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I wanted to check this first before I finalize my build:
Page 33—In the Unconventional Inspiration talent, change the entire text to “An investigator with this talent can pick any one skill. He can add his inspiration die to checks attempted with that skill without expending a use of inspiration.”
An investigator can pick any one skill that he is trained in but that he can’t use his inspiration with. He can use inspiration with that skill. An investigator must be at least 17th level to select this talent.
My Investigator is going with the Snake Fang style path, and Unconventional Inspiration (Sense Motive) would be amazing at 3rd level.
Does the errata remove the "must be at least 17th level" requirement as well? Because that just seems too good to be true.
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I think you're correct in your reading of it. It does say "entire text" rather than "first and second sentences."
However, why not just take Expanded Inspiration? No level requirement either way, you get 5 skills for the price of one talent, and you get to use it for free with Perception!
"Expanded Inspiration (Ex): An investigator can use his inspiration ability when attempting Diplomacy, Heal, Perception, Profession, and Sense Motive checks without expending uses of inspiration, provided he's trained in the skill."
I feel like Unconventional Inspiration is to allow an Investigator to add Inspiration die without expending a use with a skill not provided for in any of the stock talents. As it stands the skills that can receive that benefit and their talents are:
UMD (Device talent)
Diplomacy, Heal, Perception, Profession, and Sense Motive (Expanded)
Untrained Knowledges, Linguistics, and Spellcraft (Inspired)
Bluff, Disable Device, Disguise, Intimidate, and Sleight of Hand (Underworld)
So Unconventional would best be used with any other skill that you can't boost for free otherwise: Acrobatics, Appraise, Climb, Craft, Escape Artist, Fly, Handle Animal, Perform, Ride, Stealth, Survival, or Swim.
Vanlo is correct. Expanded Inspiration is definitely the superior choice for getting sense motive for free inspiration use and Unconventional Inspiration should only be used for skills you can't get otherwise.
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Agreed with Vanlo and Protoman. When I flagged that talent, it was not only written wrong (you can always use inspiration on any skill, unlike its implication), but the power it meant to be was fairly niche (going after a skill not on any of those other lists), and it also had an incredibly high prereq level for no perceivable reason. As is, it's a useful addition to the talent list to fill out that small niche, but it's still likely going to be a rare choice.
Agreed with Vanlo and Protoman. When I flagged that talent, it was not only written wrong (you can always use inspiration on any skill, unlike its implication), but the power it meant to be was fairly niche (going after a skill not on any of those other lists), and it also had an incredibly high prereq level for no perceivable reason. As is, it's a useful addition to the talent list to fill out that small niche, but it's still likely going to be a rare choice.
Thanks for the changes. I think that getting free inspiration for stealth might be nice for a scouting-focused ratfolk investigator that I've been thinking about. It is tricky to fit it in at the early levels, though. So many good talents...
And I'm happy that the errata seems to have only improved the Investigator class.
Edit: I do wish that they had gotten the ability to use spell-trigger items like Alchemists, though.
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Agreed with Vanlo and Protoman. When I flagged that talent, it was not only written wrong (you can always use inspiration on any skill, unlike its implication), but the power it meant to be was fairly niche (going after a skill not on any of those other lists), and it also had an incredibly high prereq level for no perceivable reason. As is, it's a useful addition to the talent list to fill out that small niche, but it's still likely going to be a rare choice.Thanks for the changes. I think that getting free inspiration for stealth might be nice for a scouting-focused ratfolk investigator that I've been thinking about. It is tricky to fit it in at the early levels, though. So many good talents...
And I'm happy that the errata seems to have only improved the Investigator class.
Edit: I do wish that they had gotten the ability to use spell-trigger items like Alchemists, though.
Yeah Stealth is one of those skills that is useful enough to fill that niche, though the ones that give you lots of skills are just so tempting. I know my investigator has been having trouble picking!
@Your Edit on spell trigger: That was indeed on my list to check, since I had also thought it was an error that it wasn't mentioned and had been allowing investigators to use spell trigger items in my games. Turns out that Stephen, who wrote the investigator, had intentionally removed that line from investigators, so it is intentional that they can't use spell trigger items. That's the reason there wasn't any comment on it; we didn't miss that question.
Agreed with Vanlo and Protoman. When I flagged that talent, it was not only written wrong (you can always use inspiration on any skill, unlike its implication), but the power it meant to be was fairly niche (going after a skill not on any of those other lists), and it also had an incredibly high prereq level for no perceivable reason. As is, it's a useful addition to the talent list to fill out that small niche, but it's still likely going to be a rare choice.Thanks for the changes. I think that getting free inspiration for stealth might be nice for a scouting-focused ratfolk investigator that I've been thinking about. It is tricky to fit it in at the early levels, though. So many good talents...
And I'm happy that the errata seems to have only improved the Investigator class.
Edit: I do wish that they had gotten the ability to use spell-trigger items like Alchemists, though.
Yeah Stealth is one of those skills that is useful enough to fill that niche, though the ones that give you lots of skills are just so tempting. I know my investigator has been having trouble picking!
@Your Edit on spell trigger: That was indeed on my list to check, since I had also thought it was an error that it wasn't mentioned and had been allowing investigators to use spell trigger items in my games. Turns out that Stephen, who wrote the investigator, had intentionally removed that line from investigators, so it is intentional that they can't use spell trigger items. That's the reason there wasn't any comment on it; we didn't miss that question.
Thank you for the official word on investigators and spell-trigger items. I'll reference this post next time I run into that old debate.
comments like this are super helpful to know that things have been considered and decided to have no change and weren't just overlooked. Like now that we know it's intentional we can stop asking, otherwise we'd have kept asking if it was correct.
Yeah Stealth is one of those skills that is useful enough to fill that niche, though the ones that give you lots of skills are just so tempting. I know my investigator has been having trouble picking!Agreed with Vanlo and Protoman. When I flagged that talent, it was not only written wrong (you can always use inspiration on any skill, unlike its implication), but the power it meant to be was fairly niche (going after a skill not on any of those other lists), and it also had an incredibly high prereq level for no perceivable reason. As is, it's a useful addition to the talent list to fill out that small niche, but it's still likely going to be a rare choice.Thanks for the changes. I think that getting free inspiration for stealth might be nice for a scouting-focused ratfolk investigator that I've been thinking about. It is tricky to fit it in at the early levels, though. So many good talents...
And I'm happy that the errata seems to have only improved the Investigator class.
Edit: I do wish that they had gotten the ability to use spell-trigger items like Alchemists, though.
Having too many good choices is a problem that I like to have.
@Your Edit on spell trigger: That was indeed on my list to check, since I had also thought it was an error that it wasn't mentioned and had been allowing investigators to use spell trigger items in my games. Turns out that Stephen, who wrote the investigator, had intentionally removed that line from investigators, so it is intentional that they can't use spell trigger items. That's the reason there wasn't any comment on it; we didn't miss that question.
I would also like to thank you for this information! I had always thought it was intentional. As I remember, it is conspicuously missing from a section of text basically cut and pasted from the Alchemist description. And it seems right that the parent classes should keep some of their goodies to themselves. But part of me did still hope...
Agreed with Vanlo and Protoman. When I flagged that talent, it was not only written wrong (you can always use inspiration on any skill, unlike its implication), but the power it meant to be was fairly niche (going after a skill not on any of those other lists), and it also had an incredibly high prereq level for no perceivable reason. As is, it's a useful addition to the talent list to fill out that small niche, but it's still likely going to be a rare choice.Thanks for the changes. I think that getting free inspiration for stealth might be nice for a scouting-focused ratfolk investigator that I've been thinking about. It is tricky to fit it in at the early levels, though. So many good talents...
And I'm happy that the errata seems to have only improved the Investigator class.
Edit: I do wish that they had gotten the ability to use spell-trigger items like Alchemists, though.
Yeah Stealth is one of those skills that is useful enough to fill that niche, though the ones that give you lots of skills are just so tempting. I know my investigator has been having trouble picking!
@Your Edit on spell trigger: That was indeed on my list to check, since I had also thought it was an error that it wasn't mentioned and had been allowing investigators to use spell trigger items in my games. Turns out that Stephen, who wrote the investigator, had intentionally removed that line from investigators, so it is intentional that they can't use spell trigger items. That's the reason there wasn't any comment on it; we didn't miss that question.
Do we know why Investigators can't use spell trigger items? The ruling doesn't make any sense to me.
I would say the investigator still needs errata concerning spell trigger as it is currently too easy for a normal person to completely miss that absence. There needs to be a line specifying that you can't use spell trigger.
As a class that's expected to have high UMD anyway, it's not a huge loss. It just needs to be clarified in the text that you don't get it, because it is so reasonable to assume that you do.
I think he referred to Stephen Randy-MacFarland, who is a rules team member.StephenNot let nonsense cooked up by freelancers dictate your game.
That won't do much on placating him.
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I do think the Spell Trigger thing needs to be addressed. There's nothing in the Investigator talking about what items they can or can't use. But they use spells in the same way as Alchemists, so it's reasonable to let them use the same set of items.
And in the Alchemist, they're spoken of as basically "because of the way alchemists use magic, they can use Spell Trigger but not Spell Completion".
I've gone into this before and people half-remembered that there was a designer comment somewhere in the playtest saying Investigators couldn't use Spell-Trigger. But I wasn't able to actually find that comment, so I had to dismisss that as being too obscure that actually use.
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So should investigators get to use wands? I think they should.
1) Flavor argument: investigators use the same kind of magic as alchemists. They should be able to use the same items. Also, investigators are quite flavored as a tool-using class, so wands are appropriate.
2) Consistency argument: investigators use the same kind of magic as alchemists. They should be able to use the same items.
3) Balance argument: investigators are not stronger than alchemists, probably a lot more limited even. There's no need to take this away from them.
4) Uniqueness argument: wands aren't some feature that's highly specific to alchemists that should be reserved for that class alone.
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I've been telling ppl in my Lodge that Investigators could use wands. There was a very well-reasoned post somewhere explaining that nothing in the Investigator writeup prohibits wand use, and the thought that two similarly functioning classes couldn't both use wands never entered our minds.
Quite a few people (myself included) are going to need a refund on the gold and Prestige we spent on wands if this isn't reversed.
Nope, the new FAQ says it's an intentional slight to the Investigator; No wand use for you.
UMD. Most investigators have this and should still be able to use their wands. Especially in the later levels.
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I've been telling ppl in my Lodge that Investigators could use wands. There was a very well-reasoned post somewhere explaining that nothing in the Investigator writeup prohibits wand use, and the thought that two similarly functioning classes couldn't both use wands never entered our minds.
Quite a few people (myself included) are going to need a refund on the gold and Prestige we spent on wands if this isn't reversed.
They really, really, should not be that sneaky and persnickity about two increibly similar things working very differently. It encourages rampant rules lawyering.
I've been telling ppl in my Lodge that Investigators could use wands. There was a very well-reasoned post somewhere explaining that nothing in the Investigator writeup prohibits wand use, and the thought that two similarly functioning classes couldn't both use wands never entered our minds.
Quite a few people (myself included) are going to need a refund on the gold and Prestige we spent on wands if this isn't reversed.
They certainly weren't bad rationales; I happened to have been under the same mistaken belief in every game with my own PFS investigator (oops!) But that's what turned out to be the case. My PFS investigator has UMD, so he'll hang onto his wands (his Charisma is pretty terrible, but with inspiration, he has a pretty good chance anyways).
They certainly weren't bad rationales; I happened to have been under the same mistaken belief in every game with my own PFS investigator (oops!) But that's what turned out to be the case. My PFS investigator has UMD, so he'll hang onto his wands (his Charisma is pretty terrible, but with inspiration, he has a pretty good chance anyways).I've been telling ppl in my Lodge that Investigators could use wands. There was a very well-reasoned post somewhere explaining that nothing in the Investigator writeup prohibits wand use, and the thought that two similarly functioning classes couldn't both use wands never entered our minds.
Quite a few people (myself included) are going to need a refund on the gold and Prestige we spent on wands if this isn't reversed.
This clarification does make Device Talent and Pragmatic Activator a bit more valuable.
