right just sitting there drinking tea while the Fighter mows down a small army so that you can cast an actually important spell. And that guy is going to run out of spells eventually because of this so now everyone has to rest because those spells are important.

Which is the reason both 4E & 5E gave casters combat spells they can do all day long. As long as those abilities are low end enough to not be dominating and effective enough the caster feels like he's doing some, it's much more satisfying then standing there drinking tea.


TarkXT wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

My own experience says otherwise Tark, the reason being that the martials don't have these sorts of abilities now.

I give them a few really freaking awesome things they can do as often as they like. [In addition to Full Attack/Charge spam, or possibly in conjunction with them] whereas casters have a TON of different ones they can use depending on the situation... but are restricted in uses per day.

In actual play experience it's quite balanced.

I think you may be misunderstanding my point.

From your observation at what point have you noticed this group stopping the adventuring day and refreshing resources?

The same point they always would have. The difference is that every time they fight the martial actually has awesome s~!$ rather than 'I charge for marginal damage' or 'I full attack... again.'

Basically at all levels the martial's schtick [a group of perhaps 4-5 valuable options] levels up with him to be comparable to the caster's very best spells. Usable at will.

Okay, now how often do those martials get to use those "at-will" abilities versus how quickly the others run out of resources and the group is forced to refresh?

It's about the same.

In practice it could sort of be viewed as a Battle Sorcerer who never runs out of their very top level spells [but lacks the flexibility and versatility of lower level spells.]


Malwing wrote:
Another thing I noticed is that everyone wants to do stuff even at the cost of running out of fuel, so if you have a caster with limited resources, that's how long your day is. Whenever I make a competent combatant its the same story. We come across a horde of mooks and I suggest not wasting spells because my Fighter guy can kill them all without spending resources or taking much damage and we might need the spell later. Spells still get cast because nobody feels right just sitting there drinking tea while the Fighter mows down a small army so that you can cast an actually important spell. And that guy is going to run out of spells eventually because of this so now everyone has to rest because those spells are important.

This is totally how I play my primary casters [Wizards in particular], - especially at low levels - in a party with melee combatants [not I didn't specify martials, though often at low levels well built martials do this job quite well.]

S/he casts a single spell if needed- the one that seems most appropriate to clinch the encounter for the beatsticks- then kicks back and drinks tea/alcohol and munches on snacks, or pulls out a good book, or heckles the combatants.

"Put your back into it old chap!"


*reads replies, too lazy to hit reply button*

Yeah the maneuver system is a bit clunky. But I honestly don't mind that at all. What matters to me is having a martial character that does something other than just trying to get lucky enough to full attack every round. Maneuvers give you something fun to do that have a meaningful effect on the battlefield other than just HP damage. And STANCES are the bees knees. That 3rd level Golden Lion stance completely changes the dynamics of flanking. And that's just ONE of them.

No product is perfect. But to me, Path of War material is about fourteen steps ahead of the design mechanics of the Fighter and Rogue.


thejeff wrote:
Malwing wrote:
Another thing I noticed is that everyone wants to do stuff even at the cost of running out of fuel, so if you have a caster with limited resources, that's how long your day is. Whenever I make a competent combatant its the same story. We come across a horde of mooks and I suggest not wasting spells because my Fighter guy can kill them all without spending resources or taking much damage and we might need the spell later. Spells still get cast because nobody feels right just sitting there drinking tea while the Fighter mows down a small army so that you can cast an actually important spell. And that guy is going to run out of spells eventually because of this so now everyone has to rest because those spells are important.
Which is the reason both 4E & 5E gave casters combat spells they can do all day long. As long as those abilities are low end enough to not be dominating and effective enough the caster feels like he's doing some, it's much more satisfying then standing there drinking tea.

How it works out in my games is that I allow a lot of third party content that makes for broken martials and pseudo martials. I'm talking about getting a grappling huge sized creatures from 60ft away without magic, increasing saves by BAB and blinding people that attempt to scry them kind of stuff. I have a lot of broken spells but players don't have access to them until they find it in game, on a scroll or book or somethings. Some of the obviously stupid powerful martial stuff gets put in along the same lines. But the point is that martials have a lot of tools to the point where casters are actually pretty much glass cannons if they are within line of sight or even scrying someone that has enough levels while casters mostly have to find their power creep. To ease this I gave casters magic equipment that have at-will spells and enhancement bonuses. They're mostly dumb things that just deal damage but there's some third party things called Aiperon Staves that help round it out. Functionally this allows casters to save important spells for real fights and real problems and not have to sit behind and drink tea while the real fun is had.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

My own experience says otherwise Tark, the reason being that the martials don't have these sorts of abilities now.

I give them a few really freaking awesome things they can do as often as they like. [In addition to Full Attack/Charge spam, or possibly in conjunction with them] whereas casters have a TON of different ones they can use depending on the situation... but are restricted in uses per day.

In actual play experience it's quite balanced.

I think you may be misunderstanding my point.

From your observation at what point have you noticed this group stopping the adventuring day and refreshing resources?

The same point they always would have. The difference is that every time they fight the martial actually has awesome s~!$ rather than 'I charge for marginal damage' or 'I full attack... again.'

Basically at all levels the martial's schtick [a group of perhaps 4-5 valuable options] levels up with him to be comparable to the caster's very best spells. Usable at will.

Okay, now how often do those martials get to use those "at-will" abilities versus how quickly the others run out of resources and the group is forced to refresh?

It's about the same.

In practice it could sort of be viewed as a Battle Sorcerer who never runs out of their very top level spells [but lacks the flexibility and versatility of lower level spells.]

About the same amount of times they'd blow through their limited resources you'd say?


Yes Tark, it's about the same, the biggest difference is that when the Sorcerer is reverting to one of his lower level [no Sorcerer can cast a top level spell every round of every combat every day, perhaps top and second to top level will manage most days] the Martial is using one of his schticks at top level.

The lack of limited resources is more theoretical than practical, but it does come in really handy those times the adventuring day is forcefully stretched beyond its usual ken.


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1 Ki point gives you +4 AC for 1 round

1 first level spell gives you +4 AC for 1 hour/level

This is the scope of the disparity even when martials are given a resource pool. Granted potions of mage armor exist. But that just leads back to the fact that martials have to pay for what casters get for using a tiny fraction of their daily resources.

Casters can even get bracers of armor half price with a single feat. That's an extra 12.5k gold of effective character wealth saved by 10th level (for +5 bracers of armor). That's not even counting the other wondrous items crafted like a Cloak of Resistance or headband/belt.

That right there is probably a 40% increase in effective wealth AND there are SIX other magic items slots that can be filled at half price with a crafting feat.

Just for an example:

+2 Amulet of natural armor... add another 4k to the savings..
Robe of Components... another 2.5k saved
Spectacles of Understanding 1.5k saved
BOOTS OF SPEED BECAUSE YOU GOTTA GO FAST 6k saved
Gloves of Storing because you need to hide your feminine beauty products somewhere 5k saved

That's going to amount to an approximate 80% increase in wealth by 10th level, easily leaving you enough funds for scrolls, wands, metamagic rods, rings and whatever else you need.

And to add insult to injury, Hedge Magician is a trait that shaves off an extra 5% off the cost of creating wondrous items. No feat/trait combo available to martials delivers that kind of raw power increase. This is just one aspect of what makes non-casters inferior to casters. YES they need better things.

This is Rant-Man signing off


I'm pretty much in kyrt's camp in terms of the über-martial abilities I tend to hand out. I do everything I can to keep them strictly passive or at-will, in large part because I want them to feel like something other than casting spells. In the interest of furthering the discussion as to how this might work, here is a small subset of the added/changed feats for fighters in my game:

Quote:

- Combat Expertise: can trade +1/-1 up to full BAB at any level. This is a circumstance bonus (stacks with everything) which only works vs. melee attacks (combat)

- prereq: none (was Int 13)

- Hold the Point: attack penalties from fighting defensively do not apply to Attacks of Opportunity (combat) [NEW]
- prereq: Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise

- Celerity: you may make unlimited Attacks of Opportunity per round
- prereq: Dex 16, Fighter or Rogue 6th, Combat Reflexes

- Choke-Up: reach weapons can be used to attack adjacent targets (combat)
- prereq: Fighter 5th, Weapon Training in Polearms or Spears

Take the feats listed above and you've got yourself a pretty nifty at-will AoO battlefield control ability (it helps that I give fighters bonus combat feats at every level). Add in combat patrol and/or lunge, and it gets frikkin big. I don't think it's unbalancing compared to magic, and it fits (imo) with the martial trope of being able to fend off essentially unlimited hordes of mooks.


You pile your stuff up behind too many prerequisites [as separate component feats that require book-digging and careful character planning] for my tastes Secret Fire, but the principle is similar.


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The problem is that, Paizo has shown that things even remotely awesome that are traditionally seen as just awesome martial prowess, have to be spells. Look at the Magus spell list. Force strike? That should have been part of Power Attack or a feat after PA. (G) Bladed Dash? That is a common swordsman trope. Bed of steel? Because the guys who were armor all the time dont get this comfortable in armor ever...

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