That is simply because PF does not account for injuries and ddisablement at all.You can literally go from perfectly fit and capable at 1 HP all day and suddenlyfall over bleeding out from a cat scratch, now White Wolf... now THEY took injuries to a whole new levelMost people are like... level 1 with no con bonus so acrually alot....And incredibly pathetic next to a high level Pathfinder martial.Absolutely. All that training, and all those missions, those dudes are serious badasses. I knew one once, a member of SEAL Team Six. Married my best friend's sister. I spent some time discussing his training with him. Very cool stuff. At the time I was teaching Karate and I knew without a doubt that this Seal could kill me in seconds with his bare hands and there was nothing I could do about it. he was truly impressive.
He was just a martial guy, just like Pathfinder fighters and such. Awesome. Amazing. Unbelievably deadly. But just a martial who would be incredibly pathetic next to even a low level Pathfinder spellcaster.
I don't know about that.
He could probably cripple someone for life with a single blow. How many high level martials can do that?
HP damage=temporary injury or death.
Permanent injury would be something like eye gouging or breaking someone's back (althoug that may kill them).
There's something for it now in Unchained. At 75% or less of total hp, you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls, saves, skill checks, ability checks, AC, and caster level. This penalty goes up by 1 at 50% or less of total hp and then again at 25% or less of total hp. It's...not much, but it's a step in the right direction towards making getting hurt more interesting.
well resisting wounds is obvious, your stamina, you took a beating from the fall but you push through it, sure you should have several broken bones, but you just won't let your body fall behind. luck is pretty easy as well. Now skill, that means you know exactly how to orient yourself to almost completely negate the fall or at least most of it where it no longer becomes lethal....
HP is an abstraction of how well you are doing in a fight. if you have more HP than your enemy then you are winning the fight(even if you're both at 100%), people can look at you two fighting and will say that you are winning. even if he has higher BAB and a bigger weapon it looks like you have the momentum. this doesn't require a check but has the perception DC equal to that of noticing them, so it's pretty easy and only difficult over long distance.therefore HP can be your ability to resist wounds, your stamina, or luck or any some such. when someone "hits" you, you are not necessarily hurt(unless you were hit by a poison or a touch spell, etc) but you did lose battle momentum, your enemy swung very well and placed you in a worse position than before or simply fatigued you slightly from hitting your defenses well. they also could have hit you straight in the face with a greatsword and you simply snarled at him as you took 3 damage thanks to DR or some such.
..That is basically how I have always understood the system. Not great at representing anything real, but reasonably well enough and playable system.
My comments are related to when you use that combat abstraction for non-directly combat things. Jump off a high cliff or fall into boiling oil. I can't see how those abstractions you mentioned help in surviving those type of situations.
Not major, but it is a thing for me.
You can get dropped while unconscious, paralyzed, feeble-minded, drained of every stat but Con down to 0, and mind swapped with a penguin (using a Magic Jar variant) and your body can still survive exactly as much as it could before you became a comatose penguin person.
You can get dropped while unconscious, paralyzed, feeble-minded, drained of every stat but Con down to 0, and mind swapped with a penguin (using a Magic Jar...well resisting wounds is obvious, your stamina, you took a beating from the fall but you push through it, sure you should have several broken bones, but you just won't let your body fall behind. luck is pretty easy as well. Now skill, that means you know exactly how to orient yourself to almost completely negate the fall or at least most of it where it no longer becomes lethal....
HP is an abstraction of how well you are doing in a fight. if you have more HP than your enemy then you are winning the fight(even if you're both at 100%), people can look at you two fighting and will say that you are winning. even if he has higher BAB and a bigger weapon it looks like you have the momentum. this doesn't require a check but has the perception DC equal to that of noticing them, so it's pretty easy and only difficult over long distance.therefore HP can be your ability to resist wounds, your stamina, or luck or any some such. when someone "hits" you, you are not necessarily hurt(unless you were hit by a poison or a touch spell, etc) but you did lose battle momentum, your enemy swung very well and placed you in a worse position than before or simply fatigued you slightly from hitting your defenses well. they also could have hit you straight in the face with a greatsword and you simply snarled at him as you took 3 damage thanks to DR or some such.
..That is basically how I have always understood the system. Not great at representing anything real, but reasonably well enough and playable system.
My comments are related to when you use that combat abstraction for non-directly combat things. Jump off a high cliff or fall into boiling oil. I can't see how those abstractions you mentioned help in surviving those type of situations.
Not major, but it is a thing for me.
skills stays with you(i explained even while paralyzed you still have outfitted your armor and equipment to make you very hard to get deadly wounds on you), luck stays with you, divine favor stays with you, your soul might be what effects your body to make it superb.
IIRC, the comics eventually explained that by giving Superman some Required Secondary Powers like extending a telekinetic field over anything he touches so that he can actually lift things with his super-strength instead of just ripping out a couple handfuls.Even as a kid Superman bugged me. Ok, he's really unbelievably strong. Doesn't matter. You can't lift up a building by putting your hand under the corner. That corner of the building would just tear off or crumble.I'll high-five you on that one. That's always bugged me when super-strength is handled like that.
I never heard about that before. I guess that works.
I never heard about that before. I guess that works.IIRC, the comics eventually explained that by giving Superman some Required Secondary Powers like extending a telekinetic field over anything he touches so that he can actually lift things with his super-strength instead of just ripping out a couple handfuls.Even as a kid Superman bugged me. Ok, he's really unbelievably strong. Doesn't matter. You can't lift up a building by putting your hand under the corner. That corner of the building would just tear off or crumble.I'll high-five you on that one. That's always bugged me when super-strength is handled like that.
yep they started explaining why certain things didn't happen liek square cube law and what not.
Most superhero stories are happening in THIS universe. They're not happening in a completely made-up world, they're saying "This happened on Earth." Thus, they are (supposedly) bound to how Earth works (or how the author understands Earth to work at the time). Thus, holding them to that standard is a matter of... wait for it... internal consistency. ;)
They're set on a planet that looks like ours and has the same name as ours, but in a universe where they have access to energies that we don't have. Wanting a superhero world to conform to our physical laws is like expecting a level 20 Fighter to be killed by a falling off a cliff.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Most superhero stories are happening in THIS universe. They're not happening in a completely made-up world, they're saying "This happened on Earth." Thus, they are (supposedly) bound to how Earth works (or how the author understands Earth to work at the time). Thus, holding them to that standard is a matter of... wait for it... internal consistency. ;)They're set on a planet that looks like ours and has the same name as ours, but in a universe where they have access to energies that we don't have. Wanting a superhero world to conform to our physical laws is like expecting a level 20 Fighter to be killed by a falling off a cliff.
If that's the setting, then I retract my statement. My whole point was that internal consistency of a given setting only requires modeling reality in whichever ways it claims to, and that failing to model reality in a manner in which the setting never claimed to model reality is NOT required for internal consistency.
I'm basing that on an Authority comic I once read where the heroes crash their spaceship on an alternative Earth that looks very much like our own and realise that most of their powers and technology don't work now because they can't access the 'higher energies' they need. It's just one writer's explanation.
If Thor is hanging out with a guy who draws his powers from gamma radiation and a guy who survived fifty years in an iceberg due to steroids, you probably shouldn't be taking the physics too seriously. But everyone has their personal "that just isn't plausible" limit. I know I do.
Aragorn, Conan, Fafhrd, John Carter, Elric, John Snow, King Arthur, and many more, did not have superhero powers.
I quibble more than a bit at your inclusion of John Carter and Elric. The former is immortal, can astrally project himself around the solar system, can jump hundreds of feet at a bound, is unbeatable in any sort of personal combat, and is so awesome that he can hijack armies of various races at will to do his bidding. He can even do stuff like teach himself to see invisible stuff.
These sound an awful lot like superhero powers to me.
Elric can gate in major gods. He carries two of the most powerful artifacts in existence, one of which is actually a demon lord in disguise. He temporarily gains the strength of everyone he kills -- and his kills include minor gods as a matter of course.
These sound an awful lot like demigod powers to me.
If only more GMs would hand out demonic artefacts to underperforming mundane PCs, there'd be a lot less disparity.
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If only more GMs would hand out demonic artefacts to underperforming mundane PCs, there'd be a lot less disparity.
"i'm really glad..."
"that I found this sword"
"it really is..."
"useful in different situations"
Yeah, if people want to play these low power games, just play E6... why ruin everyone else's fun when a perfectly legitimate rule set exists for the niche...Who is ruining anybody's fun?
You play Pathfinder. I play Pathfinder. We both have fun, right? There is nothing you do at your game table that ruins my fun. What are we doing that ruins your fun? Maybe it's these forums that ruin your fun? Maybe you spend so much time on the forums debating with people who disagree with you that maybe that's no fun for you anymore, and maybe you'd have more fun playing Pathfinder than debating about it.
In any case, if you play your game and don't worry about how I play mine, you might have more fun - because I certainly have no power to ruin your fun from my house....
I also am unable to see how my slight dissatisfaction with one aspect of the game impinges even slightly on your enjoyment of the game. Let alone ruining your fun.
... I haven't reached 5th level yet to gain that superpower...I started laughing at work when I read that and everyone in the office is staring at me.
Simple, all of the "that s%+#e dont make no sense" crowd make it harder for the "mundane" classes to do cool things because everything is "too wuxia" or "too superhero-y" for them... so to appease them, the classes are knee capped. In order for those of us who WANT warrior who do more than look like some rock em sock em robots to play what we envision we are forced to using so much 3rd arty stuff it isnt even PF anymore...
But if we gave high level martials cool things, we could play as we want and those who want "realism" can still play usong E6 rules (which doesny require lots of 3pp stuff)
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I quibble more than a bit at your inclusion of John Carter and Elric. The former is immortal, can astrally project himself around the solar system, can jump hundreds of feet at a bound, is unbeatable in any sort of personal combat, and is so awesome that he can hijack armies of various races at will to do his bidding. He can even do stuff like teach himself to see invisible stuff.
These sound an awful lot like superhero powers to me.
The bold part is incorrect. John Carter was able to jump straight up approximately 30' and broad jump around 100' because he was in a lower gravity environment. The stories about John Carter put him on Mars.
The bold part is incorrect. John Carter was able to jump straight up approximately 30' and broad jump around 100' because he was in a lower gravity environment. The stories about John Carter put him on Mars.I quibble more than a bit at your inclusion of John Carter and Elric. The former is immortal, can astrally project himself around the solar system, can jump hundreds of feet at a bound, is unbeatable in any sort of personal combat, and is so awesome that he can hijack armies of various races at will to do his bidding. He can even do stuff like teach himself to see invisible stuff.
These sound an awful lot like superhero powers to me.
if i'm correct, i believe that later stories get pretty weird...
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if i'm correct, i believe that later stories get pretty weird...The bold part is incorrect. John Carter was able to jump straight up approximately 30' and broad jump around 100' because he was in a lower gravity environment. The stories about John Carter put him on Mars.I quibble more than a bit at your inclusion of John Carter and Elric. The former is immortal, can astrally project himself around the solar system, can jump hundreds of feet at a bound, is unbeatable in any sort of personal combat, and is so awesome that he can hijack armies of various races at will to do his bidding. He can even do stuff like teach himself to see invisible stuff.
These sound an awful lot like superhero powers to me.
That is true. The final book written Edgar Rice Burroughs left john Carter and his princess on one of the moons of Jupiter and that moon had an atmosphere and native race of humanoid beings.
Also middle part of the 11 book series had a race of heads that enslaved a race of headless giants.
John Carter was able to jump straight up approximately 30' and broad jump around 100' because he was in a lower gravity environment. The stories about John Carter put him on Mars.
The stories about martial heroes put them on Golarion, or wherever, and there's no reason you can't contrive an equally silly reason to let them jump 100 feet.
See, the thing is that Burroughs wanted Carter to have superhuman strength and athletic prowess. That he attributed this to Mars' low gravity is a miniscule nod vaguely in the direction of realism.
If we want martial heroes in Pathfinder to have superhuman strength and athletic prowess, we can similarly give it to them, with nothing more than a miniscule nod vaguely in the direction of an explanation.
I also note how seductively easy it is to somehow ignore all Carter's other blatant superpowers in order to claim that his jumping is "realistic." Just like people focus on the fighter's lack of (Su) abilities and gloss over the fact that he can bathe in lava. That kind of a confirmation-biased viewpoint is a large part of the problem, I think.
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John Carter was able to jump straight up approximately 30' and broad jump around 100' because he was in a lower gravity environment. The stories about John Carter put him on Mars.The stories about martial heroes put them on Golarion, or wherever, and there's no reason you can't contrive an equally silly reason to let them jump 100 feet.
See, the thing is that Burroughs wanted Carter to have superhuman strength and athletic prowess. That he attributed this to Mars' low gravity is a miniscule nod vaguely in the direction of realism.
If we want martial heroes in Pathfinder to have superhuman strength and athletic prowess, we can similarly give it to them, with nothing more than a miniscule nod vaguely in the direction of an explanation.
I also note how seductively easy it is to somehow ignore all Carter's other blatant superpowers in order to claim that his jumping is "realistic." Just like people focus on the fighter's lack of (Su) abilities and gloss over the fact that he can bathe in lava. That kind of a confirmation-biased viewpoint is a large part of the problem, I think.
I never said that John Carter wasnt a "superhero" type character, your description of his astral projection and immortality was spot on. I just pointed out that part of your description was incorrect.
You feel the need for all characters in your fantasy setting to be "super-heroic/high-powered/anime-asque/etc" that fine and can actually be quite entertaining but it doesnt mean that has to be the way everyone plays/sees the game.
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Only above a certain level.John Carter was able to jump straight up approximately 30' and broad jump around 100' because he was in a lower gravity environment. The stories about John Carter put him on Mars.The stories about martial heroes put them on Golarion, or wherever, and there's no reason you can't contrive an equally silly reason to let them jump 100 feet.
See, the thing is that Burroughs wanted Carter to have superhuman strength and athletic prowess. That he attributed this to Mars' low gravity is a miniscule nod vaguely in the direction of realism.
If we want martial heroes in Pathfinder to have superhuman strength and athletic prowess, we can similarly give it to them, with nothing more than a miniscule nod vaguely in the direction of an explanation.
I also note how seductively easy it is to somehow ignore all Carter's other blatant superpowers in order to claim that his jumping is "realistic." Just like people focus on the fighter's lack of (Su) abilities and gloss over the fact that he can bathe in lava. That kind of a confirmation-biased viewpoint is a large part of the problem, I think.
I never said that John Carter wasnt a "superhero" type character, your description of his astral projection and immortality was spot on. I just pointed out that part of your description was incorrect.
You feel the need for all characters in your fantasy setting to be "super-heroic/high-powered/anime-asque/etc" that fine and can actually be quite entertaining but it doesnt mean that has to be the way everyone plays/sees the game.
Thats the way you see the game.
Thats the way you see the game.Only above a certain level.John Carter was able to jump straight up approximately 30' and broad jump around 100' because he was in a lower gravity environment. The stories about John Carter put him on Mars.The stories about martial heroes put them on Golarion, or wherever, and there's no reason you can't contrive an equally silly reason to let them jump 100 feet.
See, the thing is that Burroughs wanted Carter to have superhuman strength and athletic prowess. That he attributed this to Mars' low gravity is a miniscule nod vaguely in the direction of realism.
If we want martial heroes in Pathfinder to have superhuman strength and athletic prowess, we can similarly give it to them, with nothing more than a miniscule nod vaguely in the direction of an explanation.
I also note how seductively easy it is to somehow ignore all Carter's other blatant superpowers in order to claim that his jumping is "realistic." Just like people focus on the fighter's lack of (Su) abilities and gloss over the fact that he can bathe in lava. That kind of a confirmation-biased viewpoint is a large part of the problem, I think.
I never said that John Carter wasnt a "superhero" type character, your description of his astral projection and immortality was spot on. I just pointed out that part of your description was incorrect.
You feel the need for all characters in your fantasy setting to be "super-heroic/high-powered/anime-asque/etc" that fine and can actually be quite entertaining but it doesnt mean that has to be the way everyone plays/sees the game.
No that's the way the game is. At high level spellcasters *are* superheroic. The reason people see it that way is because it is. Thus you shouldn't play the non-superheroic characters at that level. At least not if some people are playing superheroic characters.
Even the Martials are super...In my game one player's 1/2 Orc fighter 9 regularly completes long jumps of 20-30 feat, while wearing full plate and carrying a heavy shield with no armor check penalty (all mithral).
That's not possible...in our world, not without superhuman strength.
I can rationalize it, or I can believe the In-Game evidence depicted above...and a lot of other similar instances.
For reference: The longest recorded jump= Mike Powell of the United States set the current men's world record at the World Championships in Tokyo. It was in a well-known show down against Carl Lewis, who also beat Beamon's record that day but with an aiding wind (thus not legal for record purposes). Powell's record 8.95 m (29 ft 41⁄4 in) has now stood for nearly 24 years.
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No that's the way the game is. At high level spellcasters *are* superheroic. The reason people see it that way is because it is. Thus you shouldn't play the non-superheroic characters at that level. At least not if some people are playing superheroic characters.Thats the way you see the game.Only above a certain level.John Carter was able to jump straight up approximately 30' and broad jump around 100' because he was in a lower gravity environment. The stories about John Carter put him on Mars.The stories about martial heroes put them on Golarion, or wherever, and there's no reason you can't contrive an equally silly reason to let them jump 100 feet.
See, the thing is that Burroughs wanted Carter to have superhuman strength and athletic prowess. That he attributed this to Mars' low gravity is a miniscule nod vaguely in the direction of realism.
If we want martial heroes in Pathfinder to have superhuman strength and athletic prowess, we can similarly give it to them, with nothing more than a miniscule nod vaguely in the direction of an explanation.
I also note how seductively easy it is to somehow ignore all Carter's other blatant superpowers in order to claim that his jumping is "realistic." Just like people focus on the fighter's lack of (Su) abilities and gloss over the fact that he can bathe in lava. That kind of a confirmation-biased viewpoint is a large part of the problem, I think.
I never said that John Carter wasnt a "superhero" type character, your description of his astral projection and immortality was spot on. I just pointed out that part of your description was incorrect.
You feel the need for all characters in your fantasy setting to be "super-heroic/high-powered/anime-asque/etc" that fine and can actually be quite entertaining but it doesnt mean that has to be the way everyone plays/sees the game.
Again thats you and others using those terms to describe certin levels, the game just describes a level 9 fighter as a level 9 fighter not a level 9 superheroic fighter.
...Again thats you and others using those terms to describe certin levels, the game just describes a level 9 fighter as a level 9 fighter not a level 9 superheroic fighter.No that's the way the game is. At high level spellcasters *are* superheroic. The reason people see it that way is because it is. Thus you shouldn't play the non-superheroic characters at that level. At least not if some people are playing superheroicThats the way you see the game.Only above a certain level.John Carter was able to jump straight up approximately 30' and broad jump around 100' because he was in a lower gravity environment. The stories about John Carter put him on Mars.The stories about martial heroes put them on Golarion, or wherever, and there's no reason you can't contrive an equally silly reason to let them jump 100 feet.
See, the thing is that Burroughs wanted Carter to have superhuman strength and athletic prowess. That he attributed this to Mars' low gravity is a miniscule nod vaguely in the direction of realism.
If we want martial heroes in Pathfinder to have superhuman strength and athletic prowess, we can similarly give it to them, with nothing more than a miniscule nod vaguely in the direction of an explanation.
I also note how seductively easy it is to somehow ignore all Carter's other blatant superpowers in order to claim that his jumping is "realistic." Just like people focus on the fighter's lack of (Su) abilities and gloss over the fact that he can bathe in lava. That kind of a confirmation-biased viewpoint is a large part of the problem, I think.
I never said that John Carter wasnt a "superhero" type character, your description of his astral projection and immortality was spot on. I just pointed out that part of your description was incorrect.
You feel the need for all characters in your fantasy setting to be "super-heroic/high-powered/anime-asque/etc" that fine and can actually be quite entertaining but it doesnt mean that has to be the way everyone plays/sees the game.
that's just semantics...we were talking about realism...and our own reality is the only basis for comparison we have. It's not super for Pathfinder...in PF super IS the norm.It's a point that many seem to vehemently deny. PC's regularly perform actions that would be impossible for us mere earthlings...not just Wizards either...everybody. Let's stop pretending PF is "realistic",it's not, it is Fantastic though :D
...No that's the way the game is. At high level spellcasters *are* superheroic. The reason people see it that way is because it is. Thus you shouldn't play the non-superheroic characters at that level. At least not if some people are playing superheroicThats the way you see the game.Only above a certain level.John Carter was able to jump straight up approximately 30' and broad jump around 100' because he was in a lower gravity environment. The stories about John Carter put him on Mars.The stories about martial heroes put them on Golarion, or wherever, and there's no reason you can't contrive an equally silly reason to let them jump 100 feet.
See, the thing is that Burroughs wanted Carter to have superhuman strength and athletic prowess. That he attributed this to Mars' low gravity is a miniscule nod vaguely in the direction of realism.
If we want martial heroes in Pathfinder to have superhuman strength and athletic prowess, we can similarly give it to them, with nothing more than a miniscule nod vaguely in the direction of an explanation.
I also note how seductively easy it is to somehow ignore all Carter's other blatant superpowers in order to claim that his jumping is "realistic." Just like people focus on the fighter's lack of (Su) abilities and gloss over the fact that he can bathe in lava. That kind of a confirmation-biased viewpoint is a large part of the problem, I think.
I never said that John Carter wasnt a "superhero" type character, your description of his astral projection and immortality was spot on. I just pointed out that part of your description was incorrect.
You feel the need for all characters in your fantasy setting to be "super-heroic/high-powered/anime-asque/etc" that fine and can actually be quite entertaining but it doesnt mean that has to be the way everyone plays/sees the game.
Exactly what would you call a person who can take a full spray from an assault rifle at close range, and shrug it off?
Not Superheroic. Really durable is not the same as tossing buildings, flying, and shooting deadly laser beams out of your eye.
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Exactly what would you call a person who can take a full spray from an assault rifle at close range, and shrug it off?
A cybered up Troll street samurai.
i dunno Anzyr, I just described Luke Cage in a nutshell. Adding in, of course, superhuman strength, but a 9th level fighter will probably have at least a 20 Strength by then, by hook or by crook. That's frigging Superheroic.
So, knowing that these inhumanly gifted warriors are capable of feats and derring-do that would cause normal people to be turned into a fine red mist, why do we insist on limiting them to things like 'I move more than five feet, and hit them once,' ?
Edit: Not that I'm saying you are, but it seems to be a common thread on one side of the debate.
i dunno Anzyr, I just described Luke Cage in a nutshell. Adding in, of course, superhuman strength, but a 9th level fighter will probably have at least a 20 Strength by then, by hook or by crook. That's frigging Superheroic.
So, knowing that these inhumanly gifted warriors are capable of feats and derring-do that would cause normal people to be turned into a fine red mist, why do we insist on limiting them to things like 'I move more than five feet, and hit them once,' ?
Edit: Not that I'm saying you are, but it seems to be a common thread on one side of the debate.
Oh I agree they shouldn't be limited. My point is more along the lines that Superman (a caster) could pulp Luke Cage, without author intervention. And that should not be the case if both are the same level.
There are alot of levels of "Super"...I guess i'd start at anything more than Captain America...since he's supposed to represent the maximum human potential. If Cap can't do it...it's superhuman (physical prowess wise)... Although I'm sure he's probably done some outlandish things in the comics over the years.
There are alot of levels of "Super"...I guess i'd start at anything more than Captain America...since he's supposed to represent the maximum human potential. If Cap can't do it...it's superhuman (physical prowess wise)... Although I'm sure he's probably done some outlandish things in the comics over the years.It depends on the writer and era. In some cases he's 'the peak of human potential' [basically Marvel Batman with less scheming/layers of contingencies] and in other cases he's chemically enhanced, with strength and agility roughly on par with Spiderman.
Wow, that's more variation than I would of thought...considering Spidey has Amazing strength and can bench press a bus.
Oh I agree they shouldn't be limited. My point is more along the lines that Superman (a caster) could pulp Luke Cage, without author intervention. And that should not be the case if both are the same level.i dunno Anzyr, I just described Luke Cage in a nutshell. Adding in, of course, superhuman strength, but a 9th level fighter will probably have at least a 20 Strength by then, by hook or by crook. That's frigging Superheroic.
So, knowing that these inhumanly gifted warriors are capable of feats and derring-do that would cause normal people to be turned into a fine red mist, why do we insist on limiting them to things like 'I move more than five feet, and hit them once,' ?
Edit: Not that I'm saying you are, but it seems to be a common thread on one side of the debate.
Superman ain't a caster; he's a monstrous humanoid with triple digit physical stats =P
Superman ain't a caster; he's a monstrous humanoid with triple digit physical stats =POh I agree they shouldn't be limited. My point is more along the lines that Superman (a caster) could pulp Luke Cage, without author intervention. And that should not be the case if both are the same level.i dunno Anzyr, I just described Luke Cage in a nutshell. Adding in, of course, superhuman strength, but a 9th level fighter will probably have at least a 20 Strength by then, by hook or by crook. That's frigging Superheroic.
So, knowing that these inhumanly gifted warriors are capable of feats and derring-do that would cause normal people to be turned into a fine red mist, why do we insist on limiting them to things like 'I move more than five feet, and hit them once,' ?
Edit: Not that I'm saying you are, but it seems to be a common thread on one side of the debate.
superman is ironically completely vulnerable to magic.
Eventually you get to that sort of speed where you could probably be allowed make a reflex save against regular attacks, or something similar. Hm, how would you represent super-speed in action economy and in AC?superman is ironically completely vulnerable to magic.Superman ain't a caster; he's a monstrous humanoid with triple digit physical stats =POh I agree they shouldn't be limited. My point is more along the lines that Superman (a caster) could pulp Luke Cage, without author intervention. And that should not be the case if both are the same level.i dunno Anzyr, I just described Luke Cage in a nutshell. Adding in, of course, superhuman strength, but a 9th level fighter will probably have at least a 20 Strength by then, by hook or by crook. That's frigging Superheroic.
So, knowing that these inhumanly gifted warriors are capable of feats and derring-do that would cause normal people to be turned into a fine red mist, why do we insist on limiting them to things like 'I move more than five feet, and hit them once,' ?
Edit: Not that I'm saying you are, but it seems to be a common thread on one side of the debate.
Almost.
He can still counter it with some of his powers [heat vision, frost breath, hand-clap typhoon...], mental martial arts discipline... he just can't tank it directly.
Same way you represent a god. You don't. Superman would be an un compatible force.
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So let me ask all of those who continually say that PC's are at a minium superheroic after 5th level. Is the way you play the game the 'One True Way' to play PF?
If not, then why when someone says they play PF a different way then you do, you come off as saying their playing the wrong?
At least that is what I'M getting from your posts.
If Superman is an alien...Wouldn't that make him some kind of Aberration?
His speed is also weirdly depicted, sometimes it's bullet time...like literally catching bullets. Other times he seems to just stand there and let stuff happen.
I think his bursts of speed would be like a "Speed pool" that he sometimes spends points from.