thistle arrows what does the discription......


Rules Questions


mean? what does it do ?does it do say 1d8 up to 6 rounds or does it do 1d8 points of dmg over the 1d6 rounds?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

It is good practice to give the source of the item(s) you're asking about. In this case, Thistle Arrows are from the Pathfinder Player's Companion: Adventurer's Armory. The section where they are found is prefaced "This book updates several items from the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting to the Pathfinder RPG rules.", so they likely also appear in this earlier source. I do note that the arrows do not appear in the weapons table (although others, specifically the whistling arrows, do)

Thistle Arrow wrote:

Thistle Arrow: Crafted from the thistles of a poisonous plant, these barbed arrows deal damage as a bleed effect

for 1d6 rounds after a hit.

What this is telling us is that the damage these arrows do is a bleed effect, not regular damage. Instead of taking damage immediately when struck, the target is give a certain amount of bleed. On the target's turn, he takes that damage first thing. Some people roll once and apply that amount of bleed every turn that the bleed lasts, while others roll the die again for each turn of bleed. There's a FAQ that says the second method is the intended one. Ask your DM how they're going to handle it.

Check the bleed rules, but things to note are

1) Bleed doesn't usually stack. If you hit a target with two of these, it's only going to take the worst and/or longest lasting of the two.

2) Healing magic (and/or a successful heal check) stops further bleed damage.

3) Some creatures are immune to bleed and some items can negate it.


Hum.
So is that only the listed 1d8 damage. or would modifiers such as deadly aim, str from a compound bow, enhancment bonuses etc raise the amount of bleed per turn?b

Scarab Sages

I would say that a mundane item should not be more powerful than a +2 enchantment (Wounding) so I think it should deal 1 point of bleed damage for 1d6 rounds, replacing the total damage of the arrow. This may seem harsh, but bleed bypasses DR and forces concentration checks, so the arrows would still have their uses.

Wounding wrote:
This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons. A wounding weapon deals 1 point of bleed damage when it hits a creature. Multiple hits from a wounding weapon increase the bleed damage. Bleeding creatures take the bleed damage at the start of their turns. Bleeding can be stopped by a successful DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage. A critical hit does not multiply the bleed damage. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to the bleed damage dealt by this weapon.
As for RAW, I honestly haven't a clue. I could see it being argued that:
  • The arrow deals normal damage for an arrow, but in bleed damage for 1d6 rounds (1dX + str of bow + misc)
  • The arrow replaces the weapon damage of the arrow with 1 bleed damage that lasts 1d6 rounds (1 + str of bow + misc)
  • The arrow replaces all damage with 1 bleed damage that lasts 1d6 rounds (1)
  • The arrow deals normal piercing(?) damage (1dX + str + misc), plus 1 point of bleed damage for 1d6 rounds (1)
  • The arrow deals it's total damage, converted into bleed damage, over the course of 1d6 rounds ([1dX + str of bow + misc]/n where n is the rounds rolled)
  • The arrow causes an argument between the player and DM when shot, and everyone involved takes bleed damage until the argument is over or rocks fall (rocks fall)


Wounding is a different beast than this arrow. wounding and the arrow have very different uses and ranges
I think they both have places
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As for the RAW I can only see it as
1d8 bleed for 1d6 rounds (rolled each round)
or
Total damage per round for 1d6 rounds.

Nothing states it does 1. just only specifies damage. Not weapon damage.. so that implies total arrow damage I think..

which could get quite messy if one speced for this or had abundant ammo.


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Thistle arrows were ported over poorly from the old Campaign Setting. Here is the original wording:

Quote:
Thistle Arrow: These arrows are a specialty of the Ekujae shamans, who craft the arrowheads out of the thistles of a toxic plant that most creatures find highly caustic. They deal normal damage but then become embedded in the wound and deal an additional 1 point of damage each round for 1d6 rounds from their irritating sap. Creatures immune to poison are immune to this extra damage. A creature can remove an embedded thistle arrow as a move action without provoking attacks of opportunity, but doing so deals an additional 1d3 points of damage as the thorny barbs are pulled free. A DC 12 Heal check (made as a standard action) can pull free a thistle arrow's head without dealing any additional damage. A single thistle arrow costs 1 gp.

Here is a previous thread on the issue.


Joana nailed it.

Bleed 1, for 1D6 rounds.


Ah neat porting quote thanks. The whole text helps a lot.
Though they probably should have ported the whole thing considering what RAW implies for some folks.


Zwordsman wrote:

Ah neat porting quote thanks. The whole text helps a lot.

Though they probably should have ported the whole thing considering what RAW implies for some folks.

Yeah, I like most of Paizo's work but sometimes I run across something that just makes me scratch my head.

I mean, as written in the ported version of the item is essentially unusable. If you don't have the page-space to do something properly maybe you should just hold off and do it later.

Grand Lodge

Note: While not explicitly an "update" for the Thistle Arrow, the Alchemy Manual has an item called a Bleeding Arrow:

Quote:
This sharpened hollow tube looks like the narrow proboscis of some giant insect, but it actually comes from a carnivorous plant. A bleeding arrow deals normal damage when it hits a creature and deals 1 point of bleed damage. A critical hit does not multiply the bleed damage.

A lot more expensive, at 160 gp, but a complete rules item. Probably because the bleed doesn't contain any riders, either as poison, nor with a duration limit.


Lost In Limbo wrote:


Yeah, I like most of Paizo's work but sometimes I run across something that just makes me scratch my head.

I mean, as written in the ported version of the item is essentially unusable. If you don't have the page-space to do something properly maybe you should just hold off and do it later.

WEIRD NOTE.

So.. Why does the Thistle arrow from Adv Armory say bleed damage. but that original says poison?
Does anyone who has Adv Armory know if what is on d20 is the full text from the book? I don't have it.

As it stands it actually looks more like those items are seperate entities, but just the same name. What was the old campaign setting? it was a pathfinder campaign setting or a 3.5?

I'll have to read that linked forum later.. as it stands it is looking very weird and possibly just a naming mess up?

In all cases I'd rather use the "poison" version that does damage pulling out and ddoes the damage of the arrow (and is cheaper I think). pin cushion in style.
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It seems still usuable. However.. the power is considerably scaled up.
Since one coudl argue "raw" of that listing as different from the original. (though I rather hope not)

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As an interesting note.. Thistle arrow is 1gp. Bleeding arrow is 350gp
Sure the bleeding wont' stop with the bleeding arrow..
but I would never pay for a bleeding arrow over a thistle arrow


Zwordsman wrote:
What was the old campaign setting? it was a pathfinder campaign setting or a 3.5?

The Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting was the original setting book for Golarion. It was published under the OGL before the PfRPG rules were complete, for a 3.5 Golarion.

It was later replaced by The Inner Sea World Guide, published under PfRPG rules.

The thistle arrow in Adventurer's Armory was listed under this text:

Quote:

Converting Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting Items

This book updates several items from the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting to the Pathfinder RPG rules. Items not listed may be used without conversion.

So, yes, it was explicitly designed as the PfRPG version of the original thistle arrow. Think of it as an errata document, where they don't reprint the entire text, just tell you what to strike out, add, or change.


Zwordsman wrote:
So.. Why does the Thistle arrow from Adv Armory say bleed damage. but that original says poison?

IIRC, bleed damage was invented in PfRPG and didn't exist as a term when the Campaign Setting was published. I can't find it in a search of d20srd.org at any rate.

Zwordsman wrote:
Does anyone who has Adv Armory know if what is on d20 is the full text from the book? I don't have it.

The exact text is "Crafted from the thistles of a poisonous plant, these barbed arrows deal damage as a bleed effect for 1d6 rounds after a hit."


cool beans thanks for the info drops!

I think I like the poison version arrows.. but I'm a poison lover haha. Biased.

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