Things you would change about Pathfinder


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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First of all - I like Pathfinder. It's a good system. But - like any other - there are things I would change.

For this thread - I'd like people to explain things that they would do differently from Pathfinder if they were designing a similar but new system from the ground up. Not balance - I don't want this to become yet another martial/caster disparity thread - but in the core mechanics. And for this - we can ignore unintended consequences (hence my mention of a new system from the ground up).

A few of mine -

One thing that I would do is have Armor = DR. I really like the vibe that it gives - but slapping it on top of the current system doesn't work as the whole system would need to re-balanced around it.

Make the counter-spelling viable. It's a subsystem which I really like the vibe of, but it's almost always a bad idea. Perhaps allow any spell from the same school/level to work, and if a caster is counter-spelled they can't cast for a # of rounds equal to the level of the spell countered. *shrug* Again - probably wouldn't work slapped on top of the current system.

Don't have every skill/check be off of a d20. For things like Knowledge checks the d20 works great - but for many things a 3d6 would be better. Ability checks for one. Should a character with a Str of 8 really be half as likely to break down a DC15 door as a 18 Str character? Jump checks for another. A few others.

Split the Dex score into Dexterity & Agility. Dexterity = hand-eye coordination/accuracy/etc while Agility=tumbling/dodging etc. A lot of the arguments about dex for more accuracy vs unblanaced stat could be solved by splitting the two - though again - wouldn't be viable at this stage of the game

*Shrug* - as I said - I like Pathfinder - I just thought it'd be interesting to see what other people's changes would be.


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curb the power of wizards and make them a bit more specialist in given areas of magic. basically nerf the current "There's a spell for that!" issue that makes wizards so powerful. I would probably also redesign higher level spells to make them less game breaking.


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Make martial characters better. Add level to damage for Fighters, for example. As a start.

Nerf casters a bit, boost martial classes a lot.

Give monks the ability to flurry AFTER moving.

Have flexibility on saving throws for non-casters (allow fighters to gain bonuses as they level, say +1/three levels added to save of their choice).

Increase creature hitpoints by at least doubling them.

Clarify rulings or even number them, so when describing things like swift actions, call it Rule #34, so later if a book has an ability that allows for more than one swift action, it states: This ability specifically is allowed, despite rule #34.

Reduce penalties for armor, say medium reduces speed by 5, heavy as it is...

Add an extra hit die to PCs at level one.

Make weapons generic i.e. light does 1D4, one handed does 1D6, two handed does 1D10 or similar-maybe a system for designing weapons where it is balanced, not where one is optimal and all other choices are suboptimal (like spiked chain in 3.5).

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Remove wealth/gear as an element of character progression. Turning gold into a second XP pool is the root of a lot of Pathfinder's issues, both in the system itself and in the community at large.

Establish a paradigm of nonmagical fantasy; that is, set an expectation that "fantasy" means exceeding reality, and magic is not the only way to get there. Or, if not that, then make sure every class has equal access to magic, rather than having some ooze with it while others have none. Either way, the point is that every character should be capable of being a "fantasy" hero who has gone beyond reality, rising to meet fantastic threats. Whatever the prerequisite to fantasy is, every class needs to have it. Either give everyone magic, or allow nonmagical fantasy.

Just those two things are the bulk of my issues with Pathfinder.

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alexd1976 wrote:
Add an extra hit die to PCs at level one.

Yeah - top heavy HP was one of the things I really liked about 4e.

In a similar vein - make it so that characters don't get exponentially more powerful as they level. Perhaps a level 10 character could take on two or three level ones at a time without using up too many resources - not take on two or three dozen without breaking a sweat (some classes far more than that).


Honestly I might eliminated spell levels 7-9. However that is just my liking for the original d20 Modern showing through.


I would probably dump the whole 'level' system altogether.

Something like Fuzion or Interlock still allows for getting better, without sudden jumps in power and massive differences in power between best and worst in a given career...

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alexd1976 wrote:

I would probably dump the whole 'level' system altogether.

I like point-buy systems in theory - but as much as people complain about 'trap' options in Pathfinder - point-buy systems are 95% trap options. Balancing between various combinations becomes impossible unless you go the 4e method of making nearly everything the same. (lame!)

Perhaps a hybrid - at level X of class Y you get Z points to various pools of abilities in addition to baseline HP/defenses etc. might work - but I've never seen pure point-buy work well.

Edit: Also - it makes it assign challenges for a level-less group.


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Well a number of the changes I would like are tied to our house rules.

I would put limitations on utility spells, specifically those that warp economies. Light,Dancing lights, Mending would be boosted in level.
Stabilize would not exist as a spell. Read Magic would not be a spell but an actual language.

Remove counter-spelling

Remove the concept of confirming critical hits.

0 level spells would have a cast limit per day of 4 + the primary caster stat's bonus. So a 17 int wizard can cast 7 0 level spells per day and that's it.

Evocation spells would all increase by 1 die step. They are too weak being stuck doing 2nd edition damage against current day HP. Fireball should be feared at 5th level, not be stuck waiting until it can be stacked with metamagic feats.

Skill points: classes with 2+ int would all increase to 4+ int

I would like to see monks re-designed with something like domains for clerics but based on styles.

I would like to see multi-classing fixed for caster combos, specifically a caster's spells should be cast with the caster level equal to their character level. So a F3/W4 would only have the spells of a 4th level wizard but when cast would go off as if the caster was 7th level.

Undead should be draining XP, not this laughable negative level crap.
For example a Wight should drain 400 XP, Specters: 700 xp, Vampires: 800+100 per HD over 5.

Crossbows should be able to have Str ratings like bows.

I would trash and replace both the wealth by level and challenge rating systems. Both have done nothing but enforce a "right way" to play the game.

I would make permanent magic items cost Xp to craft with 3 ways of paying the cost. (without spelling out the fine details) Direct loss by the crafter, slowly draining xp from victims, researching exotic components that substitute in part or wholly the xp cost.
Expendable items like scrolls and potions would not cost xp.
(we are trying out this system in our next campaign)

I would like to see prestige classes that actually deserve the name. Difficult to qualify for, Non dip-able (by fiat rule that once selected you cannot level in another class until complete)

I would undo the design philosophy that druids have to sacrifice melee if they want to be good casters and vice-versa.

Well that's enough for now. Honestly it doesn't matter though. We just house rule the game to make it fit our style of play.


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I agree that Pathfinder remains the best system to use. I also agree that it could be further improved. Because experienced players like so many options it is easy for beginners to feel overwhelmed. I like the idea of a tiered class system.

Tier one basic classes level to unlock Tier two advanced classes which level to finally unlock prestige classes. I would keep a modest number of basic classes with each subsequent tier branching into more and more options.

Maybe it is naive to hope that a system might be devised which allows mechanical advantages to come with leveling up that do not also complicate game play but a tiered class system might offer that solution.


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I really like the concept of the points pool that some of the later classes get -- Grit, Arcane Pool, Panache, Inspiration, Stamina (from unchained), Fervor and so forth. I would rewrite the system so that the core classes (Fighter, Paladin, Wizard, etc.) all have some kind of pool like that they can pull from.


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Well it would be funny to go "I spend a smite point." I am also perplexed why anyone would want to go away from cantrips at will and counter spelling.


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If I were to redesign it, it would end up looking much more like GURPS.

Although Pathfinder has improved over earlier D&D based games, I still find the restrictions on character creation get in the way of my creativity. I much prefer point based systems such as GURPS or Hero System.

I play Pathfinder because of Pathfinder Organized Play. It allows me to fit games into my schedule much easier than a campaign does.

If I were to list changes I would make, they would start with:


  • If there is a trait for something, there should be a feat for it that is twice as good.
  • Either completely do away with class skills or make it so you can choose them when you take a class. The class determines how many you can choose within a category.
  • Change skills to bell curve so that you are more likely to do an average job.
  • Get rid of feats that are trap options.
  • Make martial feats more flexible and generally scalable.
  • Split combat from non-combat feats and give them out in separate pools.
  • Change it so that the bow doesn't totally dominate ranged combat.
  • Try to make it so that you can basically build Bloodrager or other hybrid classes with normal multi classing rules rather than requiring the creation of a new class. Since 3.0 any multi classing of a spell caster had been badly hurt by the caster level not progressing when you take other classes.

I've backed SKR's Five Moons RPG since I liked some of the flexibility he talked about putting into his game.

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David Neilson wrote:
I am also perplexed why anyone would want to go away from cantrips at will and counter spelling.

It's funny that one of my main points was improving counter-spelling to the point of viability. It's interesting to see the very different perspectives. Though it seems like most of Cinderfist's houserules are primarily to give Pathfinder the vibe of earlier D&D editions.

Frankly - as it stands getting rid of counterspelling wouldn't do much. I can't think of a time when I've seen anyone actually use it.


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Well yes, I mean its no surprise that one of the suggestions is "Make it like it used to be." Also I have found the dispel magic counterspelling tends to work fairly well.

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David Neilson wrote:
Well yes, I mean its no surprise that one of the suggestions is "Make it like it used to be." Also I have found the dispel magic counterspelling tends to work fairly well.

Really? I mean - sure it can kinda work. But at the level when you have a 50% chance with Disple Magic - that means that you're using up your turn to have an even chance of shutting down an equal level caster's turn. Or - you could just ready an action to nuke them and force a high concentration check with likely at least the same failure rate - plus it hurt them.

*shrug* To each their own.

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I don't think I would change the system too much. What I would certainly do is work on getting the terms and vocabulary consistent and clearly defined. I would also work on eliminating what is sometimes referred to as legacy language. Things like, "instantaneous."

I might work on looking at systems and sections of the rules that didn't get much attention or reworking when Pathfinder was created. Environmental hazards, for example, could use a little love and adjustment.

I don't think I would mess with the classes or races at all. I am actually pretty satisfied with them.

Skills could become more useful, but the Unchained book had some great ideas behind those.

Action economy adjustments might be a great idea, and Unchained also had great ideas on what to do there.

If I had to do something major it would be designing the game so that you could start playing super simple, like Beginner Box rules, and slowly adjust the game over the course of a long term campaign to become more and more complex as you see fit.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
David Neilson wrote:
Well yes, I mean its no surprise that one of the suggestions is "Make it like it used to be." Also I have found the dispel magic counterspelling tends to work fairly well.

Really? I mean - sure it can kinda work. But at the level when you have a 50% chance with Disple Magic - that means that you're using up your turn to have an even chance of shutting down an equal level caster's turn. Or - you could just ready an action to nuke them and force a high concentration check with likely at least the same failure rate - plus it hurt them.

*shrug* To each their own.

A good point, but I usually leave the counterspell by hitpoint damage to the fighter. Also this works on things that are only sort of casters, demons get tons of spell like abilities you do not want to go off but without terribly high caster levels. Also this is biased since most of my characters that use coutnerspell are divine and usually do not have the same level of ranged damage spells that arcanists have.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:


One thing that I would do is have Armor = DR. I really like the vibe that it gives - but slapping it on top of the current system doesn't work as the whole system would need to re-balanced around it.

Split the Dex score into Dexterity & Agility. Dexterity = hand-eye coordination/accuracy/etc while Agility=tumbling/dodging etc. A lot of the arguments about dex for more accuracy vs unblanaced stat could be solved by splitting the two - though again - wouldn't be viable at this stage of the game

Ever play a game where armor is DR? Many creatures simply cant hurt you- and vice versa.

This would hurt Dex based PC's.

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DrDeth wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:


One thing that I would do is have Armor = DR. I really like the vibe that it gives - but slapping it on top of the current system doesn't work as the whole system would need to re-balanced around it.

Split the Dex score into Dexterity & Agility. Dexterity = hand-eye coordination/accuracy/etc while Agility=tumbling/dodging etc. A lot of the arguments about dex for more accuracy vs unblanaced stat could be solved by splitting the two - though again - wouldn't be viable at this stage of the game

Ever play a game where armor is DR? Many creatures simply cant hurt you- and vice versa.

This would hurt Dex based PC's.

I was in no way suggesting either be added to the current game, even as a houserule. See bolded sections. However, if balanced with them in mind from the ground up, they'd both be doable.


I am currently playing in a home game of Numenera where armor is damage reduction. It works alright I suppose, but the game is built around the assumption, and honestly I have not run into anything that can not at least ping me.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:


One thing that I would do is have Armor = DR. I really like the vibe that it gives - but slapping it on top of the current system doesn't work as the whole system would need to re-balanced around it.

Split the Dex score into Dexterity & Agility. Dexterity = hand-eye coordination/accuracy/etc while Agility=tumbling/dodging etc. A lot of the arguments about dex for more accuracy vs unblanaced stat could be solved by splitting the two - though again - wouldn't be viable at this stage of the game

Ever play a game where armor is DR? Many creatures simply cant hurt you- and vice versa.

This would hurt Dex based PC's.

I was in no way suggesting either be added to the current game, even as a houserule. See bolded sections. However, if balanced with them in mind from the ground up, they'd both be doable.

I have played in games where armor as DR is part of the system. After a bit, combat gets ridic. Guys in great armor simply have no fear. They simply can't take damage.

Tunnels & Trolls is a perfect example, but there are others.


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Where to start. For a hypothetical Anzyrfinder:

1. Reign Casters into more fixed roles. No all spell school learning Wizards.
2. Rework problem spells and reduce narrative driving spells.
3. Buff martials and allow for reality breaking abilities starting at 7th level.
4. Give martials Book of 9 Swords/Path of War style attacks and abilities. Additionally add narrative driving martial abilities.
5. Rework the action system.
6. Make high level skill uses able to break reality. Escape Artist your way through Walls of Force and eventually Planes of Existence. Use Heal Checks to remove status conditions and eventually return life to the recently dead.
7. Making multiclassing a consistent power progression, regardless of combination.
8. Kill off Iterative attacks (martial attacks and abilities would cover this).

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DrDeth wrote:

I have played in games where armor as DR is part of the system. After a bit, combat gets ridic. Guys in great armor simply have no fear. They simply can't take damage.

Tunnels & Trolls is a perfect example, but there are others.

I haven't played those - but that sounds more like in-game balance than an issue with Armor=DR as a general rule.

I have played Chluthutech, and it has Armor=DR, and it's not an issue. Now - combat in general in Chluthutech is too swingy for my taste (awesome fluff though) - but armor as DR isn't an issue that I have with the system.


Does Armor as DR still add Armor Bonus to AC?


I hate the charging rules. It only applies when you have an absolutely straight line with nothing in it. It makes charging really difficult to set up except for flyers. I like 4e's rule.

4e Rules wrote:

Action: Standard action. When a creature takes this action, it chooses a target. Figure out how far away the creature is from the target—even counting through squares of blocking terrain—and then follow these steps.

1. Move: The creature moves up to its speed toward the target. Each square of movement must bring the creature closer to the target, and the creature must end the move at least 2 squares away from its starting position.
2. Attack: The creature either makes a melee basic attack against the target or uses bull rush against it. The creature gains a +1 bonus to the attack roll.
3. No Further Actions: The creature can’t take any further actions during this turn, except free actions. A creature’s turn usually ends after it charges. However, it can extend its turn by taking certain free actions.


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Actually. The name. For beginners the name Pathfinder is not self-explanatory enough, compared with D&D where people could read the name and say 'well, I guess the game is about dungeons and dragons', Vampire: The Masquerade ('hmmm...there might be vampires involved') etc. etc.
but that's about it
the rules are what they are and while I personally prefer d% systems rulewise and think d20 as it is might be somewhat broken, Pathfinder does it better than most d20 systems


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I find the revised action economy in Unchained an intriguing concept. Would like to see this more fully implemented.

Still really enjoy the game. It fits our group well and we have a great time playing it with houserules and without.


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1.) Scrap CMB/CMD and Attack Rolls/AC as separate systems. You now have a combined defense against all sorts of attacks that require a d20 roll to resolve. You can now Grapple as well as you can swing a sword, and vice versa.

2.) Eliminate the need for magic items. Make them a cool extra, not something your character requires to function.

3.) Scrap the "1 is auto-fail" and "20 is auto-success" rules. Maybe implement a "degrees of failure/success" rule so a 1 gives you a -5 and a 20 gives you a +5, or some other commensurate benefit.

4.) Both reduce the narrative power and skill obsoleting nature of spells, and provide a similar level of power (to the new status-quo) to non-casting classes. Skill Unlocks are a good start, if only 99% of them didn't suck so hard.

5.) Do something about multiclassing. It needs to be a viable option beyond dipping. I'm not sure how this one would be accomplished while still making single classed characters just as attractive, however.

6.) Allow for more mobile combat. Things like Spring Attack and Ride-By/Fly-By attack should be core options, not something you need to spend oodles of useless Feats to gain access to.

7.) Eliminate nasty feat chains. The only time a Feat should chain into another one is if it grants a new, exciting, powerful option, not "I need to eat 4 Feats just so I can spend a 5th to hit a bunch of dudes in a circle" or "I need 3 Feats to hit people with a Whip good".

8.) Likewise, improve Feats as a whole. Feats are much, much, MUCH less frequently gained than spells...should that not suggest they should be more powerful? As-is most Feats (especially Combat feats) are on par with the effect of a 1st level spell. On a good day.

9.) Also similar to the above, all of the "Take -X to add +Y" Feats like Power Attack and Combat Expertise should be core options. Really, anything that sounds like "Why do I need a Feat to do this?" (and they're usually pretty clear what they are) should just be a rules option like Fighting Defensively. This includes "Improved Combat Maneuver" Feats. You shouldn't need a Feat to Grapple someone, and you certainly shouldn't need two Feats and 13 Int to trip a man.


Rynjin wrote:

1.) Scrap CMB/CMD and Attack Rolls/AC as separate systems. You now have a combined defense against all sorts of attacks that require a d20 roll to resolve. You can now Grapple as well as you can swing a sword, and vice versa.

2.) Eliminate the need for magic items. Make them a cool extra, not something your character requires to function.

3.) Scrap the "1 is auto-fail" and "20 is auto-success" rules. Maybe implement a "degrees of failure/success" rule so a 1 gives you a -5 and a 20 gives you a +5, or some other commensurate benefit.

4.) Both reduce the narrative power and skill obsoleting nature of spells, and provide a similar level of power (to the new status-quo) to non-casting classes. Skill Unlocks are a good start, if only 99% of them didn't suck so hard.

5.) Do something about multiclassing. It needs to be a viable option beyond dipping. I'm not sure how this one would be accomplished while still making single classed characters just as attractive, however.

6.) Allow for more mobile combat. Things like Spring Attack and Ride-By/Fy-By attack should be core options, not something you need to spend oodles of useless Feats to gain access to.

7.) Eliminate nasty feat chains. The only time a Feat should chain into another one is if it grants a new, exciting, powerful option, not "I need to eat 4 Feats just so I can spend a 5th to hit a bunch of dudes in a circle" or "I need 3 Feats to hit people with a Whip good".

8.) Likewise, improve Feats as a whole. Feats are much, much, MUCH less frequently gained than spells...should that not suggest they should be more powerful? As-is most Feats (especially Combat feats) are on par with the effect of a 1st level spell. On a good day.

9.) Also similar to the above, all of the "Take -X to add +Y" Feats like Power Attack and Combat Expertise should be core options. Really, anything that sounds like "Why do I need a Feat to do this?" (and they're usually pretty clear what they are) should just be a rules option like Fighting Defensively. This...

These are all great ideas. I hearby declare them Pappy approved.


I like your idea about armor as DR and I will ad to it the piecemeal armor from Diablo d20 (head, shoulders, torso, legs, foot, gauntlet [shield replaces armor from gauntles], belts boots, arms, capes and such).

4 magic ring instead two.

No more metamagic feats (they could add difficulty to the concentration when your preparing it instead costing you spell slots)

Less feats, having 1000+ feats is no good at all (CMD/CMD feats for bull rush and so, maybe they must be just one feat).

Weapon giving you Speed bonus to initiative (Dagger +2 Greatsword -2 and or so).

Spell system: all the game have changed since 1970 to date, all but spell system. I dont want more forgetting spell system.

Weapons and armors with durability having importance in the round per round.

More balanced monsters, they are weak as hell

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Rynjin wrote:
1.) Scrap CMB/CMD and Attack Rolls/AC as separate systems. You now have a combined defense against all sorts of attacks that require a d20 roll to resolve. You can now Grapple as well as you can swing a sword, and vice versa.

I've thought something along those lines before - but I actually think that it would mesh better if Armor is DR. Then if you want to disarm someone you have to hit their defense +5 or some such as disarming is more difficult than merely hitting them, but armor shouldn't keep you from being disarmed or tripped.


* AC to scale with level like BAB. All of the good sword fights show blocks and parries, which are impossible (after the nerf of Crane style). And spending a swift action to parry one attack doesn't scale with iterative attacks.

* 3d6 instead of d20, so the probability distribution is more normal.

* crossbows to have a game mechanical reason to explain why they replaced the longbow and armor in real life.

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much of my wish list was included in 5E but;

1. Everyone MAD and no more "use x instead of y"

2. WBL not assumed and magic items in leveling are gone.

3. Bound Accuracy

4. nerf casters/spells

5. Modular design


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Pan wrote:


1. Everyone MAD and no more "use x instead of y"

Interesting. I would prefer something of the opposite, myself.

Make everyone SADer. Or at least DAD.

Monks Dex/Wis, Rangers Str or Dex/Wis, Paladins Str/Cha, Fighters Str/Int, Wizards Dex/Int, and so on.

Then make all their mechanics work off those two. Monks can attack/damage with Dex, Wizards need Dex for Casting Defensively or maybe for Concentration checks for spells with Somatic components, stuff like that.


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Rynjin wrote:
Pan wrote:


1. Everyone MAD and no more "use x instead of y"

Interesting. I would prefer something of the opposite, myself.

Make everyone SADer. Or at least DAD.

Monks Dex/Wis, Rangers Str or Dex/Wis, Paladins Str/Cha, Fighters Str/Int, Wizards Dex/Int, and so on.

Then make all their mechanics work off those two. Monks can attack/damage with Dex, Wizards need Dex for Casting Defensively or maybe for Concentration checks for spells with Somatic components, stuff like that.

AKA the Legend method with a Key Offense Modifier and Key Defense Modifier.


I was thinking of Diablo 3 when I said that, but sure, that's exactly what I was thinking of in mechanical terms.


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Oh good, no one's said the developers yet.


Rynjin wrote:
Pan wrote:


1. Everyone MAD and no more "use x instead of y"

Interesting. I would prefer something of the opposite, myself.

Make everyone SADer. Or at least DAD.

Monks Dex/Wis, Rangers Str or Dex/Wis, Paladins Str/Cha, Fighters Str/Int, Wizards Dex/Int, and so on.

Then make all their mechanics work off those two. Monks can attack/damage with Dex, Wizards need Dex for Casting Defensively or maybe for Concentration checks for spells with Somatic components, stuff like that.

I think more people agree with you than agree with me (and Pan), but I fully agree with Pan on this point. Any stat you dump should have consequences for dumping it, regardless of your class (although of course for any given class some stats will mean more than others; you can be a dumb Barbarian or a weak Wizard, but the opposite shouldn't work so well).

I'd greatly limit, in that regard, "use X instead of Y." I wouldn't completely eliminate it. Weapon Finesse, for example, makes sense, because as far as the chance of hitting both Str and Dex would normally matter. Str is good as the default (because Dex is more useful in other ways), but at the cost of a feat you can change it to Dex. However, no Dex-to-damage. Dumping Str means you won't hit as hard, period. Other "use X for Y" usually shouldn't be possible, either.

Similarly, lots of people want to nerf casters, focusing on damage output and ignoring the squishiness factor. There is one nerf I'd use, but only the one, which is to make them also much more MAD: Bonus spells would always be Int-based (more Int, you can control/remember more spells), while save DC's would always be Cha based (raw power). Concentration checks would always be Wis-based. The one thing that would depend on the class' "casting stat" would be the stat that has to be at least 10 + the spell level to cast a spell. That, of course, is the absolutely mandatory stat.

Everyone being MAD would mean NPC's would have to be less powerful at any given CR, of course. That's fine. Most monsters could remain as they are and just be given a higher CR. Some might be weakened and keep the same CR.

Some other things I'd do if I could:

1) No PrC's (or at least none that require multiclassing or specific feats for entry). Most PrC's could be remade as archetypes, and the others as new classes.

2) Make dipping worthless (which would allow more class features to start at lower levels). My best idea on how to do this, though some idea may be better, is that if you multiclass, you only get features from the lower level class if it's at least half the level of the higher level class.

3) Shorter feat chains and no "entry feats," notably Combat Expertise, but also Improved Unarmed Strike for some things that aren't Unarmed Strikes; and even Power Attack, which isn't as bad of an "entry feat" because it's certainly a useful feat, is still a prerequisite for too many other feats. However, since I believe in MAD, keep the Int requirements for feats under Combat Expertise, etc..

4) Don't set it up so that some magic items are practically mandatory (you know the ones-- headbands for mental stats, belts for physical, ring of protection, cloak of resistance....) Maybe just raise the price to be very, very high for those items. Again, if that's done, NPC's have to be weaker at a given CR...which could be done.

5) Simply make it clear in the skills section that "No real life human has even 10 ranks in any skill, and most real life humans have at most 5 in their best skills, so if a very high bonus allows superhuman results, that's because it is a superhuman degree of skill." Then add some things, when possible, to aim for with really high skill bonuses. I once saw a thread in which someone discussed this, and for example, a DC 50 Perform skill check might allow a performance so great that even marauding orcs stop to wipe tears from their eyes from the performance's poignance. The note would also help with people who are, as in another thread, bothered by what people can accomplish with really, really high Stealth.

That's enough for now....

Silver Crusade

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There are a lot of different ideas I have, but I'd like to note that I wouldn't necessarily want all these in the same system, they are to be taken as individual suggestions.

Complete rehaul of spellcasting, make it more like psionics with a spell pool that requires points to achieve different effects.

Make spellcasters more powerful but more focused (fold "need to have" spells like read magic/detect magic/etc into a generalist school, then force wizards to pick a single school and only allow them to cast their school or generalist spells, allow feats and whatnot to broaden it a little as you progress)

Let martial classes do cooler stuff. By the teens your fighter should be able to do crazy reality bending stuff.

Perception and sense motive should be class skills for everyone...honestly the whole "class skill" thing kinda bugs me...honestly, the whole "skill" thing kinda bugs me too...let's just go with a big skill overhaul.

Round file spring attack, everyone should be able to do that by default. Fly-by and ride-by too, that stuff should just be something you do.

Either make feats better than they are or give feats more often (every other level at least)

Make magic more powerful, but make it more dangerous...anyone ever play the Wheel of Time d20? Something similar to overchanneling, you can cast bigger badder stuff, but run the risk of doing great harm to yourself.

Put HP gain on a curve, lower levels should gain more HP each level than higher characters. And scale AC by level as well, way it is now eventually your dedicated combat guys will only miss on a 1.

Allow mages to work in concert to achieve bigger or more interesting effects.

Weed out all the trap options. Combine existing suboptimal options to make viable ones (for example, combining Improved Sunder/Disarm/Trip/Grapple).

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Make weapons generic i.e. light does 1D4, one handed does 1D6, two handed does 1D10 or similar-maybe a system for designing weapons where it is balanced, not where one is optimal and all other choices are suboptimal (like spiked chain in 3.5).

I like the idea behind this, but I think I'd reduce it to "weapon groups" (1-handed blades, 2-handed blades, polearms, etc.) and then give each group advantages and disadvantages, but keep the damage fairly standardized. That way the katana or warhammer user isn't penalized for flavor, but there's still a bit of variety.

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Undead should be draining XP, not this laughable negative level crap.

For example a Wight should drain 400 XP, Specters: 700 xp, Vampires: 800+100 per HD over 5.

I would make permanent magic items cost Xp to craft

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Pathfinder XP is irritating enough to track and calculate as it is. Turning it back into currency would be terrible. Making magic items more difficult to make is fine, but XP isn't the way to do it.

While I'm on the subject of XP, the whole experience system needs to be wiped and redone. Standardize the XP gains a bit, chop off a whole bunch of zeroes. Make it simpler.

It's late, and that's all I've got right now. Might come back later and add some more.

EDUT:

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Similarly, lots of people want to nerf casters, focusing on damage output and ignoring the squishiness factor. There is one nerf I'd use, but only the one, which is to make them also much more MAD: Bonus spells would always be Int-based (more Int, you can control/remember more spells), while save DC's would always be Cha based (raw power). Concentration checks would always be Wis-based. The one thing that would depend on the class' "casting stat" would be the stat that has to be at least 10 + the spell level to cast a spell. That, of course, is the absolutely mandatory stat.

Ooooo...I like this.


Pan wrote:

much of my wish list was included in 5E but;

1. Everyone MAD and no more "use x instead of y"

2. WBL not assumed and magic items in leveling are gone.

3. Bound Accuracy

4. nerf casters/spells

5. Modular design

The trouble with throwing out the assumptions concerning magic items is the way they're so much a part of saving throw progression. On one hand you're nerfing casters and spells; on the other you're nerfing saving throws - and the latter are already poor at higher levels.

So, what would I do.

Increase hit points at first level, perhaps by making them Con + Hit die. Decrease dramatically the rate at which they increase, no Con bonus and no more than 5hp/level for any class.

No more BAB or AC. Attack and defence are resolved by opposed skill rolls, with the degree of success the primary determinant of how much damage is done. Use armour as DR. Dex-based characters will be hard to hit; heavily armoured ones will take less damage when they are.

Similarly, base spell-casting and spell defence on skill rolls.
When you're throwing a Fireball at a group of goblins you're making an Evocation skill roll and they're defending with their Reflex skill. Casters will have areas they're good in and others they're not.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

I would probably dump the whole 'level' system altogether.

I like point-buy systems in theory - but as much as people complain about 'trap' options in Pathfinder - point-buy systems are 95% trap options. Balancing between various combinations becomes impossible unless you go the 4e method of making nearly everything the same. (lame!)

Perhaps a hybrid - at level X of class Y you get Z points to various pools of abilities in addition to baseline HP/defenses etc. might work - but I've never seen pure point-buy work well.

Edit: Also - it makes it assign challenges for a level-less group.

Arguably off topic, but go check out the Fuzion system, VERY interesting, and free to download.

Scarab Sages

1. Increase the amount of negative hit points characters can take before dying. Add half of your constitution score per character level. At levels 1-3 you go into a fight, probably one or two members of the party get knocked out. That changes the dynamics and makes you think. Getting back into the fight is merely a healing spell or two away. After level 5 or so, if you are below zero hit points, you are probably dead. The game becomes much more deadly. There is no room for goofy antics or ideas that are "so crazy they just might work". No, at higher levels, it's all about killing everything as quickly and efficiently as possible. Once you roll initiative, it's kill or be killed.

2. Give monsters more Hit points and less damage. A monster that can kill you in one hit is not challenging, it's just plain dangerous. Now I just make cheese characters that only care about AC and damage. Once, I cared about what cool spell-like ability the villain would bring out. I would let him get a hit on me to see what kind of interesting debuff I would have to overcome. No longer! Now I kill on sight. I act swiftly and decisively. I deal as much damage as my cheese build will allow, because if I do not, I will parish. I long for the challenge of learning my opponent's abilities as I fight it and devising a clever way of defeating it. Instead I live in fear, and must focus all my creativity toward new and more potent cheese.

3. Give casters more spells (especially at lower levels). I feel like I never have enough spells when I play a caster. A first level wizard is basically a crossbow user with three whopping spells. Imagine if a barbarian could only swing his axe three times per day. That would be unacceptable. You shouldn't have to wait until level 10 to start having fun. If you're afraid this would unbalance combat, then just give the caster extra spells that can only be used outside of combat, Flavor spells. I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to enhance the story by casting a spell, but I didn't because I didn't want to be useless in combat.

Sovereign Court

subway rat wrote:
3. Give casters more spells (especially at lower levels). I feel like I never have enough spells when I play a caster. A first level wizard is basically a crossbow user with three whopping spells. Imagine if a barbarian could only swing his axe three times per day. That would be unacceptable. You shouldn't have to wait until level 10 to start having fun. If you're afraid this would unbalance combat, then just give the caster extra spells that can only be used outside of combat, Flavor spells. I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to enhance the story by casting a spell, but I didn't because I didn't want to be useless in combat.

I thought that was the main reason why they game each arcane school a spell-like ability usable 7-8 times a day at level 1. (And also - the extra 2 spells/day was a big edge sorcerers got @1.)

Though I could definitely see utility spells separate slots or some such being cool. *shrug* Like many things in this thread - I wouldn't want to slap it onto the current system, but it seems interesting.


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I would go quasi classless. There would still be base systems, but it would be possible to hybridize at the start and most class abilities would also be available via a feat-like system. There would be no traditional multiclassing.

The combat system would be based on move + full attack.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

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I'd work on eliminating the rules that are basically one-off tangents to the system.

Example: arcane spell failure. It exists only in the situation that a wizard or sorcerer decides to cast spells while in armor. It's a rule that handles what amounts to a corner case in play and which doesn't have any other application elsewhere. Seems to me that it could be cut entirely and replaced with something like a caster needing to make a concentration check if casting in armor he isn't proficient with.

Sovereign Court

Rynjin wrote:
Pan wrote:


1. Everyone MAD and no more "use x instead of y"

Interesting. I would prefer something of the opposite, myself.

Make everyone SADer. Or at least DAD.

Monks Dex/Wis, Rangers Str or Dex/Wis, Paladins Str/Cha, Fighters Str/Int, Wizards Dex/Int, and so on.

Then make all their mechanics work off those two. Monks can attack/damage with Dex, Wizards need Dex for Casting Defensively or maybe for Concentration checks for spells with Somatic components, stuff like that.

See this is one of my least favorite design paths. Id sooner just get rid of ability scores all together than design classes to run off only two of them and ignore the rest. At that point they serve nothing more than offense and defense sliders.

On topic I forgot stat caps, I like them. It helps accomplish getting rid of magic item necessity and allows rolling stats to be a good option again like it used to be.


1) Steal the class design from Legend, with a few tweaks. You build your own class by picking a chassis and then three "tracks" of class features, with a strong recommendation to have one each of Offense, Defense and Utility. For example, a Barbarian Rage or Alchemist Bombs would be offensive tracks, Bardic Performance and Druid Wildshape are utility, while... there's not a lot of good stuff for Defense currently, would need to add options. Chassis would be Full BAB with six skills per level and access to a single magicrelated track if desired; 3/4 BAB with eight skills per level and access to one magic track or four skills per level and two magic tracks; or a 1/2 BAB with the option to take all magic tracks. Everyone gets two good saves. This allows far greater flexibility in class design and opens up all sorts of build options.

2) Replace the Vancian casting with Spheres of Power. Each magic track grants a single Sphere and a total of seven talents across your levels. You must have at least one SP to use a spell, even if it costs nothing.

3) Remove the need for feats to use options like Power Attack or Combat Expertise, Maneuvers and other options that should just be available. Allow feats to scale up instead of needing chains. Allow feats to stack on certain actions, such as a Springing Vital Whirlwind Cleave attack.

4) Armor as DR and bounded accuracy. Iterative attacks apply as normal but the accuracyof a given attack maxes out at +5 BAB plus other modifiers. So a twentieth level fighter has four attacks at +5 plus modifies from strength, training, etc. You may always make all iterative attacks with a standard action, Full Attack is no longer a thing.

5) Remove WBL and the majority of items. Allow one or two items to each PC, and let them scale.


Following 5ed for how skills are used.

Clarify what is a condition.(i.e. sleep) and what it will allow you to do. Not use only descriptive text to cover situations that will arise.

Clean up feat chains. Make them so they are either shorter or place only level restrictions on them. (I.e. power attack at 1st and Vital Strike at 3rd), no pre-reqs.


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My first thoughts:

1. Simplify things a lot. Do we really need 20+ types of modifiers? How about we just cut the bulk of them down to Aracane or Divine and be done with it. Do we really need a dozen or more ways to trigger attacks of opportunity? Do we really need 5+ action types?

2. Skill system overhaul. Not that the current one is bad (I preferred 3.5 personally) but they need to look at the skill system and decide what it's actual purpose is. Does it encompass everything a character knows? Does it encompass only specialized knowledge/skills and ignores mundane stuff? Right now I feel like it is a mishmash of the two with no clear vision for what it is. Lastly, they need to come up with some high level use for skills. Characters with high level craft skills should be able to craft basic magic items (and not at levels 15+ but at levels 10+ or 7+). Characters with high level Perception or Stealth should be able to spot invisiible things or disappear while in plain sight. After level 10 most skills are useless so lets give them some real use and make them worth investing in.

4. Feats - my initial inclenation is to just get rid of them. Feats are one of the things I've come to dislike the most with the system since they are a complete crapshoot and balancing them is impossible. Most of the combat feats should be things martials are just capable of doing (like trying to disarm without an AoO) and the remainder just serve to make casters better. That said, I would probably just massively overhaul them and strip out the bulk of them. Lets give martials some trully interesting options as feats.

5. Scrap the ability scores and replace them with the modifiers. Why do we generate a number just so we can generate another number? Why not just generate the second number directly? In a system where you roll attributes and then never use them for anything other than generating a modifier they should just be gotten rid of.

6. Saving throws - replace the existing ones with attribute based saving throws. It puts too much emphasis on three attributes.

That's what I have off the top of my head.

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