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This came up in a recent game:
Character A had Character B pinned with the aid of his multiple animal companions each offering +4 aid bonus to his CMD (to a total of something like DC 12 million to escape). Character A then used his animal companions to "Coup de Grace" Character B arguing that while pinned Character B was helpless.
The pinned condition does not state that a character is helpless but does state that the pinned character is "tightly bound" and the helpless condition says "A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy." In this case, does this make a pinned character helpless and thus eligible for a Coup de Grace, or should we assume that since the pinned condition does not explicitly state that the character is "helpless" that they are not eligible for a Coup de Grace?
The conditions both list similar (but differently worded) penalties for the condition. Helpless states that "A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target)." and pinned states "A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class." The similar penalties seems to imply that they are much the same but the lack of an explicit statement of helplessness in the pinned condition and the different wording seems to imply that they should be different.
I am on the fence about the issue myself and I have seen very convincing arguments in posts from others that favor both sides of the debate. We made an on the fly ruling at the time of the session and have no intention of going back but I think this is something that is ambiguously worded and would like an official ruling or statement of how the rules were intended.
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
Casting Spells while Pinned: The only spells which can be cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.
Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced "coo day grahs") to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can't deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to "find" the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
Thank you
No. You can only coup de grace a Helpless opponent. Nothing in the Pinned condition causes the Pinned creature to become Helpless.
The Pinned Condition in no way applies or encompasses the Helpless Condition.
Using the Tie-Up action, however, via a grapple would apply the Helpless Condition.
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Actually, the tie-up does not apply helpless, it's a pinned until you escape.
If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
Actually, the tie-up does not apply helpless, it's a pinned until you escape.
If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
Depends on your definition of "bound" and the notion of potentially having a 0% chance to escape from the bonds based on the DC , being "completely at their mercy", but I understand you're are going by RAW for the Tied-Up Condition.
While you're in the right and I would not argue your position at a table during play, virtually every PFS table and home group I have sat with has applied the Helpless Condition upon a target being Tied-Up, while I have not come across ANY instance of target being subjected to a CdG from simply having the Pinned Condition.
Helpless
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.
Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.
"Bound" is a bit of wording which makes sense at first glance and yet doesn't get qualified in the rules in much detail.
While it'd be nice to have full details on how/when a "bound" creature is or isn't "helpless", it seems more a matter of leaving that up to the DM to decide on a case-by-case basis is the simplest way to go.
Still, I do agree that if someone can't succeed in freeing themselves even on a 20, that pretty much fulfills the "at an opponent's mercy" clause.
No to the CDG (i am not even sure there is a CDG command for trained animals?) but just hitting him til he is dead is fine. Remember that folks that assist on maneuvers provoke unless they Can do the maneuvre without provoking.
I think what it comes down to is the fact the being "bound" can have massively varying degrees of meaning. You can be "bound" by someone placing you in a bear hug (grappled) or be "bound" by having your wrists tied together (tied up) or you can be "bound" by being buried to your neck in cement (tied up? paralyzed? helpless?). Some of these degrees of being "bound" would logically leave you "helpless" others would not at all leave you "helpless". For this reason I do not like the idea of deciding this situation based on such an ambiguous term that is not defined in the context of the game rules.
With spells there is a ruling or rule (cant remember which or from where) that says that if a spell does not specifically state that it does something, it doesn't. This was (presumably) to fix a lot of the loopholes found in rules in the 3.5 variant. I am inclined to carry over that same logic to this and similar situations with non-spell actions, if it is explicitly stated, it isn't. Pinned does not say helpless, therefore...it isn't.
These are my personal feelings on the matter, but I am by no means an expert and do not know every rule from every book or every FAQ and ruling that has ever been officially made. I do know, however, that this is an ongoing (and very heated) debate in my group and I am sure others have encountered this dilemma.
For these reasons I would love to have an official ruling on this matter as this pin/Coup de Grace combo has been exploited a few times in our game. The most notable example allowed a 4th level Hunter PC to defeat 2 back to back CL5 encounters single handily (the second encounter literately started the round after the first was defeated).
This very question just got debated here; http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2samx?Coup-De-Grace
This very question just got debated here; http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2samx?Coup-De-Grace
Thank you, I have read similar threads but somehow had not found this one. However, we have been debating this ourselves and clearly others have been doing the same, that was not the intention of this post.
Clearly, based on the number of responses to the thread linked, I am not the only one who would like this decided.
Bound is not helpless.
Well, yeah - that's what I meant when I said "DM decides on a case-by-case basis".
Some characters need be only shackled on their hands and feat to be Helpless.
James Bond could be completely bound by Adamant chains from head to toe and he'd STILL manage to figure a way out of it.
Personally, I feel allowing a CdC on a pin would be quite powerful, but would allow it on someone who is 'Tied-Up'. It is true one can still attempt to escape that condition, but that does not mean they are in any position to defend themselves while bound.
Now, if we look at this realistically (crazy I know) then someone could be CdC'd simply by being pinned. I mean, just look at a guillotine; someone placed into one would be considered bound and still have the opportunity for an escape, but that is clearly a CdC.
FaelynI agree CDC on a pin is quite powerful,
But the question isn't power, it is it allowed by rules
As for the power that is where a DM comes in and adjusts or makes a call. and for say a party of 4 all jump on one enemy, to grapple and pin, then one attempts a CdC. a party of 4 taking 3 rounds to kill an enemy isn't that op, its an option if they cant overcome damage reduction, as for dealing with OP, that is where the DM has to adjust, or make decisions on what is best for the game.
I understand the question, but was tossing around my views on why it may go one way or the other with an official ruling. I suppose I should recant my statement in that I would allow a CdC with the pinned condition using an example like you mentioned. I feel that an official ruling will disallow GM discretion in PFS games.
Sometimes it is best left ambiguous and allow GM discretion.
under actions Coup de grace is listed as a full round action
Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The “start full-round action” standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can't use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.That's only if you don't have a full action available to you. Coup de grace is listed in the same category as full attack action, charge, and withdraw, which are all competed on your turn.
The pinned character would not get a chance to escape.
Actually they get the opportunity to escape the grapple... And then an opportunity to escape the Pin. The only time the grappled would not is if he is pinned adjacent to another PC... Which would require perfect positioning and initiative order to work in only two rounds. Just look at Slumber witches... Unlimited Slumber Hexes can kill someone in one round. Gaining the pinned condition takes at least two...
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Tied up is treated as a pin, not as helpless. When pinned, you are not treated as having a Dex 0. Even if tied up, it's still possible to try to squirm away from an incoming blow, negating the CDG. You are still likely to die from a round of Full Attacks if you are tied up, as you have a -4 or more to AC.
Even still, you can still cast spells as while pinned, you can use SLAs, you can take actions.
Tied up is treated as a pin, not as helpless. When pinned, you are not treated as having a Dex 0. Even if tied up, it's still possible to try to squirm away from an incoming blow, negating the CDG. You are still likely to die from a round of Full Attacks if you are tied up, as you have a -4 or more to AC.
Even still, you can still cast spells as while pinned, you can use SLAs, you can take actions.
I submit that you cannot. Have someone tie you up and then try to squirm out of the way while someone hits you with a bat... Doesn't work out well.
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I submit that you cannot. Have someone tie you up and then try to squirm out of the way while someone hits you with a bat... Doesn't work out well.Tied up is treated as a pin, not as helpless. When pinned, you are not treated as having a Dex 0. Even if tied up, it's still possible to try to squirm away from an incoming blow, negating the CDG. You are still likely to die from a round of Full Attacks if you are tied up, as you have a -4 or more to AC.
Even still, you can still cast spells as while pinned, you can use SLAs, you can take actions.
That is the denial of Dex to AC and an additional -4 on top of that. You can still move your body, even if that movement is restricted.
I have practiced self defense while handcuffed and while zip-stripped at the ankles. It's still possible to escape and to dodge an attack when your mobility is limited.
Granted, you are in a bad situation, and are likely going to loose. You are going to get hurt, and maybe killed if you are in that situation. But that doesn't mean you need to just sit there and wait for the Coup de Grace.
I feel that at that point if a char A, Pins char B, char B would be helpless till char be breaks pin,I base this off of the many forms of Martial arts and wrestling ( real wrestling not wwe ) Pin is where you have placed your opponent in a hold that they can no longer defend ones self,
Ok, if we apply real world logic and mechanics into this then the whole system is broken. Lets say a fighter in the UFC moves in for a grapple/pin and the opponent pulls out a dagger and stabs him, he isn't grappling anyone and is probably on his way to the hospital. Does this then mean that in Pathfinder if someone is stabbed they cant grapple? Do they even take penalties? No and No. This is a fantasy game and, much like with movies, requires a certain suspension of disbelief and remembering that it is NOT REAL. Similarly, in the real world if you fall 30 ft. with 100lbs of equipment on your back you will break (probably several) bones and be SEVERELY limited on how well you could fight or defend yourself. In pathfinder a fall of 30ft would result in 3d6 damage and (and assuming this does not kill you) still be fully capable of getting up and defending yourself or beating the crap out of the guy that pushed you in that hole. Please remember that this IS A GAME!
I think should be looked at from a balancing viewpoint. The Coup de Gras is an extremely powerful mechanic that can very quickly kill a creature with little to no chance of the victim resisting it, for this reason it is intentionally (and should be) very difficult to pull off in normal combat. If a party could work together (with very little effort to maximize) to grapple/pin/Coup de Gras and kill most enemies within 2 rounds. In a 4 man party have 3 people aid the first in grappling the guy. If he attacks in the grapple move to pin on the next round. If he escapes, grapple him again on the next round. Once he is pinned have 2 of the 3 extra characters aid with CMD so he cant escape while the 3rd (probably the rogue) lay down a Coup de Gras leading to a potentially impossible FORT save to not die regardless of remaining health. By this logic the opponent has very few options and nearly no chance of escape unless he is much larger or MUCH more powerful that the group. As mentioned before, this could even be done by one character with multiple comanions/cohorts. This can quickly become game breaking and HUGELY unbalanced, so therefore doesn't make much sense.
In the situation of being tied up, I would agree with:
trying to define bound as a condition is almost impossible, and that is why you need and experienced DM to make the call on it. I for one don't consider a person who is in shackles helpless, but a person who is hog tied, i would, even if they can wiggle they cant defend them self's,
(who clearly fumbled his linguistics roll.)
If a party makes the appropriate effort to tie up and secure an opponent in such a way that he is rendered entirely unable to defend himself then they would be helpless and eligible for a Coup de Gras (though this might bring up questions of morality in the group as they are killing a bound helpless prisoner). But this would likely occur outside of combat after the fighting has subsided.
By the rules "tied up" is a more severe form of "pinned" but this relationship is one way. If your "tied up" then you are also "pinned" but being "pinned" does not necessarily mean that your "tied up". "Pinned" does not make you helpless, but "tied up" could in some cases make you helpless.
This is going to be a never-ending debate I fear and so I once again request (and even beg for) an official ruling.
As far as I am concerned, the fight is already over so what does it matter? If you have a guy grappled, then pinned, surrounded by able enemies and for all intents and purposes he is unable to do anything but lie there and wait to die, well, I call that a win. Start handing out XP because this fight is over.
In which case, it no longer matters whether you kill him (Coup de Grace or not) and loot him, or loot him and then let him go, or tar-and-feather him, or break out the tea bags, or put a wedding ring on his finger and announce that he is your husband now, or whatever you want to do - the fight is over.
But, for the rules:
RAW has no clear definition of "bound". Heck, when I got in my car and drove to Albuquerque, I was "bound" for Albuquerque but I was far from helpless...
I think I'm "bound" to think of a few more non-helpless English definitions of the word "bound"...
So how to resolve this use of a non-game-term in the definition of the Helpless condition?
Simple, really. You (almost) ignore it.
"What?" you shout defiantly. That's right, ignore it. Almost. By that I mean that "Tied Up" (grapple rules) is NOT "helpless"; I think we can all agree on this point because it has specific rules saying it is "pinned" and we know that "pinned" is not "helpless". So "tied up" has specific rules and is not "helpless".
Also, the "Helpless" condition is pretty clear that to apply this condition, the person must be, well, helpless. Unable to do ANYTHING to defend himself. Period. "Tied Up" still allows a person to wiggle and squirm and try to avoid damage. Badly, but they can do it. Ergo, not "helpless".
But the "Helpless" condition mentions "bound". So what? What if we ignore that? What would happen? We would still have a "Helpless" condition that says what to do when a person cannot defend themselves AT ALL. And we still have "Tied Up" that says they can defend themselves, at least a little. Not the same.
And if you get a guy, drag him to a tree, and tie him to it with 200' of rope until he looks like a mummy in a rope cocoon and he cannot even blink, let alone defend himself, I'm pretty sure ANY GM would say that guy is "Helpless".
This is what "bound" means in the "Helpless" condition: tied with so much rope that the guy literally cannot do anything defensively. That takes a lot more rope and a lot more effort and a lot more time than what you do in a 6-second round when you're grappling/pinning someone.
But if you put in that time and that effort, and you use that much rope, your GM is definitely going to agree that the guy is helpless - which is why we don't even need the word "bound" in the definition.
TL;dr: just see the part I bolded.
Actually they get the opportunity to escape the grapple... And then an opportunity to escape the Pin. The only time the grappled would not is if he is pinned adjacent to another PC... Which would require perfect positioning and initiative order to work in only two rounds. Just look at Slumber witches... Unlimited Slumber Hexes can kill someone in one round. Gaining the pinned condition takes at least two...No, not necessarily. There are feats that could accomplish a pinned maneuver in one round, and it doesn't take 'perfect' positioning, an ally still gets a 5' step + his full round action. Two allies close in the initiative order could pull this off fairly easily, if the person built the right grappling build (Greater + Rapid grapple).
Not sure if comparing it to slumber hexes is the best argument for not being overpowered.
Even with Greater and Rapid Grapple it still takes two rounds to pin. It is a standard action to initiate a grapple (Round 1), you cannot do anything further this round. Round 2 you roll to maintain your grapple and can do three grapple actions with the aforementioned feats. Greater Grapple specifically mentions maintaining a grapple, which is diferent than initiating one.
I submit that you cannot. Have someone tie you up and then try to squirm out of the way while someone hits you with a bat... Doesn't work out well.Tied up is treated as a pin, not as helpless. When pinned, you are not treated as having a Dex 0. Even if tied up, it's still possible to try to squirm away from an incoming blow, negating the CDG. You are still likely to die from a round of Full Attacks if you are tied up, as you have a -4 or more to AC.
Even still, you can still cast spells as while pinned, you can use SLAs, you can take actions.
That is the denial of Dex to AC and an additional -4 on top of that. You can still move your body, even if that movement is restricted.
I have practiced self defense while handcuffed and while zip-stripped at the ankles. It's still possible to escape and to dodge an attack when your mobility is limited.
Granted, you are in a bad situation, and are likely going to loose. You are going to get hurt, and maybe killed if you are in that situation. But that doesn't mean you need to just sit there and wait for the Coup de Grace.
Except what you are describing is not being Tied Up, as per the rules. You are describing being manacled and fettered (think chain gang). There are rules for that, including actions you can take while in this condition, including moving and some standards. Tied Up, and by extension Pinned, is meant to be something different than just having your hands tied behind your back.
Also, you have made the assumption that a Coup de Grace is just someone swinging their weapon. In reality, it is more like the criical finishes from Witcher, or Assassins Creed, where you take the time to line up the perfect use of your weapon to try and kill them. You can do this because they cannot effectively fight back. Note 'effectively'. Yes you can squirm, yes you can bend at the middle, but in the end of it, if the guy with the sword grabs you by the hair and sticks...
Exactly. Being restrained is very different than being hog-tied, which is what I always assumed the Tie-Up condition to represent.
What do we have to do to get an official ruling on this matter?
Is the question not clearly defined in the title? Can I get some FAQ requests please?
Ozy, that's not how the grapple rules work. There's a really awesome flow chart on www.d20pfsrd.com that indicates the path for grappling. Plus, I believe there is also a ruling from the Devs somewhere that indicates you cannot pin in one round. I do not have the ability to search for it right now as I'm on my phone.
I stand corrected. I clearly got my information mixed up, Ozy. Thank you for linking that post by James. I had interpreted it as initiating a grapple was its own action and then maintaining it was a completely different action; hence why I believed Greater/Rapid Grapple to only apply on subsequent rounds following the initiation of the grapple.
This would seem to be one of those situations where specific wording does not follow the language in the grappling rules.
I have a draft of a grappling FAQ blog out there to clear up everything that I found surprising (plus explain the parts that the expert players and GMs already know but are confusing to others)
Anyone know where to find this? Is it done?