I'm going to be the controller/anvil/god wizard for my group. I will be an aasimar shaman grabbing battlefield control and buff spells from the wizard spell list via Arcane Enlightenment, and I'm the only full caster in the group. I'm not so concerned about overshadowing other players because I'm going to be playing a support role, but I am concerned about making the game boring, unchallenging, or frustrating for the DM.
I was thinking about using Dazing Spell with various metamagic reduction traits, but I've got to ask, does permadazing all the monsters make the game boring or frustrating? When I DM, I personally get frustrated when potent foes get defeated by a single action, whether it's from a save-or-die using caster or an AM Barbarian charge. I'm looking for opinions from people who have actually played as/with hardcore lockdown characters, like dazing blockbuster wizards and hangover clerics.
I still want to be able to want to be able to pull my group's bacon out of the frying pan if things get too hot, but I don't want to rely on spamming Dazing Fireball/Ball Lightning every combat. Does anyone have any advice for making a more group-friendly (and DM-friendly) controller?
Steamrolling / facerolling makes the game boring. How it's achieved doesn't matter, but Dazing Spells is one of the easiest ways. An even easier way is to make a well-optimized martial character to just destroy things in one turn.
If you're worried about it already and haven't even started yet, then sure, it might be a problem. So just don't use the metamagic reduction traits. +3 spell level is a good trade and will keep it from being used every encounter. If you're still worried about it, you could lean towards Concussive or Rime metamagic instead of Dazing. Concussive in particular would essentially buff your whole party without making anybody feel left out or making the GM feel like they have to twiddle their thumbs for a round.
Concussive spell looks nice, since the penalties it applies don't directly remove the enemies' ability to do anything. Sadly, there aren't many spells that deal sonic damage that don't already impose a stronger debuff, like stagger or stun. Rime spell is good too, since my group has a lot of melee and probably won't use kiting tactics against entangled foes. Thanks for the tips.
I'm interested to hear people's stories on what happened in games that had hardcore lockdown characters, whether it worked well and wasn't disruptive, or whether it made the game dull.
In my experience, competent use of a Dazing metamagic rod makes encounters boring.
I'm interested to hear people's stories on what happened in games that had hardcore lockdown characters, whether it worked well and wasn't disruptive, or whether it made the game dull.
They spammed it every encounter. They were successful most encounters. They made encounters even easier and more boring than they otherwise would have been.
It depends on the campaign. If the GM throws undead, constructs, oozes, etc., at you then the Daze is useless.
It's slightly less abusive than spamming Summoning spells, which can also trivialize encounters.
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It's fun once or twice, and after that it makes the game incredibly boring for other players and as the GM.
As such, I actually banned Dazing Spell metamagic (both feat and rod) as well as Rime Spell. Rime Spell isn't as bad, but the lack of save, low spell level increase, and the effectiveness of the entangled condition just turned many encounters into a breeze. Especially if there was any distance between the enemy and the party. Any ranged characters could pick them off before they had a chance to engage, and squishy characters were never at any risk because melee could always intercept them before they reached the party. Not as bad as dazing, but still very annoying.
There's nothing specific in the rules to say that undead, constructs or oozes are immune to daze. A GM might rule that they are (on the grounds that 'daze is mind-affecting' or 'daze is a form of stun') but that's basically a house-rule.
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I recall one specific example in a high level module. The party has been competently smashing everything on the way to the boss fight. When they finally get there, the main boss has his squad of defenders waiting. I think that this fight should be at least a little enjoyable.
Then the sorcerer wins initiative and casts a dazing chain lightning. All seven opponents fail their saves. At that point I don't bother running any of the other fights as they are all lower cr encounters and I didn't feel like wasting everyone's time rolling dice for a foregone conclusion.
A one round dazing effect is alright. You're trading your action for theirs. A three to six round dazing effect is super powerful in the action economy.
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I recall one specific example in a high level module. The party has been competently smashing everything on the way to the boss fight. When they finally get there, the main boss has his squad of defenders waiting. I think that this fight should be at least a little enjoyable.
Then the sorcerer wins initiative and casts a dazing chain lightning. All seven opponents fail their saves. At that point I don't bother running any of the other fights as they are all lower cr encounters and I didn't feel like wasting everyone's time rolling dice for a foregone conclusion.
A one round dazing effect is alright. You're trading your action for theirs. A three to six round dazing effect is super powerful in the action economy.
Which module, out of curiosity? Any details you can provide? (Feel free to spoiler-tag as necessary.)
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Note to self: pray my group never finds this feat :-)
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Note to self: pray my group never finds this feat :-)
Note to Captain Yesterday: Be up front and tell your players (or advise your DM) why this feat won't/shouldn't be available in your game so that everyone can continue to actually enjoy the game.
Paizo puts out a lot of content. Some of it isn't that great. There's nothing wrong with excluding the bad material from your games to enhance everyone's enjoyment.
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Note to self: pray my group never finds this feat :-)Note to Captain Yesterday: Be up front and tell your players (or advise your DM) why this feat won't/shouldn't be available in your game so that everyone can continue to actually enjoy the game.
Paizo puts out a lot of content. Some of it isn't that great. There's nothing wrong with excluding the bad material from your games to enhance everyone's enjoyment.
I banned Persistent Spell and Dazing Spell. Nothing wrong with some banning.
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I'm not too worried, usually if it doesn't help them get the prettiest clothes (I.e. crafting feats) or make things go boom! They generally don't look too deeply into feats (feats are actually the aspect of the game they have the least interest in)
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I'm not too worried, usually if it doesn't help them get the prettiest clothes (I.e. crafting feats) or make things go boom! They generally don't look too deeply into feats (feats are actually the aspect of the game they have the least interest in)
I also take crafting feats for the purpose of having the prettiest clothes. ^_^
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*Shrug* Dazing spell in an AP would make it pretty boring unless massively rewritten.
Dazing spell in my homebrew mythic game *Grin* let the team keep up.
That aside, sorry memories, I would agree dazing spell the feat and rod would generally be disruptive and more so the higher the system mastery of the caster using it.
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I don't like dazing. It be one thing if it occurred for one round but more than that and the combat is just over. It isn't very different from a martial character who just kills the enemy except for when you start applying it to AoE spells. The biggest issue for me is how few things have immunity to this sort of effect (or the fact that this feat won't EVER be given to enemies because of its potential to just wipe a PC party.)
I think it be very interesting to make hard mode in PFS a more common option where feats such as this were on the NPCs. It make the game feel more natural if enemies could be expected to have similar options.
As a GM, I have to commend you for even asking the question as opposed to just abusing the Feat!
I'm going to be the controller/anvil/god wizard for my group. I will be an aasimar shaman grabbing battlefield control and buff spells from the wizard spell list via Arcane Enlightenment, and I'm the only full caster in the group. I'm not so concerned about overshadowing other players because I'm going to be playing a support role, but I am concerned about making the game boring, unchallenging, or frustrating for the DM.
Kudos to you for asking rather than spotting a potent option and demanding to be able to use it like a player with entitlement issues. The metamagic certainly could be trouble for certain campaigns, though I can imagine it not being an issue with certain other campaigns. If you're at all concerned, then it's probably a bad choice for your PC. You'll probably always be second guessing yourself when using it.
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In my opinion, stun/daze effects in RPGs (all RPGs, even CRPGs and MMORPGs) is lazy game design. There are dozens of other ways to affect combat in interesting, exciting, tactical ways without having to simply turn a monster (or PC) off for a few turns. At that point, the game isn't fun or strategic anymore; it's just wasting your time.