Need Help! Gunslinger damage is insane.


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So I've come to a very sticky situation in my PF game regarding balance. It's the case where one combatant skews entire encounters and how I have to plan them. The player isn't doing this on purpose, but the issue still persists.

Simply put, his damage output with a Gunslinger is nuts. He has an advanced firearm and Rapid Reload to get off multiple attacks without worrying about ammunition constraints. There are two major issues:

He increases damage with Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim almost "freely". Those feats are designed to add extra damage at the expense of accuracy, but his attacks all go to touch AC and thus always hit monsters of their CR unless he rolls a 1.

The second issue is Clustered Shots. Even with the above issue, damage reduction kept stuff under control. Now damage reduction is barely a factor.

Other people in the party can do a lot of damage, but usually when they do it requires some sort of movement across the map, loss in accuracy and AC to contend with, or requiring the target be evil in the case of the paladin. The gunslinger is doing crazy damage to everything, such that I now plan encounters around him.

The party isn't even that high of a level yet. The problem is that I'm not heavily experienced with D&D or Pathfinder, and encounters are more and more difficult to design. I want to see if I can get some suggestions to curb power in an appropriate manner so I planning challenging or fun encounters doesn't require either rigging things against the gunslinger or accepting he will kill anything they cross before the rest of the party has a shot at it.

Thanks ahead of time!


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If you are decided to adjust battles/combats just fot the gunslinger, without hurting the other party members performance, just exchange some natural AC for dodge bonus, getting same overall AC but harder to hit its "touch" AC.

Warning, this will girt the party a nice bonus if they catch them flat-flooded.

Another option is, if the real problem are clustered shots, to talk to your player and ask him to change that one feat.


Move a creature with reach and combat reflexes next to his character - he can either eat an AoO for each attack he makes and every time he reloads or he can take a move action to move more than a 5' step and not take a full attack action. Air elemental is my first choice.

Terrain & spells like wall of ice can also shut down ranged characters (like the gunslinger) pretty easily if they don't stick with the party. For that matter an occasional ambush on isolated party members (like the lone gunman) by a second group of baddies is not an unfair thing if the party often gets split up in combat.


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If you're playing in Golarion, it is an "emerging guns" setting. So right off the bat, he should not have any advanced firearms, which will help. When the gunslinger was first being designed, rather than attacks bypassing all armor and hitting touch, firearms had 'armor penetration", which bypassed armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses. One-handed firearms bypassed 2, while two-handed firearms bypassed 4. In addition, guns bypassed an additional point of armor per point of enhancement bonus on the weapon. This was taken out of the full game due to it bogging things down some, but this could help with preventing them from hitting the touch AC of 10 on monsters with 15 natural armor.

Hope this helps :)


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Since we're here in the Homebrew forum, I would consider discussing with the player tweaking Firearms.

Firearms are an odd duck...they're basically useless in the hands of a non-Gunslinger (basically being crossbows with really expensive ammo, which are really expensive themselves, and sometimes blow up...and crossbows suck already), but fairly devastating in the hands of one. Though, really, no moreso than a bow. There are quite a few bow builds out there that make a Gunslinger weep at the damage they can put out. It's more a psychological thing since Gunslingers work on the inverse of normal AC rules: AC gets LOWER for them as they level, not higher.

Consider changing firearms like this:

-They no longer attack Touch AC.
-They no longer have a Misfire chance.
-Replace the bit in Gun Training about Misfire with something else appropriate (a bonus to attack rolls like Weapon Training, perhaps)
-Implement the "Guns Everywhere" rules in regards to your Gunslinger (everything costs 10% of the listed price).

This puts them roughly on par with crossbows as-is, barring his Gun Training, which is the real clincher. If you have a problem there, you'd have an issue with any archer.

I personally would also add the following to guns and crossbows alike:

-They reload as a Free action. Just like bows do. They have no significant advantage over bows, so why do they need a Feat just to catch up?

This should sound like a fair trade-off to him. He gets an extra Feat, basically, but can no longer attack Touch AC (not really an issue given he's a Full BaB character, and his 4000 gold gun doesn't have a chance of blowing up when he rolls a 1.


Thanks everyone for feedback!

I do want to mention that I'm not looking to fix the system, just this game. I know general "archer" builds are strong and I won't contest or alter that.

So as far as using reach and magic to make walls works, that isn't a solution because all it amounts to is "continue planning encounters around the gunslinger" which I am doing but is draining and difficult since I lack a lot of experience and system mastery as a DM.

The bit about armor penetration though sounds very useful! Especially since I frequently see monsters with 10+ points of their AC coming from natural armor.

Essentially, either attacks on touch AC or Clustered Shots may have to go. Making him contend with normal AC puts meaningful drawbacks on Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim and reels in some damage. Removing Clustered Shots allows me to use DR as a balance point.

I am still up for other solutions, as well as comment on which of those issues (touch AC or Clustered Shots) is best to fix to alleviate my headache without ripping apart the character.


Have you tried comparing the damage the Gunslinger dishes out with a standart Longbow-wielding Fighter?

With just a Fighter that specialises in Longbow? because when you compare it to an absolute Core class and spec it sometimes puts things in perspective. Archers can also dish out very good damage, at range, and also almost always hit.

Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Deadly Aim, Weapon Spec, Weapon Training etc. also add up nicely.

Sometimes it helps put things in perspective.

Sczarni

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In general, there is numerous ways of making encounters harder without actually increasing CR.

What every ranged character hates is Soft Cover, Cover and Concealment. Although these effects grant just penalties in general, over long periods of time, it can be pretty effective because they can be found everywhere. It takes a good knowledge of rules however to successfully implement them but the best idea that I can give you, is to use common logic when designing encounters. Surely you have watched some movies where bad guys always attack from ambush, outnumber the party, use the terrain to their advantage, attack during night, etc. It can inspire you to create some really impressive encounters. The imagination has limits however and I am sure that you won't make every encounter to be impressive. In such cases, put pressure on the gunslinger either through combat or limited time required. A simple trip and a threatening mook near gunslinger can be sufficient to slow him down or several civilians might get in the way.

This is just general advice on tactics, so I am not sure if it might solve your problem really. Make sure that Gunslinger is applying the rules for ranged combat appropriately. Even at low level, there are -2 for Rapid Shot, -2 for Deadly Aim, -4 if he doesn't have Precise Shot, +4 to AC from Soft Cover and additional effects. I am pretty sure that your player isn't following one of the above rules. Even a gunslinger at lv5 should have a rough 50-60% hit chance with all the rules above.

Adam


A big fix would be to drop advanced firearms, and make some ruling on how many free actions per round the players get. Touch Ac and DR penetration happen, but its the sheer number of shots you won't be able to deal with in a couple of rounds. Also basing all encounters to battle a single player will run the game down fast. Taking away touch attacks will ruin the character for the player, clustered shots bumped to a higher level might be ok, but later in the game it is almost needed. The class balances with others with standard firearm, at least they are closer.


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So, I'll establish a couple things.

Comparing the gunslinger to a longbow fighter is useless. I don't have a longbow fighter. As mentioned, I don't care how it stacks up with the system, I care how it affects my table.

Next as far as rules go, I have used cover, soft cover, and the whole slew of penalties. Also yes, "there are things I could do", but I'm looking to tackle the situation without having to plan around this one player.

I don't want to punish a player for "being too good". But I don't deserve to be punished by having to do double duty planning encounters just because a writer wrote something incompatible for my table, and other players at the table don't deserve to be up staged all the time too.

I do understand that this amounts to an issue that comes back to the game system itself, but that's a problem bigger than I care to fix. I'm more concerned with the immediate effects on my game. Another issue that has made me worry is that I planned encounters for the party against enemies that also use firearms.

Using early firearms might have to be an option because of the short range to get touch AC to hit, though I'm wondering if it'll help enough. I'm considering just removing touch AC entirely but allowing the Deadeye Deed to still work for it, and not allow it for a Signature Deed later on, so hitting touch AC is much more limited but still possible, and useful for getting in some iteratives.

Sczarni

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I am still sceptical about this gunslinger doing such insane damage. Gunslingers have their own bag of problems when they use too many attacks, namely miss-fire and the cost of ammunition. Advanced firearms to tend to lessen the effects of "gunslinging" however, so it boils down that your player receives too much "bang for their buck" while other players do not.

It would help out if you could provide this character's statistics. Sometimes problems lie in other areas also invisible to you.

Also, one more advice. In time where guns are common, every common bandit would carry one and every common bandit would carry some sort of protection against it. There are spells that grant bonus to AC against firearm attacks. This wouldn't punish the player, this would be a fair play. You wouldn't see a police officer today walking naked against criminals armed with firearms, so why would this world be any different?

Adam


I'll see about getting some numbers off the sheet later. Ultimately, it's not even the amount of damage able to be inflicted, it's the reliability of it. Using Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot at level 8 for a -5 penalty should be a significant increase in damage, but when everything goes against touch AC it becomes irrelevant against most creatures.

Before Cluster Shot, I had mitigated this with some use of DR time to time, but even that is sort of a band-aid. And if I took Cluster Shot away, it would really hurt his potential to damage monsters while still allowing enemies to hurt the PCs with guns just as well.

I do appreciate all of the advice, even if it seems like I didn't need some. I guess I have been "handling it" and probably can continue to, at the expense of encounters starting to look like forced situations.

As for the world, guns actually aren't very common. So far gunslinger have come off as a rare thing, though they will encounter enemies with guns during the next adventure. Still, I think it would be really hard to stuff anti-gun amulets on things like monsters they encountered over the course of the mission.

I can just keep using walls, or spells, or reach weapons, or anti-ranged features, or whatever in fights, but at that point I have to just continuing targeting the player just for his character. If I don't do that, I leave other players feeling rather underwhelming. And ultimately it's not that the player wanted to damage the game, he just wanted to play a character who used a cool gun.

I want to be fair to him and my players, but frankly I rely a lot on not having to hand-made the numbers behind encounters to be able to run the game with a busy schedule and limited planning time.


Advanced firearms is most likely a part of your problem. If guns are not common how come he have advanced firearms that is reccomended for a game where every body have guns.

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I reworked firearms in my campaign because touch attacks are a broken game mechanic. I removed misfires and touch attacks from them, made Dex-to-damage an innate feature, and rewrote that overpowered Musket Master archetype. They still do a ton of damage, but now firearm attacks are no longer guaranteed hits.


The simple reason is that be wanted a mysterious wanderer with a cool sniper rifle, and I was (and still am) down with the concept of that. I'm also not sure at this point I can "safely" remove advanced firearms since he's been using the same gun the whole game, and I have established that while rare they do exist.

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Advanced firearms are insanely powerful, especially with the Ultimate Combat touch attack shenanigans.

In response to a player asking how I'd implement a sniper rifle, I homebrewed a +1 distance musket that grants a +5 competence bonus to Stealth while sniping and allows the wielder to spend a grit point to extend the range of sneak attack to within the first range increment of the weapon.


DeathmatchFM wrote:
The simple reason is that be wanted a mysterious wanderer with a cool sniper rifle, and I was (and still am) down with the concept of that. I'm also not sure at this point I can "safely" remove advanced firearms since he's been using the same gun the whole game, and I have established that while rare they do exist.

You have a problem and i thinking is safe to say that advanced firearms are it. You Can try to find another fix make it once pr round pehaps. But a talk with the player where you tell him that you ditent realize, when you gave premission, that it was a bad Call, is IMOP the Best solution.

Sczarni

Sniper rifle or not, he should not have advanced firearms if guns aren't common. It's not exactly your fault. Many GM's often give too much to the players without thinking of implications of giving such treasure. I myself gave a intelligent flying carpet to a player A once. Player A refused it due to XY reasons and player B took it and dominated gameplay as being an archer bard with constant flight and full-attacks. It was my mistake really but I learned on it.

My suggestion, don't remake firearms due to a single item. Talk with the player and remove his advanced firearm rifle and replace it with appropriate firearm. The concept of sniping includes usually a single attack for high damage at large distance. At this point, he is just abusing your good will for himself, although I suspect, unintentionally. Two-handed firearms should likewise be harder to reload (full-round action by default). Firearms should have their own problems. Once you remove them, they are simply better in every aspect. It's easier to replace one item then hundreds of encounters. Your pick.

Adam


So, I would consider tackling the advanced firearms issue, except that we've been playing for a year. It's very late for me to change my mind on something like that at this point. While advanced firearms are rare, they're definitely already established to exist.

Edit: One thing I could consider is just putting the reload time at a full-action by default, so that it's still a move action with Rapid Reload. It drops him down to one attack a round which solves all of the issues (single-hit guaranteed for high damage) but would probably be an even harsher nerf than removing touch AC and essentially changing guns into glorified crossbows.

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Nerfing firearms so you can only fire them once per round is actually a bigger nerf than not making them touch attacks. Martials rely on iterative attacks. It's why my house rules let Musket Master get free Vital Strike progression in place of free action reloads.


Well, I don't have a Musket Master so I'm not really concerned with that archetype. And I agree, changing reload speed is much more painful than removing touch AC. Tentatively, this is what I plan on doing:

1) Firearms attack regular AC.
2) Remove misfire entirely.
3) Allow Deadeye to make a touch AC attack (can't be discounted with Signature Deed or True Grit).
4) Replace Quick Clear with a Deed that says "while the gunslinger has at least 1 grit, he can reload his firearms as a free action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity".
5) Let my player trade in Rapid Reload for another Feat.

Please let me know if that sounds reasonable, or if I should attempt to compensate more.

Edit: I may also be discounting firearms with the 10% bit.

The Exchange

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Absorbing touch, blade barrier, blink, blur, break, campfire wall, chill metal, cloak of winds, control winds, darkness, dimension door, dust of twilight, entropic shield, expeditious excavation, fog cloud, gaseous form, interposing hand, invisibility, mirror image, phase door, prayer, project image, protection from arrows, protection from good, pyrotechnics, rampart, repel metal or stone, resilient sphere, rusting grasp, shatter, shield of faith, shrink item, silent image, sleet storm, statue, teleport object, transmute metal to wood, unwilling shield, wall of thorns, warp wood, wind wall and all the spells similar to them present various ways for enemies to defend themselves or take the gun out of action. (Plus, of course, any direct attack, debuff, forced second roll, and any compulsion that forces the sniper into melee.)

Feat-wise, Deflect Arrows is specified as working (and therefore presumably the sword-and-board equivalent Missile Shield would as well). Shot on the Run or Spring Attack can be used to leap out of safe areas, strike and return before the sniper can shoot. Dirty trick, disarm, sunder and steal maneuvers (the latter against the ammo container) are all possibilities. The sniper needs personal space to do his thing, so Step Up and similar feats can be an unpleasant surprise. Minions with Bodyguard (or, if they're loyal enough to their boss, Harm's Way) can be useful to powerful foes.

Also - and this is strictly house-rule territory - since a gun relies on 'nonmagical fire', you could house-rule that holding an action to cast a spell that drenches a firearm user (hydraulic push, etc.) causes an automatic misfire (or, less drastically, increases the misfire number by whatever you think is reasonable.)

My last comment: from a narrative point of view, it's only a matter of time before somebody tries to steal that gun. If it's that unique, and doing that much damage, skilled thieves (whether working freelance or employed by some villain) would definitely consider it worth stealing. You should only introduce this complication once to avoid the appearance of picking on the character, and while the thieves should use the best strategy you can come up with, be sure to give the players at least a chance of foiling it. Should you succeed, the gunslinger will have to build a replacement, non-advanced firearm, so your problem will be alleviated.

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DeathmatchFM wrote:

Well, I don't have a Musket Master so I'm not really concerned with that archetype. And I agree, changing reload speed is much more painful than removing touch AC. Tentatively, this is what I plan on doing:

1) Firearms attack regular AC.
2) Remove misfire entirely.
3) Allow Deadeye to make a touch AC attack (can't be discounted with Signature Deed or True Grit).
4) Replace Quick Clear with a Deed that says "while the gunslinger has at least 1 grit, he can reload his firearms as a free action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity".
5) Let my player trade in Rapid Reload for another Feat.

Please let me know if that sounds reasonable, or if I should attempt to compensate more.

Edit: I may also be discounting firearms with the 10% bit.

Have you looked at my firearm/gunslinger rework?


Remember ammo cost, misfire rules, and that touch attacks only work within one range increment and you're usually fine. Play the NPCs intelligently, too. It shouldn't take long for them to realize he's a threat, charge him, and remove the weapon through sunder or disarm. Otherwise you're metagaming to try to protect him.


Thank you for the list, Lincoln. I'll definitely look at it in the future. Though it isn't quite far enough, since it still forces the issue of "need magic to survive guns" and now I have to shove makes in every fight.

As for the weapon being stolen, I've contemplated a storyline along those lines, but thus far a fitting situation hasn't come up.

Cyrad, I did take a look at your rules. I don't have to add Dex-to-damage for all guns since I've only got one person using them (who already gets it), and I think I would prefer the free action reloads without sucking down a Feat to bonuses to some skills. Archers are powerful and I'd like to compensate the gunslinger for that at least a bit.

I was also challenged to make a archery fighter of the same level. If I used the same stats as the gunslinger, the archer does on average 2 more damage per full attack, but has +2 accuracy (Manyshot is the Feat I used to boost this damage).

Of course, if I boost the archery fighter's strength to say, 18, he's suddenly doing 14 more damage a hit a round. This is pretty significant, but I do plan on allowing the gunslinger to be able to hit touch AC by spending grit, and there are other useful features the class has to offer (more skills, some free bonuses, etc). I think the extra damage is likely a fair trade for all you'd lose as a gunslinger. But ultimately, I don't have an archery fighter so I'm not concerned with fine-tuning the system.


Looking a bit closer, it seems there is still some trouble up ahead. The Expert Loading and Lightning Reload Deeds don't function at all if I remove misfire and allow quicker reloading. However, Lightning Reload is already useless with Rapid Reload and an advanced firearm, and Expert Loading doesn't matter either.

Removing misfire also means I have to consider a change to Stranger's Fortune, the Mysterious Stranger Archetype's ability to ignore misfires.


I don't know if its a solution, but I'm building a gothic old west setting (for publication), and every class has firearms, and every archetype as battered pistol, amateur gunslinger, half the archetypes have deadeye/quick clear, even the bad guys wield guns. There's a Shootist (magus archetype) that can deflect, even stop and send back to shooter a bullet fired at him (ala Matrix). Firearms of my setting include revolvers, repeating rifles, cartridge ammo and sticks of dynamite.

With all the guns everywhere, its hardly fitting the primary evil in this world are aberrations and some of them are immune to bullets...


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This is why once advanced firearms are involved I give everyone guns and let everyone know that this game is a gunfight so don't bring knives. Suddenly Combat Expertise became a thing so i started allowing third party feats and armor to make this a little less silly. Large monsters with a lot of natural AC quickly start becoming extinct.

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DeathmatchFM wrote:

Looking a bit closer, it seems there is still some trouble up ahead. The Expert Loading and Lightning Reload Deeds don't function at all if I remove misfire and allow quicker reloading. However, Lightning Reload is already useless with Rapid Reload and an advanced firearm, and Expert Loading doesn't matter either.

Removing misfire also means I have to consider a change to Stranger's Fortune, the Mysterious Stranger Archetype's ability to ignore misfires.

Misfires are still in my house rules. They simply only apply when a firearm is damaged or gets loaded by a non-proficient wielder. Expert Loading gets replaced by No Time To Bleed. Lightning Reload is still useful on two-handed early firearms. Not terribly a bad thing when you already given him one of the strongest guns in the game.

The whole point of advanced firearms is if you want to play a Western campaign where bows and other ranged weapons are pretty much obsolete.


The more I look at your house rules, Cyrad, the more I'm considering them wholesale. What sort of play testing have you had with them?

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DeathmatchFM wrote:
The more I look at your house rules, Cyrad, the more I'm considering them wholesale. What sort of play testing have you had with them?

I've run them as part of my campaign since August of last year. I made them in response to one of my players finding them really unfun since firearms can either make a character gamebreaking if they're lucky or useless if unlucky. It won't stop your player from doing lots of damage, but that's the whole point of ranged builds. However, it will stop him from autohitting everyone, which is what I think you want to eliminate anyway. From my playtesting, I do feel like I should have nerfed the critical modifier since x4 is pretty ridiculous. Then again, my player dual-wields pistols.


The easiest fix if you want to change the firearms rules is not to ditch touch AC entirely but to only allow it at short range. Early firearms with touch AC at 1 range increment and range increments of 20'/40' work fairly well to give you a concept of what ranges might work. "Reward" the player with touch AC attacks when he gets into the right position and "punish" him with normal AC attacks when he is too far from the front line.

Sczarni

I realize that you already said that it's too late to remove the advanced firearms, but contemplate on this thought; you are changing the game system because of a single item that shouldn't be there. I realize that you have your GM world like every one of us, but I am just trying to spare you from future trouble. Exchange that gun for something else. Grant player something in return if you feel bad about it and your troubles should go away.

Adam

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The fix I use is making them work like guns in real life. If mud gets in them or water then they do not work, that is literally all you have to do to make guns less useful. Then he has to clean it in combat to unjam it. Also if enemies see a guy doing a ton of damage with a weapon, have them attack the weapon(sunder/targeting it with spells/etc) as they would do that and you aren't building encounters around the player, just making the monsters use common sense(which they tend to lack)


How about this.

Tell your player you've made a mistake giving him the advanced firearm and let him know for game balance to make things more fun for everyone it would be good to trade it in and then do so.

No rules trades needed. Just talk.


Helcack wrote:
The fix I use is making them work like guns in real life. If mud gets in them or water then they do not work,

What if he uses a gun that isn't garbage like an AK


I'm hesitant to take away the advanced firearm because I know the limitations on a standard firearm are harsh enough that with reload speeds at what they are, I'm not sure he'd get off more than one attack a turn. That's a much more painful than losing touch AC, I think.

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In my firearm rework, the Musket Master specializes in dealing heavy damage in a single shot via early Vital Strike progression.

However, I think letting him keep the rifle would be fine if you implement my houserules. He basically just be an archer that wields a weapon that's slightly better than a longbow, but has much more expensive ammo.

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CWheezy wrote:
Helcack wrote:
The fix I use is making them work like guns in real life. If mud gets in them or water then they do not work,
What if he uses a gun that isn't garbage like an AK

I was going to reply to this with information, but I realized that this can't be serious. Anyway OP just add water to his black powder once in a while through spellcasters and you're fine. There are even spells that specifically target guns to make them stop working.


I wouldn't worry about it in the long run. Yeah, they are going to hit a lot, but the damage is going to be outpaced by other martials at your table eventually.

A lot of the tactical advice here is good. Terrain. Reach and AOO on the gunslinger. I mean a consistent source of damage is always going to be a primary target. Use casters, put him in a stinking cloud and see how well things go.

But I think as time goes along, the gunslinger will look less impressive.

The Exchange

"The gunslinger approaches! Minions, load the water balloon catapult!!!"


I think am going to have to make a change. The gunslinger has a 95% chance to deal damage with any given attack, way more than PCs should have against enemies of their own CR (or even CR+3).

Yes, I admit 100% that there is stuff I could do without changing the rule. But I have BEEN doing this and it's a pain and it isn't fun for me to plan encounters with anymore. I have to literally contrive situations or force magic into encounters that I otherwise wouldn't use it with.

I'm not exactly sure what going to do yet. Taking away the advanced firearm is devastating. Taking away touch AC attacking seems the way to go, but I'm going to think on it more before I make a major change.

That aside, I've gotten some great advice in this thread, so thank you to everyone who has been helping me figure this out.

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Lincoln Hills wrote:
"The gunslinger approaches! Minions, load the water balloon catapult!!!"

Now, you'll want the Powder Horn to protect your powder from water, as well as some dry load ammo just in case.

Edit: Didn't read the full thread, but the double guns are just ridiculous. I suggest pretending they don't exist.


My Solution to OP players is to send them against a Terrasque and a level 20 conj wiz.


Helcack wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Helcack wrote:
The fix I use is making them work like guns in real life. If mud gets in them or water then they do not work,
What if he uses a gun that isn't garbage like an AK
I was going to reply to this with information, but I realized that this can't be serious. Anyway OP just add water to his black powder once in a while through spellcasters and you're fine. There are even spells that specifically target guns to make them stop working.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENn8UG4SDl4

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Helcack wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Helcack wrote:
The fix I use is making them work like guns in real life. If mud gets in them or water then they do not work,
What if he uses a gun that isn't garbage like an AK
I was going to reply to this with information, but I realized that this can't be serious. Anyway OP just add water to his black powder once in a while through spellcasters and you're fine. There are even spells that specifically target guns to make them stop working.

Those anti-firearm spells are really awful. They only target ammunition, one bullet/powder at a time. Most of them just inconvenience the wielder. It's better to use a spell to disarm or break the gun or use a fog spell to block his vision.

My gunslinger player hates those spells despite me never using them. He hates what they stand for. His attitude is "Oh, you made the firearm rules so broken that you have to invent spells specifically to counter firearms? And you didn't even do a good job of it either. There's no point for these to exist other than just give a middle finger to gunslingers."


Rynjin wrote:

Since we're here in the Homebrew forum, I would consider discussing with the player tweaking Firearms.

Firearms are an odd duck...they're basically useless in the hands of a non-Gunslinger (basically being crossbows with really expensive ammo, which are really expensive themselves, and sometimes blow up...and crossbows suck already), but fairly devastating in the hands of one. Though, really, no moreso than a bow. There are quite a few bow builds out there that make a Gunslinger weep at the damage they can put out. It's more a psychological thing since Gunslingers work on the inverse of normal AC rules: AC gets LOWER for them as they level, not higher.

Consider changing firearms like this:

-They no longer attack Touch AC.
-They no longer have a Misfire chance.
-Replace the bit in Gun Training about Misfire with something else appropriate (a bonus to attack rolls like Weapon Training, perhaps)
-Implement the "Guns Everywhere" rules in regards to your Gunslinger (everything costs 10% of the listed price).

This puts them roughly on par with crossbows as-is, barring his Gun Training, which is the real clincher. If you have a problem there, you'd have an issue with any archer.

I personally would also add the following to guns and crossbows alike:

-They reload as a Free action. Just like bows do. They have no significant advantage over bows, so why do they need a Feat just to catch up?

This should sound like a fair trade-off to him. He gets an extra Feat, basically, but can no longer attack Touch AC (not really an issue given he's a Full BaB character, and his 4000 gold gun doesn't have a chance of blowing up when he rolls a 1.

I do like this, though it might be abit of work replacing all the deeds that involve misfires....

Grand Lodge

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I would go with Will saves, terrain, high touch AC and mobile creatures. Force them to make will saves, stop creating open encounters, most high touch attack creatures have the same AC so that puts everyone on the same footing and have the creatures get up in his face. Gunslingers tend to have a low will and poor melee attacks. Remember there are more options in combat then hitting things with a stick. I also have the creatures focus shift to the "super star destroyer", if he is far out pacing everyone else then the baddies should shift focus (like the players). You can have them run away and regroup and respond to the gun slinger.

I will say you have to watch out, sometimes optimized characters will shine in combat and that may be OK with the party. Depending on the group. If the rest of the table is still having fun then it might be fine. Remember you can have traps, puzzles and social encounters where that character will basically be standing guard while the others shine. Personally my characters tend to sub optimal and I am ok with the combat monster ripping up everything as long as there are other things to do. :)


The urge to make a snarky comment and link all the posts that people told me I was crazy for thinking exactly this situation would come about is almost overwhelming, but I'll refrain.

The only change I would make is to remove Touch AC. Make guns work against normal AC. The Gunslinger will still have the advantage over an archer because they use DEX to hit and for damage, so don't have to split the stats and will be MILES better than a crossbow who can add maybe INT damage if they only fire once. I think that will solve the majority of your problems.

Silver Crusade

DR, DR shuts down Gunslingers fast

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