Mastering the Elements: N. Jolly's guide to the Pathfinder Kineticist


Advice

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Shadow Lodge

Not elements, simple blasts.

Water and air have both a physical and energy blast, but you only get one blast when you select an element. This means if you have one of these elements either as a primary or expanded element, and haven't re-selected it at level 7, you have more simple blast options than you can actually select.

Selecting an extra simple blast does not expand your options as much as adding another element, but still has two possible benefits:

1) To increase the variety of infusions you can apply to a blast, since the infusions for water and air are about half split between their energy and physical blasts.

2) To give you more options for damage types. This is especially important once you get to composite blasts since only certain combinations of simple blasts give you a composite blast option; earth-cold, earth-electricity, fire-cold, fire-electricity, cold-electricity and air-water all lack composites. If you want those damage options you're giving up your composite blast.

As far as I know there's no way to do this, but I have homebrewed an "Extra Simple Blast" feat as it seems like a fair trade.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
Weirdo wrote:
Not elements, simple blasts.

Unfortunately, as you point out, there's no current way to get the additional blasts associated with known elements. The class abilities are for Utility wild talents, and the Extra Wild Talent feat specifically excludes blast talents.

It wouldn't surprise me, however, if it were a feat option in the upcoming Occult Origins.

That said, I'd also expect that if such a feat were available, it would be at a reduced level (two to four levels below the other blast for that element) or with additional burn. Kineticists have some built in weaknesses (facing monsters with energy immunity or DR), and the design seems to have been very careful about not giving too many ways to cover those weaknesses kinetically. (Fire is the biggest exception here, but I suspect fire immune creatures are more common that others.) Providing an elemental kineticist energy OR physical at only the cost of a feat is, I suspect, probably too powerful.


There is also the fact that you can, fairly easily, pick options that diversify your blasts.

If you have air (lightning), you could pick air (physical), water (physical), or earth (physical), and there by get an option that allows you to side step some of the problems you might have encountered before.

But if you picked water (ice) and fire (....fire...), and you end up against an ice devil... what can I say. You picked two energy options, knowing that there are creatures that have multiple energy resistences/immunities out there.

The main thing the class gives you to respond to such threats is to give you the chance to diversify your options at level 7, where enemies might start getting tougher defenses. And staying with the same element, water and air get two different blasts, and fire and earth get options that side step a lot of the common problems they face.


It also would be very powerful to get extra simple blasts as a feat or talent when you consider composite blasts. Now I can take geo/geo for metal, and also pick up fire for magma blast and an energy attack? Nah. Too much for one talent. Now, a home brew class that gets all simple blasts over time, at the cost of maybe elemental overflow and buffer? Sure I could see that. But give up something real if you want that much diversity, you probably will have extra talent and feat spaces at the end of your build anyway.


N. Jolly wrote:


It does mean all air blast, not just the talent air blast, a lot of words are used more than absolutely needed in the class description. This is more for those who want to branch out into other elements.

I think what he is saying is that it was clarified to work with electric blasts and the things associated with that as well.

Mark Seifter wrote:
Xelaaredn wrote:
Just because I know its going to come up in my game, I'm correct in thinking that Air's Reach only applies to the air blast and things dealing with it (such as Plasma Blast), and not with the electric blast and its combinations (such as Charged Water Blast). Am I correct there?
It's all [air] blasts, all blasts of the air element. Use it on all your air stuff, electricity included!

That's from the product discussion page. I was looking through your guide and saw the way you had that worded and wasn't sure if you thought it worked the way I thought it did originally as well. I'm thinking from your comment that it isn't, but you might want to clarify in your guide for those that think it only works with the actual air blast.

Honestly, I was glad to be wrong, makes a solo Aerokineticist a much better option in my opinion at least.

Silver Crusade

Xelaaredn wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:


It does mean all air blast, not just the talent air blast, a lot of words are used more than absolutely needed in the class description. This is more for those who want to branch out into other elements.

I think what he is saying is that it was clarified to work with electric blasts and the things associated with that as well.

Mark Seifter wrote:
Xelaaredn wrote:
Just because I know its going to come up in my game, I'm correct in thinking that Air's Reach only applies to the air blast and things dealing with it (such as Plasma Blast), and not with the electric blast and its combinations (such as Charged Water Blast). Am I correct there?
It's all [air] blasts, all blasts of the air element. Use it on all your air stuff, electricity included!

That's from the product discussion page. I was looking through your guide and saw the way you had that worded and wasn't sure if you thought it worked the way I thought it did originally as well. I'm thinking from your comment that it isn't, but you might want to clarify in your guide for those that think it only works with the actual air blast.

Honestly, I was glad to be wrong, makes a solo Aerokineticist a much better option in my opinion at least.

Yeah sorry, that's what I meant, since electric blast is listed as an air blast. I'm glad too that's how it works.

Shadow Lodge

Shiroi wrote:
It also would be very powerful to get extra simple blasts as a feat or talent when you consider composite blasts. Now I can take geo/geo for metal, and also pick up fire for magma blast and an energy attack? Nah. Too much for one talent.

My homebrew feat gives you access to another simple blast from an element you have, not an element you don't have. As such the application is currently just for those with water or air as either a primary or expanded element - though if more simple blasts are introduced it may be useful for more builds.

Also, having more composite blasts doesn't give you any more advantages than having more simple blasts - the issues are still variety of damage type and applicable infusions. A hydro/aerokineticist with wind, cold, and electricity simple blasts may get both the blizzard and thunderstorm blast but the difference for the two is cold vs electricity damage and cold vs electric infusions, just like the simple blasts.

TomG wrote:
Kineticists have some built in weaknesses (facing monsters with energy immunity or DR), and the design seems to have been very careful about not giving too many ways to cover those weaknesses kinetically. (Fire is the biggest exception here, but I suspect fire immune creatures are more common that others.) Providing an elemental kineticist energy OR physical at only the cost of a feat is, I suspect, probably too powerful.
lemeres wrote:

There is also the fact that you can, fairly easily, pick options that diversify your blasts.

If you have air (lightning), you could pick air (physical), water (physical), or earth (physical), and there by get an option that allows you to side step some of the problems you might have encountered before.

But if you picked water (ice) and fire (....fire...), and you end up against an ice devil... what can I say. You picked two energy options, knowing that there are creatures that have multiple energy resistances/immunities out there.

Yes, you certainly can pick options that give you some decent diversity in damage type, even without giving up your composite. Air-electricity, water-cold, air-cold, water-electricity, and air- earth- or water-fire give you a physical blast, energy blast, and physical composite. And these are not otherwise weak elemental choices. So being able to take cold, fire, and air by spending a feat doe not bypass any major limitations as TomG suggests. It just means that you can use cold and fire without being screwed over when fighting an ice devil.

In fact, the major problem I have with the class currently is how easy it is to back yourself into a corner via your level 1 blast selection. If you take a cold blast at level 1, you get no composite blast from taking either earth or fire as your expanded element at 7. I hope that more blast options from future sourcebooks, as well as the ability to get extra simple blasts, will help with this.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

Okay, to clarify: When I say one can't get additional simple blasts with the same element, I'm referring to *other than with the expanded element at levels 7 or 15*. I thought this was understood through context, but in reading some responses, I'm not so sure.

In addition, I understood weirdo's point as implicitly being about lower lever characters (especially pre-7 with an expanded element).

For example, a level 5 hydrokineticist with both cold and water simple blasts is, I think too powerful for a simple feat cost. (Yes, we're talking a rules change here, so a bit off topic for the thread, but bear with me.) Without play-testing, it's my suspicion that any additional simple blasts for the same element (at just a feat cost) would need to be hampered slightly, whether through a burn cost (1?) or reduced damage (as 2 to 4 levels lower?). Without some additional cost, I think it is too easy to bypass the limitations purposefully placed on a kineticist.

Anyway, as I said this is a (homebrew|design) discussion, and thus off-topic for the thread. I'd be happy to continue ranting in someone else's thread, but feel I should probably leave the focus here on Jolly's fine guide.

Silver Crusade

I don't mind the discussion here, and I agree with Weirdo that an additional simple blast wouldn't be game breaking. I think it's a bit of a flaw of design to not include a composite blast for every elemental combination (come on, fire/electric would be SICK like Pikkon's Thunder Flare blast from DBZ), and the ability to remove your chance to get a composite blast through poor planning just doesn't sit well with me. While I could see reducing it by 1d6 or so, I don't even think that's needed. It's generally just giving a touch and regular AC target, and as stated, it makes sure someone's not worthless against certain foes.

As an aside, I myself have decided Pure Flame infusion ignores fire resistance/immunity, which to me makes it so that Fire can continue to do what it needs to without being hammered for being fire. I should ask if anyone in the thread is interested in a few ideas I had for the class, although I might talk with some 3P people and see if we can coordinate on me putting out a short splat for other ideas I've had for this class, since there's a lot of design space here that I could mess around with.

Shadow Lodge

I'd love to see that, Jolly!


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

Some of those holes can (and should, I think) be filled by using the kineticist's array of available feats and spending power. A bow, for instance would go a long way toward filling the physical damage gap, and the kineticist can utilize some of the ranged feats already anyway. (PBS, Precise Shot) Not as flashy or cinematic, but does require a bit of diversity of thinking to cover the shortfalls, as it should be.

I'll add that I've only played the kineticist at level 7 and below so far, so my views of mid- and high-level play may be a bit skewed.

Silver Crusade

N. Jolly wrote:
As an aside, I myself have decided Pure Flame infusion ignores fire resistance/immunity, which to me makes it so that Fire can continue to do what it needs to without being hammered for being fire.

For four burn, not being able to use it until 15th level and using up your substance infusion (which could have been used for blinding the enemy for 3 burn if you got through the spell resistance), I would say having it able to bypass fire immunity is at least somewhat balanced. However, I'm not sure it should just completely go through the immunity since going through SR is still pretty good by itself. Maybe bring it to some amount of resistance that can't be brought lower (such as by effects like Searing Flame)? You made the conscious decision to go pure fire. I don't think you should be able to completely thumb your nose at enemies that are immune to fire.

Just to reiterate so my message isn't misconstrued: I'm all for giving fire a way to bypass immunity. However, I don't think they should be able to tell fire immune things to simply screw themselves. You are given other tools you can use (blinding) to work around it, and going pure flame was a decision you made for yourself. You shouldn't be able to just ignore the consequences of going that route. "That route" meaning having some of the best AoEs, having the only touch-AC composite blast of them all, and also being given exclusive right to a tool to bypass the biggest obstacle of touch-AC blasts: SR.


Aziraya Zhwan wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:
As an aside, I myself have decided Pure Flame infusion ignores fire resistance/immunity, which to me makes it so that Fire can continue to do what it needs to without being hammered for being fire.

For four burn, not being able to use it until 15th level and using up your substance infusion (which could have been used for blinding the enemy for 3 burn if you got through the spell resistance), I would say having it able to bypass fire immunity is at least somewhat balanced. However, I'm not sure it should just completely go through the immunity since going through SR is still pretty good by itself. Maybe bring it to some amount of resistance that can't be brought lower (such as by effects like Searing Flame)? You made the conscious decision to go pure fire. I don't think you should be able to completely thumb your nose at enemies that are immune to fire.

Just to reiterate so my message isn't misconstrued: I'm all for giving fire a way to bypass immunity. However, I don't think they should be able to tell fire immune things to simply screw themselves. You are given other tools you can use (blinding) to work around it, and going pure flame was a decision you made for yourself. You shouldn't be able to just ignore the consequences of going that route. "That route" meaning having some of the best AoEs, having the only touch-AC composite blast of them all, and also being given exclusive right to a tool to bypass the biggest obstacle of touch-AC blasts: SR.

At the same time...it comes at level 15.

You have had two chances to get another element by now. You could easily grab earth, and then magma up your preferred infusions as fire.

As Aziraya Zhwan said- you are the one that keeps on giving up chances to diversify. I can understand at level 7, since you have so few infusions, and you want the more powerful version of the thing you usually do...but at level 15?


I really, really, really love the Kineticist, and I find it's even playable. However, in my opinion... I think the Kineticist, even now, is in a 'beta' state, for my purposes. I think there are a few tweaks, or powers and options one could take to make it truly shine.

For example, a wild talent not unlike the Winter Witch's Unearthly Cold ability to partially bypass immunity/resistance. Resitance is lowered by a certain amount, and Immunity is treated as Resist 30 (and isn't lowered at all).

Or letting the Telekineticist levitate creatures. Make it have a save against a 1st level talent and SR, but let the Telekineticist levitate people. I consider the lack of levitation a very large failure on a thematic level, personally.

There's also a bunch of little things I would change, like letting a hydrokineticist/geokineticist make little objects out of earth/ice, such as sculptures, or flowers. Similar to this clip of Bobby Drake in the first X-men movie.

Or making a composite blast of each combination. Blue Flame could be spruced up in some other method instead of it's gimmick being the "only energy composite blast". Buffing the Aether composite blast would also be on my list of changes.


Tels wrote:

I really, really, really love the Kineticist, and I find it's even playable. However, in my opinion... I think the Kineticist, even now, is in a 'beta' state, for my purposes. I think there are a few tweaks, or powers and options one could take to make it truly shine.

For example, a wild talent not unlike the Winter Witch's Unearthly Cold ability to partially bypass immunity/resistance. Resitance is lowered by a certain amount, and Immunity is treated as Resist 30 (and isn't lowered at all).

Or letting the Telekineticist levitate creatures. Make it have a save against a 1st level talent and SR, but let the Telekineticist levitate people. I consider the lack of levitation a very large failure on a thematic level, personally.

There's also a bunch of little things I would change, like letting a hydrokineticist/geokineticist make little objects out of earth/ice, such as sculptures, or flowers. Similar to this clip of Bobby Drake in the first X-men movie.

Or making a composite blast of each combination. Blue Flame could be spruced up in some other method instead of it's gimmick being the "only energy composite blast". Buffing the Aether composite blast would also be on my list of changes.

Maybe I am missing something, but what does any of that have to do with a guide on how the final published class works?


Tels wrote:


Or letting the Telekineticist levitate creatures. Make it have a save against a 1st level talent and SR, but let the Telekineticist levitate people. I consider the lack of levitation a very large failure on a thematic level, personally.

+1. I find it annoying that I can't lift people, but can lift 3 tons of raw material, and have to "cheat" to lift people by having them step onto something I'm already levitating....

As for minor things (like an ice sculpture), I see no reason not to just allow that in game as part of (or an extension of) the basic kinesis of that element...

Skylancer4 wrote:
Maybe I am missing something, but what does any of that have to do with a guide on how the final published class works?

That's just how conversations work, even on forums. Half the posts on this forum have nothing to do with the topic, it's just conversation. Having an elitest attitude towards someone who is just conversing is detrimental to the social aspects of a forum though. If you don't like that someone is a bit off topic, but still in the same reference, just skip to the next post. It would of course be something else if he started posting about the latest Star Wars movie in the middle of the thread, but it is a related part of the conversation in general, so let it be. ;)


That wasn't in the least bit, "elitist" however you look at it. We are talking about how things work, and granted there are opinions on how things could be different or how they might work as written (due to grey areas). But the entire post basically said "this class should be this way" and didn't actually contribute to furthering the guide in the least.


Neither does your derailing the thread to complain about it. :P That's kinda the whole thing about Elitism... His comment would be ignored by anyone who doesn't find it applicable, and no de-rail accomplished. But considering this whole thread has turned into the go-to thread about Kineticists in general, something even N Jolly commented on several pages back, it's not really off topic to just make a comment about Kineticists in general, on the thread. ;)


And your repeating that I'm being elitist by mentioning the fact that a post doesn't have anything to do with the actual subject matter of the thread is on...?

This is advice, on how to run the new class. Not suggestions/house rules/etc on how you think it should work. Which was my point.

Who is derailing what?

Feel free to reply to get the last word in, you can have it. My point has been made abundantly clear by now. I actually had to spell it out.


Since for the purposes of feats, Kinetic Blasts count as a weapon, couldn't you get and extra attack by using Rapid Shot, since that feat refers to Ranged Weapons, not arrows?


Breakfateschain wrote:
Since for the purposes of feats, Kinetic Blasts count as a weapon, couldn't you get and extra attack by using Rapid Shot, since that feat refers to Ranged Weapons, not arrows?

You cannot make a full-attack action with a kinetic blast (ranged), therefore the feat cannot be applied. :(

Silver Crusade

Skylancer4 wrote:

And your repeating that I'm being elitist by mentioning the fact that a post doesn't have anything to do with the actual subject matter of the thread is on...?

This is advice, on how to run the new class. Not suggestions/house rules/etc on how you think it should work. Which was my point.

Who is derailing what?

Feel free to reply to get the last word in, you can have it. My point has been made abundantly clear by now. I actually had to spell it out.

I don't really think that was an elitist thing to say, it's fair to ask about an off topic post, and at worst, it bumps the thread which keeps people able to see the guide's progress.

At the same time, we know that a dev for the class has chimed in here, which means there's a good chance they're checking up on things, so talking about things in the class which do and don't work could help see some changes in things, which is always aces.

I've off topic's in this thread myself because it's 700 post long, and it'd be very difficult to stay on topic for all of it.

Some of the time it's just fun to get ideas out there about how you think things should work, and again, Mark's checked in here, it might be something he takes into consideration when making additional content for the class if there's a large enough desire.

As long as everyone's talking about the kineticist, I consider it on topic myself, but I'm an old soul who just works on this when I get the chance, and I welcome all input, even/especially inane rambling about possible theoretical stuff. Only official product stuff is going into the guide (unless I have a fix I think should be implemented like with the Investigator), so there's no need to worry about the end product having a lot of 'but if I had made this class' stuff in it.

Now to pretend like I had an actual topic for all of this, for sample builds, would people rather see a 1-20 infusion/wild talent/feat load out for each element, or would having specific themes for a few ideas (like trickster and such) be more useful? If I did 1-20 builds on element type, I'd probably stick solo element (or sticking to them for the first expanded element, and pick something decent at 15 to help round it out), while more specialized builds might bounce around a little more in that respect.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

Either way, @Jolly, it might be worthwhile to see what surprises Occult Origins has in store.

But I'd go with themes, and then build elements from there.

Silver Crusade

TomG wrote:

Either way, @Jolly, it might be worthwhile to see what surprises Occult Origins has in store.

But I'd go with themes, and then build elements from there.

Yeah, I'm holding off writing anything of my own until I see that, but I can work with themes, although I'll need suggestions to hear what you all want. I'm assuming something like a turtle build snagging earth/water/aether for a perfect defense sort of build. That's just a basic idea for one, I'd probably do a pure earth build since I love earth/earth/X as an elemental combo.


N. Jolly wrote:
For sample builds, would people rather see a 1-20 infusion/wild talent/feat load out for each element, or would having specific themes for a few ideas (like trickster and such) be more useful? If I did 1-20 builds on element type, I'd probably stick solo element (or sticking to them for the first expanded element, and pick something decent at 15 to help round it out), while more specialized builds might bounce around a little more in that respect.

I think you should do 2 builds, one for Kinetic Blade and one for Kinetic Blasts. The feat selections are low enough that as long as you're taking PointBlank and Precise, the rest isn't going to be a do or die selection for the blast, so regardless of element, you're showing a good build. The real trick is tricking out the Kinetic Blades as best as possible. That's the build people want to see, and ideally with not only the DPR shown, but also why and how it works. Why it so completely outshines the blast in every manner except range. Also, equally important thing... how replacing infusions/utilities are so important. :)

Shadow Lodge

This may be off topic and if so I apologize, but does anyone know why the Aetheric Boost Composite Blast is so horrible compared to all the others? Getting +1 point / Die compared to +1d6+1 for every other physical blast seems really broken (in a bad way).

I was curious if any designers had weighed in on that during playtest or if there is something about that composite blast that I'm missing. I really want to create a Kineticist with Aether, but the blast being the primary way to attack seems really lacking either as a primary or secondary element.

John

Silver Crusade

Harliquinn Whiteshadow wrote:

This may be off topic and if so I apologize, but does anyone know why the Aetheric Boost Composite Blast is so horrible compared to all the others? Getting +1 point / Die compared to +1d6+1 for every other physical blast seems really broken (in a bad way).

I was curious if any designers had weighed in on that during playtest or if there is something about that composite blast that I'm missing. I really want to create a Kineticist with Aether, but the blast being the primary way to attack seems really lacking either as a primary or secondary element.

John

Whoa, whoa, whoa! An off topic post in MY thread? How dare you, sir! You shame me!

Nah, just messing with you. Personally I took it as another "aether isn't damage" combined with the idea that combining telekinesis with any other blast doesn't really work thematically, so you get a rather lackluster composite blast.

Aehter gets nice things like self TK, invisibility, and TK finesse, all of which really help them be a more tricky character, so you're looking at the kind of situation where the trade off for this versatility is a painful downward spiral for damage.

Shadow Lodge

N. Jolly wrote:

Whoa, whoa, whoa! An off topic post in MY thread? How dare you, sir! You shame me!

Nah, just messing with you. Personally I took it as another "aether isn't damage" combined with the idea that combining telekinesis with any other blast doesn't really work thematically, so you get a rather lackluster composite blast.

Aehter gets nice things like self TK, invisibility, and TK finesse, all of which really help them be a more tricky character, so you're looking at the kind of situation where the trade off for this versatility is a painful downward spiral for damage.

I understand versatility being a trade-off, but Air has some really great things such as Fly, etc. It just seems sad that picking Aether as an element before level 16 means no real composite blast worth using.

John

Scarab Sages

Harliquinn Whiteshadow wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:

Whoa, whoa, whoa! An off topic post in MY thread? How dare you, sir! You shame me!

Nah, just messing with you. Personally I took it as another "aether isn't damage" combined with the idea that combining telekinesis with any other blast doesn't really work thematically, so you get a rather lackluster composite blast.

Aehter gets nice things like self TK, invisibility, and TK finesse, all of which really help them be a more tricky character, so you're looking at the kind of situation where the trade off for this versatility is a painful downward spiral for damage.

I understand versatility being a trade-off, but Air has some really great things such as Fly, etc. It just seems sad that picking Aether as an element before level 16 means no real composite blast worth using.

John

The real composite blast of Aether is disintegration. Unfortunately, it has a save, but your DC should be high.


Skylancer4 wrote:
Maybe I am missing something, but what does any of that have to do with a guide on how the final published class works?

Weirdo quote:
My homebrew feat gives you access to another simple blast from an element you have, not an element you don't have. As such the application is currently just for those with water or air as either a primary or expanded element - though if more simple blasts are introduced it may be useful for more builds.

Also, having more composite blasts doesn't give you any more advantages than having more simple blasts - the issues are still variety of damage type and applicable infusions. A hydro/aerokineticist with wind, cold, and electricity simple blasts may get both the blizzard and thunderstorm blast but the difference for the two is cold vs electricity damage and cold vs electric infusions, just like the simple blasts.

N. Jolly quote:
I don't mind the discussion here, and I agree with Weirdo that an additional simple blast wouldn't be game breaking. I think it's a bit of a flaw of design to not include a composite blast for every elemental combination (come on, fire/electric would be SICK like Pikkon's Thunder Flare blast from DBZ), and the ability to remove your chance to get a composite blast through poor planning just doesn't sit well with me. While I could see reducing it by 1d6 or so, I don't even think that's needed. It's generally just giving a touch and regular AC target, and as stated, it makes sure someone's not worthless against certain foes.

As an aside, I myself have decided Pure Flame infusion ignores fire resistance/immunity, which to me makes it so that Fire can continue to do what it needs to without being hammered for being fire. I should ask if anyone in the thread is interested in a few ideas I had for the class, although I might talk with some 3P people and see if we can coordinate on me putting out a short splat for other ideas I've had for this class, since there's a lot of design space here that I could mess around with.

I'm not sure why you jumped all over my post because the last 10 posts or so, discussed changes or homebrewed content for the Kineticist. I figured I'd mention some ideas I had towards some things I would have done different.

I guess I was wrong and shouldn't mention such things. I apologize and won't do it again.


I read through the guide before reading the class then spend a few days playing with builds and reading about the class and have a few thoughts.

Kinetic Blast is blue? This is the cornerstone of the class and should be purple or black (unrated). While you will improve upon it, it's still not possible to be a kineticist without it.

Gather Power is a lot more important than green. (maybe I'm just rating everything higher than you do?)

Elemental Defense- I don't think this general ability can be rated and should probably be black. I also don't understand rating something that is not a choice of the class. (this is for the whole category not the individual elemental defense options, which come later).

Same thoughts on utility wild talent and infusions as well. Giving them a rating here is kind of a put off. Since they are options on how to build your character, its the options themselves that should be rated.

Metakineteticist is 3 different abilities. Empower is blue or purple if reduced. Maximize is green at best. Quicken is awesome but needs to be used in very specific instances.

After writing this, I think if everything in the opening you have blue was purple and everything green was blue I would agree with it a lot more.

I will try to go over more later.


Rylar wrote:

I read through the guide before reading the class then spend a few days playing with builds and reading about the class and have a few thoughts.

Kinetic Blast is blue? This is the cornerstone of the class and should be purple or black (unrated). While you will improve upon it, it's still not possible to be a kineticist without it.

Gather Power is a lot more important than green. (maybe I'm just rating everything higher than you do?)

Elemental Defense- I don't think this general ability can be rated and should probably be black. I also don't understand rating something that is not a choice of the class. (this is for the whole category not the individual elemental defense options, which come later).

Same thoughts on utility wild talent and infusions as well. Giving them a rating here is kind of a put off. Since they are options on how to build your character, its the options themselves that should be rated.

Metakineteticist is 3 different abilities. Empower is blue or purple if reduced. Maximize is green at best. Quicken is awesome but needs to be used in very specific instances.

After writing this, I think if everything in the opening you have blue was purple and everything green was blue I would agree with it a lot more.

I will try to go over more later.

My understanding for rating class abilities is so when archetypes come along and trade them out, you know what you're getting.

For example, I suspect there will likely be a Kineticist/Warlock Vigilante archetype as they both have the potential for all-day energy attacks. However, it might trade out some of the Kienticist's best abilities for abilities from the Warlock. Like losing Kinetic Blast for the Warlock's blast (arguably a downgrade). Or losing Utility Talents for the Social Identity (definitely a downgrade).


Suggestions for themes:

Storm kineticist - Air/Water/Aether

Trapsmith - aetherkineticist with dip in a trapfinding class


Philo Pharynx wrote:

Suggestions for themes:

Storm kineticist - Air/Water/Aether

Trapsmith - aetherkineticist with dip in a trapfinding class

vmc rogue is probably better. you get a few things like sneak and etc in addition to trapfinding, and it's not like you are a feat heavy class, so you can afford the feats easily.


I second a VMC UCRogue build. I add suggestions of a monk build (VMC or otherwise, ascetic or otherwise, personally I like cryo/geo for it to pick up entangling on every hit, with lots of chances to hit), a build focused on rediculously good air mobility (what's the most effective thing to do with all that speed anyways? What can you do to take real advantage of indisputable right to be wherever you want? Besides being immune to melee, always, what can you do to protect the team with this?)
And I'd love to see what effects people most want to use with flurry of blasts. Its a cool idea, it gives huge potential for crowd debuff and a solid save dc increase vs single targets. What debuff(s) would you want to build a character around? I love entangling, for the ability to pin the opponent to the floor.

Silver Crusade

I'd rather avoid doing VMCs included in this for the same reason that I avoid using multiclassing on my other guides (or else all the gunslinger builds would be GS(or BA)5/Another Class X.

Also maybe I'm just being a bit dense, but Kinetic Chirurgeon has gather power/supercharge, but it doesn't seem like they can use them for anything due to not having infusions, something I learned while building one for a side project. Seeing as gather/super can only be used on blast wild talents, does this ability serve any function? Again, I might not be seeing it, but it seems entirely vestigial.


N. Jolly wrote:

I'd rather avoid doing VMCs included in this for the same reason that I avoid using multiclassing on my other guides (or else all the gunslinger builds would be GS(or BA)5/Another Class X.

Also maybe I'm just being a bit dense, but Kinetic Chirurgeon has gather power/supercharge, but it doesn't seem like they can use them for anything due to not having infusions, something I learned while building one for a side project. Seeing as gather/super can only be used on blast wild talents, does this ability serve any function? Again, I might not be seeing it, but it seems entirely vestigial.

composites?

Silver Crusade

shroudb wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:

I'd rather avoid doing VMCs included in this for the same reason that I avoid using multiclassing on my other guides (or else all the gunslinger builds would be GS(or BA)5/Another Class X.

Also maybe I'm just being a bit dense, but Kinetic Chirurgeon has gather power/supercharge, but it doesn't seem like they can use them for anything due to not having infusions, something I learned while building one for a side project. Seeing as gather/super can only be used on blast wild talents, does this ability serve any function? Again, I might not be seeing it, but it seems entirely vestigial.

composites?

I guess that's it then, they keep composite specialist too, so I guess with a supercharge they get a free aetheric boost + composite, it just feels so wasted to me. It does really feel like Aether is the best 3rd element in the class at this point just for the 1 additional burn giving a nice damage increase to composites.


N. Jolly wrote:
shroudb wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:

I'd rather avoid doing VMCs included in this for the same reason that I avoid using multiclassing on my other guides (or else all the gunslinger builds would be GS(or BA)5/Another Class X.

Also maybe I'm just being a bit dense, but Kinetic Chirurgeon has gather power/supercharge, but it doesn't seem like they can use them for anything due to not having infusions, something I learned while building one for a side project. Seeing as gather/super can only be used on blast wild talents, does this ability serve any function? Again, I might not be seeing it, but it seems entirely vestigial.

composites?
I guess that's it then, they keep composite specialist too, so I guess with a supercharge they get a free aetheric boost + composite, it just feels so wasted to me. It does really feel like Aether is the best 3rd element in the class at this point just for the 1 additional burn giving a nice damage increase to composites.

It's sad too, because I really want to like the KC as a primary healer. Unfortunately they are nowhere near that position and fill the role of support healer, because their main healing ability creates "damage" to heal damage... I could live with that if they could still be considered competent in combat, but with losing Infusions the KC becomes horribly underwhelming in combat due to the lose of versatility. Aether seems like the only option for KC to still be useful in other ways. I like Hydrokineticists, but their Utility Infusions leave a lot to be desired when compared to Aether for this role.

Perhaps if the KC had a way to help gain access to the Restoration spells it might be more appealing. Perhaps even being able to Flurry Blasts with Kinetic Healing for a mass heal, that might be interesting. In its current incarnation this archetype feels more like an NPC archetype to me.

Shadow Lodge

Question: Can anyone explain the differences between the two applications of "Telekinetic Blast" and why anyone would use the "Loosen the Strands" version?

The "Wrapped in Strands of Aether" version I sort of get, in that whatever you throw is essentially 'flavor' and your damage is always your Blast Damage. However, since the item is wrapped in Aether and doesn't impart any of its special abilities, I'm not sure why the object takes damage. If it does take damage, does Hardness and Hitpoints, etc. count?

For the "Loosen the Strands of Aether" version, instead of Blast damage, you do damage as if you threw the item, and both the target and item still take the same damage. However, how does one compute the damage if the character throws something big? Is there a table or chart that lists 'damage by size of object'? If you're limited to things you could hold in hand to throw the damage is going to be very small. I also assume that hitpoints and hardness apply to the object.

John


Could loosen the strands version of the simple aether blast be used with splash weapons and the like? If your blast's range still applies, that could allow you to douse things in alchemist's fire/holy water from far away.

I am not saying it is a good option for long...but it might be useful early on.

Maybe some use later to deliver items with spells attached, like one with darkness on it.


I feel like the wording seems to say the item takes the damage *when you use the loose blast*.
As for damage, it's treated as an improvised thrown weapon, so find the nearest weapon to that size item. Or maybe the falling objects damage chart for really big things.

Shadow Lodge

Another Question: Can you use Telekinetic Haul with your Telekinetic Blast and "loosen the strands" to have your extremely heavy object deal tons of damage? Telekinetic Haul says it doesn't increase the damage, but the wording of Telekinetic Blast "Loosen the Strands" says you do damage as the object.

John


I would picture that as legal, but is that huge rock doing more falling damage than your blast does? Is it worth that extra damage to give up substance infusions, which I feel you'd have to do based on how it works? (I could be wrong, I see no wording saying you do, but I just don't see how it "should" add substances if you're just tossing the item itself at them) What form infusions can you use with such large objects? I doubt many throw works well with it, you'd have to divide your max weight (and therefore damage) by the number of items. Is it worth the inconvenience of dragging around a 1/4 ton statue, and repairing it as it shatters against enemies?


Enjoy being able to pick up oversized objects and hurling them using Flurry of Blasts with the loosened strands version.


one of the benefits of loosen the strands is using special material items to bypass DR, using the magical properties of a magic item and etc

Shadow Lodge

shroudb wrote:
one of the benefits of loosen the strands is using special material items to bypass DR, using the magical properties of a magic item and etc

I suppose as long as you're doing it with items who can take the beating, it's okay. I just can't see being rich enough to hurl magical weapons or expensive materials when they are going to take a lot of damage in return.


At 4th level your Aetherkineticist can fling a Sedan at an enemy. Without the loose strands option it will do the same damage as flinging a golf ball. Also, it would only hit one guy. 2D6+4+con vs [damage of carsized object hitting you]+con.

Dark Archive

You will note that "and if the object is a weapon, you must be proficient with it and able to wield it with one hand; otherwise, the item deals damage as a one-handed improvised weapon for a creature of your size." means that your car is doing 1d6+con damage on loosened strands blast.

What you're supposed to do with it is have extended range, and use basic TK with two move actions to lift it roughly 60 feet over the head of your target, and then free action drop it on them. Then it gets to do damage as a huge falling object.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Take Throw Anything, and you're proficient in anything you throw.

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