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Precise Companion (Ex): At 2nd level, a hunter chooses either Precise Shot or Outflank as a bonus feat. She does not need to meet the prerequisites for this feat. If she chooses Outflank, she automatically grants this feat to her animal companion as well.
Does the granting of the Outflank feat's benefits to the Animal Companion assume that the Animal Companion knows how to flank with the Hunter, or is it up to the master to maneuver into flanking position?
Must the Hunter train the Animal Companion to flank in order to do it on command (using the "Flank" trick from the Animal Archive or "Other Trick")?
As I understand it, you have to move into flanking position unless its something the animal would normally do (wolves are known to flank for hamstringing), or teach it a trick.
Otherwise there is the teamwork feat "pack flanking" (don't know how to link) from the ACG that makes you and your pet flanking if you are sharing the square or adjacent to each other.
I use it on my goblin riding mantis, he grapples, I hit, we both get the overflank bonus :).
remember you share your teamwork feats with your companion as a hunter at level 3 (hunter tactics).
This I know for base class, don't know about the archtypes.
There is always pushing the animal too, as a skill check.
It doesn't make any logical sense for an AC to have feats that enhance it's ability to flank without knowing how to flank.
But it makes PERFECT Pathfinder sense.
It doesn't make any logical sense for an AC to have feats that enhance it's ability to flank without knowing how to flank.
But it makes PERFECT Pathfinder sense.
Well assuming that character trying to take advantage of the flanking bonus is smart enough to maneuver into a flanking position (send AC in and move character to correct position). As opposed to the assumption everything works to the best benefit of the character.
It really depends on the GM how this plays out. My Hunter will just avoid the whole issue by going with Pack Flanking.
Thanks, but the question is raised in the context of the Class Feature that offers the Outflank and Precise Shot feats as options. Other feats, even if possibly better choices, are not relevant to the question.
Well, I answered the question.
"It really depends on the GM how this plays out."
Thanks, but the question is raised in the context of the Class Feature that offers the Outflank and Precise Shot feats as options. Other feats, even if possibly better choices, are not relevant to the question.
Tricks or Handle Animal checks.
IMO, you need the Flank trick (known or pushed) to circle around for a flank, or to move into position under threat of opportunity attacks. But not if you're just moving one square to the left or the right in order to get that flank.
Well assuming that character trying to take advantage of the flanking bonus is smart enough to maneuver into a flanking position (send AC in and move character to correct position).It doesn't make any logical sense for an AC to have feats that enhance it's ability to flank without knowing how to flank.
But it makes PERFECT Pathfinder sense.
I would argue that the effort to teach the AC the "Flank" trick is a better use of your time then spending half of every encounter manuevering a PC. AC's are generally less combat effective than their masters. I would much rather be able to take an action to tell my AC to flank than spend turns I could be dealing damage watching my AC wiff while I try to set up a flank.
Heck, I've played with GMs who are of the opinion that if you don't specifically give a AC any commands, it will just sit there watching the combat go by. Might as well tell it to set up a flank while I'm at it.
As opposed to the assumption everything works to the best benefit of the character.
I don't know what you mean by this. I thought it was clear I was saying "just because your AC can take extra advantage of flanking doesn't mean it knows the "flank" trick w/o you specifically teaching it, because Pathfinder." If it wasn't, sorry.
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I'm in the camp your AC won't flank unless you teach it flank, nor will it track if you don't teach it track. Your AC isn't like a robot who does what you want as if it can read your mind, it is an animal, of animal intelligence. You can train instincts, but you can't make narrowly trace the perfect AoO free path between foes to get you flank, at least not and maintain verisimilitude.
Entirely relevant as you gain teamwork feats for free.
Not relevant as that is a different class ability than the one being discussed.
You get bonus tricks as part of Animal Companion progression. 1 at 1st level, 2 at 3rd, 3 at 6th, 4 at 7th, 5 at 9th, 6 at 12th, 7 at 13th, 8 at 15th, 9 at 18th, 10 at 19th.
Yes, but the question is "do you have to use one of those to teach the AC to flank, or does having the Outflank feat as a bonus selected here include the AC knowing how to flank when needed?"
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I rather dislike the idea of needing a year old companion book you might not be interested in at all to get basic use out of a new class published in a newly published "core" book.
But I guess it's about time to accept that the Hunter doesn't have its animal tricks options in decent working order and probably never will. Even after the recent errata, the exact working of the skirmisher tricks option is still completely unclear.
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I rather dislike the idea of needing a year old companion book you might not be interested in at all to get basic use out of a new class published in a newly published "core" book.
That's a bad argument. You could have had your animal companion take the Outflank feat as its eighth level feat long before the ACG came out and you'd've been in the exact same boat.
Yeah, you need the Flank Trick but that's relatively easy to accomplish. You get the animal companion you choose to train for a purpose (whichever suits you). You can then also teach it either attack anything trick or flank trick. And probably still have some tricks left over to begin with.
I rather dislike the idea of needing a year old companion book you might not be interested in at all to get basic use out of a new class published in a newly published "core" book.That's a bad argument. You could have had your animal companion take the Outflank feat as its eighth level feat long before the ACG came out and you'd've been in the exact same boat.
You could have, but if you know in advance that your GM would make it uninteresting, you wouldn't, just like every other feat you could teach it that wouldn't work well. With the Hunter, it's a basic class option. Basic class options should be sufficiently covered in the book that introduces the class, or in the core rulebook that you'll need to play anyway.
But anyway, it's a minor issue on top of the disaster that's the Hunter and its trick options and easily remedied by taking a feat that the OP doesn't want to hear about. I'm not passionate about it, I just dislike it.
Thank you all for your input.
For the record, I am the GM and asked the question in fairness to a player who feels the free feat should also imply that the animal automatically knows how to flank on command.
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I'm not sure we can truly equate how a wolf pack (or any other animal) hunts to combat. A typical wolf hunt is a much more long drawn out affair, and any return of aggression is in the form of defensive panic, not trained combatants. Wolves hunt their prey over a long duration, often waiting for the situation to be right, and with different pack members taking on different roles in the hunt (harrying, corralling, taking down.) None of this really equates to the kinds of combats pathfinders rules simulate. Any similarity is fleeting, or flawed, and it is probably a fallacy to make rules calls based on reality.
In the end we have to go to raw, raw says flank trick is required, so you need the flank trick. Outflank just allows you to take better advantage of that flank.
*edit*
Just wanted to say, outflank still works if you move into your AC's flank, the trick is to make your AC position the flank.
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But anyway, it's a minor issue on top of the disaster that's the Hunter and its trick options and easily remedied by taking a feat that the OP doesn't want to hear about. I'm not passionate about it, I just dislike it.
The disaster? I'll hold judgement on your word choice until I know what you mean..
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Yes, but the question is "do you have to use one of those to teach the AC to flank, or does having the Outflank feat as a bonus selected here include the AC knowing how to flank when needed?"
Does the AC know how to flank? Yes. Does it know what you mean when you say "Fluffy, flank that thing!" No. You didn't teach it what you expect it to do when you tell it to flank something.
Do dogs know how to sit? Yes. Does a dog that is either untrained or was trained in anything other than English know what you want when you tell it to sit? No.
I'd think wolves, hyenas, lions, raptors etc. would default to flanking something when told to attack it.
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But anyway, it's a minor issue on top of the disaster that's the Hunter and its trick options and easily remedied by taking a feat that the OP doesn't want to hear about. I'm not passionate about it, I just dislike it.The disaster? I'll hold judgement on your word choice until I know what you mean..
Skirmisher tricks. Still no DC given to teach them, and still no word on how they're supposed to work. Most of those tricks cannot function within the standard rules framework of master-companion interaction or seem impossible for animals to do in the first place.
Yes, but the question is "do you have to use one of those to teach the AC to flank, or does having the Outflank feat as a bonus selected here include the AC knowing how to flank when needed?"Does the AC know how to flank? Yes. Does it know what you mean when you say "Fluffy, flank that thing!" No. You didn't teach it what you expect it to do when you tell it to flank something.
Do dogs know how to sit? Yes. Does a dog that is either untrained or was trained in anything other than English know what you want when you tell it to sit? No.
So you basically taught your companion animal to become very, very good at flanking, without teaching it to flank?
Sure, that makes sense.
Not as good as people want it to be.Action: Varies. Handling an animal is a move action, while “pushing” an animal is a full-round action. (A druid or ranger can handle an animal companion as a free action or push it as a move action.)The animal doesn't have to know.. remember it's an animal companion so you get that druid speed bonus in pushing it into maneuvers you need to have it done, which I think is a swift action? There actually IS a reason to make some investment in Handle Animal for Druids, Rangers, and Hunters.It doesn't make any logical sense for an AC to have feats that enhance it's ability to flank without knowing how to flank.
But it makes PERFECT Pathfinder sense.
But it is an option that takes minimal investment to use. And you are better at attempting it than normal. Which is the point. You don't want to use the trick for "reasons", then don't. But don't expect the trick to be easy or free for "reasons" either.
But it is an option that takes minimal investment to use. And you are better at attempting it than normal. Which is the point. You don't want to use the trick for "reasons", then don't. But don't expect the trick to be easy or free for "reasons" either.Not as good as people want it to be.Action: Varies. Handling an animal is a move action, while “pushing” an animal is a full-round action. (A druid or ranger can handle an animal companion as a free action or push it as a move action.)The animal doesn't have to know.. remember it's an animal companion so you get that druid speed bonus in pushing it into maneuvers you need to have it done, which I think is a swift action? There actually IS a reason to make some investment in Handle Animal for Druids, Rangers, and Hunters.It doesn't make any logical sense for an AC to have feats that enhance it's ability to flank without knowing how to flank.
But it makes PERFECT Pathfinder sense.
Minimal investment would be "Hey, I'm teaching my AC the flank trick. Has it been a week yet? No? Ok, tell me when it has so I can make my check."
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Skirmisher tricks. Still no DC given to teach them, and still no word on how they're supposed to work. Most of those tricks cannot function within the standard rules framework of master-companion interaction or seem impossible for animals to do in the first place.But anyway, it's a minor issue on top of the disaster that's the Hunter and its trick options and easily remedied by taking a feat that the OP doesn't want to hear about. I'm not passionate about it, I just dislike it.The disaster? I'll hold judgement on your word choice until I know what you mean..
The Handle Animal skill only gives you 2 choices for DCs, one for simple tricks and one for more complex tricks. It's not that difficult to assume a DC of 20 for something that is obviously more complex than "heel".
And out of 26 tricks I spot only 8 that could be issues, and only 2 of those that really are problematic.
4 flat out cannot be used, the 3 that require an animal companion and 1 requiring favoured enemy. Don't select those as your AC doesn't have either.
2 require a ranged attack, slug or camel might find some small use for them, I wouldn't select them for any other AC though.
And 2 are reactive. The 2 reactive ones are really the only problematic ones. How can you instruct your AC to use catfall if it falls when it's not your turn?
8 out of 27 requiring some thought is not most and 2 out of 27 being truly problematic is hardly a disaster. The DC is mildly annoying, but not exactly difficult to make a call on, again hardly a disaster.
Minimal investment would be "Hey, I'm teaching my AC the flank trick. Has it been a week yet? No? Ok, tell me when it has so I can make my check."But it is an option that takes minimal investment to use. And you are better at attempting it than normal. Which is the point. You don't want to use the trick for "reasons", then don't. But don't expect the trick to be easy or free for "reasons" either.Not as good as people want it to be.Action: Varies. Handling an animal is a move action, while “pushing” an animal is a full-round action. (A druid or ranger can handle an animal companion as a free action or push it as a move action.)The animal doesn't have to know.. remember it's an animal companion so you get that druid speed bonus in pushing it into maneuvers you need to have it done, which I think is a swift action? There actually IS a reason to make some investment in Handle Animal for Druids, Rangers, and Hunters.It doesn't make any logical sense for an AC to have feats that enhance it's ability to flank without knowing how to flank.
But it makes PERFECT Pathfinder sense.
That would be something handed to you for free.
The term investment assumes using resources to gain something. In this case skill points spent over a character's career to gain access to something they want. Like an auto flanking AC. You could do it by investing in the skill trick or by investing in an actual skill that allows you to command the AC as you wish despite not investing in said skill tricks. This investment gains access to all the skill tricks essentially, so it isn't like it is a resource "tax" or requirement for one specific use. The character actually gains significantly from it.
Precise Companion (Ex): At 2nd level, a hunter chooses either Precise Shot or Outflank as a bonus feat. She does not need to meet the prerequisites for this feat. If she chooses Outflank, she automatically grants this feat to her animal companion as well.Does the granting of the Outflank feat's benefits to the Animal Companion assume that the Animal Companion knows how to flank with the Hunter, or is it up to the master to maneuver into flanking position?
Must the Hunter train the Animal Companion to flank in order to do it on command (using the "Flank" trick from the Animal Archive or "Other Trick")?
I agree with the player, they do not need to teach the AC the flank trick. Here is why:
Sentence two specifies that prerequisites do not need to be met.
Precise Companion (Ex): At 2nd level, a hunter chooses either Precise Shot or Outflank as a bonus feat. She does not need to meet the prerequisites for this feat. If she chooses Outflank, she automatically grants this feat to her animal companion as well.Does the granting of the Outflank feat's benefits to the Animal Companion assume that the Animal Companion knows how to flank with the Hunter, or is it up to the master to maneuver into flanking position?
Must the Hunter train the Animal Companion to flank in order to do it on command (using the "Flank" trick from the Animal Archive or "Other Trick")?
I agree with the player, they do not need to teach the AC the flank trick. Here is why:
Sentence two specifies that prerequisites do not need to be met.
The trick flank isn't a prerequisite.
The animal doesn't flank unless trained or pushed to do so normally. Having the feat doesn't change that. It just gets a better benefit when it is in such a position.
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I agree with SOG, and attacking from flank is not the same as actively taking advantage of a flank. If two armies come together coincidentally in a tactically advantageous way for one over the other, while they did so by accident, the outcome is no different. Same goes here, you AC won't seek to move into tactically advantageous position, but when in one gains the benefit.
Your AC isn't your autonomous murder robot, it is an NPC with a very low intelligence, with a set of rules that govern what it is able to do on command. You have to adhere to that.
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I realize this is the rules forum but i am gonna say it any Way. In my game a AC Will move to flank if it Can do so with out provoking, with out special training. The attack command include this, for me.
Needing a special splat book for this is silly and a example of how the material bloat by creating options actually take option away.
I realize this is the rules forum but i am gonna say it any Way. In my game a AC Will move to flank if it Can do so with out provoking, with out special training. The attack command include this, for me.
Needing a special splat book for this is silly and a example of how the material bloat by creating options actually take option away.
That's completely compliant with the rules of the game, so no need for the disclaimer.
The first thing I posted in this thread was: "It really depends on the GM how this plays out," and that's how it works. GMs decide the actions of companions if that's their decision, and if they do, it's also their decision how they do it.
I've played my Hunter since my previous post here, for the first time since reaching level 2, and my GM decided that a companion with Outflank will use "safe" movement to get into a flanking position if it can. The flank trick will override this behavior by forcing the companion to also use "unsafe" movement to doggedly keep an enemy flanked.
As an aside, I do wonder how people used to play companions with feats that involve decision making before there was an Animal Archive booklet. There are at least 4 I can think of at the top of my head in the core rulebook list of companion feats. A book that didn't have a wisp of language that made these feats stand out as requiring special tricks.
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I realize this is the rules forum but i am gonna say it any Way. In my game a AC Will move to flank if it Can do so with out provoking, with out special training. The attack command include this, for me.
Needing a special splat book for this is silly and a example of how the material bloat by creating options actually take option away.
And that is fine, Rule 0 allows you to do what you want in your game. The rules make no mention of ACs automatically flanking for combat, so when you tell one to attack, it would essentially make a bee line go the target to attack. It does what it was told to do in the most basic and simple way possible.
Actually, Forseti has a good point. If an Animal Companion has Power Attack do you need to train it to use a trick to be able to use it?
When a player wants to use power attack it is a decision that they (both the player and the character) is making.
Having a bonus while flanking is not the same as learning the (already published) trick that teaches the animal to take a flanking position.
You must teach it the trick, or push it, or assume a flanking position yourself.
Power attack is in no way related to this, but does deserve discussion... do you add a trick, or assume the animal can be commanded for free?
I realize this is the rules forum but i am gonna say it any Way. In my game a AC Will move to flank if it Can do so with out provoking, with out special training. The attack command include this, for me.
Needing a special splat book for this is silly and a example of how the material bloat by creating options actually take option away.
That's completely compliant with the rules of the game, so no need for the disclaimer.
The first thing I posted in this thread was: "It really depends on the GM how this plays out," and that's how it works. GMs decide the actions of companions if that's their decision, and if they do, it's also their decision how they do it.
I've played my Hunter since my previous post here, for the first time since reaching level 2, and my GM decided that a companion with Outflank will use "safe" movement to get into a flanking position if it can. The flank trick will override this behavior by forcing the companion to also use "unsafe" movement to doggedly keep an enemy flanked.
As an aside, I do wonder how people used to play companions with feats that involve decision making before there was an Animal Archive booklet. There are at least 4 I can think of at the top of my head in the core rulebook list of companion feats. A book that didn't have a wisp of language that made these feats stand out as requiring special tricks.
It doesn't require the trick to gain the benefit.
My hunter has trained her cat to have flank... the way this manifests is that the cat will five foot adjust (if required) to maintain a flanking position, or if charging an opponent already in melee, will choose a path leading to a flanking position.
Without the trick, it's safe to assume (like a trained attack dog in any tv show or movie you have seen)-the animal charges the targeted opponent, straight line, and attacks.
This feat grants them BONUSES while flanking, it doesn't teach them how to be more effective at getting into that position.
Actually, Forseti has a good point. If an Animal Companion has Power Attack do you need to train it to use a trick to be able to use it?
When a player wants to use power attack it is a decision that they (both the player and the character) is making.
And Power Attack is the easy one. Spring Attack, that's a puzzler. You'd have to tell the animal what to attack, and where to end its post-attack movement.
Or we could just assume that creatures that have feats also know how to apply them effectively without their master getting in their faces all the time.
Outflank, for example, imparts the ability to find openings in an enemies defenses under certain circumstances, right? And they can't see those openings from 5' away? Ridiculous.